Poor formatting in FL ebooks
Anyone else seeing formatting issues in FL ebooks? Some things I see are seemingly random number sequences, large sections of text that are hyperlinked (instead of just verse and footnote references), missing chapter designators in verse references, footnote references that send you to the start of a chapter, etc.
I have had to return multiple books that are just too frustrating to use in Logos. I would rather have the kindle version.
A couple of examples are below.
The Gospel
J201697119ESUS’ GOSPEL (ΕὐΑΓΓΈΛΙΟΝ) IS the core message taught (εὐαγγελίζω) by Jesus (Matt 4:23; :35; :5; Luke 4:18, 43; :22; :6; :16; :1).
Elsewhere in this two-ways soteriology, there is a way of light and a way of darkness (2522281381649564818Matt 7:22–23; Luke 11:34–36).
26623191811136718914441301037512. Forgiveness is a divine prerogative (Exod 34:6–7; Sam 12:13; Pss 32:1–5; :1–2, –9; 
; :4; Isa 43:25; :22; Dan 9:9; Zech 3:4; 1QS 2.9; CD 3.18; 20.34) and Matthew and Mark hint that the Messiah is included within this privilege
The kingdom is the rule of God from heaven that the praying disciple will realize on earth as it is in heaven (262523222120191816131187212191843132411210964Matt 6:10, [13]). Jesus grants to his disciples the privilege to understand and be included within this kingdom
A Biblical Theology of Hebrews
Jesus is both victorious as high priest and sympathetic to our weakness. The word “sympathize” (771395147574410συμπαθῆσαι) always includes an element of active help (Heb 4:15; :34).
Moses and Christ cooperate within God’s creation program to bring his house into Sabbath rest. God finished his creation of the world and stopped working on the seventh day (126344162117162523Gen 2:2; Heb 4:3–4).
In the Mosaic covenant context, sin is divided into unintentional sins where atonement is available (196202120161412321724181523220102320205Lev 4:2; :1, 15, –23; Num 15:27, 29) and high-handed rebellion where covenant exclusion (Lev 18:29; :2–5, 18; :29–30) and death is the outcome (Lev 8:35; :1–2; :2–5; 2:9; :29–30; Num 4:15–20; :30–36; :22).250
Comments
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Here is a list of books purchased on FL ebooks that I have had to return within the past few weeks due to numerous formatting issues. These are not cheap books, either, so I don't think it is a price issue.
Life of Christ $54.18
Exploring Worship: Catholic, Evangelical, and Orthodox Perspectives $10.80
Suffering and Evil in Early Christian Thought (Holy Cross Studies in Patristic Theology and History) $16.50
Baxter's Explore the Book $59.99
The Gospel of John: Theological-Ecumenical Readings $18.15It's a shame. These are books I would like to have in my Logos library.
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All the time I see these problems when I use these eBooks. It’s a lucky dip as to what you get when you purchase one.
FL simply take the file from publisher and convert it. Links to bible verses are not checked and often point to the wrong bible verse because the file does not have the bible reference in full. The automatic converter lacks intelligence to work out the correct bible verse. Similarly other formatting issues and problems with table of contents also arise because no human being is involved in the conversion process.
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Robert Neely said:
Here is a list of books purchased on FL ebooks that I have had to return within the past few weeks due to numerous formatting issues. These are not cheap books, either, so I don't think it is a price issue.
It's only an eBook vs. Logos format cost difference; eBooks go through an automatic process dependent upon the publisher to meet the standards so the conversion works; Logos books, Logos takes a more direct role in ensuring that the conversion works.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Well, if FL wants to continue putting out clearly inferior products, that is their prerogative. I am sure the process works great for romance novels, but it is clearly not up to the task for many books.
I know I am not getting full tagging, but I do expect bible verse and footnote references to work, and the text should not contain large amounts of extraneous garbage.
