installation directory is where??????

just installed logos4 (upgrade from 3), followed the email instruction, selected default for the handful of questions asked...... and voila!! logos4 is installed in the "c:\documents and settings\myname\local settings\application data" instead of "c:\program files"

is this a joke? after hours of download/indexing, the 7.9GB of monster is in what directory???? Are you guys seeing the same thing?

thx

dean

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TCBlack

No Joke Dean.

That set up avoids Microsofts "security" settings that prevent programs from writing to the programs directory after setup. Unless you want to constantly click UAC dialogs, this is a better way.

Damian McGrath

just installed logos4 (upgrade from 3), followed the email instruction, selected default for the handful of questions asked...... and voila!! logos4 is installed in the "c:\documents and settings\myname\local settings\application data" instead of "c:\program files"

A number of programs do the same - Google Chrome for example.

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/33488#Comment_33488

just installed logos4 (upgrade from 3), followed the email instruction, selected default for the handful of questions asked...... and voila!! logos4 is installed in the "c:\documents and settings\myname\local settings\application data" instead of "c:\program files"

A number of programs do the same - Google Chrome for example.

BTW. You could probably try the work around for installing on multiple computers to reinstall the program to a directory of your choice without a new mega-download or rebuilding the index. Search the forums for "multiple computers"

Ray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/33472#Comment_33472

Logos should disclose this in advance rather than surprise users with this fact after installation.

Normal Windows procedure is to install new software in an administrative user account (even though you may normally use it in a standard user account) not only because administrative permissions are required for installation but also because doing so enables the software to be used in all standard user accounts on that computer.

I did this with Logos4, only to be surprised after installation to find it was installed in the user/local directory of my administrative user account rather than the typical C:Progams File directory and thus I cannot access this installation from my standard user accounts on the same computer. Instead Logos4 apparently wants to also download and install the program in the user/local directory of EACH standard user account (on that one computer) that wishes to use the program - taking up 8-9GB for each user installation. So if one has five users, that's nearly 50GBs taken up by Logos4 software. Is that correct?

If so that's absurd. If so, that should be disclosed in advance. Do the System Requirements specifications reflect this?

What about resources? Do Logos library resources (i.e. books) also get duplicated for each user account? If so, imagine the space that will take up on one's hard drive.

What about Logos4 indexing? Does that then need to be done for each user account? For my library on my computer, it took nearly 16 hours. So for five users, that would be three and a half days...

Moreover it seems now that I installed Logos4 unnecessarily in my adminstrative account, thereby wasting 16+ hours of my/my computers time and taking up nearly 10GB on my hard drive unnecessarily. Should I now uninstall it? If so, since I don't see a Logos4 uninstall program, I guess I have to use the Windows remove program, which doesn't always work well. I presume that will also remove the indexing and have to be redone, yes?

Needless to say, I'm not happy. I have 20+ applications on my computer, including Logos3, all installed just once in the C:Program Files directory. For some reason Logos4 has to be different and (apparently) be installed multiple times - once in each user account. And yet Logos doesn't see fit to disclose and explain this in advance.

Not good guys. Not good.

JimTowler

Dean,

Yes - in some ways the choice of directory path seemed strange to me too.

HOWEVER, if you think about it, the main program is tiny. Most of the rest is user-specific configuration, settings, collections, notes, search history, and resources licensed to a single user, and indexes of stuff for a single user. Hence, it seems right from that angle, to treat all that as just application data, and unique to the user in question.

For user "." that asked the other question: In principle, none of the data, or resource licenses can be used by the other logins on the PC. The books are licensed to a single user, and the notes, files, prayer lists etc, are specific to that one user.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116232#Comment_116232

I did this with Logos4, only to be surprised after installation to find it was installed in the user/local directory of my administrative user account rather than the typical C:Progams File directory and thus I cannot access this installation from my standard user accounts on the same computer. Instead Logos4 apparently wants to also download and install the program in the user/local directory of EACH standard user account (on that one computer) that wishes to use the program - taking up 8-9GB for each user installation. So if one has five users, that's nearly 50GBs taken up by Logos4 software. Is that correct?

The EULA for Logos4 is similar to that for Libronix so there is no way you can legally load L4 on your computer for 5 users - http://www.logos.com/ArticleViewer/2090 The installation to a user account is to be understood in this light.

Please take the time to identify yourself (display name is edited in your logos.com account user profile).

Ray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116235#Comment_116235

Incidently, I am a single user who lives alone. Yet I have multiple user accounts on my one computer. Most people do likewise ... because Windows recommends it...

Per standard Windows protocol, I have an Adminstrator user account (for all administrative tasks requiring administrator permissions), a Standard user account (which I use daily and precludes administrator permissions - thereby providing a layer of protection from any unauthorized network access), and a Guest user account.

