Homepage reflections

11) The home page does not always draw correctly. On a very few occasions, when the window is a certain size, white gaps appear in the middle...

12) I would like the bibliographical information related to excerpts to be a slightly smaller font from the excerpt proper and to be preceded by a slight lead in to distinguish it from the text of the excerpt.

13) The whole home page needs more whitespace. This is possibly why I find the pictures from 1000 bible images so appealing on the front page of the homepage. It is a difference between the New York Times look and the look of many other newspapers.

14) I agree with those who have written elsewhere that the information in the GO bar at the top needs to be customisable. I would get rid of absolutely everything from there except for the GO bar.

Milford Charles Murray

I also appreciate the pictures and images on the Homepage! Now and again I need to take a brief mental break - or just to breathe deeply - and there is my Homepage to peruse ....

*smile*

........... Mel

Bob Pritchett

Just to explain our thinking... the hot-spots aren't live in excerpts, nor do they display whole articles, nor do they offer right-click functionality, etc. because they're there to get you to jump into the book itself. It would take a lot of code to re-create all the standard book functionality in the Home Page, and it would still never be the whole book. So our hope was that you'd see something interesting, then click on it, after which you could read it in full-context, use popups, menus, features, etc.

The varying headlines sizes are to be more newspaper like, and to attract the eye. We could make this very regular, uniform, and not busy -- but that would be contrary to the whole point, which is to put a lot of options in front of people to catch their interest.

It's clear from the feedback here that not everyone likes that, so we're reconsidering it. But the goal was to be newspaper like. The goal was also to not offer something highly customizable, because that's contrary to the goal of introducing people to new things. If I ordered a "custom" newspaper, I'd only see business and local news. I never care about sports, weather, lifestyle, etc. Except once in a while, when a headline catches my attention, and I find some really amazing sports story, or a really interesting lifestyle profile, etc.

Now I'm not saying you want a newspaper model for your BIble software -- some of you don't! -- I'm just explaining what we were going for.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/11235#Comment_11235

So our hope was that you'd see something interesting, then click on it, after which you could read it in full-context, use popups, menus, features, etc.

I did exactly that and was introduced to many things in my resources; or even resources themselves that I would never have otherwise...I like that approach.

The varying headlines sizes are to be more newspaper like, and to attract the eye. We could make this very regular, uniform, and not busy -- but that would be contrary to the whole point, which is to put a lot of options in front of people to catch their interest.

I agree..anything but a huge block of the same font.

It's clear from the feedback here that not everyone likes that, so we're reconsidering it. But the goal was to be newspaper like. The goal was also to not offer something highly customizable, because that's contrary to the goal of introducing people to new things. If I ordered a "custom" newspaper, I'd only see business and local news. I never care about sports, weather, lifestyle, etc. Except once in a while, when a headline catches my attention, and I find some really amazing sports story, or a really interesting lifestyle profile, etc.

Again...you succeeded and i like it....I've found something almost every day that I could dive into that I never would have found through a PG or a BWS....

I say....leave as is....

Now I'm not saying you want a newspaper model for your BIble software -- some of you don't! -- I'm just explaining what we were going for.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/11235#Comment_11235

The goal was also to not offer something highly customizable, because that's contrary to the goal of introducing people to new things. If I ordered a "custom" newspaper, I'd only see business and local news. I never care about sports, weather, lifestyle, etc. Except once in a while, when a headline catches my attention, and I find some really amazing sports story, or a really interesting lifestyle profile, etc.

Thanks for the reply Bob.

My daily Newspaper comes in several sections. There are a couple (some days several) that I never even pick. They still give me choices by grouping all related material together. Maybe I could send daily devotionals to the back page.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/11235#Comment_11235

Just to explain our thinking... the hot-spots aren't live in excerpts, nor do they display whole articles, nor do they offer right-click functionality, etc. because they're there to get you to jump into the book itself. It would take a lot of code to re-create all the standard book functionality in the Home Page, and it would still never be the whole book. So our hope was that you'd see something interesting, then click on it, after which you could read it in full-context, use popups, menus, features, etc.

Bob,

I understand that it may not be possible or be way too much effort to recreate the functionality of the regular article on the homepage. Could I suggest then that the department responsible for creating these excerpts follow the standard practice of both Newspapers and academic resources of placing in brackets information which is absolutely necessary to understand the quotes. For example, replace vv.13-14 with ...[Rev 11:13-14]...