The customer service people keep wanting me to tell them what is wrong with the books that I return. Now all I have to do is give them the link to this thread.
Tip: Be sure to review ALL ebooks purchased from FL within the 30 day return period.
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The last ebook that I purchased (Know Your Bible--Expanded Edition: All 66 Books Books Explained and Applied) had scripture links from the book of Jeremiah that pulled up verses from James. I hope Faithlife improves their accuracy.
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JT (alabama24) said:
I'm assuming what the OP means is that Faithlife eBooks are clearly inferior to (1) Logos resources (which no doubt they are), and (2) the Kindle versions (what the OP says he would rather have than Faithlife eBook versions).
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MWW said:
The last ebook that I purchased (Know Your Bible--Expanded Edition: All 66 Books Books Explained and Applied) had scripture links from the book of Jeremiah that pulled up verses from James
Usually one can figure out the algorithm used to find the "last reference" from this kind of error. I agree that they are a real pain .... sometimes Kyle can do something to fix them. But you should have been forewarned (warning: bad humor ahead) "Bible -Expanded Edition" should have at least 83 books (see Asdvadzashunch edition of the Armenian Church Bible ... remembering that the Armenians were the first Christian nation)[8-|][:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Bill Anderson said:JT (alabama24) said:
I'm assuming what the OP means is that Faithlife eBooks are clearly inferior to (1) Logos resources (which no doubt they are), and (2) the Kindle versions (what the OP says he would rather have than Faithlife eBook versions).
If so, I agree to #1, but not to #2. I have found some to be marginally better in formatting, never “clearly,” and never “more useful.” The one area where a kindle book ipurchase is “clearly better” is when you can acquire the audible version very cheaply
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Sadly FL don’t care about these sort of errors. When it comes to eBooks FL the model is to take no interest in the accuracy of the links of Bible verses they output - its all the publishers fault. It has nothing to do with the business model they choose to adopt. It’s all on the publishers. It has nothing to do with the fact they have decided selling poor quality resources without being very clear to unsuspecting customers that is what they are doing is acceptable. It’s all the fault of the publishers and nothing to do with how FL processes the files they get from the publishers.
So you won’t see any improvement in the accuracy of links. If you want links that are accurate only purchase full Logos resources.
To illustrate how little FL care about this they openly make a false claim on their website about the functionality of FL eBooks.
”Just tap a Bible reference in an ebook and see it in your prefer translation.”
No matter how you want to frame it, how much you want to blame publisher, FL is aware they do nothing to ensure the accuracy of these links yet still proudly make this claim.
MWW said:The last ebook that I purchased (Know Your Bible--Expanded Edition: All 66 Books Books Explained and Applied) had scripture links from the book of Jeremiah that pulled up verses from James. I hope Faithlife improves their accuracy.
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Unfortunately, I don't think we'll see any major improvement to FL ebooks under the current model, see that their profit margin is super minimal. Occasionally, when there's a resource that's especially bad, some manual cleanup gets done, but that's the exception and not the rule.
This is where I would love to see a crowd-sourced solution that empowers (and potentially rewards) users to help improve the entire catalog!
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Reuben Helmuth said:
Unfortunately, I don't think we'll see any major improvement to FL ebooks under the current model, see that their profit margin is super minimal. Occasionally, when there's a resource that's especially bad, some manual cleanup gets done, but that's the exception and not the rule.
Yes, I am not expecting to see any major improvements soon either (or ever) which is why I am now carefully reviewing all ebook purchases to see how bad they are. I am returning books that don't make the cut.
Kindle will provide a better reading experience in a lot of cases and I have Logos open on my other screen for verse references. Not perfect, but works for me.
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Reuben Helmuth said:
Unfortunately, I don't think we'll see any major improvement to FL ebooks under the current model, see that their profit margin is super minimal.
This does not justify the blatant false claims on their website and your comment only highlights FL’s lack on integrity on this issue. They make a claim not supported by their business model.
