The SLOWNESS OF LOGOS9, THIS HAS GOT TO BE THE MOST FRUSTRATING SOFTWARE IN THE WORLD

Having used Logos almost since its inception, and having spent tens of thousands of pounds on Logos Bible software books, I must say I am at the end of my tether with this software and its authors. When writing or making alterations to my notes (which are many and an everyday occurrence), a basic and simple function I would have thought, there is a ten second delay on any amendment made or key stroke. This must place LBS at the bottom of the pile for any software in the world. And yes I have a high end gaming computer with 2020 specs, i7 64gb ram blah blah blah.

I am not a computer programmer, but surely there a solution to this persistent and very annoying problem? I appreciate Logos has updated in recent days for computers to utilise their faster processors, but seriously Logos get your act together.

I also use Accordance, and Wordsearch and both function better than Logos in the notes department.

After several years of suffering with this issue can Logos make an attempt to do something serious? Love the graphs and language functions, but are as much use as third nipple if I can not use the notes feature as in other software programs.

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Graham Criddle

Hi David

I just wanted to check if you were using a computer with an Intel 11th generation processor chip?

I'm guessing that is not the issue - as you speak about the problem continuing for several years - but I wanted to confirm.

Martin Waldenvik

I'm also using Accordance more and more because it is so much faster. But it is expensive to keep two separate software up to date. i Am doing all of my searches in Accordance, all deeper exegesis in Logos. But i really would love Logos to be faster and not feel so hogging.
I'm using Logos on three different types of computer, an Apple M1 Mac Mini, and older i7 laptop and a newer i5 NUC, all have nvme disks and minimum of 8GB ram.

David Walsh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1162402#Comment_1162402

Hi Graham yes it is an i7 6700 HQ, with 64gb ram. This is persistent problem with notes, and has worsened with the implementation of Logos 9. Slight speed up with the recent amendment, but not with notes

David Walsh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1162407#Comment_1162407

Yes, for me the main issue is with notes, experiencing major slow down and feels very clunky. It is really expensive to maintain accordance and LBS9, and seriously considering moving to Accordance, but I have 21,000 books on LBS9, so not an easy call. On the whole I love LBS9 and use for several hours every day for translation and commentary work BUT the notes function is awfully poor.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

When writing or making alterations to my notes (which are many and an everyday occurrence), a basic and simple function I would have thought, there is a ten second delay on any amendment made or key stroke. This must place LBS at the bottom of the pile for any software in the world.

Curious about Program Setting for Use Internet ? If Yes, does changing to No followed by restarting Logos have any responsiveness effect when writing or making alterations to notes ?

Curious about storage device hardware ? Logos is a database application with intensive storage interaction (so Solid State Disk noticeably improves responsiveness, albeit application can be frustratingly slow at times).

Keep Smiling [:)]

SineNomine

Just in case it might help: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/187051/1080904.aspx#1080904

Bill Anderson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1162485#Comment_1162485

The one specification you haven't told us about your computer is whether you have an SSD or HDD. As Keep Smiling said, an SSD noticeably improves the responsiveness of Logos.

Sean

It is a horribly slow program. Any complaint about it in the forum will be met with insistent suggestions to buy better harder, especially an SSD. While I'm approaching the point where I see I don't have any option but to get a new system (for this and other reasons), there is no reason Logos has to be so slow, even without an SSD. It's by far the slowest program I use. I personally don't care about how long searches take (they're not that bad, actually), but the system shouldn't hang for 10 seconds whenever I click the Layouts menu etc. There's definitely some sloppy programming going on here.

I don't expect any of this to ever change.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1162526#Comment_1162526

but the system shouldn't hang for 10 seconds whenever I click the Layouts menu etc.

