I would like to suggest that the Lexham marketing team double-check the messaging for potential offensiveness before sending out these emails.
"50% off Ten Commandments ending now"
"Buy Baptism, save 50%"
What could possibly be offensive about the email?
I‘m guessing it might be seen as phrasing in a way that gives the appearance of buying sacraments?
What could possibly be offensive about the email? I‘m guessing it might be seen as phrasing in a way that gives the appearance of buying sacraments?
And maybe the implication of the reduction to 5 commandments? [;)]
Just wait until they make a book about indulgences.
50% off Indulgences
Just asking ... do you actually know what an indulgence is? Do you know that money is rarely involved? or is your humor firmly set in a particular place and time? Can you tell me the relationship between indulgences and tollbooths? And no, I don't find the humor offensive.
I have a rough idea, so I wouldn't even mind buying a book about indulgences at 50% off in order to educate myself.
Anyway, taking 50% off the requirement still sounds good, whether that's money of something else. Like taking 50% off the Ten Commandments, as was suggested.
Or maybe twenty...
I have a rough idea,
Does your "rough idea" begin in antiquity? Indulgence
Just wait until they make a book about indulgences. Just asking ... do you actually know what an indulgence is? Do you know that money is rarely involved? or is your humor firmly set in a particular place and time? Can you tell me the relationship between indulgences and tollbooths? And no, I don't find the humor offensive.
Sproul defined it as: “an indulgence is a transfer of merit. In order to gain heaven, a person must have sufficient merit. If a person dies lacking in sufficient merit to go directly to heaven, he goes to purgatory, the purging place. Purgatory is not hell; it is the place where a person receives loving and sanctifying chastisement. By this chastisement, the person is made righteous enough to enter heaven; in other words, he accrues enough merit to get into heaven. A person might spend five minutes in purgatory or he might spend thousands of years there, depending on the deficiency of merit with which he enters purgatory. However, the Roman Catholic Church came to believe it had the power to give merit to those who lacked it, in order to shorten their time in purgatory.”
Would you agree?
I have a rough idea, Does your "rough idea" begin in antiquity? Indulgence
I’ll go read that. thanks!
Sproul defined it as: [...]
I don't understand the practice of relying on a theologian from one theological tradition to define a term used exclusively by a rather different theological tradition.
X. INDULGENCES1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.What is an indulgence?“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.”81“An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin.”82 The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.83The punishments of sin1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84 (1861; 1031)1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the “new man.”85 (2447)
Please also vote for: https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-book-requests/posts/manual-of-indulgences-norms-and-grants
Like I said about the previous marketing brouhaha, it is a slight bit tone deaf. The phrase "BUY BAPTISM" could be considered problematic to the overly-sensitive who feel they have to defend God's honor given the slightest provocation. Perhaps it conjures images of Simon Magus for some. For me, this would be sufficiently resolved if the word BAPTISM was written as BAPTISM, thus specifically indicating written material rather than the religious observance. I don't see any problem with the sentence at the bottom. While I see this as a microscopic issue, not the least reason being that YHWH is offended by "your" attempts to defend Him as He is 100% comfortable with the fact that He requires no defense, it would behoove FL marketeers to bring discretion to their efforts. Being flippant, punny, cutesy, or clever (all standard marketing tactics), or perhaps merely unthinking and inconsiderate, when marketing what is considered sacred is not an exercise in wisdom.
Very nice! I'll have to go through the individual church father references when time permits.
No, I would not ... there are several inaccuracies in his statement, one so flagrantly off-base as to be comical. I have already given a link to a starting point for understanding indulgencies
Just wait until they make a book about indulgences. Just asking ... do you actually know what an indulgence is? Do you know that money is rarely involved? or is your humor firmly set in a particular place and time? Can you tell me the relationship between indulgences and tollbooths? And no, I don't find the humor offensive. Sproul defined it as: “an indulgence is a transfer of merit. In order to gain heaven, a person must have sufficient merit. If a person dies lacking in sufficient merit to go directly to heaven, he goes to purgatory, the purging place. Purgatory is not hell; it is the place where a person receives loving and sanctifying chastisement. By this chastisement, the person is made righteous enough to enter heaven; in other words, he accrues enough merit to get into heaven. A person might spend five minutes in purgatory or he might spend thousands of years there, depending on the deficiency of merit with which he enters purgatory. However, the Roman Catholic Church came to believe it had the power to give merit to those who lacked it, in order to shorten their time in purgatory.” Would you agree?
Hopefully this doesn’t count as theological debate (feel free to delete if it is) but Sproul seems to have many misconceptions about what the Catholic Church believes.
I think the problem is that when Protestants think of indulgences, they think of the abuses under Leo X, where he very clearly made money the goal of indulgences, exemplified in his promising indulgences to those who contributed to St. Peter's Cathedral, but also keeping money for himself. That doesn't mean that he was justified under Catholicism proper, but it still happened, and it's associated heavily with the Reformation.