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DIsciple II said:
Sadly FL don’t care about these sort of errors.
DIsciple II said:its all the publishers fault.
For clarification: FL has been more responsive in the past year about re-processing and correcting some resources when newer conversion schemes can create a better product.
As for the "it's all the publisher's fault," that is true for some issues, but that has never been the claim about scripture hyperlinks. The publisher has nothing to do with it. The auto conversion process seems to work well when the reference is crystal clear (i.e. "John 3:16"). It does a fairly good job on references where the chapter & verse are clear, and the previous reference was in the same book (i.e. "3:17" for "John 3:17). It is mostly wrong when the reference isn't explicit in the immediate context and the reference is to a new book (i.e. "In his second work, Luke blah blah blah 3:18 [for Acts 3:18]).
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Sometime late last year (or early this year) a FL rep said on this forum that they were going to look into user contributions to tagging (formatting?) this type of stuff.
Potato resting atop 2020 Mac Pro stand.
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JT (alabama24) said:Bill Anderson said:JT (alabama24) said:
I'm assuming what the OP means is that Faithlife eBooks are clearly inferior to (1) Logos resources (which no doubt they are), and (2) the Kindle versions (what the OP says he would rather have than Faithlife eBook versions).
If so, I agree to #1, but not to #2. I have found some to be marginally better in formatting, never “clearly,” and never “more useful.” The one area where a kindle book ipurchase is “clearly better” is when you can acquire the audible version very cheaply
We just got back from Hawaii, and I happily returned to reading an FL app'd book. I couldn't tell where I was (get my bearings). Somewhere about 2/3's thru. Grabbing the location slider was little help. Para 2,1, thank you very much.
I'll take a Kindle 99% of the time over an FL ebook (and a Logos just-read-it book). I gave up on the above book.
And I don't buy 'it came from the publisher, we just load it' silliness. Customers don't pay for bad product. Any more than the publisher 'metadata' sloppiness is ok on Logos.com.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
We just got back from Hawaii, and I happily returned to reading an FL app'd book. I couldn't tell where I was (get my bearings). Somewhere about 2/3's thru. Grabbing the location slider was little help. Para 2,1, thank you very much.
I have no idea what you are trying to say here. [:s]
Denise said:I'll take a Kindle 99% of the time over an FL ebook (and a Logos just-read-it book).
For books which I want to read cover-to-cover, and for which I am not wanting to take notes, my preference is to read on a Kindle Paperwhite. That does not necessarily mean it has to be a kindle edition resource. I miss the "send to kindle" feature.
My prime reason for preferring everything to be in Logos (including FLEB titles) is for the books to be in my library. The ability to search, take notes, etc. is superior.
Denise said:And I don't buy 'it came from the publisher, we just load it' silliness.
Again, it depends upon the resource and the issue. For example: It is common to have goofy product info from the publisher, which shows up on Kindle, Faithlife, etc. I love the "this volume comes with genuine bonded leather." [:P]
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JT (alabama24) said:Denise said:
We just got back from Hawaii, and I happily returned to reading an FL app'd book. I couldn't tell where I was (get my bearings). Somewhere about 2/3's thru. Grabbing the location slider was little help. Para 2,1, thank you very much.
I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
Clearly you don't read 7-8 books at the same time. I read until it bogs down. Then return later, when I'm bogged down in other books. On the Logos desktop, it shows you clearly where you are (TOC panel). On all my 4 versions of Kindle, it shows me where I am (TOC panel or literal TOC). But the FL apps, usually only the last major para and sub-para somewhere on the scrollbar. Ergo 'avoid FL apps'.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Gotcha. That would be annoying! [:s]
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JT (alabama24) said:
For clarification: FL has been more responsive in the past year about re-processing and correcting some resources when newer conversion schemes can create a better product.
And do they should, when a customer purchase something from FL and it is rubbish they should fix it, whether it be a FL eBook or full Logos book.
