Nine changes I'd like to see

Bob said Logos wants to prioritize Bible study as the main purpose of L4. Great!

Here are a few changes that would make Bible study easier for me. I'm putting them in the order I would prioritize changes, given the way I study the Bible.

1. Re-implement navigating through parallel resources (Bibles, commentaries, lexicons, etc.) with the right/left arrow keys. This one is huge for me as it's one of the easiest ways to review information in similar resources.

2. I'm finding the way that resource synchronization works is clumsy. This is especially noticeable with a Greek interlinear and a (plain) English Bible. Open an English Bible to a chosen text and the text shows up in the middle of the screen (I like that!). Sync it to set A. Open a Greek Interlinear (e.g. NA27 Grammcord w/ McReynolds), then synchronize it to set A. The NA27 puts the active verse at the top (not middle) of the screen. Now, in the English Bible scroll down. The Greek Bible jumps back to a verse near the top of the screen. This is not a helpful Bible study tool at all. Either change the focus of the verse to the center of the page, or change the way Bibles open.

3. Related to this is navigating parallel resources once both English and Greek are oriented to the top of the page. It's almost impossible to get the English version to display the verse you want to see in the Greek Bible without typing it in the navigation box. But then scrolling down messes up the synchronization again. This gets really frustrating after a while. Double-clicking on an English word will also synchronize the Greek, but also opens a dictionary. On-going ease of synchronization, while reading in English (or Greek) is a must.

4. Change the focus of the right-click menu on the Greek Interlinear (NA27 Grammcord/McReynolds) from the English gloss to the Greek surface text. Now the only way to the right-click menu is to right click on the English gloss. This is just wrong. Fix this please!

5. Allow scrolling with a middle-wheel click, as in most other windows programs (including LDLS). This is my preferred way to read a lengthy article. Rotating the middle wheel works, but interrupts the reading process (at least for me).

6. Create a "open to last layout" on reopening option. This helps me start right where I left off last time.

7. Allow selection of the information displayed in the NA27 Grammcord w/ McReynolds interlinear. All I want to see is the Greek and the English gloss. The rest I can get, if I want it, by hovering the mouse, or right clicking.

8. Get rid of the "Close" menu item on the resource settings dialog (by left-clicking on the book icon on the upper left of the resource tab). I don't know how many times I tried closing the dialog by clicking "Close" and ended up closing the resource instead. Or, re-purpose the close option to close the dialog. Or, rename it to "Close this resource."

9. I never regularly used the home page in L3. But the home page in L4 seems even less useful -- particularly for Bible study. It looks like a messy collection of unrelated blog material. It invites me more into distraction than to study. Thank you for letting me start L4 without seeing it. Maybe it needs some re-thinking to bring your first impression in line with your primary purpose.

These are some things I would like to see for myself. I'm not suggesting these would be the best for Logos, or for most users. I'm not complaining (except for the way synchronization works), only suggesting some things that would make it easier for me to do Bible study.

If others contribute to this thread please refrain from pontificating about what users 'really' want. We don't really know -- we haven't done any kind of survey. Just talk about what you want.

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Jacob Carpenter (Faithlife)

1. Re-implement navigating through parallel resources (Bibles, commentaries, lexicons, etc.) with the right/left arrow keys. This one is huge for me as it's one of the easiest ways to review information in similar resources.

Sorry, perhaps you've already posted this elsewhere. What about the current left/right arrow key parallel function is insufficient for you?

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/10396#Comment_10396

Sorry, perhaps you've already posted this elsewhere. What about the current left/right arrow key parallel function is insufficient for you?

I am not able to navigate through parallel resources as expected with the right/left arrow keys. Sometimes they keys do nothing, but other times, they do what I don't want them to.

BIBLES:

If I'm in the NIV and hit the left arrow key, nothing happens (initially). If I hit the right arrow key, I jump to the ESV RevInt, but to the next pericope (not the current location). The next one is the AGNT, then the Byz, then the Lexham English Bible, etc. This doesn't make any sense. BTW, if I navigate back to the NIV, I still can't use the left arrow key to navigate anywhere.

Oddly, If I open the ESV I can navigate to the NIV with the left arrow key. I suspect that this is because these are my only prioritized Bibles.

I would expect to navigate through English Bibles only. If I keep going, eventually, the right arrow key will stop working (it won't cycle back to the NIV), and several Bibles I know I have did not display at all.

COMMENTARIES:

With commentaries, the left arrow doesn't do anything initially, then cycles through commentaries alphabetically, but seems to stall for resources that require side scrolling. Clicking on the resource after scrolling as far right as possible, allows resuming with the right arrow key. The navigation stops at the end of the alphabetical list (Wuest's Word Studies... for me).