Just wait until they make a book about indulgences. Just asking ... do you actually know what an indulgence is? Do you know that money is rarely involved? or is your humor firmly set in a particular place and time? Can you tell me the relationship between indulgences and tollbooths? And no, I don't find the humor offensive. Sproul defined it as: “an indulgence is a transfer of merit. In order to gain heaven, a person must have sufficient merit. If a person dies lacking in sufficient merit to go directly to heaven, he goes to purgatory, the purging place. Purgatory is not hell; it is the place where a person receives loving and sanctifying chastisement. By this chastisement, the person is made righteous enough to enter heaven; in other words, he accrues enough merit to get into heaven. A person might spend five minutes in purgatory or he might spend thousands of years there, depending on the deficiency of merit with which he enters purgatory. However, the Roman Catholic Church came to believe it had the power to give merit to those who lacked it, in order to shorten their time in purgatory.” Would you agree? Hopefully this doesn’t count as theological debate (feel free to delete if it is) but Sproul seems to have many misconceptions about what the Catholic Church believes.
I don’t think you are trying to debate and neither was I. It was just that I read that book very recently so I thought I would ask. The book was “Are We Together?: A Protestant Analyzes Roman Catholicism”. It isn’t in Logos
Correction: Not in Logos yet. Must be a WS conversion
https://www.logos.com/product/200263/are-we-together
St. Peter's Cathedral
Among other things, you mean St. Peter's Basilica, which is not and never has been a cathedral.
The cathedral in (and of) the Diocese of Rome is the Cathedral of the Most Holy Savior and of Saints John the Baptist and the Evangelist in the Lateran, more commonly known simply as St. John Lateran.
St. Peter's Cathedral Among other things, you mean St. Peter's Basilica, which is not and never has been a cathedral. The cathedral in (and of) the Diocese of Rome is the Cathedral of the Most Holy Savior and of Saints John the Baptist and the Evangelist in the Lateran, more commonly known simply as St. John Lateran.
Oops! My fingers were going faster than my brain! My apologies!
All forgiven! These things happen. [:)]
Quite true - as is the secular governments demanding a share of the sales, several protestors criticizing heretical theology as if it were orthodox, . . . i.e. all the complexities of history. However, that is why I asked about tollbooths and gave only an early church link for the doctrine. I have this silly belief that when an abuse is localized in place and time, it should not be spoken of as a universal. I was taught that by a Dominican priest who was incensed by a joke about Jesuits and the Spanish Inquisition -- "that atrocity was ours (i.e. Dominicans)" was his argument. I have the same sense that even our humor has to have an undercurrent of knowledge.
I'm glad we're in sync then. While I can't really speak about Sproul when he speaks on matters outside of the Catholic Church (I'll leave that for those in his denomination to analyze), when he speaks about the Catholic Church he seems to rely on what he learned from non-Catholic sources without verifying whether they were accurate. I don't think he's acting out of malice of course.
I think the problem is that when Protestants think of indulgences, they think of the abuses under Leo X, where he very clearly made money the goal of indulgences, exemplified in his promising indulgences to those who contributed to St. Peter's Cathedral, but also keeping money for himself. That doesn't mean that he was justified under Catholicism proper, but it still happened, and it's associated heavily with the Reformation. Quite true - as is the secular governments demanding a share of the sales, several protestors criticizing heretical theology as if it were orthodox, . . . i.e. all the complexities of history. However, that is why I asked about tollbooths and gave only an early church link for the doctrine. I have this silly belief that when an abuse is localized in place and time, it should not be spoken of as a universal. I was taught that by a Dominican priest who was incensed by a joke about Jesuits and the Spanish Inquisition -- "that atrocity was ours (i.e. Dominicans)" was his argument. I have the same sense that even our humor has to have an undercurrent of knowledge.
I agree completely. I just wanted to throw the referent for the belief out there.
MJ,
Regardless of the starting point, are "indulgencies" biblical? Please cite passages and reasonings. CM
MJ, Regardless of the starting point, are "indulgencies" biblical? Please cite passages and reasonings. CM
MJ may be along shortly, but you don't really have to ask MJ ... start with Peter and 'the keys'. Add miracles/powers to remove demons (forgive sins) ... even by Paul's opponents. Then include the formality of 'received' truth and passing it along.
That is why a 'theology tracer' would be nice in Logos ... I have one in my Bible software.
Added: the 'keys' crosses paths with another path ... unlocking the gates and freeing the prisoners (hades; 2nd Peter I think).
Regardless of the starting point, are "indulgencies" biblical?
Alas, this is straightforwardly a question about a controversial theological matter, and, as such, answering it would cause me to violate the Official Forum Guidelines.
There is a potential related question, however, that possesses answers that fall within them: Can anyone point me to resources sold by Faithlife that address indulgences from a Catholic perspective?
In no particular order:
Indulgentiarum Doctrina - Pope St. Paul VI, 1967.
The Essential Catholic Survival Guide: Answers to Tough Questions about the Faith - Catholic Answers, 2005.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church - 1997.
Unfortunately, Faithlife does not yet offer A Biblical Defense of Catholicism (2003) by Dave Armstrong, which addresses indulgences, among many other topics.
I am delighted that anything I would have been tempted to say about this out of bounds topics has already been said in other's responses.
Faithlife is the MASTER of ABUSIVE marketing. the marketing is nonstop.
I still am shocked (sarcasm, I'm not) at the PASTER POD abomination.
Well, Pastor Pods were custom designed for Piper Professionals. So, they can't logically be snowmen.
I have no idea what you're talking about DMB.
Yep ... that was a toughy. It had a stack of 4 evangel criticisms that FL participates in.