My interest is in understanding the excerpt and thereby being interested enough to click through.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/11554#Comment_11554

The devotional More Light on the Path really does not play at all well with the Home Page. This happens with great regularity at certain window sizes.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/11235#Comment_11235

5) I like having a large picture on the home page - sometimes there is sometimes there isn't. I can't work out the logic behind it. The pictures are something that make me click and read.... I'm not sure why they are one of the first things bumped from the page.

My favourite element in the Home Page design is the appearance of pictures, I think that this is especially true of the line drawings from 1000 Bible Images and the new Infographics because they provide desperately needed white space.

On my 10" netbook, with the program maximised, I get no pictures at all. Often when I change the window sizing on my notebook (19" external monitor) all the pictures disappear. Sometimes, I have to go to page two or three to find the pictures. There seems to be a bit of a problem with the algorithm for placing these elements.

Simon’s Brother

The varying headlines sizes are to be more newspaper like, and to attract the eye. We could make this very regular, uniform, and not busy -- but that would be contrary to the whole point, which is to put a lot of options in front of people to catch their interest.

Unfortunately this has the total opposite effect for me..it turns off my interest.. there is just stuff splashed everywhere with no ryhme or reason.. some of it gets broken across pages and because it is not organised uniformally its very difficult at first to work out where it continues on the next page (i hate this with print newspapers also!)

Its like coming out of a movie theater after a three hour movie, the eyes are blinking and working overtime as they try and adjust to the sudden change in light levels... this is what happens when that newspaper page, lacking uniformity flashes up...

I do appreciate your thinking and give you top marks for that but visually it just aint working for me... how about some skins for those who prefer a more uniform layout along with something a little softer than the bright white background.

It's clear from the feedback here that not everyone likes that, so we're reconsidering it. But the goal was to be newspaper like. The goal was also to not offer something highly customizable, because that's contrary to the goal of introducing people to new things. If I ordered a "custom" newspaper, I'd only see business and local news. I never care about sports, weather, lifestyle, etc. Except once in a while, when a headline catches my attention, and I find some really amazing sports story, or a really interesting lifestyle profile, etc.

But isn't customization the whole point of RSS news feeds..select the areas of interest to you and don't get bothered with stuff that's not important to you...some like a bit of everything and others are more discerning....it just a bit concerning when it seems only one group is considered in the feature design.

Now I'm not saying you want a newspaper model for your BIble software -- some of you don't! -- I'm just explaining what we were going for.

Once again let me say I like the idea, don't let that get lost in what I am saying that I don't like...but please don't loose site of those dislikes either....

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/13150#Comment_13150

I am with Andrew Bob regarding varying sizes of headlines. Again, from the perspective of someone with visual limitations, the different text sizes makes it hard to read and difficult on my eyes. As a graphic designer, I understand wanting a certain "feel" to something, but practicality in a Bible software is a bit more important. I am also disappointed that nothing has been done to improve the washed out colors. I am really hoping folks in my situation will get some relief in that area.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/13150#Comment_13150

there is just stuff splashed everywhere with no ryhme or reason..

The articles are laid out top to bottom, left to right, with "features" pushed into the four corners.

Just as in a paper newspaper, shorter headlines often get bigger fonts ("They win!" is in bigger type than "Man finds alligagator in backyard kiddie pool" because one headline size would make one of these look funny. For reasons not having to do with alligators.)

There is an element of randomness, to break up the monotony. Our point here isn't to make an easy to read linear list. I know some people do prefer that, but we're aiming at what we believe is the larger audience of people. (The fact that you admit hating how print nespapers do this, too, inclines me to believe that our disagreement may be just your preference. Print newspapers have had great success with this style for around 100 years, around the world and in many culture. I'm guessing that if people found them as annoying as indicated here, they'd have reverted to uniform headline size a long time ago...)

Again, it's good to get the feedback, and we'll probably be tweaking this in the future, but I doubt we'll have time (or inclination) to re-invent it before release.

On things like contrast... it's a tough problem. Design is subtle, people have different opinions and tastes, and (even bigger problem) they have different hardware, display, and lighting settings. On top of that, there's color blindness (in a significant number of men), and other vision difficulties. What seems clear to some people is muddy to others, and vice versa. (I like our beige chrome, for example, but always want the books themselves black on white. I am amazed that anyone would ever want to read text on a gray background, but I know lots of people consider white window backgrounds too white.)