The Guest user account is rarely used. But when used, it does preclude guest access to my private data while allowing them to access their email and surf the web while visiting. As nonbelievers, they don't access Logos (I wish they'd be so inclined.)

So that's at least 2 legitimate user accounts.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most software licenses per computer, not per user (if more than one user per PC)? Google Chrome is free.

So if a family has a husband, a wife, say five kids, and one computer, Logos requires the family to purchase 7 copies of the software and 7 copies of all resources? Think that's reasonable? Not exactly a policy designed to encourage children to discover Biblical resources.

One might say, "But multiple persons can use Logos from one shared user account." Putting aside the inconvenience of doing that, then the licensing policy is not per computer, not per person, but per user account. See any inconsistency there?

(Moreover, can you imagine if every application required users to set up a special user account dedicated solely for all users on that computer to access only that particular software application - but not individuals' confidential personal data? Then like me, most people would have 20+ user accounts on their computer. Is that reasonable?)

Oh, and yes, it apparently is okay to for a single person to use multiple copies of Logos4 on two (or more?) computers. Is it okay for that same person to use multiple copies on the same computer through different user accounts? But then it is not okay for the same person to use a single copy (in the C:Program Files directory) on the same computer through different user accounts? See any inconsistency there?

Still want to defend this policy?

So instead of following long established industrywide practice, Logos4 has it's own practice - differing from Logos3 and to the great inconvenience of it users - and it does not see fit to disclose in advance that not only does this practice require the purchase of duplicate software and resources for each user account but also that this practice requires atypical installation in one or more user account(s) rather than the C:Program Files directory and requires the availability of hard disk space to store duplicate software and resources for each user account.

BTW, the Logos download is nearly 9GB per user on my PC and my user/appdata/local/Logos4 folder is nearly 16GB per user. That's excluding resources which will be much, much more. That's hardly "tiny".

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116269#Comment_116269

Incidently, I am a single user who lives alone. Yet I have multiple user accounts on my one computer. Most people do likewise ... because Windows recommends it...

MS recommends it, but I don't know of anyone who actually does it this way, except those I've met online. I have a computer I share with my wife and son, and have one account: the default, full-access administrator account. This is not what MS recommends, but it is much, much more convenient for all of us.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most software licenses per computer, not per user (if more than one user per PC)? Google Chrome is free.

Most, but not all. I don't have statistics, but on my computer EULA's vary widely. Some are one computer, some are one user, some are 'up to two computers,' some are 'as long as the software is only being used by one person at a time.' This model is not without precedent, and is clearly spelled out in the EULA.

So if a family has a husband, a wife, say five kids, and one computer, Logos requires the family to purchase 7 copies of the software and 7 copies of all resources? Think that's reasonable? Not exactly a policy designed to encourage children to discover Biblical resources.

Not necessarily. Read what Bob says here, and the rest of the thread for that matter:

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/341/3265.aspx#3265

Oh, and yes, it apparently is okay to for a single person to use multiple copies of Logos4 on two (or more?) computers. Is it okay for that same person to use multiple copies on the same computer through different user accounts? But then it is not okay for the same person to use a single copy (in the C:Program Files directory) on the same computer through different user accounts? See any inconsistency there?

The program is licensed to you. You are allowed to use it anyway you like, but the installation defaults limits that usage to what is possible within Windows structural limitations. If you can find a way around that, you may use it any way you can get it to work.

So instead of following long established industrywide practice, Logos4 has it's own practice - differing from Logos3 and to the great inconvenience of it users - and it does not see fit to disclose in advance that not only does this practice require the purchase of duplicate software and resources for each user account but also that this practice requires atypical installation in one or more user account(s) rather than the C:Program Files directory and requires the availability of hard disk space to store duplicate software and resources for each user account.

The installation destination is a-typical for most programs. That's true. For the vast majority of users, this is not an issue, since one user typically means one desktop. For a few it is a problem, but those users are not typical either. How much of this Logos should disclose, and has disclosed (to the careful reader) is debatable (too much information confuses and thereby discourages the average computer user).

Still want to defend this policy?

I don't think it's our place to defend this policy, and I don't think anyone was. I read folks trying to explain it to you, and some of the reasoning behind it, as we understand it. But it's Logos' EULA, they're the only ones that can, or need to defend it.

There was a suggestion above by Damian (his 2nd post), as this may be the solution you're looking for.

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116269#Comment_116269

So if a family has a husband, a wife, say five kids, and one
computer, Logos requires the family to purchase 7 copies of the
software and 7 copies of all resources? Think that's reasonable? Not
exactly a policy designed to encourage children to discover Biblical
resources.

