THEOLOGY GUIDE NEEDS WORK
Attn: Faithlife Staff
I’ve posted in various threads on this before, but I think it deserves its own now.
Logos 8 was rushed out the door at the end of October, 2018. One of the prominent new features advertised for it was the Theology Guide, for which you claim:
[quote]Get diverse perspectives on theological topics
The theology guide draws on the diverse theological resources included in your Logos library. Get quick links to where your topic is treated in your systematic theologies and other resources.
https://www.logos.com/theology-guide
In reality, it does nothing of the sort. To date (January 21, 2019) only 5 very conservative North American theologies are searchable with the Guide. I have 124 resources in my library tagged as “Systematic Theologies”; the Guide does nothing to help me navigate them (unless they’re listed in the extremely random bibliographies of the LSTO). And frankly, while it’s reasonable to initially work with clearly structured and better-selling theologies, no one should need a tool like this just to navigate a work like Berkhof’s.
Christmas is a busy time for everyone in our line of work, so I gave some allowances for the holiday slowing work down. I was very disappointed to see that the update to the datasets released today did not include any enhancement to the one behind this tool (at least not in English!)
Faithlife, we know how you operate; no one is expecting a complete, fully polished product at the rollout of a new version. This, however, goes well beyond “we need a little more time to work out all the bugs and finish all the features.” The Theology Guide can only be described as barely started and not really useful for anyone other than a beginner in the field.
This is unacceptable. Upgraders have already paid this feature, but it has not been released in a state that can reasonably be considered functional. We need to see steady and regular development taking place and not just assurances that it will happen “someday”.
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Comments
- Are there works of Moltmann currently classified as monographs that should be classified as systematic theology? If so, ask that they be changed and appropriately tagged. Ask both in the forums and Roadmap | Faithlife Feedback
- Start nagging ... periodically ask why resource x is missing from the results of the Theological Guide on topic X and/or start asking that Kyle provide a list of items indexed since the post I quoted above.
I rarely, if ever, voice my disappointments about Logos, but I must agree here. I had hoped to see much improvement with this feature. Hopefully they are working on this behind the scenes and just have not made us aware of that yet. One can only hope.
Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College
Kingdom of God/Heaven within this also is a disappointment - it is assumed to be eschatological only - when there is a consider body of opinion that has it being announced with Christ, presaged in this age and only coming to fulfilment in the future.
Shalom
I'm not sure exactly what the complaint is here. The 'already' aspect of the kingdom wouldn't make it not-eschatological, would it? The recommended readings suggest Scot McKnight, Geerhardus Vos, Herman Ridderbos, etc. Who or what perspective would you like to see?
Potato resting atop 2020 Mac Pro stand.
Probably the weakness of systematic theology to give a topic a primary home - rather simplifying the structure typical of 'systematics'. Theology is always far more nuanced that that. I am not arguing for it not be eschatological - it is not to be categorised 'beneath' eschatological' which strongly implies it is ALL future.
Shalom
Kingdom of God/Heaven within this also is a disappointment - it is assumed to be eschatological only - when there is a consider body of opinion that has it being announced with Christ, presaged in this age and only coming to fulfilment in the future.
Shalom
While the article does say "The eschatological dimension of the kingdom is prominent in the New Testament.", I believe it also addresses the current presence of the Kingdom: "On the most basic level, we may say the kingdom of God is present wherever the king is to be found." As a survey, the treatment of the different dimensions of each subject are necessarily brief.
If you have other suggestions for how to improve the coverage of this article, I would encourage you to share them on the Faithlife group we've created for discussion of the content of the survey: https://beta.faithlife.com/lexham-survey-of-theology/activity.
I'm sorry our Theology Guide coverage hasn't increased more quickly. As mentioned here and here, we're committed to eventually indexing the widest possible selection of systematic theology resources in Logos. The process we used for curating the initial set of resources won't scale well to this many resources, so we've had to step back and build some new tooling to help. I'm hopeful that we'll see additional resources aligned in the next month or two.
... The process we used for curating the initial set of resources won't scale well to this many resources, so we've had to step back and build some new tooling to help. I'm hopeful that we'll see additional resources aligned in the next month or two.
Goodness, the forum has always been a theological hornets nest. This is not going to be pretty.
I wonder if the 'tooling' is what Bob talked about using high-end discussion-locating.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
I'm sorry our Theology Guide coverage hasn't increased more quickly. As mentioned here and here, we're committed to eventually indexing the widest possible selection of systematic theology resources in Logos. The process we used for curating the initial set of resources won't scale well to this many resources, so we've had to step back and build some new tooling to help. I'm hopeful that we'll see additional resources aligned in the next month or two.
