No Church of Christ???

I hope this is not taken as a complaint because I don't mean it that way.... but...

I notice that there are books and such for Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians... etc and etc....

But... very little (almost nil) for Church of Christ... Is there something wrong with commentaries and other materials that is written by people in the Church of Christ?

I mean.... I know of people in the Church of Christ that use Logos, several in fact.....

Just wondering out loud.... [8-|]

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Morgan

You can find some throughout this thread here. Off the top of my head you'll find NIV College Press Commentaries, works by Everett Ferguson, and the Florida College Lectureships.

Speaking anecdotally, and only in reference to those who identify as non-institutional, I just don't think too many are interested in writing outside of their circle and generally stick with Florida College Press or Truth Publication.

DMB

I hope this is not taken as a complaint because I don't mean it that way.... but...

I'm wondering why folks often precede their rant, with 'not ranting'. People know a rant will follow, as night after day.

I notice Florida College didn't 'keep going'. More from Abilene would be good.

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1197968#Comment_1197968

I hope this is not taken as a complaint because I don't mean it that way.... but...

I'm wondering why folks often precede their rant, with 'not ranting'. People know a rant will follow, as night after day.

I notice Florida College didn't 'keep going'. More from Abilene would be good.

Didn't mean for my question to be a rant..... but maybe I need to learn.....how does one ask a question without it being a rant?[8-|]

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1197969#Comment_1197969

Didn't mean for my question to be a rant..... but maybe I need to learn.....how does one ask a question without it being a rant?

That's easy ... just skip the rant! "I'd really be thrilled with more Church of Christ volumes ... Logos has some, but here's more .... and then your list (voting presumably). Remember, almost no one at Logos is familiar with COC or DOC etc.

Lew Worthington

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1197969#Comment_1197969

Didn't mean for my question to be a rant..... but maybe I need to learn.....how does one ask a question without it being a rant?

No prob. It wasn't a rant and it seemed to be a legit question asked with gentleness and sincerity. 🙂

scooter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1197995#Comment_1197995

Didn't mean for my question to be a rant..... but maybe I need to learn.....how does one ask a question without it being a rant?

No prob. It wasn't a rant and it seemed to be a legit question asked with gentleness and sincerity. 🙂

It was not a rant, xnman.

MJ. Smith

very little (almost nil) for Church of Christ...

This has been noted before:

My suspicion is that the fragmentation of the group - each with their own publishers and authors - makes the movement difficult to work with. I know in a different denomination one publisher refuses to allow their resources to be sold bundled with those of a more liberal publisher in the same denomination. But the threads referenced above (not a comprehensive list) give you a clue as to how to keep the pressure on FaithLife and perhaps help them to wend their way through the fragmentation.

Greg Dement

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1197977#Comment_1197977

Very puzzled by the accusation of a rant?? ….and to tell xnman to “remember, almost no one at Logos is familiar with COC or DOC, etc” as if we all know what Logos is or is not familiar with. Not to rant about rant accusations [:#] [:P]

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198028#Comment_1198028

Very puzzled by the accusation of a rant?? ….and to tell xnman to “remember, almost no one at Logos is familiar with COC or DOC, etc” as if we all know what Logos is or is not familiar with. Not to rant about rant accusations

No need to rant, Greg ... being puzzled is fine.

Kathleen Marie

But... very little (almost nil) for Church of Christ... Is there something wrong with commentaries and other materials that is written by people in the Church of Christ?

Your post is fine. I didn't even notice the beginning, like I do not notice "once upon a time ...". It was fine!

I have taken courses with a few online unaccredited Bible colleges. One of them is Church of Christ. I would love to purchase a Church of Christ package for papers submitted to that school. I only recently learned that here, Church of Christ falls within something called the "Restoration Movement". Okay. I recently got a couple books from the library on denominations because I am so confused. Academics use terms that laypeople never use. In one of the books, Jehovah Witnesses were lumped with SDA. I don't know about academics, but a lot of laypeople are not going to want to see those two groups lumped together in the same package in Logos.

A Church of Christ package is overdue. A package about and by women is overdue. A 1662 Book of Common Prayer with updated spelling is overdue. The 1662 is still the official BCP for the church of England, and there are multiple editions from multiple publishers, and texts in the public domain all with the updated spelling. Logos is making gains with packages by and about African Americans but still lags in resources by and about Africa. There are some things that are overdue. It is not wrong to state that overdue things are overdue.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198048#Comment_1198048

It is not wrong to state that overdue things are overdue.

