Interlinear questions...
I do NOT know Greek. I am attempting to learn how to pronounce the Greek words - and my mind keeps reverting to English pronunciations ...
However, in the process of my study I have come across something that I would like an answer to. When you select "interlinears" and select the first three items: Surface, Manuscript and Manuscript (transliterated) I see the following for 1Peter 1:14:
| 14 | As | obedient | s | children | , | do | not | conform | t | to | the | evil | ||||||||||
| ὡς1 | ὑπακοῆς3 | τέκνα2 | ►5 | μὴ4 | συσχηματιζόμενοι5 | ►12 | ταῖς6 | ἐπιθυμίαις12 | ||||||||||||||
| hōs | hypakoēs | tekna | mē | syschēmatizomenoi | tais | epithymiais |
| desires | you | had | when | you | lived | in | ignorance | . | u | |||||||
| ← | • | πρότερον7 | • | ὑμῶν11 | • | ἐν8 | τῇ9 ἀγνοίᾳ10 | |||||||||
| proteron | hymōn | en | tē agnoia |
The New International Version (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2011), 1 Pe 1:14.
I would like to know the meaning of the subscript numbers 1,3,2,4,5, etc., and the inline numbers 5 and 12. It would also be interesting to know the meaning of the "dots" and "arrows" that are there...
Is there an article that would define the meaning of these numbers? Or, am I asking a question that is definitely more over my head than I should even be asking?
Thank you,
Dave \o/
Comments
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The Reverse Interlinear Explorer resource in your library has an overview of the interlinear rows.
The dot mean that there is no equivalent word in the original language text.
The number indicates the order of the words in the original language text.
The arrows without numbers indicate the word is part of the translation of the adjacent original language word.
The arrows with numbers indicate the word is part of the translation of a non-adjacent original language word, and the number refers to the word order number.
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
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FANTASTIC!!! I think I even understood that!!
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David B. Turnidge said:
I am attempting to learn how to pronounce the Greek words
Helpful for pronouncing Greek words is learning vowel dipthongs: two vowels sounded as one.
hypakoēs has four syllables: hy - pa - ko - ēs
agnoia has three syllables: ag - noi - a
Greek Word ἀγνοίᾳ has a dipthong οί and a silent iota subscript ᾳ
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Wow! I was raised on the KJV and use other versions - mostly because I have to (church policy).
I have been studying 1Peter and have said many times that the folks being written to were "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father".
Using other versions I saw this:1 Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
The New International Version (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2011), 1 Pe 1:1–2.
...where the word "elect" is placed AWAY from the word "foreknowledge". My thought process was that the new versions were translated by those who didn't believe in election by foreknowledge and wanted to get the word "elect" as far away from foreknowledge as possible. and then...
1 Pe 1:1 Peter , an apostle of Jesus Christ , a Πέτρος1 → ἀπόστολος2 → Ἰησοῦ3 Χριστοῦ4 Petros apostolos Iēsou Christou To God’s elect , b exiles c scattered d throughout the provinces ►5 • ἐκλεκτοῖς5 παρεπιδήμοις6 διασπορᾶς7 ← • • eklektois parepidēmois diasporas of Pontus , e Galatia , f Cappadocia , Asia and Bithynia , g • Πόντου8 Γαλατίας9 Καππαδοκίας10 Ἀσίας11 καὶ12 Βιθυνίας13 Pontou Galatias Kappadokias Asias kai Bithynias The New International Version (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2011), 1 Pe 1:1.
I see that "elect" is in the CORRECT position in the NIV and others...and the (N)KJV:1 Pe 1:1 Peter , an apostle of Jesus Christ , Πέτρος1 → ἀπόστολος2 → Ἰησοῦ3 Χριστοῦ4 Petros apostolos Iēsou Christou To the 1 pilgrims a of the Dispersion in Pontus , Galatia , Cappadocia , → → παρεπιδήμοις6 → → διασπορᾶς7 → Πόντου8 Γαλατίας9 Καππαδοκίας10 parepidēmois diasporas Pontou Galatias Kappadokias Asia , and Bithynia , Ἀσίας11 καὶ12 Βιθυνίας13 Asias kai Bithynias 2 b elect c according to the foreknowledge of God the Father ἐκλεκτοῖς5 κατὰ14 ← → πρόγνωσιν15 → Θεοῦ16 → πατρός17 eklektois kata prognōsin Theou patros , d in sanctification of the Spirit , for e obedience and f sprinkling ἐν18 ἁγιασμῷ19 → → Πνεύματος20 εἰς21 ὑπακοὴν22 καὶ23 ῥαντισμὸν24 en hagiasmō Pneumatos eis hypakoēn kai rhantismon of the blood of Jesus Christ : → → αἵματος25 → Ἰησοῦ26 Χριστοῦ27 haimatos Iēsou Christou So, I had my "high-horse" kicked out from under me. I think this is going to change my thinking about, probably, many things...Dave \o/0 -
David B. Turnidge said:
I see that "elect" is in the CORRECT position
Word order in Koine is less important because of clause formation with case and number, but have you noticed the little numbers next to the Greek words? The (yellow highlight) "5" indicates that it is the 5th word of the Greek verse. You may notice it is placed in NIV between the 13th and 14th (blue highlight) words of the Greek. A student must ask himself how the 5th word belongs between the 13th and 14th unless there may be some theological reason to do so.