Have you tried to capture the lag and posting the logs? I can think of some ways I could force it to take that long but you are correct that it should not take that long as a matter of course.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1162526#Comment_1162526

It is a horribly slow program. Any complaint about it in the forum will be met with insistent suggestions to buy better harder, especially an SSD. While I'm approaching the point where I see I don't have any option but to get a new system (for this and other reasons), there is no reason Logos has to be so slow, even without an SSD. It's by far the slowest program I use. I personally don't care about how long searches take (they're not that bad, actually), but the system shouldn't hang for 10 seconds whenever I click the Layouts menu etc. There's definitely some sloppy programming going on here.

I don't expect any of this to ever change.

I have to concur. It has always been like this. It's a philosophy baked deep into the DNA of the company. Code first, optimize later. So every time the program gets more complicated, it slows down again, until they prioritize optimizing (after the fact) parts of it that people have complained about the most, instead of designing performance into it from the ground up. There's only so much optimization you can achieve from tweaking code after the fact if it was designed with O(n²) or O(n log n) algorithms where O(n) could have been done if they'd thought about it more at the architectural design stage.

I was a developer at Microsoft for over a decade in the 80s and 90s, and I have a degree in computer science, including a course on theory of computation where we studied algorithm efficiency. I am not a fan of the "code first, optimize later" theory of development. I agree with this blogger who says it comes from a misunderstanding of Donald Knuth's famous quote: "premature optimization is the root of all evil." Another excellent article on this is The Fallacy of Premature Optimization. I don't think they teach software engineers the way they used to back in my day, and it's a pity.

Sean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1162527#Comment_1162527

but the system shouldn't hang for 10 seconds whenever I click the Layouts menu etc.

Have you tried to capture the lag and posting the logs? I can think of some ways I could force it to take that long but you are correct that it should not take that long as a matter of course.

I really should do that, MJ. At one point I had logging enabled, but it seems to have stopped. I need to get it started again and try this.

It frustrates me, though, as some things are quite fast. If I mouse over a hyperlink to a resource, it shows the snippet very quickly, and like I said, search is acceptably fast given my configuration. It's using basic program functions and opening various windows that takes forever...

Darrell Tan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1162533#Comment_1162533

Thank you Rosie for your perspective. I have found Logos slow, and often the advice on the forums is how to tweak one's computer settings or upgrade hardware. While that is practical, it does not address Logos itself. And I find it sad that a mature and leading platform has "always been like this".

There was a point when I was using the mobile app primarily, followed by the web app on desktop, because the desktop program was too slow. Now that I have an SSD, I concur that it is the key upgrade that makes Logos usable. But it is really a pity that Logos falls far behind other software, on HDDs. The lack of speed, and the persistent indexing, make me hesitate to recommend it to someone without sufficient motivation/commitment.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1162538#Comment_1162538

It frustrates me, though, as some things are quite fast.

As a single example, myself, without any knowledge of how frequent the type of problem is, Bradley sped my Verbum up on it's seemingly random sticking points by having me adjust a couple of visual filters, It took me a couple of weeks to figure out the relationship between what he asked me to do and what I was seeing as symptoms but his solution worked. Would I have ever figured it out on my own? Probably not.

Sean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1162545#Comment_1162545

It frustrates me, though, as some things are quite fast.

As a single example, myself, without any knowledge of how frequent the type of problem is, Bradley sped my Verbum up on it's seemingly random sticking points by having me adjust a couple of visual filters, It took me a couple of weeks to figure out the relationship between what he asked me to do and what I was seeing as symptoms but his solution worked. Would I have ever figured it out on my own? Probably not.

Done! I started a new thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/200310/1162549.aspx#1162549

As how it usually goes with you call tech support, the problems didn't seem nearly as bad for this session. I'd appreciate anyone taking a look at the logs, though.

Phil Gons (Logos)

I'm sorry you're experiencing performance problems with Notes. We've had a handful of users report similar problems. We've done some initial testing but have yet to pinpoint the problem. Many users with more notes and slower computers don't experience the same problems, so we've not yet found the common denominator.

The good news, though, is that we're kicking off a performance team right now, and getting to the bottom of this Notes performance issue is at the top of the list. We plan to tackle other performance initiatives, too, once we've solved this one.

Someone may reach out soon to ask some questions and see if we can pinpoint the problem with your set up.