LEXICONS:

Lexicons sometimes don't do anything, no matter how which arrow keys I hit, or how loud I yell. ;-). Sometimes I will navigate to another lexicon (but only one). Sometimes it will navigate (from the BDAG) to ISBE (1915 ed.), and change the navigation topic from Greek to English! Clicking the left arrow returns to BDAG, but the English gloss is maintained, and the entry is changed to a different word. (This is totally unacceptable.) Steps for that last one: 1)Open Greek Bible to Eph 4:14. 2) Double-click on didaskalias (greek - but click on the English gloss 'teaching' in the interlinear). 3) On my system BDAG opens and the article on didaskalia and didaskalia is displayed in the navigation box. 4) Press the left arrow: nothing happens. 5) Press the right arrow: ISBE (1915) opens to an article called "Instruction." 6) Panic, say "Oh, no! I must have done something wrong!" then press the left arrow key again. 7) BDAG opens to the article aggelia and the topic box says "directive." NOTE: If I use the mouse to click on the arrows in the upper right of the tab pane, I can get back to the original article in BGAD (though it always opens to the title page of the current resource first?). (Please note that the BDAG is the only lexicon I have prioritized. I hope I don't have to prioritize all my lexicons to navigate through them -- if everything is prioritized then nothing is prioritized, right?)

Wyn Laidig

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/10396#Comment_10396

What about the current left/right
arrow key parallel function is insufficient for you?

I totally
agree with all of Jacob's concerns. And his number one is also my number
one. I love v3 and it's ability to let me define my PRAs so I can
left/right arrow through my associated resources. It is very hard to do
that in v4 because keylinks and PRAs are really merged together into
"prioritized resources", and that is just not sufficient.

In V4 Beta, we have no idea how to keep track of what is
linked to what, and how to view quickly the options for a given Data Type.
Although we can use the advanced link to prioritize according to data type, it
is very impracticle to use when you want to modify things. You have no
way of looking at the prioritized list for a given data type, other than
looking at the properties associated with each resource. SUGGESTION: It
would be nice to have the OPTION of separating the priortized list according to
data type, so we could then see at a glance how each data type is prioritized.

We really need PRAs as separate from keylinks. We need the
flexibility to determine these ourselves. Just having Equivalent Resources
chosen by data type from within v4’s “priorized list” doesn’t cut it. PRA’s are
very powerful and absolutely need to be included. Being able to use just
one click and “arrow” through all the equivalent resources (as I define them)
is very powerful. For example, I associate all my commentaries into a PRA
for each book of the Bible, then I can “arrow” through the list and see
immediate commentary on a particular verse, with all the commentary resources I
have associated with that particular book of the Bible. This is an extremely
time-saving capability that I don't want to live without.

Jacob Carpenter (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/10420#Comment_10420

Thanks for the clear problem description(s).

Bibles

If I'm in the NIV and hit the left arrow key, nothing happens (initially).

The 4.0 parallel navigation does not currently wrap-around. That is, if the NIV is your top prioritized bible, hitting left doesn't do anything since you're already at the top of the list. The full list can be seen by clicking the "+" button next to the resource's title in the tab list

I would expect to navigate through English Bibles only.

That is a totally reasonable expectation. The current design is to show everything that matches your current resource's type.

Other than being "different" and "unexpected", is there a reason that this will not work for you? Ideally you will have prioritized your library so that once you start hitting books that you know you don't care about, you can just stop looking at parallels.

If I keep going, eventually, the right arrow key will stop working (it won't cycle back to the NIV),

Again, parallel resources in 4.0 do not currently wrap.

and several Bibles I know I have did not display at all.

That is a bit troubling. Can you be specific about which Bibles were skipped?

Commentaries

Again, the parallel function in 4.0 doesn't wrap. I'm actually surprised that once you hit your top commentary, your impression is that the left arrow actually does something.

but seems to stall for resources that require side scrolling. Clicking on the resource after scrolling as far right as possible, allows resuming with the right arrow key.

This sounds like a nice, subtle bug. I'll make sure it's in our tracker.

Lexicons

Lexicons sometimes don't do anything, no matter how which arrow keys I hit, or how loud I yell. ;-).

Can you give a specific example of a resource and entry combo that doesn't work?

Sometimes it will navigate (from the BDAG) to ISBE (1915 ed.), and change the navigation topic from Greek to English!

This is totally a bug. Unfortunately the fix won't make Beta 2.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/10460#Comment_10460

The 4.0 parallel navigation does not currently wrap-around.

[sigh] I'm disappointed. I liked wrapping around back to where I was when I started (a lot easier than nine-bazillion left arrows - not that I would exaggerate).

Ideally you will have prioritized your library..

I haven't done much with prioritization, preferring (up to this point) to see how L4 works right out of the box -- as I suspect most 1st time users will. The only things I have prioritized are the NIV, the ESV, and BDAG. I now understand the connection between preferred resources and the arrow keys, but this is far from obvious - until someone tells me, of course.

That is a bit troubling. Can you be specific about which Bibles were skipped?