I hope that you're able to develop tools and processes that help you do this quickly. Really, though, as a business you need to stop advertising and selling products in such an unfinished state. You know many of us are locked into Logos as our primary Bible study/research tool. We're not really left with any option but to sit back and wait X number of months/years until the product eventually does what it was initially advertised as doing.
Please accelerate this process.
Please accelerate this process.
As someone who reports far more than my fair share of data errors and anomalies, I strongly disagree. I want them to take the time to do it right rather than rush it through with their usual "good enough for what it's for" approach. Mind you, I know they use machine assistance to strictly machine coding so I do not expect perfection. Depending upon what is being coded, I expect accuracy within the mid-to-high ninety percents and a recognizable pattern in the errors. I am disappointed that they didn't find and report the scaling problem earlier.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
yeah I'd like to weigh in here.
Absolutely the Theo/Guide needs works. I can do a better search with out it. However, and for me this is the Big However. All three of the theological, Bible theme and Topical Sermon Workflows are outstanding.
Where were these before?!
FL? Fantastic job on the WF's mentioned above. Thanks.
Now on to a better (?) Theo/Guide as Sean B has mentioned.
mm.
Faithlife, we know how you operate; no one is expecting a complete, fully polished product at the rollout of a new version.
I've decided the name, "Faithlife" was chosen because that's what the customer needs to stay engaged...a lot of 'faith' in their 'life' that the programmers will eventually deliver on what the marketing people promised.
I will disagree with you on one point: On the contrary, I *do* expect a complete, or almost complete, product at rollout. That's very different from, 'just started.' Part of the problem we have is our patient willingness to put up with so-called vaporware in terms of promised features. If we (customers) weren't so willing to tolerate it, the company would be forced to change or it wouldn't sell any product.
This approach has been too consistent to expect it to change, and it isn't the fault of the good folks doing the grunt work; it is a management philosophy issue. All we can do is make sure prospective buyers are aware of what they are getting in to, which I now do. As another post noted, we are locked in...we can either throw our invested money away or keep dealing with unmet expectations from the marketing hype.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
This approach has been too consistent to expect it to change, and it isn't the fault of the good folks doing the grunt work; it is a management philosophy issue. All we can do is make sure prospective buyers are aware of what they are getting in to, which I now do. As another post noted, we are locked in...we can either throw our invested money away or keep dealing with unmet expectations from the marketing hype.
I think I have L8, but I'm on L7 until I decide I need a new computer. But, it's interesting to be presented on L7 with 'this still doesn't work' and 'that doesn't work'. And I'm fully confident my (?) L8 has the same issues.
But, I do wonder ... no offense meant to FL. But the individuals have to know that deliverables are not there. As noted, pretty consistently. No word to decently honest customers (not me, of course). I'd be uncomfortable in that situation.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
This is just coming to my attention, and I'd like to apologize for how we did a poor job of setting your expectations for what to expect with the Theology Guide. The priority was to deliver the ST dataset, survey resource, and media, knowing that we'd not deliver the alignment with the full ST catalog that we or our users ultimately want. But we didn't have the capacity to do both. Somewhere internally there was a miscommunication or misunderstanding between the people who built the Theology Guide and the people who described it on the website. We didn't do a good enough job reviewing the materials to make sure they accurately reflected the state of things as they were at launch rather than what we'd like them to be in the future. This was not an attempt to mislead but a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing. I'm sorry for that.
I'm working with the teams to revise the communication to make sure it's accurate and sets the right expectations for users and to make sure we have better systems in place to catch these kinds of things before they make it outside the building in the future.
I'm also working to accelerate alignment for the rest of our ST catalog. We did the first small batch internally. Our external team is now trained and beginning to work through the long list of STs. We should have many more showing up within a month or so, if all goes according to plan.
I'm sorry for how we failed to communicate well and set your expectations for what to expect and for the slow progress in getting more STs aligned.
This is just coming to my attention, and I'd like to apologize for how we did a poor job of setting your expectations for what to expect with the Theology Guide. The priority was to deliver the ST dataset, survey resource, and media, knowing that we'd not deliver the alignment with the full ST catalog that we or our users ultimately want. But we didn't have the capacity to do both. Somewhere internally there was a miscommunication or misunderstanding between the people who built the Theology Guide and the people who described it on the website. We didn't do a good enough job reviewing the materials to make sure they accurately reflected the state of things as they were at launch rather than what we'd like them to be in the future. This was not an attempt to mislead but a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing. I'm sorry for that.
