The future of Logos and Faithlife: Help us make the right decisions!

Here are some of my thoughts:

1) As a lay person, I am not in a direct position to have much influence whether my local church subscribes to your proposed "church business" software offerings.  I don't see myself as a target customer (although if my church adopted this, as a Logos user, I'm sure I would be happy to jump on board with the integrated services).

2) Lets be honest and acknowledge that Logos Bible Study software is complex.  It takes a lot of effort to learn how to use the tools, especially with the limited up-to-date documentation on how the software works.  You have to devote hours of study on how to use the software and many use third party services to get training.  It is evident in browsing the forums that many (myself included) often struggle figuring out how to use the basics of the software.  Lets extrapolate this to the proposed church services offerings.  Will churches have the stomach to learn how to use the Logos based systems (especially if the included documentation/training/support is as weak as it is with the Bible Study software)?  Large churches with dedicated IT staff may be able to pull it off, but my guess is that the majority of smaller churches won't want to deal with the technology.

3) My biggest concern as a Logos customer is that I see this initiative as a resource drain away from improvements that I would like to see with the Bible study software.  There are a ton of features "in development" that I'm afraid will never be implemented if Logos resources become stretched into other areas.  For example, the "new notes" sounded like a great concept, but there is some very basic functionality that I would expect in a polished product that we are still waiting for.

Thanks for asking for input and I'll pray for wisdom for you and your staff in the decisions ahead.

I'm an outlier, so much of this isn't in my purview, but on this point...

Should the message focus on: Integration with biblical content / education? The integrated platform (no more five accounts to manage)?

I'm assuming you are referencing Logos/Verbum/Faithlife Ebooks/etc. (if not, let me know and/or ignore my comment). I never really liked the separation, and would like one search to bring up everything that is within FL's stable. I'm just not going to run 2-3 or more searches for titles I'm looking to purchase.

The main thing I'm looking for is...to paraphrase Neo..."Titles...lot's of titles." There are numerous series from a variety of publishers that I would like to see available in Logos. I realize De Gruyter titles were offered at one time and they didn't gain much traction, but there are STUPENDOUS monographs on SPECTACULAR topics published by De Gruyter and they should be available in Logos format. The necessary ingredient to make it all work would be to get the publisher to follow the Bloomsbury path of offering their nose-bleed-priced-resources for 80-90% discounts to a market that will otherwise NEVER purchase their titles. Make their $100-300 titles available for $10-30 each and I will buy tons of them. But up to now, and for probably EVER, I won't buy a single book for $100 or more. I WILL BUY thousands of dollars worth of books, though, if I'm getting great value.

Get Eisenbraun's Siphrut series. Get the many SBL monograph series. Their are tons of great monograph series...GET THEM.

GET VETUS TESTAMENTUM & NOVUM TESTAMENTUM (and tons of other serious academic journals)...which are quoted thousands of times in Logos resources. Yeah, I know Brill doesn't want to...BUT CONVINCE THEM OF THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS. The utility of these journals is ratcheted up geometrically, even exponentially, when they are hyperlinked to citations. I OWN the Bloomsbury collection...tons of Sheffield and T&T Clark titles...BECAUSE they were made affordable IN LOGOS. I don't own a single copy of VT or NT (even though I would love to and would benefit from them) because they are stupidly expensive and a serious pain to acquire...and they aren't searchable or linked to my library.

I'm probably way off topic, but you are asking about what would get us to "invest" more in FL and on that account I am very old school. I want MORE HYPERLINKED TITLES.

Again, I would not presume to try and tell you how to run the business, You get enough of that on these forums already. But it seems to me that you have to decide if targeting less than 20% of your potential market will bring the desired results. 

Apple had 80% or so of the personal computer market in the Apple ][ . Then they dropped 90% of their market when they came out with the Mac leaving them with about 5% of the market [at that time].  They made much more money by concentrating on a section that they could master.

So whatever you offer, it really needs to be very simple and probably not more money than they are already spending.

Adding to Bruce's points:

1. Change in a church is very similar to change in a company; it has to solve something about to fail. And it needs a champion that people finally agree to.  Else, someone just digs in.