No, its not. But one also needs to show that there is a sufficient market before calling them overdue - make concrete suggestions for what should be included, round up votes, ensure that related resources are funded quickly. Faithlife runs on the premise that they do not borrow money which, from watching them for a couple of decades seems to mean that they rarely produce resources that will create a market but rather have the market before producing the resources.

Kathleen Marie

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198056#Comment_1198056

It is not wrong to state that overdue things are overdue.

No, its not. But one also needs to show that there is a sufficient market before calling them overdue - make concrete suggestions for what should be included, round up votes, ensure that related resources are funded quickly. Faithlife runs on the premise that they do not borrow money which, from watching them for a couple of decades seems to mean that they rarely produce resources that will create a market but rather have the market before producing the resources.

With power comes responsibility. I am not sure when the lines actually get crossed, when a group has enough power that they have a specific responsibility, but Logos is rapidly gaining more and more power. The worldwide church is impacted by the choices made by Logos. The Logos resources are not equal.

Slums stay slums based on the idea that they must pay for themselves. Often the people outside the slums are comfortable with this. They are not going to borrow or sacrifice to fund a slum that cannot pull itself out of its poverty. Those outside the slum fund their own schools and roads and water pipes, without debt, and running on the premises that they choose. They have the power to do that. At least for awhile. Sometimes, though, after a bit, inequality has ways of imploding and toppling.

I only NEED Logos for the things that I think of as hamster-wheel activities. I know when I get quiet that I do not need Logos to serve and worship God in the ways that I know are most important. I use Logos to write academic papers and be included in the rat-race stuff of the church. The stuff the Bible warns us about. For now, the Lord seems to want me on the wheel. I am here. I am running on my wheel as hard and fast as I can. I try to figure out what I am to do and learn while here.

Safe drinking water and sewerage that does not overflow back up into our homes is overdue in my slum. Speed limits and signs stating those limits are overdue for the 8 lane highway that runs straight through the center of our slum and that results in far too many pedestrian deaths. We are literally dying, but the people in the gated communities say that they would have to change their business models to give us the same standard of living that they enjoy.

Thanks for saying what you did. Until I wrote this out, and compared these two thing to each other, I didn't understand what I do now. Maybe things are not overdue even if people are dying or are highly impactful in a negative way. Maybe what is due and what is just are not the same thing. I will have to think and pray about this. And whatever conclusion that I do come to, I know to refrain from so quickly stating things are overdue in the church. Overdue is part of a just world philosophy that I had given up in general, but still struggle with expecting from the church. Justice in the church is a very controversial topic right now, and always has been, and I need to remember that.

Okay, I admit that I was wrong. There is nothing overdue in Logos. I am not being sarcastic, just ... tired, very very tired. And sad.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198077#Comment_1198077

I suspect that you fell for the common trap - Faithlife is not a ministry; it is a business. It is partially this attitude on the part of the owners that have kept it viable while other Bible software has failed. I'd be surprised if they thought of their position in terms of power. Those of us who are far from the primary theological focus of Faithlife don't expect even our most basic needs to be met by Logos/Verbum, despite constantly pushing for them for a broad range of denominations. Instead, we treat FL as providing a useful tool for a specific segment of our needs. But even when exploring topics that represent the mainstream FL perspective, I find less than 2/3 of my necessary resources available in Logos.

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198048#Comment_1198048

Jehovah Witnesses were lumped with SDA.

Maybe because both send some door to door by twos. One just does it more often. As do others.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198096#Comment_1198096

Maybe because both send some door to door by twos. One just does it more often. As do others.

I didn't know that. We get Jehovah Witnesses ... I always encourage them, even if I don't agree. But I'm impressed, and likely they get a lot of closed-doors.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198077#Comment_1198077

Okay, I admit that I was wrong. There is nothing overdue in Logos. I am not being sarcastic, just ... tired, very very tired. And sad.

Restoration and Church of Christ keep coming up, at least for 12 years that I know of. And there is such fragmentation, that even in the threads, there is often a silence, when the 'wrong' resource is suggested. I think if I worked at FL and wanted to pursue, I'd almost have to go to the primary colleges (as example, a Pepperdine or Abilene, but that quickly illustrates the fragmentation; they'd be different).