Yes. Scrolling stopped after reaching the end of the alphabetical listing (Youngs Literal in my case), but in the list generated by pressing the "+" as you suggest, there are 17 resources listed after Youngs Literal, including 3 Bibles I was looking for (NASB95, NRSV and the RVA1960). I guess I need to prioritize them. (It would be cool to be able to do that from this screen!)

I'm actually surprised that once you hit your top commentary, your impression is that the left arrow actually does something.

What I meant to say was that the left arrow does work after I've pressed the right arrow (but it won't navigate left past the initial open resource, since I don't have any commentaries prioritized).

Can you give a specific example of a resource and entry combo that doesn't work?

Sure. From Ephesians 4:14, double click in the NA27 (Grammcord w/ McReynolds) on kludomidzominoi (actually click on the English gloss: 'being tossed by waves'). This opens BDAG to that article. Right arrow does nothing. (Note: BDAG is the only lexicon I have prioritized.) I tried yelling even louder this time, and pressing the keys more and harder - but it still didn't work. ;-)

But I just discovered that if I hit the "+" button and open another resource (which opens in a new tab - I like that!), I can navigate with the arrow keys to and from the BDAG!

Hope this is all clear.

Jacob Carpenter (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/10472#Comment_10472

We were able to sneak in some last minute changes into Beta 2 for parallel resource navigation.

You certainly helped identify a big root issue with the Beta 1 implementation (it all has to do with multiple milestones at one article). Thanks.

Let's reset this discussion once you have Beta 2 bits to play with.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/10572#Comment_10572

We were able to sneak in some last minute changes into Beta 2 for parallel resource navigation.
You certainly helped identify a big root issue with the Beta 1 implementation (it all has to do with multiple milestones at one article). Thanks.

Let's reset this discussion once you have Beta 2 bits to play with.

Glad expressing my frustration actually helped. Cool.

Any comment on my other concerns?

Rich DeRuiter

UPDATE:

1. Re-implement navigating through parallel resources (Bibles, commentaries, lexicons, etc.) with the right/left arrow keys. This one is huge for me as it's one of the easiest ways to review information in similar resources.

Partially resolved by prioritizing more Bibles. Still no cycling all the way around. Still no way to exclude Greek, Aramaic, Peshita, etc. from the list.

2. I'm finding the way that resource synchronization works is clumsy. This is especially noticeable with a Greek interlinear and a (plain) English Bible. Open an English Bible to a chosen text and the text shows up in the middle of the screen (I like that!). Sync it to set A. Open a Greek Interlinear (e.g. NA27 Grammcord w/ McReynolds), then synchronize it to set A. The NA27 puts the active verse at the top (not middle) of the screen. Now, in the English Bible scroll down. The Greek Bible jumps back to a verse near the top of the screen. This is not a helpful Bible study tool at all. Either change the focus of the verse to the center of the page, or change the way Bibles open.

3. Related to this is navigating parallel resources once both English and Greek are oriented to the top of the page. It's almost impossible to get the English version to display the verse you want to see in the Greek Bible without typing it in the navigation box. But then scrolling down messes up the synchronization again. This gets really frustrating after a while. Double-clicking on an English word will also synchronize the Greek, but also opens a dictionary. On-going ease of synchronization, while reading in English (or Greek) is a must.

No change in Beta 2.

4. Change the focus of the right-click menu on the Greek Interlinear (NA27 Grammcord/McReynolds) from the English gloss to the Greek surface text. Now the only way to the right-click menu is to right click on the English gloss. This is just wrong. Fix this please!

No change in Beta 2.

5. Allow scrolling with a middle-wheel click, as in most other windows programs (including LDLS). This is my preferred way to read a lengthy article. Rotating the middle wheel works, but interrupts the reading process (at least for me).

No change in Beta 2. Scrolling in a time-line (only - as far as I know) increases/decreases font size.

6. Create a "open to last layout" on reopening option. This helps me start right where I left off last time.

No change in Beta 2. I'm thinking of moving this one up on my priority list.

7. Allow selection of the information displayed in the NA27 Grammcord w/ McReynolds interlinear. All I want to see is the Greek and the English gloss. The rest I can get, if I want it, by hovering the mouse, or right clicking.

No change in Beta 2.

8. Get rid of the "Close" menu item on the resource settings dialog (by left-clicking on the book icon on the upper left of the resource tab). I don't know how many times I tried closing the dialog by clicking "Close" and ended up closing the resource instead. Or, re-purpose the close option to close the dialog. Or, rename it to "Close this resource."

No change in Beta 2. At least I'm not doing that as much any more.

9. I never regularly used the home page in L3. But the home page in L4 seems even less useful -- particularly for Bible study. It looks like a messy collection of unrelated blog material. It invites me more into distraction than to study. Thank you for letting me start L4 without seeing it. Maybe it needs some re-thinking to bring your first impression in line with your primary purpose.

I read some indications that changes are coming to the home page. Cool! No change in Beta 2.

In re-submitting these, I'm not trying to appear ornery. I just want to keep asking for changes that I, personally, would still like to see.