JT (alabama24) said:As for the "it's all the publisher's fault," that is true for some issues, but that has never been the claim about scripture hyperlinks.
JT I know its not the publisher fault. I was simply parroting the excuse that always gets rolled out first whenever anyone raises a concern with a FL eBook. And I beg to differ it ha not been claimed as the excuse for hyperlinks. You yourself have excused the poor hyperlinking in FL eBooks because FL an only work with what the publishers provides them.
...
JT (alabama24) said:has never been the claim about scripture hyperlinks. The publisher has nothing to do with it. The auto conversion process seems to work well when the reference is crystal clear (i.e. "John 3:16"). It does a fairly good job on references where the chapter & verse are clear, and the previous reference was in the same book (i.e. "3:17" for "John 3:17). It is mostly wrong when the reference isn't explicit in the immediate context and the reference is to a new book (i.e. "In his second work, Luke blah blah blah 3:18 [for Acts 3:18]).
And JT you have just backed up my major complaint about FL eBooks - FL have no basis to make the claim, "Just tap a Bible reference in an eBook and see it in your prefer translation.”
They can not state this when they know that they can not convert all references in a FL eBook into an accurate hyperlink. There is no nice way to say this but someone is signing off on accepting a lie be placed on their website. I have seen this sort of claim made on at two different pages on the site, whether there are more pages with this lie it's nor really my job to go and find them for FL. It's the responsibility of the leadership of FL to show some integrity on this issue and have the marketing updated to reflect the truth by openly pointing out to potential customers that they can not guarantee accurate hyperlinks to references on all occasions. They know they can't. No matter how much anyone wants to dress this up. It's a lie and FL are putting it out there to potential customers knowingly. It's wrong and its about time the leadership at FL did something to correct this wrong.
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Denise said:JT (alabama24) said:Denise said:
We just got back from Hawaii, and I happily returned to reading an FL app'd book. I couldn't tell where I was (get my bearings). Somewhere about 2/3's thru. Grabbing the location slider was little help. Para 2,1, thank you very much.
I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
Clearly you don't read 7-8 books at the same time. I read until it bogs down. Then return later, when I'm bogged down in other books. On the Logos desktop, it shows you clearly where you are (TOC panel). On all my 4 versions of Kindle, it shows me where I am (TOC panel or literal TOC). But the FL apps, usually only the last major para and sub-para somewhere on the scrollbar. Ergo 'avoid FL apps'.
Sounds like we read alike and totally agree working out where you are when reading a book in a FL app is like undertaking major surgery. They added all the other features to the app and yet forgot about navigation - and as for making highlights I'm less inclined to do that these days in the apps. They new system is less functional than the old and when you highlight you have to manually go an set the note file you want the note assigned - but that's a whole other thread.
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DIsciple II said:
And I beg to differ it ha not been claimed as the excuse for hyperlinks. You yourself have excused the poor hyperlinking in FL eBooks because FL an only work with what the publishers provides them.
You are confused. I have never said that errors in scripture hyperlinks are the fault of the publisher. They are not. They are the "fault" of the limited auto conversion process.
DIsciple II said:And JT you have just backed up my major complaint about FL eBooks - FL have no basis to make the claim, "Just tap a Bible reference in an eBook and see it in your prefer translation.”
Although I don't agree, I understand your complaint. I don't care to argue about it one way or the other.
My two significant disagreements with your position:
1. I don't agree that FL is "lying." You are imputing motives about FL and its employees which you should not.
2. I don't agree that FL should either meet your particular standard for FLEB books OR not sell them at all. Every time you bring this up, I say the same thing. You get mad, but it is true. If you don't like it, don't buy it! However, there are many of us who do want the books in our library even if it doesn't quite rise to what we would want. For me, the quality of the vast majority of these books is more than sufficient to justify purchase in this format over another format and not having the title in my Logos library. There are some titles where this is not the case. As I stated earlier, FL has been more responsive of late to either: 1) reconvert if a good solution can be found or 2) pull the title from the store.