Then there's the issue of prepubs that might be introduced ... enough volume? It's not an easy question. The Logos endpoint is likely historical volumes, as with the Latter Day Saints grouping.

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198101#Comment_1198101

Restoration and Church of Christ keep coming up, at least for 12 years that I know of. And there is such fragmentation, that even in the threads, there is often a silence, when the 'wrong' resource is suggested...

I think it's doable, and perhaps not even that hard. Many core resources for Bible study aren't that tied to a specific denomination. I'm thinking of lexicons, grammars, Bible dictionaries, maps, cross-references, Bible translations, original language resources, etc. Many commentaries are widely used beyond their "home" denomination - especially older ones. For instance, every church of Christ I attended as a child had a copy of Barnes' Notes in the church library. Today you'll see a variety of broadly "evangelical" works, as well as C.S. Lewis and other modern Christian classics. I suspect that 60 percent or more of a "Restoration Movement" base package would be general works like that, perhaps leaning a bit more towards Arminian and Baptist works, and a bit less Calvinist and Reformed, than the Standard base packages.

Beyond that, Logos already has a number of works from Restoration Movement writers, as has been pointed out in several previous threads. They don't all come from the same particular strain of the Restoration Movement. Without looking them all up again, I recall that there's a lot of stuff from College Press, a good bit of stuff from Everette Ferguson, the Coffman Commentaries, a large set of the Florida College lectureships, some of Alexander Campbell's writings, the Gospel Advocate commentaries are in pre-pub, a Thomas B. Warren collection, and some other resources that skip my mind at the moment. Granted, there's not enough there to do an "Ultimate" Restoration Movement package, but my sense is that you could put together a pretty solid Silver or Gold level package.

Granted, it wouldn't be tied to any one branch of the Restoration Movement, but I suspect you could say the same thing of the Baptist or Reformed packages. They reflect the broad tradition, but don't line up exactly with the views of any one church within that tradition.

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198135#Comment_1198135

Well... as to the fragmentation..... tell me of a denomination that isn't fragmented by some doctrine or ideology? For example.... Catholics are fragmentized because of Bishops now accepting gay marriages.... and the list goes on with other denominations. We all know this. So to make the argument that materials for the Church of Christ is not present because of fragmentation.... doesn't hold water.

As to members of the Church of Christ that hold different viewpoints.... as I have studied... there are 38,000 different denominations..... could someone please point to a denomination that everyone in that denomination thinks the same way?

So my question is valid.... why are there not more materials for Church of Christ people in Logos? Believe me, there are tons of material available.... [8-|]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198172#Comment_1198172

For example.... Catholics are fragmentized because of Bishops now accepting gay marriages

What faux-news site are you following? Even if some bishops are accepting gay marriages that would not create fragmentation in the Church. Do you have any idea how much continuity exists in the Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox churches? The Maronites (Catholic) and the Antiochian Oriental Orthodox were ready to sign a mutual recognition statement that required two things: (a) an acknowledgement that there was no difference of significance in their beliefs and (b) that the role of the Pope was as it was understood in the tenth century. That is how much two churches separated by geographic and ecclesial structure had split over circa 1600 years. Fragmentation is unwillingness to share communion, recognize baptisms, requiring new church membership rather than a simple registration, unwillingness to work together on projects, ... the Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox churches remain united despite a wide range of beliefs outside the core dogma. The majority of Christianity is not fragmented although there are always some splinter groups who ultimately get absorbed back in ... fragmentation is a characteristic of certain churches especially in particular cultures.

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198181#Comment_1198181

... fragmentation is a characteristic of certain churches especially in particular cultures.

That's doubtless true. Certainly current U.S. culture encourages an individualism where each one of us becomes our own arbiter of truth. And certain church traditions make it easier to set up your own splinter group.

I do think it's fair to say that there's a significant diversity of thought and practice within some of the traditions that FaithLife has targeted with base packages. And to the original point, I also think that a package that drew broadly from the Restoration Movement tradition would be a useful addition to FaithLife's portfolio.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198222#Comment_1198222

That's doubtless true. Certainly current U.S. culture encourages an individualism where each one of us becomes our own arbiter of truth. And certain church traditions make it easier to set up your own splinter group.