2. FL has selected to appeal to the higher end of the market. I'd assume the mentioned competition has targeted the low hanging fruit. I'd start well above the smaller churches, but below the big ones. Then expand both directions.

3. My observation here, and traveling, churches are consolidating. This will sound bad, but younger pastors are consciously strategizing to be the end-point, especially in healthy but smaller communities. Our pastor was quite insistent, as well as several others I talked to.  

4. I'd really highlight the geeky-guy (usually). The main argument for a consolidated offering, is training (usually volunteers), and support. Predictability.  The fragmented this and that is a nightmare for the geeky-guy.

5. As already noted, the ability to introduce a single module is critical. Foot in the door. Trying to sell a complete system is best viewed as a disaster.

6. Finally, my opinion, but concentrate on the younger populated churches. They'll see the benefit far quicker.

If you're going to attract churches like ours, you would need to do at least one of the following:

1. Offer a modular system, whereby we could choose which parts we wanted.
2. Reduce the costs for smaller churches in recognition that small churches have far fewer problems that CMSs can solve.
3. Offer sermon import to websites, and pastoral visitation to the CMS.

I had decided not to reply because almost everything here doesn't apply to my current church because of our size, but Mark hit most of the nail on the head for me. I'm sure you know the stats about how many churches are small, etc. Therefore, most of these things just don't apply to us. Plus, to make matters less appealing for us, we're represent an older demographic and many of your offerings really seem to appeal to a more conservative group. (E.g., while there might be movies on FLTV that some of our people would watch, there aren't many.) I'm not asking you to change who you are, but I'm just saying many of these things don't apply to where we are now or where we're heading. (As an aside, I'm a recovery specialist, and we won't be small and older forever. But for the present, that's where we're at.)

Also as an aside, I happen to agree with David Paul above in that offering NT and VT (and other, as he says, "serious" academic titles; I started using Logos eons ago for that express purpose) would be a major win. We're no doubt in a slender minority.

As always, Bob, thanks for allowing the users to give input. Here's my assessment:

We are a church of about 200. If I recall correctly, the majority of churches are 100 or smaller. Even at our church size, we don't need a lot of the products in equip. We use a hodge-podge of software; mostly free stuff, not as integrated as equip but definitely cheaper. I wonder if the whole package is more gear towards the mega-church? I can see all the staff using the professional services of FL. However, I personally think the services for the "whole church" will be a hard sell. People are fickle and like to go with the most popular software (Facebook, Instagram, YouVersion App, Kindle...). Churches are also evangelistic and want there people to be on these platforms to reach unbelievers.

Logos: A couple of the leaders use Logos. The learning curve on Logos as a professional geared service makes it hard to get the whole church on board.

Logos Mobile Apps: This is where most of the "whole church" would use your Bible software. It has a lot of potential, however it is just not there yet in its ease of use and bells/whistles that people would want to give up their YouVersion app (More audio bibles, better reading plans). The app is definitely ahead of most in different areas. Just needs lots of polishing. Some suggestions: Easier 1 Click Word Studying and Copying https://community.logos.com/forums/t/180147.aspx#1040358 https://community.logos.com/forums/t/181522.aspx Reference Scanner Exports: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/156244.aspx Read Aloud Andriod: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/178938.aspx

Courses: More Academic than most church members could stand (from what I've seen).

Proclaim: We have considered using Proclaim, however it wasn't the right timing since we invested in upgrading another software. Though, we will probably move to Proclaim eventually. Logos and Proclaim are both "professional" software. That is an easier sell in a church because only the leaders or tech people have to adopt.

Sites: This is a good idea for smaller churches. Seems like it is still in beta, though, with not a lot of ways to customize.

FL TV: In a service like FLTV content is king. Churches will use the services that have the discipleship content that they want to go through with their church or their people want to watch...etc.

Those are my ramblings. I hope they are helpful!

Bob,  thank you for the opportunity for input here. Since much of the input given so far has come from the perspective of smaller attendance/budget churches (which is the overwhelming majority), I will speak to this from the perspective of a senior pastor of a church with 600+ in attendance and $2 million budget.  Larger established churches will tend to have long histories with a particular church management software that handles their people, financials, and scheduling.  They will be very reluctant to move away from these platforms due to history, investment, and the availability of support and infrastructure from those companies. 