I'm working with the teams to revise the communication to make sure it's accurate and sets the right expectations for users and to make sure we have better systems in place to catch these kinds of things before they make it outside the building in the future.
I'm also working to accelerate alignment for the rest of our ST catalog. We did the first small batch internally. Our external team is now trained and beginning to work through the long list of STs. We should have many more showing up within a month or so, if all goes according to plan.
I'm sorry for how we failed to communicate well and set your expectations for what to expect and for the slow progress in getting more STs aligned.
Thanks for the update Phil. I know you and the team are working hard on MANY aspects of Logos 8 and it has been encouraging to see steady progress. For example, I can now apply my labels again!
Thank you for your humble attitude and transparency when you make a mistake. Keep up the good work my friend.
On Monday, April 1st the LSTO data base will be updated with annotations for an additional 39 resources:
A Contemporary Anabaptist Theology: Biblical, Historical, Constructive (Finger)
A Manual of Catholic Theology: Based on Scheeben’s “Dogmatik”, Vol. I (Wilhelm; Scannell)
A Manual of Catholic Theology: Based on Scheeben’s “Dogmatik”, Vol. II (Wilhelm; Scannell)
Christian Combat; Faith, Hope and Charity (Augustine of Hippo)
Christology: A Dogmatic Treatise on the Incarnation (Pohle)
Creator Spirit (von Balthasar)
Foundations of Systematic Theology (Guarino)
God: The Author of Nature and the Supernatural (Pohle)
Grace, Actual and Habitual: A Dogmatic Treatise (Pohle)
Introduction to Christianity (Revised Edition) (Ratzinger)
Introductory Volume to Systematic Theology (Berkhof)
Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers 2.9
Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers 2.9 (CE)
Outlines of Dogmatic Theology (Hunter)
Saint John of Damascus: Writings
Spirit and Institution (von Balthasar)
Spouse of the Word (von Balthasar)
Summa Doctrinae Christianae, Volume 1 (Canisius)
Summa Doctrinae Christianae, Volume 2 (Canisius)
Systematic Theology (Thiselton)
The Divine Trinity: A Dogmatic Treatise (Pohle)
The Doctrine of God (Bray)
The Doctrine of Humanity (Sherlock)
The Faith of Catholics (James Waterworth and Thomas J. Capel)
The Holy Spirit (Ferguson)
The Sacraments: A Dogmatic Treatise, Volume 1 (Pohle)
The Sacraments: A Dogmatic Treatise, Volume 2 (Pohle)
The Sacraments: A Dogmatic Treatise, Volume 3 (Pohle)
The Sacraments: A Dogmatic Treatise, Volume 4 (Pohle)
The Word Made Flesh (von Balthasar)
Theo-Drama, Volume 1: Prolegomena (von Balthasar)
Theo-Drama, Volume 2: Dramatis Personae: Man in God (von Balthasar)
Theo-Drama, Volume 3: Dramatis Personae: Persons in Christ (von Balthasar)
Theo-Drama, Volume 4: The Action (von Balthasar)
Theo-Drama, Volume 5: The Last Act (von Balthasar)
Theo-Logic, Volume 1: The Truth of the World (von Balthasar)
Theo-Logic, Volume 2: Truth of God (von Balthasar)
Theo-Logic, Volume 3: The Spirit of the Truth (von Balthasar)
Understanding Theology, Volume Three (Kendall)
We've got annotations for another 25 titles that are done but didn't make the cut-off for the update on Monday. I hope to have all of those finalized and part of an update that will go out on Monday, April 15th.
By that time I should have more information about when the rest of the Systematic Theology resource types will be finished. My hunch is that we'll continue to annotate approximately 50-75 resources a month until the project is finished.
Thank you Kyle and team for your diligent work!
Perhaps a question out of ignorance: How do we see the richness that's now being added to the Theology Guide through this tagging work?
From what I can tell (from a cursory look), this additional annotation work primarily enhances the "Systematic Theologies" section of the Theology Guide, and does not enhance the other sections, is that correct?
Is the LST itself being enhanced / expanded as more Systematic Theologies are being parsed?
Peter
Thank you Kyle and team for your diligent work!
Perhaps a question out of ignorance: How do we see the richness that's now being added to the Theology Guide through this tagging work?
From what I can tell (from a cursory look), this additional annotation work primarily enhances the "Systematic Theologies" section of the Theology Guide, and does not enhance the other sections, is that correct?