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JT (alabama24) said:DIsciple II said:
And I beg to differ it ha not been claimed as the excuse for hyperlinks. You yourself have excused the poor hyperlinking in FL eBooks because FL an only work with what the publishers provides them.
You are confused. I have never said that errors in scripture hyperlinks are the fault of the publisher. They are not. They are the "fault" of the limited auto conversion process.
I am not confused in the slightest JT you are the one confused, we are both saying the same thing from different angles, I am talking about the input to the process that comes from the publisher which you have always said is why the limited auto conversion process can not do a better job with hyperlinks.
But then you follow up with statements that show you seem to be confuse about how to respond. in the first instance you say:
JT (alabama24) said:Although I don't agree, I understand your complaint. I don't care to argue about it one way or the other.
And then in the next paragraph straight up after that:
JT (alabama24) said:My two significant disagreements with your position:
That doesn't sound like someone who doesn't care to argue.
Especially when you presume you are so superior to me that you have the authority to take something I said and twist it out of context.
JT (alabama24) said:1. I don't agree that FL is "lying." You are imputing motives about FL and its employees which you should not.
I am not imputing anything about the motive of FL or their employees. I have called out a single issue where they know they are not communicating the truth, you know they are not communicating the truth, and yet the persist with the claim they can not possibly make - you have confirmed once again scripture hyperlinks have errors due to the limited auto-conversion process.
Now they know the auto conversion is limited so then when they claim "Just tap a Bible reference in an eBook and see it in your prefer translation.”, they know they are telling customers and potential customers and un-truth which is a lie, no mater how you want to dance around it - and it is on this issue and this issue alone I have said FL are displaying a lack of integrity. I have not said, implied or imputed about their motives despite you wanting to read this into what I have said.
For you it's an incovenient truth that FL is being misleading in their statement "Just tap a Bible reference in an eBook and see it in your prefer translation.” and so you seem to be offened that someone wall call it out for the lie that it is. Whatever the motives are behind it - and I have made no presumption of those motives - it is still a lie.
But for the guy who didn't want to argue, you go on an make an even bigger futher assumption of what I want, when I have made no statement about what I want other than I wanting FL to correct this wrong. I have not said in my respsonse above I expect FLEB to meet my particular standards, and I have not said if they don't do that they should stop selling ebooks. You have never asked me what i want, you simply presume you know what I want and put words into my mouth so you can setup a straw man argument about me getting mad so you try and draw attention away from the real issue.
I raise this issue beause it is not about me, it is about FL, it's about the message they are sending to customers, it is about them showing integrity in every aspect of their business. It's about them taking responsibility for misleading information in their marketing. Nothing more than that and certainly nothing about what you think you know and what you want to paint it being about.
I am not 'mad' but simply astonished that you and FL and every other self appointed defender of FL think it is ok for a misleading statement about the functionality of FLEB be published on their website and am flabbergasted that you think you are so superior to me that you have the authority to make presumptions about what I am thinking and what I want and to say to me "If you don't like it, don't buy it!". I am sorry but you have no right to make that sort of statement to a fellow customer and are way out of line in speaking to a customer of FL like that no matter how much you disagree with them. That show's you have no idea how to handle people with whom you disagree when you think that is an appropriate response.
If I was what you say I am, the person you are trying to paint a picture of, I would not longer be a customer of this company. But actually I remain a customer of this company and care enough about it to challenge them to clean this issue up despite know how you are going to come, all guns blazing, trying to take me down as you defend FL.
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DIsciple II said:
Now they know the auto conversion is limited so then when they claim "Just tap a Bible reference in an eBook and see it in your prefer translation.”, they know they are telling customers and potential customers and un-truth which is a lie, no mater how you want to dance around it - and it is on this issue and this issue alone I have said FL are displaying a lack of integrity.