I will say that for what you are offering, if all of these services are excellent, your pricing would be a steal even if it were double the initial pricing.  You will have to sell value.

In my opinion, the two types of churches that you are most likely to have sign up for this service are smaller churches who get a tremendous amount of services in one place for a low price and churches that are growing into "mid-size" who have seen the need for church management software and other services but who haven't yet gotten into the ecosystem of another company.

Finally, as a loyal, ten year Logos Bible Software user, I hope that these new ventures do not ultimately erode the viability of that core business and my personal investment in it.  That is always in the back of everyone's mind. However, business models change. We all understand that.

I really can't think of a reason why anyone would use the web app on a regular basis if they already have it downloaded.

The app is their testbed for desktop development (in theory), and supports all the environments that need the full treatment, but are not Windows/Mac. I pulled my PC offline; no desire to replace. I'd use the app, but they ignore user edits in the library. So, who knows. They wander around a lot.

Then they dropped 90% of their market when they came out with the Mac

That is revisionist history! They dropped their marketshare when MSFT ripped off the GUI OS and licensed it to clones. 

Didn't Apple rip off Xerox regarding the invention and use of GUIs? What goes around comes around. Too bad more people don't contemplate that fundamental fact and its downstream impact. Politics, religion, daily life...

I think the point David was making is that FL would probably serve itself better by being the Mac of the Bible study world. I have probably influenced 2-3 people at most to buy Logos over 20+ years of use. When it comes down to it, most people's treasure isn't Scripture, so they don't spend their treasure on Scripture mastery. Freebies suffice for many, and most don't even want or perceive a need for the freebies. As has been suggested above (and I think I may have suggested it years ago, in so many words), "the Mac approach" of focusing on the serious Bible study crowd (pastors, yes, but primarily the scholarly community) is the focus that would probably serve FL the best going forward.

I also think Logos needs to rethink their licensing procedures, stepping up and creating a sort of Spotify for Bible study groups. Study groups could rent a given book for a month or three, and each person in the reading group would have access to the book for that time. Remember that Netflix took off because people could keep the movie as long as they wanted and there weren't overdue charges and people loved that. The platform could be based on Logos and include a given Bible and a smattering of helps, like Strong's, etc. I imagine that many of the books that would find interest would be in the Ebooks (Vyrso) arena. In all of these options, publishers need to be made to see (twist some arms if need be) that a total price restructuring that takes into account Spotify-style pricing (either pool pricing or deep discount...75%+) will create the kind of value that attracts customers and may even increase the potential readership pool, i.e. create more and new readers.

Speaking of Netflix, maybe FL could parlay their mEd and FLTV materials into a kind of Bible Study Video Club, where "book groups", so to speak, actually get together to watch videos and take mEd classes for a few weeks or months. If the pricing is friendly (i.e. cheap enough that a group of 5-10 can do one or two videos every month or two and feel able to financially keep going after the first videos are completed), this might take off. I think that most of the best ideas will require FL to make some rootbed changes to the "single user" licensing model. If FL can't or won't, they may find themselves floating in the doldrums seas for a long time to come.

From what I can tell, Bob is picking up on the fascination of contemporary mindsets for electronic gadgetry (a la Internet Of Things), and he wants to move that into churches. I think he may do better focusing on church members. Start with something that is like or close to something people are already doing (book groups, for instance) and provide a way for such groups to access their books (or videos) electronically. Despite what the old fogies who post to this forum may prefer, younger people are not as into ownership and they are quite content with temporary access. Focus on the "green" (i.e. treeless) aspect and play that up.

I really can't think of a reason why anyone would use the web app on a regular basis if they already have it downloaded.

I have the desktop version but use the web app when I am working on my Chromebook away from my office. It functions better than the android app in many situations. Plus it is faster. My personal usage is roughly 3 times per week. However, there are some (probably a very small number) who solely use Chromebooks that would be impacted by the removal of the web app.