What's the difference between Logos Research and Logos Reader?
Interesting. Good catch!
The answer can be found by clicking on the "?" when viewing the book in the library.
From those descriptions, I would gather a better formatted eBook.
More details at the updated page here: https://www.logos.com/logos-editions. It's related to https://www.logos.com/same-day-releases.
Thanks Phil
But it still looks as though these depend on customer interest to move into production as per https://www.logos.com/product/192482/the-gospel-beyond-the-gospels which was produced in 2017 but still not available in Logos
Is that correct or am I missing something?
I think it would be more accurate to say that Reader editions are lower quality ebooks.
Well, ebooks have no page numbers, and can have very messy Scripture tagging, both of which are a cause of frequent frustration. I therefore welcome the arrival of the reader's editions.
Bonhoeffer's works are already available as a dedicated reader's edition, at a much better price (sadly, US and Canada only).https://www.logos.com/product/127135/dietrich-bonhoeffers-works-readers-editions
I'm looking forward to seeing more reader's editions arrive in Logos, maybe derived from the more scholarly works that have been available on FLEB.
Research Edition versus Reader Edition:
Being able to read superscripts is very important to me. I mean all superscripts, not just Bible references.
Re Reader Edition: Can I read the complete text of all superscripts?
I cannot highlight superscripts. Some are lengthy, and to be able to underline the important part would be sweet. Come on FL, lets get this done for L9!!!
From those descriptions, I would gather a better formatted eBook. I think it would be more accurate to say that Reader editions are lower quality ebooks.
No; this is inaccurate.
"eBooks" (as an edition in Logos) are produced by an entirely automated process.
Logos Reader editions are still produced manually, just not with as many features or tagging as a Logos Research edition.
Are ALL the superscripts functional, Brad?? Can I click the number and stabilize the box, so I can read its contents?
More details at the updated page here: https://www.logos.com/logos-editions. It's related to https://www.logos.com/same-day-releases. Thanks Phil But it still looks as though these depend on customer interest to move into production as per https://www.logos.com/product/192482/the-gospel-beyond-the-gospels which was produced in 2017 but still not available in Logos Is that correct or am I missing something?
That's a great question. The wording on that page could be clearer.
While the majority of reader editions will go straight into production, there will be some reader editions that depend on customer interest to move into production. The difference is that they will require less customer interest.
I assume that if these migrate to Logos editions, the users will get the updated version?
This seems Similar to my suggestion of having a Vyrso title given to those who pre-order a book.
I assume that if these migrate to Logos editions, the users will get the updated version? This seems Similar to my suggestion of having a Vyrso title given to those who pre-order a book.
These are Logos editions already so if we added functionality (i.e. updated it to a research edition) it would show up in the same way that current updates to Logos editions would show up automatically (e.g. a typo fix or new markup to support a new feature/dataset).
Logos Reader editions are still produced manually, just not with as many features or tagging as a Logos Research edition. Are ALL the superscripts functional, Brad?? Can I click the number and stabilize the box, so I can read its contents?
My question is getting bypassed.
I ask again for an answer.
The page on this issue is vague, because it is ''marketing-written''. Best for me would be a chart with checked-off boxes detailing what features are provided for each type of volume.
Please step up, FL employees.
The way I read it (We tag Scripture references and some other basics, but forgo the robust treatment given to reference works.) They are lower quality Logos books, but better quality than Faithlife Ebooks.
Perhaps a little more information is in order.
We decided to introduce Logos reader editions for a number of reasons, but here are the three biggest:
1. To expand our catalog beyond what we would normally offer by keeping production costs down. Reader editions allow us to include books in our catalog that would otherwise not make it into Logos. While they don’t’ have the full markup of a research editions, they are significantly better than ebooks.2. To release more books at the same day as the publisher. The announcement of Reader Editions coincides with our announcement about Same-day releases. Our goal is to co-release a majority of academic resources from 5 of the major publishers the same day they are released by the publisher (we’ve been doing this since November but wanted to make sure we were able to consistently deliver before we made a public announcement). 3. To offer better pricing. Where possible, we plan to have the lower production costs reflected in the price we sell the book for. We can’t always do this because we don’t always control prices. But where we can, we will.