I'm skating dangerously near thin theological ice. But weren't the early Restoration advocates, supporters of individual truth (if memory serves, even described as the male gender!). And theologically, with 25 (used to be 30) churches in our phone book, does the Eternal Judge make allowances for selecting the wrong one? Or a preacher who taught the wrong one? Or parents who presumably led their kids astray (picked the wrong one).

I pose these, only to illustrate that there is little in the way of inter-denominational resource discussions in Logos; mostly historical positions. MJ will correct me, but I think the Catholic church mediates, where the COC doesn't. As an example.

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198224#Comment_1198224

I'm skating dangerously near thin theological ice. But weren't the early Restoration advocates, supporters of individual truth (if memory serves, even described as the male gender!). And theologically, with 25 (used to be 30) churches in our phone book, does the Eternal Judge make allowances for selecting the wrong one? Or a preacher who taught the wrong one? Or parents who presumably led their kids astray (picked the wrong one).

I don't want to violate the forum rules by veering off into a theological debate. I will say that - as someone who grew up in and is still a part of the churches of Christ - I find the history of the Restoration Movement to be sadly ironic. As a matter of history, it originated on what was then the U.S. frontier as an effort to back away from some of the existing denominational divisions, using a particular strategy. That strategy (the "restoration plea") involved trying to recreate the doctrine and practice of the 1st century church using only scripture, and not any of the current denominational creeds. Just for MJ, I'll add that what was driving this was not so much the ancient ecumenical creeds, but the much more detailed and expansive doctrinal statements such as the Westminster Confession of Faith and 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith that defined specific denominations. They were seen as barriers to Christian unity.

In some ways this strategy was initially very effective - the Campbell and Stone movements were very different in some important ways, but were able to unite. But long term, the movement fragmented badly. Just looking at them today, if you didn't know the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) had the same historical roots as the more conservative congregations among the churches of Christ, you'd say that they must be entirely unrelated.

And that's just a microcosm of the division we see in the broader history of Christianity. I pray for unity, but how we find it in a fallen world on this side of heaven is beyond me.

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198181#Comment_1198181

What faux-news site are you following? Even if some bishops are accepting gay marriages that would not create fragmentation in the Church. Do you have any idea how much continuity exists in the Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox churches? The Maronites (Catholic) and the Antiochian Oriental Orthodox were ready to sign a mutual recognition statement that required two things: (a) an acknowledgement that there was no difference of significance in their beliefs and (b) that the role of the Pope was as it was understood in the tenth century. That is how much two churches separated by geographic and ecclesial structure had split over circa 1600 years. Fragmentation is unwillingness to share communion, recognize baptisms, requiring new church membership rather than a simple registration, unwillingness to work together on projects, ... the Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox churches remain united despite a wide range of beliefs outside the core dogma. The majority of Christianity is not fragmented although there are always some splinter groups who ultimately get absorbed back in ... fragmentation is a characteristic of certain churches especially in particular cultures.

I have said so much already that the Logos Forum Police Department (LFPD) probably had lined up their radar on me.... But my friend... believe me, we could have a great discussion about some of this.... I appreciate the kindness you showed in replying.

My point was.... that while there is some fragmentation in the Church of Christ... over such doctrines..... other religious bodies have the same fragmentation.... it's the different doctrines that fragmentize. It was called fragmentation because of it happening in the Church of Christ yet it happens to all... And yet Logos seems to have lots of books, materials, etc. for those groups. But I still find the Church of Christ (while having a few books and such) lacking greatly in comparison to others. The Church of Christ doesn't have enough materials to be listed as bonafide group of religious beings as other groups are.

Maybe someone is trying to "convert" me to some other religious group as I have to read other groups materials? Hmmmm..... lol [8-|]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198276#Comment_1198276

The difference is, I suppose, that several handbooks of denominations and encyclopedias end up defining 2 or 3 of the Church of Christ groups' divisions then tell you to mix and match for at least 27 denominations. This is not how other denominations are handled. In the forums, the people using the term "fragmentation" all grew up in or are currently working in the movement. I agree that it would be nice to have more Stone-Campbell resources - suggest and garner votes to get them. Continue to push for a base package but don't forget that the Anabaptists deserve one as well. And factor into the mix my warning that < 25% of Christians count for > 90% of the denominations (rough estimates from membership statistics).