If we tell one lie, that makes us a liar. If we sin once, we're a sinner. Perhaps that's harsh, but we'd probably agree it's the truth.
I think that's why people can be thankful for qualities like grace, compassion, mercy, patience, forgiveness, and love.
I believe that FL's claim is generally true, and reasonable. I don't consider it to be deceptive, or misleading.
Do I (and FL) wish the quality could be improved? Sure. But if I think their marketing should be judged or condemned, what judgement or condemnation do I deserve? Their partial bible reference auto conversion isn't perfect. I'm not perfect. Not an excuse. Just the truth.
It's healthier for me to focus on what I'm thankful for, including the lower cost, having access to the book within Logos, and a free upgrade if it was to be converted to Logos format.
DIsciple II said:I remain a customer of this company and care enough about it to challenge them to clean this issue up
Might there be a more constructive way to challenge them, without having to call them liars? Not defending them in particular. The accusation simply makes me cringe.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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PetahChristian said:
Might there be a more constructive way to challenge them, without having to call them liars? Not defending them in particular. The accusation simply makes me cringe.
[Y]
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PetahChristian said:DIsciple II said:
I remain a customer of this company and care enough about it to challenge them to clean this issue up
Might there be a more constructive way to challenge them, without having to call them liars? Not defending them in particular. The accusation simply makes me cringe.
Petah you are now falling into JT's problem of taking something I have said out of context and saying something I never said. I did not say FL are liars I said that one particular statement is a lie. The fact they persist with a lie makes me cringe too. It makes me cringe even more that people like JT and yourself can not handle the truth and so would rather create another mistruth about what I have said. I have tried other ways and the leadership of FL continue to bury their heads in the sand and refuse to change this piece of marketing despite not being able to show the statement was true and that I was wrong.
PetahChristian said:I believe that FL's claim is generally true, and reasonable. I don't consider it to be deceptive, or misleading.
Generally true is not truth, it's a statement of excuse for what is not true of what is being said. And if what is being said is not the whole truth, it is then in fact misleading. You sound like someone who can not handle the truth either when you try to justify a lie to yourself with this double minded talk. It is the words of a teenager trying to justify to their parents their disobendience. It's not the words of truth at all.
The truth is sometimes inconvenient, the truth sometimes makes us cringe. I am not afraid of that truth, as much as it makes me cringe too, but it seems you and JT and some others are afraid of it and word rather try to bury me that allow the wound to be exposed and healed to make a great company even greater.
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Be careful of what you like and accept as truth, you leave the door open to be told further mistruth. In this case Petah has not been around on these forums long enough to no the full background of this issue and has made some seriously flawed assumptions.
MWW said:PetahChristian said:Might there be a more constructive way to challenge them, without having to call them liars? Not defending them in particular. The accusation simply makes me cringe.
As inconvenient the truth maybe, it remains FL is not telling the truth when they make this statement and fail to be open about its limitations.
JT and Peta are in the know about the limitations. I am advocating for those not in the know. They think it’s ok for these people to be told something less than the truth.
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Writing my own parsers, I'd hate to guarantee anyone even a good Bible ref scan. They're truly obnoxious. You can't even safely assume partials refer back to the most recent ref. And then they mix and match Bible vs some other similarly ref'd source (eg targum, etc). Bad news at Blackrock.
And Disciple II, I'd agree the Logos boilerplate is a stretch, especially when they know it. But FL Marketing is not likely to go for credibility.
It's why I like some of the marketing folks at the other Bible software companies. The other day, I noticed I accept everyone's marketing emails except Logos. And I don't even buy anymore from 2 of them.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
I'd hate to guarantee anyone even a good Bible ref scan.
I can vouch for Verbum having deuterocanonical references in formats that are not picked up. I went on a search of reference formats for the Maccabees and came to the conclusion that I would never find them all. FL does seem to be responsive to adding those that are reported.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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