Logos Reader editions are still produced manually, just not with as many features or tagging as a Logos Research edition. Are ALL the superscripts functional, Brad?? Can I click the number and stabilize the box, so I can read its contents? My question is getting bypassed. I ask again for an answer. The page on this issue is vague, because it is ''marketing-written''. Best for me would be a chart with checked-off boxes detailing what features are provided for each type of volume. Please step up, FL employees.
I'll get you a clearer answer to that question.
From those descriptions, I would gather a better formatted eBook. I think it would be more accurate to say that Reader editions are lower quality ebooks. The way I read it (We tag Scripture references and some other basics, but forgo the robust treatment given to reference works.) They are lower quality Logos books, but better quality than Faithlife Ebooks.
That's probably one way to put it [:)]
Comparing "quality" with ebooks is probably helpful. As Bradley pointed out, ebooks are automatically generated based on what we are sent from the publisher. They get almost no extra work. They don't have page numbers, Bible citations are only tagged if they follow a certain format, internal linking doesn't work, and overall the formatting and layout is often subpar.
I wouldn't use the word "quality" to compare them with research editions. "Functionality" is probably more apt. Our plan is to make reader editions out of books that wouldn't necessarily benefit from the extra markup of a research edition. In other words, if we invested a lot of extra production time and cost in adding complete tagging, it is unlikely it would add a lot of benefit to most users. In cases where it becomes apparent that extra markup would benefit users, we may add additional tagging.
From those descriptions, I would gather a better formatted eBook. I think it would be more accurate to say that Reader editions are lower quality ebooks. The way I read it (We tag Scripture references and some other basics, but forgo the robust treatment given to reference works.) They are lower quality Logos books, but better quality than Faithlife Ebooks. That's probably one way to put it Comparing "quality" with ebooks is probably helpful. As Bradley pointed out, ebooks are automatically generated based on what we are sent from the publisher. They get almost no extra work. They don't have page numbers, Bible citations are only tagged if they follow a certain format, internal linking doesn't work, and overall the formatting and layout is often subpar. I wouldn't use the word "quality" to compare them with research editions. "Functionality" is probably more apt. Our plan is to make reader editions out of books that wouldn't necessarily benefit from the extra markup of a research edition. In other words, if we invested a lot of extra production time and cost in adding complete tagging, it is unlikely it would add a lot of benefit to most users. In cases where it becomes apparent that extra markup would benefit users, we may add additional tagging.
That's probably one way to put it
Ben
With these reader editions, does that mean more sales will come to Logos? A lot of times we see sales but we are told that if a book is in Logos the sale won't transfer because it has added functionality but the books in ebooks do get the sales. It seems these reader editions are fancy ebooks unless I'm missing something
These are Logos editions already
Sorry to be pedantic, but that doesn't make sense. You have just introduced a new "edition" type which didn't exist before. If you decide to give them more functionality, then they would become a different "edition" type, right?
These are Logos editions already Sorry to be pedantic, but that doesn't make sense. You have just introduced a new "edition" type which didn't exist before. If you decide to give them more functionality, then they would become a different "edition" type, right?
I must say I’m worried and confused about this. I’m hoping we aren’t getting ebooks at logos prices just for the sake of speed. Quality is better to me
Yes. I see what you're saying. I probably shouldn't have used the word "edition" there. That was confusing.
FWIW, here's how we're thinking about it (bare with me):
There are Logos books and ebooks. Ebooks are created automatically and though they share a common file type, they are quite different than Logos books. For example, when we make a Logos resource out of an ebook, we really have to remake the entire resource.
Logos books are hand created and hand tagged. If we were to add markup, we would just "recycle" the resource (essentially the same thing we'd do to fix a typo). Research editions and reader editions are both created this way. The difference is that the reader editions don't receive the same level of markup as a research edition. So if we updated the markup it would still be a Logos book, it would just have the tagging level of a research edition.
We discussed a lot of different ways to refer to the two different tagging levels and "edition" made the most sense.
A simple way to put it would be:
There are two types of Logos books:
1. Research editions
2. Reader editions
And there is one type of ebook.