I'm sorry again for this subpar performance. We're committed to getting to the bottom of it.

Sean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1162553#Comment_1162553

The good news, though, is that we're kicking off a performance team right now, and getting to the bottom of this Notes performance issue is at the top of the list. We plan to tackle other performance initiatives, too, once we've solved this one.

This is fabulous to hear, Phil! Thanks for all your help down the years and being sensitive to customer needs.

David Walsh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1162498#Comment_1162498

Hi Graham, it is HDD

David Walsh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1162485#Comment_1162485

Thanks for the reply and encouragement to keep smiling [H]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1162533#Comment_1162533

I don't think they teach software engineers the way they used to back in my day, and it's a pity.

From a huge sample of 1, namely my grandson, I believe the current model is "code first-think second-design never" except for the UI. And yes, after a couple of other jobs, he's become a Microsoft employee and thoroughly brainwashed into their philosophy. I was amused that another grandson who is a "manufacturing engineer" constantly programming machines was taught the rigorous design procedures his cousin needs. Yes, there is a third grandson ... they're part of the generation that gave our family a 51 year gap between the birth of girls or 74 years if you insist they be on the same branch.

David Walsh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1162485#Comment_1162485

I have changed and no change but appreciate the thought

Mike Binks

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1162588#Comment_1162588

Hi David

I have changed and no change but appreciate the thought

Not sure but are you saying that you have changed to a solid-state drive with no performance improvement?

If so attaching logs might allow a better insight as to what is going on.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1162581#Comment_1162581

it is HDD

See Bradley's response to Sean HERE.

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1162581#Comment_1162581

Hi Graham, it is HDD

That it why it is slow when running Logos/Verbum. Full stop/Period.

I have to concur. It has always been like this. It's a philosophy baked deep into the DNA of the company. Code first, optimize later.

Thank you for unearthing that old post of Bob's. I wonder if the sign is still in FL headquarters. Although now I gather almost everyone at FL works exclusively from home.

The good news, though, is that we're kicking off a performance team right now,

YAY!!! [:D]

Bill Anderson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1162526#Comment_1162526

It is a horribly slow program. Any complaint about it in the forum will be met with insistent suggestions to buy better harder, especially an SSD. While I'm approaching the point where I see I don't have any option but to get a new system (for this and other reasons), there is no reason Logos has to be so slow, even without an SSD. It's by far the slowest program I use. I personally don't care about how long searches take (they're not that bad, actually), but the system shouldn't hang for 10 seconds whenever I click the Layouts menu etc. There's definitely some sloppy programming going on here.

I don't expect any of this to ever change.

I'm glad you got some help from Bradley about your issues in the other thread. BTW, since your comment came after mine, I will assume it was in response to it. When I moved from a system with a HDD to SSD I was blown away with the result. With Windows, with Logos -- everything was faster. This was when SSDs were much more expensive than they are now. With the way prices have come down, the recommendation to swap out a HDD with an SSD can breathe life into old computers and make them last a little longer at a reasonable expense. Not all systems will allow you to swap out the HDD for SSD, but it's one thing to consider before investing in a new system.

David Walsh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1162498#Comment_1162498

Having spent several days and £500 pounds to upgrade to an SSD drive, it is still the same! This is shameful [6]

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1165328#Comment_1165328

I found that upgrading to an SSD on a 4-core mostly solved my "speed" problem, but not completely. My last upgrade, I spend $1500 USD on a gaming laptop (MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H 6-core, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max). I don't notice response any more, & it takes less than 15 min to index almost 8000 resources.

I won't claim problem solved, but I don't notice it any more.

David Walsh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1165330#Comment_1165330

Thanks Bill appreciate the response. Mine is a gaming machine, i7 64 GB ram, blah blah blah, but so disappointed that there is no visible improvement. I personally think it is L9 that is causing the problem. It is noticeably differentsince upgrading.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1162533#Comment_1162533

I have to concur. It has always been like this. It's a philosophy baked deep into the DNA of the company. Code first, optimize later.