We are looking into some type of "high contrast" theme, which just pushes all the colors further apart on the contrast spectrum, and we'll see if we can tweak the defaults a bit, too.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/13761#Comment_13761

Bob,

once again...thanks for explaining your position and goal.

It took me a few days to warm up to the homepage but I really like it now...I've read things that would have staying buried in my library forever were it not for the attention grabbing headline on startup.

I have to agree; the colors are a little muted for my taste....just veering further into the contrast envelope would do it for me...it's not horrible..just "less than my optimum preference." [:D]

I can't imagine what it's like to be in the position of birthing a piece of software for so long and then invite criticism...I'm not sure I have the temperment.

Thanks again for all of your hard work and remember..as long as I'M SATISFIED WITH IT...then you're work is done [;)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/13792#Comment_13792

I can't imagine what it's like to be in the position of birthing a piece of software

That is because you are a man.

Now that software does not come on floppy disks, I hear the birthing process is much less painful.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/13799#Comment_13799

I think it looks something like this

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/13761#Comment_13761

Again, it's good to get the feedback, and we'll probably be tweaking this in the future, but I doubt we'll have time (or inclination) to re-invent it before release.

Bob, here you have (at least) one European opinion [:)]: I like your innovative idea of the Homepage. It is very clever way how to get me find some great stuff I have in my Library. I like the style and differences of font sizes etc. It doesn't make me feel it is overwhelming or annoying. The opposite is true. I am sure it would be possible to do it different way, but the way you chose is good IMHO. I am sure you will tweak it as time goes. But no need to do it now. We need to get used to it and enjoy the surprises we find. Good job. Thank you Bob. Enjoy Paris. God bless you.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/13761#Comment_13761

Again, it's good to get the feedback, and we'll probably be tweaking this in the future, but I doubt we'll have time (or inclination) to re-invent it before release.

.....

We are looking into some type of "high contrast" theme, which just pushes all the colors further apart on the contrast spectrum, and we'll see if we can tweak the defaults a bit, too.

Thank you for considering these things...I appreciate not everything can be attended to before release but do hope this does happen at some point.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/13761#Comment_13761

Again, it's good to get the feedback, and we'll probably be tweaking this in the future, but I doubt we'll have time (or inclination) to re-invent it before release.

.....

We are looking into some type of "high contrast" theme, which just pushes all the colors further apart on the contrast spectrum, and we'll see if we can tweak the defaults a bit, too.

Thank you for considering these things...I appreciate not everything can be attended to before release but do hope this does happen at some point.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/13761#Comment_13761

The articles are laid out top to bottom, left to right, with "features" pushed into the four corners.

Just as in a paper newspaper, shorter headlines often get bigger fonts ("They win!" is in bigger type than "Man finds alligagator in backyard kiddie pool" because one headline size would make one of these look funny. For reasons not having to do with alligators.)

There is an element of randomness, to break up the monotony. Our point here isn't to make an easy to read linear list. I know some people do prefer that, but we're aiming at what we believe is the larger audience of people. (The fact that you admit hating how print nespapers do this, too, inclines me to believe that our disagreement may be just your preference. Print newspapers have had great success with this style for around 100 years, around the world and in many culture. I'm guessing that if people found them as annoying as indicated here, they'd have reverted to uniform headline size a long time ago...)

The more time I spend with the home page the more frustrated I become. This is not because I am opposed to the principle - on the contrary, I think it is a great idea. Rather, it has been very poorly executed.

1) It does not pay attention to the principles of Newspaper design. A newspaper would never push a major article to the bottom left of the page. I think everyone understands the idea of lesser articles being "below the fold." The reason for this has nothing to do with the fold but with the way in which eyes track across a page of articles. We expect the major item to be in the top left followed by a secondary and even tertiary item to its right. Our eyes then track down to the bottom left before moving to the bottom right corner.

2) It is not simply that shorter headings get larger fonts. Font size of headings in newspaper articles are always related to the importance of the article. Headings are often abbreviated so that they can be given the proper weight for their importance. It is complete unclear how font sizes relate to anything on the home pages.

3) I have never read a newspaper which uses an italic for headings. Headings are always either normal weight or bold.