I feel like a lot of that is inside baseball ... I hope it makes some sense.
These are Logos editions already Sorry to be pedantic, but that doesn't make sense. You have just introduced a new "edition" type which didn't exist before. If you decide to give them more functionality, then they would become a different "edition" type, right? I must say I’m worried and confused about this. I’m hoping we aren’t getting ebooks at logos prices just for the sake of speed. Quality is better to me
That is not the intent. The intent is to identify books that don't necessarily require full markup but wouldn't necessarily make sense as just an ebook. Rather than stick those books on pre-pub and wait for costs to be covered for a full markup or not do them at all, we wanted to find a way to get them into Logos.
The quality will be the same as any existing Logos resource. The difference is the level of markup.
Note that we are calling out on the product pages when a book is a reader edition so you will know before you place an order.
The quality will be the same as any existing Logos resource. The difference is the level of markup. Note that we are calling out on the product pages when a book is a reader edition so you will know before you place an order.
I, in my mind, have used the term ''lower quality'' for FLEBs.
For me: more mark up = higher quality......and hence, the opposite obtains, as well.
Now, a poser. Hmmm. A high quality reader edition that is lower quality than a research edition.
Sooo, what am I not getting in the reader edition AND do I figure the price has been lowered to // the reduced features.
Where is a chart I can measure a book against, to factually assess this new species of Logos offering.
I, a Canadian, am an admirer of New York governor A. Cuomo, and his logical, sequential method of navigating this crisis. Works for me!!
May I have the facts, please, Logos?
I like this approach - far better than promising more tagging than is financially feasible or functionally needed. However, that means for researchers it is essential that standard label templates (styles) be provided by Logos and that community tagging values be more comprehensive so that one can add the additional tagging as needed for a particular project.
Research Edition versus Reader Edition: Being able to read superscripts is very important to me. I mean all superscripts, not just Bible references. Re Reader Edition: Can I read the complete text of all superscripts?
Assuming you're talking about footnotes, footnotes in Logos Reader editions will be exactly the same as the footnotes you're used to in Logos Research editions (which were called "Logos editions" until last week).
This is a longstanding known issue with footnotes in Logos resources (of any edition). Any updates will be posted to this suggestion: https://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-6/suggestions/822227-provide-the-ability-to-mark-up-footnotes
Sooo, what am I not getting in the reader edition
I don't know for sure (so take this with a grain of salt), but it's probably extra (invisible) markup like {Label} tagging, which is time-consuming and expensive to add when the resource is being created.
As the reply to the OP showed, "rich markup [and] detailed tagging" are only in Logos Research editions.
That seems to be a contradiction. The way some may see it, the less markup, the lower the quality.
The whole premise of Logos is that its power comes from being able to use its tools and features to quickly find information due to the Logos edition markup.
The notion of a partial markup book seems inferior, even inadequate, to a full markup book. A Logos Reader edition may not appear in some results because it lacks “the robust treatment given to reference works.”
If that is how you define quality, then yes, they are lower quality.
What I'm getting at is that ebooks often have poor formatting, images don't show up properly, etc. Reader editions won't have those quality issues.
The quality will be the same as any existing Logos resource. The difference is the level of markup. That seems to be a contradiction. The way some may see it, the less markup, the lower the quality. The whole premise of Logos is that its power comes from being able to use its tools and features to quickly find information due to the Logos edition markup.
The point is that sometimes there's no need or benefit in additional markup. The book that started this thread is fiction by George MacDonald. He is well-known for having preachers in his novels hold sermons or lengthy theological discussions. Of course it makes sense to have bible verse tagging for such a resource, but you probably won't find footnotes or other need for tagging there. The same goes for many resources that are popular level "christian living" or even lighter theological books. Having them in Logos is great, having them as Logos Reader editions instead of as eBooks makes sure we don't see glaring formatting issues and the bible references really go where they should go. So in my opinion and current understanding, all the reference and tagging that can and should be there, is there.
It would be unfortunate to see very academic discussions and technical commentaries that interact a lot with other published works as "Logos readers editions" (unless there's a way for users to crowd-supply missing tagging especially links)
That is not the plan. We intend to give those resources all the markup we can.