One might say, "But multiple persons can use Logos from one shared
user account." Putting aside the inconvenience of doing that, then the
licensing policy is not per computer, not per person, but per user
account. See any inconsistency there?

Bob Pritchett has responded to their license policy here:

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/341/3265.aspx#3265

It from pre-Logos 4, but it still applies. And see also the EULA that Dave linked to above.

But then it is not okay for the same person to use a single copy (in the C:Program Files directory) on the same computer through different user accounts?

My understanding is that this technical decision, not a policy decision, to allow Logos to update itself and its data regularly. The Program Files directory is protected and would interfere with the way Logos maintains itself:

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/3235/24608.aspx#24608

BTW, the Logos download is nearly 9GB per user on my PC and my user/appdata/local/Logos4 folder is nearly 16GB per user. That's excluding resources which will be much, much more. That's hardly "tiny".

Why do you say that's excluding resources? They are in that directory. The resources and the index files are the bulk of the stuff in the Logos4 directory. The executable install is about 40MB.

Also, would you please your name on the forum? A '.' is rather difficult to talk to [:P]

Ray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116286#Comment_116286

Richard and Todd (and Dave and Jim),

Thank you for your replies and for the links...

I too concur with most if not all that Bob wrote. However, IMHO, I think a standard workstation license (or standard desktop plus notebook license) would be best and the current policy is nonsensical. The reason is that only one user can use a workstation/PC/computer at one time. It is completely irrelevant how many persons - whether one or two or a zillion persons - use the workstation (including software and resources) at different times. It is also irrelevant whether they use it through but one Windows user account or through multiple Windows user accounts.

That said, it sounds like Logos4 is set up this way to facilitate a more robust software application. Presumably the developers have their reasons and deem the benefits to outweigh the negatives. Given their long track record on this great software as well as what looks to be great functionality in Logos4, they deserve the benefit of any doubt - especialy from lay users like me. This notwithstanding, Logos could (and should IMHO) still license per workstation rather than per Windows user account. Personally, since I'm a single user, the license doesn't matter to me. To a family it would.

Moreover, while I can appreciate not wanting to swamp users with disclosures, I do think this change to installation in a user/appdata/local folder instead of the standard C:Program Files is significant enough that it should have be disclosed in advance in some manner. Quite frankly, I feel violated when someone does something unexpected to my computer. It's a lot of work to keep a Windows PC running smoothly. Perhaps the simplest way to disclose this would be when the install destination is typically selected. The new/changed/different default destination could be shown (and recommended) with a link provided to give folks like me an explanation.

No thanks, I'll not install in a Documents and Settings folder as Damian did for that's a folder from which a regularly do data backups. Yeah, I could redesignate the backup procedure to include all subfolders excluding the Logos4 folder, but I don't think it's worth the hassle. Plus I question how that would enable another user account to use the software and doing so would still be in violation of the license.

Yes, you are correct, my resources are included in a subfolder within my user/appdata/local/Logos4 folder. As they are several levels down, I hadn't noticed that they had been copied there from my Logos3/Libronix folder.

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116323#Comment_116323

No thanks, I'll not install in a Documents and Settings folder as Damian did for that's a folder from which a regularly do data backups. Yeah, I could redesignate the backup procedure to include all subfolders excluding the Logos4 folder, but I don't think it's worth the hassle.

Actually, backing up the Logos4 folder is a good idea. It will back up the resources, indexes and user data. I do it regularly. You can restore a working Logos environment fairly easily with it: install the executable from the website, and then copy the backed-up Logos4 directory over the top of the newly created one. It is quick and it avoids downloading resources and indexing.

(BTW, that method of restoring isn't officially supported, but it works, and it is also a good way to install Logos4 on multiple computers, as documented here: http://wiki.logos.com/Quick_Installation_onto_multiple_computers)

Ray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116332#Comment_116332

Todd,

Thanks for the suggestion and link. I essentially tried this process when I moved the Logos4 data, documents, and user files from my Windows administrator user account (where I had installed Logos4 - see my first post) to my Windows standard user acount (where I wish to use Logos4) in an attempt to avoid having to redownload and reindex everything again. Unfortunately, Logos4 ignored these copied files and recreated them in new "random" folders, including redownloading and reindexing everything. Seeing this, I stopped the process, uninstalled all Logos4 components from both my administrator and standard user accounts, and reinstalled Logos4 in the standard user account only. Since I was going to have to spend the time reindexing everything, I figured it best to go ahead and reinstall clean so as the ensure there weren't any installation problems lurking.

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/116323#Comment_116323

No thanks, I'll not install in a Documents and Settings folder as Damian did for that's a folder from which a regularly do data backups.

I have no idea where you got the idea that I installed to a "Documents and Settings" folder as I did not suggest that above nor do I have Logos4 installed this way on my computer.