Is the LST itself being enhanced / expanded as more Systematic Theologies are being parsed?
Peter
You're correct: these additional resources will enhance the Systematic Theologies section of the Theology Guide. We're not currently expanding to new concepts.
Thanks for the work all of you are doing on this. I just finished trying the "Workflow Guide for Exploring Christian Doctrine" based on the article by Dr. Ward in the March/April BSM. I wanted to do comparisons of several doctrines from various denominations. I tried to reference several other Theologies & Dogmatics in my library without success. The only ones that came up seemed to be from a Baptist or Reformed background. I would love to see a way to bring other references from my library into this guide.
Thanks for the work all of you are doing on this. I just finished trying the "Workflow Guide for Exploring Christian Doctrine" based on the article by Dr. Ward in the March/April BSM. I wanted to do comparisons of several doctrines from various denominations. I tried to reference several other Theologies & Dogmatics in my library without success. The only ones that came up seemed to be from a Baptist or Reformed background. I would love to see a way to bring other references from my library into this guide.
Jim:
Our goal is to annotate all the systematic theology resources that Logos publishes so that they're integrated into the Theology Guide. So eventually this will organize the different resources you own against the doctrines covered in the Theology Guide. It will take us some time to reach that goal, however. Also note that we're not currently annotating denominational positions on particular doctrines, though in many cases that will follow from the denominational flavor of the resource as a whole.
Thanks
Rather than continue to post lists of resources that have been annotated I created a new thread to provide that information. You can find it here.
It kind of makes me wonder that I have zero entries on the word "hope"
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
It kind of makes me wonder that I have zero entries on the word "hope"
The Theology Guide generates content only for one of the ~250 topics in the ontology. Hope isn't one of them.
Guide generates content only for one of the ~250 topics in the ontology. Hope isn't one of them.
Thank you Phil, IMHO I think it should be included in the ontology, or not limited to, especially if Faith, and Love is included.
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
The theology guide has been updated many times in the last few months, for this I am grateful. I have found myself using it more often (Theories on the extent of the atonement was helpful recently)
I did just notice that the topic of "Reconciliation" does not return any "hits" I am not sure what determines the ontology but this seems to fit the category. (?)
I did just notice that the topic of "Reconciliation" does not return any "hits" I am not sure what determines the ontology but this seems to fit the category. (?)
"Reconciliation" is an alternate label for the concept The Holy Spirit and Salvation. With my library it currently returns results in 8 systematic theologies. Can you provide more information about what you're (not) seeing?
I'm sorry for how we failed to communicate well and set your expectations for what to expect and for the slow progress in getting more STs aligned.
Apology accepted. I hope that your push to improve communication also is more cautious on the use of "all" when "most" is what is implemented and identification of trials rather than allowing us to assume the features will continue to be maintained. And, perhaps, a final push on the documentation of datasets where you made real progress that has proved to be quite useful.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
I'm also working to accelerate alignment for the rest of our ST catalog. We did the first small batch internally. Our external team is now trained and beginning to work through the long list of STs. We should have many more showing up within a month or so, if all goes according to plan.
I'm sorry for how we failed to communicate well and set your expectations for what to expect and for the slow progress in getting more STs aligned.
Thank you, Phil, for your update. Whenever I see that you have posted in a thread, I know it's going to be a helpful and informative addition.
I hope you are successful in getting this tool to a more useful state soon.
Attn: Faithlife Staff
I’ve posted in various threads on this before, but I think it deserves its own now.
Logos 8 was rushed out the door at the end of October, 2018. One of the prominent new features advertised for it was the Theology Guide, for which you claim:
[quote]Get diverse perspectives on theological topics
The theology guide draws on the diverse theological resources included in your Logos library. Get quick links to where your topic is treated in your systematic theologies and other resources.
https://www.logos.com/theology-guide
I bought Logos 8 in part because of the Theology Guide. I thought "the diverse theological resources included in your Logos library" would include Moltmann. Nope. Two and a half years later, I'm still waiting. Never gonna happen, is it?
Never gonna happen, is it?
We started a batch of Encyclopedias and Journals. Once we make a dent in those we'll be moving on to Confessional Documents and High-Level monographs. By "high-level" I mean monographs devoted to the highest level of our Systematic Theology annotation. e.g. Christology, Ecclesiolgy, Eschatology, etc. Moltmann is absolutely included in this category.
You have two viable options:
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
This has been a source of disappointment to me as well.
davidtaylorjr.com