The point is that sometimes there's no need or benefit in additional markup.
I think that is exactly the point and I applaud Faithlife for doing this. My only concern is that it may appear to be part of a slippery slope where more and more resources fall into this category. Has a clear line been drawn for this?
I have read the whole thread so far and still would like to see a clearer explanation. The more I read, the clearer it became. But it is still vague, not clear. I like the idea and the reasoning behind the idea, but I am still unclear as to what this is.
Two types of Logos editions seems to mean that there are the usual editions (Logos Gold, Silver etc) and now there is a new edition called reader. Are there Reader packages? or are they only resources? How will we know what resource is a research resource or a reader resource?
Actually, if what I have written so far is accurate, then there are now 3 editions: Research, Reader and ebook.
As I wrote, if I understand this (and I am not sure I do), then I like the idea of hopefully seeing books that are not currently in digital format that are sitting on my desk, finally be put into digital format, even if only in Reader edition.
But please correct my understanding if this is way off the mark.
Two types of Logos editions seems to mean that there are the usual editions (Logos Gold, Silver etc) and now there is a new edition called reader.
No. There were Logos editions (filter the library by edition:l ) and ebooks (formerly Vyrso and Noet eBooks, edition:e ) and PBs, user-created, thus edition:u . Faithlife sold only Logos editions in the base packages (Gold, Silver whatever) and on Logos.com and Verbum.com - even if those books in some cases didn't have tagging.
Are there Reader packages? or are they only resources?
They are always and only resources. Even the resources that have "Readers Edition" in their title are still Logos Research editions from the way they are produced and designated in Logos. The publishers leave off the footnotes, thus making them cheaper to produce and more appealing to less academic minded customers. Technically there is only one resource in all of the say 50k resources available for Logos that has been designated as edition:"logos reader".
How will we know what resource is a research resource or a reader resource?
It says so on the product page
there are now 3 editions: Research, Reader and ebook. yes, but plus User = PBs, so it's four
I like the idea of hopefully seeing books that are not currently in digital format that are sitting on my desk, finally be put into digital format, even if only in Reader edition.
That's my hope as well.
Consider the introductory light reading series "for Armchair Theologians" from WJK - a nice series. But do we really need the names and dates tagged? Most people searching for tags would want meatier books ... but if I really wanted them to show up, I could use community tags and save everyone some money.
if I really wanted them to show up, I could use community tags and save everyone some money
How much is your time worth to add those tags yourself (versus FL doing it)?
I’ve been patiently waiting a long time for Carta to be available in Logos, but if FL ever shipped a Reader edition of a Carta resource, I’d wonder why I just didn’t settle on Carta in Accordance, years ago.
Lower resource cost shouldn’t justify lower functionality.
What I meant was: How will I know in my Logos Library (not the product page) which resources are research and which are reader? In other words, which resources have less functionality and I should expect less functionality.
So can there be 3 Supernatural books one research edition, another reader’s edition and yet another ebook edition? Will the price be less on the ebook, a little more on the reader’s edition and then more expensive for the research edition?
This new concept (reader’s edition) doesn’t seem like a good idea in my opinion. I thought ebooks were simple for the purpose of reading only, yet, technically, we’re still able to ”read” all of them 🤔🤨 confusing 🤷♂️
DAL
Given the number of older works that FL has not gotten around to updating, I doubt very much that it will add very much tagging time for those I do myself. However, it should free them up to get to some of the books I am annoyed they haven't prioritized. I've learned to accept that the books I use most and need tagged are not the same as many of their users.
How will I know in my Logos Library (not the product page) which resources are research and which are reader? In other words, which resources have less functionality and I should expect less functionality.
I understand your point but I'm already in that situation - which resources work with <biography Justin Martyr> versus "Justin Martyr" is the case discussed in the forums a couple of days ago.
I'm not really enthused at all about this. Logos is not Kindle and it's users didn't purchase the program for a reading library. This seems to me to be a waste of time and resources for a program that's devoted to Bible study and its related fields. I hope this is a short venture.