4) Headings must tell us something about the article. Reading research (which is what I studied for my doctorate) tells us that there is an "contract" between authors and readers - implicit in that contract is that the heading will fairly summarise what is to follow. Many of the headings tell us nothing - "The Dating of the Letter", for example - what letter? I actually feel manipulated into reading the article rather than invited to read it.

5) The layout of a newspaper is never random. It is the predictability of a newspaper which is part of its appeal. We know where to look on a page for the most important articles, which pages to look at for very important news, which sections of the paper to go to for articles on topics of special interest. One only has to read the letters' page of a newspaper after a redesign to know how unexpected change to a layout disturbs people - this is also why much research is done by newspapers before they change their design. It frustrates me that with the new home page I have to go hunting for the pictures, that the devotionals appear in different places each day, that I will never know where the book of the day is...

6) The home page is desperately in need of more white space. While there may have been an increase in the lead-in space, the space between columns is way too small.

I love newspapers. I read several different newspapers every week. I have read newspapers daily in every country in which I have lived. I have never read a newspaper with a layout like the home page.

In fairness the lack of white space makes it a bit like a few of the older established American newspapers, most of which are going broke...

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/14709#Comment_14709

Damian, that is a well stated critique that summarizes some of the points I have tried to bring up, but with nowhere near the clarity and insight as you bring. Thanks for this. I hope there is an integration of your thoughts into the Home Page "newspaper".

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/14709#Comment_14709

I agree -- it's not as good as a paper newspaper. Because every page of a paper newspaper is layed-out by hand, and this page is automatically built. We'll keep working on it, and have some things left to do, but it's not going to be perfect.

For what it's worth, we consulted the Society of Newspaper Design's book featuring their annual award winners to get layout examples, and italics are used in headlines in some styles. And, on screen, "below the fold" is the area you scroll to, or on the next page. Everything that fits on the first screen is "above the fold".

The headlines can't be "read" by the layout engine, so there is some randomization in headline size. Moreover, some headlines (those for excerpts, for example) are chosen for use "in context" in a handout, and don't work as well stand-alone. Other than making multiple headlines for different purposes, this is a harder problem to solve.

We'll keep tweaking it, though.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/14963#Comment_14963

I agree -- it's not as good as a paper newspaper. Because every page of a paper newspaper is layed-out by hand, and this page is automatically built. We'll keep working on it, and have some things left to do, but it's not going to be perfect.

For what it's worth, we consulted the Society of Newspaper Design's book featuring their annual award winners to get layout examples, and italics are used in headlines in some styles. And, on screen, "below the fold" is the area you scroll to, or on the next page. Everything that fits on the first screen is "above the fold".

The headlines can't be "read" by the layout engine, so there is some randomization in headline size. Moreover, some headlines (those for excerpts, for example) are chosen for use "in context" in a handout, and don't work as well stand-alone. Other than making multiple headlines for different purposes, this is a harder problem to solve.

Thanks for the explanation; I guess we aren't as up to date on print design as we thought we were [:$]

George Somsel

I very much like the new homepage (though like very many, the initial encounter was not as favourable - it seemed very busy - more like the New York Times than the type of newspapers we have in Australia).

I too like the new Home Page. I never used the Home Page in 3.0, but now I look forward to seeing what has been added for the day.

I appreciate the American Minute excerpt, but one thing about it does bother me. While I'm as patriotic as any American (unless you call chauvinism patriotism), I don't care to see it labelled as a "Daily Devotional." Firstly, I'm not devoted to the country in the sense in which it is normally used in religious circles. Secondly, there are many non-Americans here; are they to be devoted to another country than their own?

I've noted that some of the links to the Logos blog don't work.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/14963#Comment_14963

italics are used in headlines in some styles

Duly corrected. I was way too sure about that point.

on screen, "below the fold" is the area you scroll to, or on the next page. Everything that fits on the first screen is "above the fold".

My point about "below the fold" was simply to make a comment about the way eyes track when reading a single page. A major item oughtn't be placed bottom left. I'm more likely to read an item on the top left of the second page than on the bottom left of the first page.

I know that the layout must be a complicated thing - I keep changing my window size and, as a result, everything has to be shifted around.

We'll keep tweaking it, though.

Anyway, you have my feedback, what you do with it is up to you.