I am NOT stating what I believe is "correct" or "wrong", just raising a question [and showing how the word order indicators in Logos RI can contribute to understanding].
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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You are highlighting the NKJV, not the NIV...
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The NIV and NKJV have Reverse Interlinear alignment that preserves English word order while trying to show translation of Koine Greek (with numeric subscripts showing word order differences).
An alternative to consider is The Interlinear Literal Translation of the Greek (Newberry Interlinear) that has Textus Receptus Koine Greek used by KJV translators (with caution that reading English literal translation is NOT reading Koine Greek - English usually does not show grammatical usage in word spelling while Koine Greek does, which allows Koine Greek words to be rearranged for discourse emphasis - also Koine Greek verbal system is more expressive than English: primary kind of action with secondary time of action)
Πετρος αποστολος Ιησου Χριστου εκλεκτοις παρεπιδημοις Peter, apostle of Jesus Christ, to [the] elect sojourners διασπορας Ποντου Γαλατιας Καππαδοκιας Ασιας και Βιθυνιας of [the] dispersion of Pontus, of Galatia, of Cappadocia, of Asia, and Bithynia, κατα προγνωσιν Θεου πατρος εν αγιασμω Πνευματος εις according to [the] foreknowledge of God [the] Father, by sanctification of [the] Spirit, unto υπακοην και ραντισμον αιματος Ιησου Χριστου χαρις υμιν και [the] obedience and sprinkling of [the] blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and ειρηνη πληθυνθειη peace be multiplied. Thomas Newberry and George Ricker Berry, The Interlinear Literal Translation of the Greek New Testament (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2004), 1 Pe 1:1–2.
Chapter and verse numbering have a number of alignment issues. For example, 1 Peter 1:1-2 is one Koine Greek sentence. The Lexham English Bible has sentence periods that correspond to original sentences: e.g. Ephesians 1:3-14 is one long sentence.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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David B. Turnidge said:
You are highlighting the NKJV, not the NIV...
I'm going to step out because I apparently didn't understand what you are trying to say.
In your use of elipses in https://community.logos.com/forums/AddPost.aspx?ReplyToPostID=1204347&Quote=False
"I see that "elect" is in the CORRECT position in the NIV and others...and the (N)KJV:"
I read this as "and the (N)KJV" was one of the "others", but I now think you were saying that the (N)KJV is CONTRASTED to "NIV and others"
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Yeah, I ellipse a lot... Now that I read it again, it may not be clear. I was saying that the NIV, etc., have it in the "numerical" order - and the KJV and NKJV don't...
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Scary... [A]
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David B. Turnidge said:
I see that "elect" is in the CORRECT position in the NIV and others...and the (N)KJV:
Why do you assume that the order in Greek which depends on declensions and conjugations to show relationships should be the same as English which uses word order to show relationships? Correctness depends on semantics - does it mean the same thing?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Syntax graphs visually show Koine Greek clauses. Caveat: different scholars have different opinions about Greek clause boundaries: e.g. is 1 Peter 1:1-2 one sentence OR two ? (the last five Koine Greek words of 1 Peter 1:2 are a complete thought, which has the verb placed at the end of the sentence for emphasis)
Cascadia Greek Syntax Collection: Graphs and Datasets
The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament
Keep Smiling [:)]
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The only thing I assume...is ignorance. And with some of the fantastic replies that I have received - maybe I'm not so sad that I didn't take Greek...
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Yikes!
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David B. Turnidge said:
maybe I'm not so sad that I didn't take Greek...