This is very similar to something I hoped for a few years ago. I know I reveal a lot of ignorance there [:P] and there are differences (in purpose, in results, and in other ways), but it would be easy to make a case for a huge chunk of the types of things that have been fully tagged to be candidates for a Readers Edition.
May I ask what is tagged in the reader edition that is not tagged in the ebook edition?
What extra Marked Up are there in the reader edition that is searchable which is not searchable in the ebook edition
The best explanation for this was one that offered what is at the root of all change motivation towards a perceived goal. Ben summarized.
We decided to introduce Logos reader editions for a number of reasons, but here are the three biggest: 1. To expand our catalog beyond what we would normally offer by keeping production costs down. Reader editions allow us to include books in our catalog that would otherwise not make it into Logos. While they don’t’ have the full markup of a research editions, they are significantly better than ebooks.2. To release more books at the same day as the publisher. The announcement of Reader Editions coincides with our announcement about Same-day releases. Our goal is to co-release a majority of academic resources from 5 of the major publishers the same day they are released by the publisher (we’ve been doing this since November but wanted to make sure we were able to consistently deliver before we made a public announcement). 3. To offer better pricing. Where possible, we plan to have the lower production costs reflected in the price we sell the book for. We can’t always do this because we don’t always control prices. But where we can, we will.
I have calmed down now and I for one will support this change. But, if the ship should be headed for the shoals I shall sound the alarm. Carry on FL I am with you. Thanks, for your years of innovation and service.
On the one hand, I fear the slippery slope.
On the other hand, some many "Logos editions" I have in my library are very lacking in hyperlinks to other resources that would be expected. It's almost a roll of the dice when you get a new book anyway.
Also, I do understand that much of the tagging is probably not very useful for a lot resources, like the Armchair Theologians series as M.J. pointed out.
Analytical Bible Expositor by John G Butler has been a reader’s edition for the longest. Only Bible references are hyperlinked. It shows under commentaries but not much work went into it.
I assume that if these migrate to Logos editions, the users will get the updated version? This seems Similar to my suggestion of having a Vyrso title given to those who pre-order a book. These are Logos editions already so if we added functionality (i.e. updated it to a research edition) it would show up in the same way that current updates to Logos editions would show up automatically (e.g. a typo fix or new markup to support a new feature/dataset).
I thought that the reader editions were introduced to publish the resource faster and cheaper. If the reader edition later gets upgraded for free to a research edition, who pays for the additional work of extensive tagging?
May I ask what is tagged in the reader edition that is not tagged in the ebook edition? What extra Marked Up are there in the reader edition that is searchable which is not searchable in the ebook edition
Ben answered that here: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/190556/1099021.aspx#1099021
As Bradley pointed out, ebooks are automatically generated based on what we are sent from the publisher. They get almost no extra work. They don't have page numbers, Bible citations are only tagged if they follow a certain format, internal linking doesn't work, and overall the formatting and layout is often subpar.
"eBook Editions" are converted from the input files with an automated process. Unambiguous Bible references are tagged, but ambiguous ones (e.g., "see note on v. 3") are often not. "Logos Reader" editions have a human QC pass that tags these references properly, makes the formatting consistent, etc. Thus, the reading experience will be improved, and you'll have greater accuracy when searching for Bible references.
Will the adoption of this strategy make bringing to Logos much anticipated resources like the missing Baylor Handbook series more likely? This was promised to be in the works. Another want would be BAGD. And other unicorns such as the return to the catalogue of Tov's Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible and the abandoned project to translate Ceslas Spicq's The Epistle to the Hebrews.
From my point of view this is a positive development. I often need to read a book and end up buying a Kindle or dead-tree edition because it’s either not on Logos’ horizon or stuck in pre-pub purgatory. For me, ebooks don’t normally work as I do need page numbers and footnotes so I can cite accurately. Bringing editions to market quickly that have these features reliably will result in Faithlife getting more of my book spend. My major frustration to date has been the sheer amount of time it takes for books to become available in Logos.
I agree with this. I prefer to have a logos reader edition of a book than a kindle book.
I just hope that someone with good communication skills can clear up the confusion. One thing I have clearly learned from FL (since the switch from L3-L4) is how important it is to have a good marketing team.