And it's not just in how they code, it's how they do everything and it's one of my biggest bug bears with this company. They shoot first without even thinking about what questions will be asked later by users, and if they ever think about their user base they hone in on one part of the user base at the neglect needs of the rest.

You have nailed it Rosie. I was never taught to code the way this company does it.

Bob

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1165328#Comment_1165328

David,

Possibly try disabling anti-virus programs and see if that makes any difference. Or disable anti-virus on-access scanning of Logos files.

Bob

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1165342#Comment_1165342

Having spent several days and £500 pounds to upgrade to an SSD drive, it is still the same! This is shameful

It is noticeably differentsince upgrading.

Sorry, I'm confused. Is it still the same, or is it noticeably different now with the SSD?

David Walsh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1165385#Comment_1165385

The PC is noticeably different but not the L9 software

David Walsh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1165365#Comment_1165365

Thanks for the advice Bob, but I really should not seeking to improve L9 performance by hindering the laptops other functions, should I?

scooter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1165361#Comment_1165361

I have to concur. It has always been like this. It's a philosophy baked deep into the DNA of the company. Code first, optimize later.

And it's not just in how they code, it's how they do everything and it's one of my biggest bug bears with this company. They shoot first without even thinking about what questions will be asked later by users, and if they ever think about their user base they hone in on one part of the user base at the neglect needs of the rest.

You have nailed it Rosie. I was never taught to code the way this company does it.

Precisely, Rosie + D2. The owner thinks this is OK. How do we know that?? Because it isn't fixed. The will-power needed to step up is not there. We are invested as clients, + taken for granted, I feel.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1165554#Comment_1165554

Thanks for the advice Bob, but I really should not seeking to improve L9 performance by hindering the laptops other functions, should I?

No, but at some point you will need to experiment if you want to discover why Your installation is different than mine. I encourage you to contact FL directly

Ed Ball (Logos)

there is a ten second delay on any amendment made or key stroke

Hi, David. I can't imagine trying to use notes with a typing delay like that. One of my current tasks is optimizing notes, and I'd love it if we could get to the bottom of this. Are you on Windows or Mac? Does the typing delay happen if the Notes panel is the only panel open? Is there a similar typing delay in Clippings? Or in a Sermon document? Is the delay on every keystroke, or every few keystrokes?

One thing that might help is log files. To make the log files easier to interpret, it would be ideal if you could start the app without loading a layout, do nothing for a minute while the app "warms up", open only the Notes panel (or as many panels as is necessary to reproduce the problem), type into a note such that you observe the delay, close the app, and send the log files with a brief description of how you reproduced the problem. (Here are instructions on creating log files; you can post them here or we can arrange a different way to get them to me.)

Bob

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1165554#Comment_1165554

Thanks for the advice Bob, but I really should not seeking to improve L9 performance by hindering the laptops other functions, should I?

Hi David,

In some cases yes. Anti-virus software can sometimes interfere dramatically with some applications. This was just a suggestion to see if anti-virus software was contributing to the issue. (As JT said, just an experimentation to see what happens). I have in the past, with other software development applications have had to make exceptions in the anti-virus software to stop scanning exe's which were known to be ok.

And I have made an exception in my anti-virus software to not scan Logos because they already do that before publishing new software.

Bob

David Walsh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1165615#Comment_1165615

Morning, thank you for your reply and suggestions, however, after turning of all scanning the performance is not helped at all. There is something seriously wrong with the way the notes section performs. It is definitely its not me but you moment. Helped appreciated anyhow

David Walsh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1165385#Comment_1165385

The PC performs quicker but not L9 notes section

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1165675#Comment_1165675

There is something seriously wrong with the way the notes section performs

Ed Ball is a faithlife employee. You should make sure to read his post and interact with him either in the forums or offline.

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/200286/1165587.aspx#1165587

Phil Gons (Logos)

David, I'd love to hear if 9.6 (now in beta and shipping in early July) improves your situation. See the details on what we've improved.