My grandfather (born 1870) was of the generation that fought against everyone having to know Greek - you're in good company.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David, I love your desire to learn and Logos sure makes it easier. You might benefit from this book: https://www.logos.com/product/40499/greek-for-the-rest-of-us-the-essentials-of-biblical-greek-second-edition
It is for those who want to understand enough to use Greek tools without learning Greek.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Having been in the data processing field for 40-50 years - Logos is the most complete detailed program I have ever had the privilege of working with. More and more surprises...
Will give the book a try...
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David B. Turnidge said:
maybe I'm not so sad that I didn't take Greek...
Learning Greek provides new meaning for the phrase "That's Greek to me" since I can read some Greek sentences while others are Greek to me.
English verbal system has a primary focus of time while Hebrew & Aramaic verbal system has a primary focus on kind of action. Koine Greek verbs have primary kind of action focus with secondary time of action. My favorite Logos & Verbum desktop feature is visual filter highlighting, which enables original language verbal range to be seen in English (using Reverse Interlinear tagging):
Logos Wiki Extended Tips for Highlighting and Visual Filters includes:
For Hebrew & Aramaic, recommend reading The Biblical Hebrew Companion for Bible Software Users for exegetical insights.
For Greek, The Biblical Greek Companion for Bible Software Users has exegetical insights for grammatical terms.
Learning New Testament Greek Now and Then includes sentence diagramming.
Keep Smiling
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Is the clip that you show a result of your own mark-up, or is it a selection that does all this coloration immediately? The idea of doing it manually is overwhelming. Yikes!
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David B. Turnidge said:
Is the clip that you show
By "clip," do you mean KS4J's screenshot?
David B. Turnidge said:a result of your own mark-up, or is it a selection that does all this coloration immediately?
If I understand correctly, KS4J is using visual filters to automatically highlight those passages. This link provides directions:
https://wiki.logos.com/Extended_Tips_for_Highlighting_and_Visual_Filters#Examples_of_visual_filters
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David B. Turnidge said:
Is the clip that you show a result of your own mark-up, or is it a selection that does all this coloration immediately? The idea of doing it manually is overwhelming. Yikes!
Years ago, Faithlife enabled free sharing of visual filter documents so Thankfully my "mark-up" can be copied and used as desired.
Visual Filters (in three dot menu) combine lots of search results for simultaneous display.
Screen shot does not show many "Logos Greek Morphology - ..." and "Logos Hebrew Morphology - ..." visual filters that are checked for display. Thread => more inductive symbols includes inductive precept insights.
Unchecking "Visual Filters" (in three dot menu) causes all Visual Filter search highlights to disappear.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I don't see "Visual Filters" when I click on the "three dot menu." I have the "Silver" version. Is there some buried way to get to this?
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David B. Turnidge said:
I don't see "Visual Filters" when I click on the "three dot menu." I have the "Silver" version. Is there some buried way to get to this?
If you scroll down towards the bottom of the menu you should see them.
If not, please post a screenshot showing what you see
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I used The Lexham English Bible.
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I don't see my screenshots - except in edit???
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David B. Turnidge said:
I don't see my screenshots - except in edit???
You need to use the paperclip icon to attach them, or use the Amber icon.
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David B. Turnidge said:
I don't see "Visual Filters" when I click on the "three dot menu."
Did you join the faithlife group that KS4J referenced in his posts? If not, read his post again carefully and follow all of the appropriate links.
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Did that work?
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David B. Turnidge said:
Did that work?
It enabled me to see your screenshot but much better to use picture files as opposed to word documents. Then the screenshot appears “in line”
As you say, you aren’t showing Visual Filters. These only actually appear in resources for which Visual Filters have been defined. If you haven’t yet defined one for the resource you are interested in, try that and see if it appears in the menu.
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David B. Turnidge said:
I don't see "Visual Filters" when I click on the "three dot menu." ... Is there some buried way to get to this?
Three dot menu has several sections: "Visual Filters" is the last section.
Suggest following Faithlife Group "Logos Visual Filters"
In Logos or Verbum (on macOS OR Windows), can click Docs => Groups to show a list of Tags
Clicking Tag: "Logos Greek Morphology VF" causes Document list to be filtered:
Visual Filter document(s) can be added by selecting them followed by Clicking "Add to your Docs" or "Add all to your docs"
Also can right click on document for pop-up "Add to your docs"
After Visual Filter documents are added, they should appear in "Three Dots Menu" (if they do not, suggest closing Reverse Interlinear Bible followed by opening Bible then clicking "Three Dots Menu")
Keep Smiling [:)]
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