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198277#Comment_1198277

Well.... I could and probably will, suggest some books for Logos to consider.... but from what I've seen already, it's probably a lost cause.

I have built many gig of pdf's. I am slowly converting them into PBs... which is probably as close as I will come to having such material....

Thanks to all for the discussion.....

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198278#Comment_1198278

I hope you have noticed that Calvin Habig has converted a number of Stone-Campbell resources to PB already. eg

Isaac Errett's "Our Position" - Faithlife Forums (logos.com)

Alexander Campbell's Theology-Its Sources and Historical Setting - Faithlife Forums (logos.com)

Prayer in Christian Theology-A.L. Lilley - Faithlife Forums (logos.com)

Thomas Campbell's Declaration and Address - Faithlife Forums (logos.com) etc.

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1198287#Comment_1198287

I hope you have noticed that Calvin Habig has converted a number of Stone-Campbell resources to PB already. eg

Isaac Errett's "Our Position" - Faithlife Forums (logos.com)

Alexander Campbell's Theology-Its Sources and Historical Setting - Faithlife Forums (logos.com)

Prayer in Christian Theology-A.L. Lilley - Faithlife Forums (logos.com)

Thomas Campbell's Declaration and Address - Faithlife Forums (logos.com) etc.

Yes, I have - and I'm very grateful. He's obviously put a great deal of work into it, and created a nice collection of some important historical works. It's a very generous gift to the Logos community.

David McClister

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1197968#Comment_1197968

I notice Florida College didn't 'keep going'. More from Abilene would be good.

For the record, Florida College has submitted the rest of its collection of annual lecture books to Logos. When published, the entire set will be up to date.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1211184#Comment_1211184

I notice Florida College didn't 'keep going'. More from Abilene would be good.

For the record, Florida College has submitted the rest of its collection of annual lecture books to Logos. When published, the entire set will be up to date.

Thanks, David! That's reassuring news.

Now, for Abilene.

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1211184#Comment_1211184

I notice Florida College didn't 'keep going'. More from Abilene would be good.

For the record, Florida College has submitted the rest of its collection of annual lecture books to Logos. When published, the entire set will be up to date.

Thanks... I take heart and have hope! [8-|]

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1211310#Comment_1211310

I have the Spiritual Sword Lectureship books on PDF, also the Spiritual Sword Quarterly Magazine, the Denton Lectureship Books, the Power Lectureships, the MSOP Lectureships along with other books.
It would be nice to have them in Logos format.

There are plenty of resources for at least a silver base package. Hey, that’s how the Pentecostal/Charismatic base package began and then as time went by they got to Gold — Portfolio. There are already 3 or more sets of CoC commentaries in Logos that I can think of (College Press, Coffman and Gospel Advocate). Living Word Series could be added along with others.

The main hurdle is too many publishers and some authors not wanting their books available in digital format because “it’s their retirement“ (whatever they mean by that). So it may not be Faithlife’s fault that we don’t have a COC or Restorationist base package...ironic, isn’t it 🤦🏻‍♂️😁 Oh well, at least I have resources from almost every religious flavor to study the Bible. 👍

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1211189#Comment_1211189

I notice Florida College didn't 'keep going'. More from Abilene would be good.

For the record, Florida College has submitted the rest of its collection of annual lecture books to Logos. When published, the entire set will be up to date.

Thanks, David! That's reassuring news.

Now, for Abilene.

Maybe they have the New Heavens-New Earth N.T. Wright view included in those lectureship books. Also annihilationism doctrine embraced by Homer Hailey and others. I know N.T. Wright’s doctrine in his Surprised by Hope book is being embraced by many COC preachers. N.T. Wright has even been a guest speaker at OCU, maybe Abilene too, I don’t remember, but OCU for sure.

DAL

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1213312#Comment_1213312

I have the Spiritual Sword Lectureship books on PDF, also the Spiritual Sword Quarterly Magazine, the Denton Lectureship Books, the Power Lectureships, the MSOP Lectureships along with other books.
It would be nice to have them in Logos format.

There are plenty of resources for at least a silver base package. Hey, that’s how the Pentecostal/Charismatic base package began and then as time went by they got to Gold — Portfolio. There are already 3 or more sets of CoC commentaries in Logos that I can think of (College Press, Coffman and Gospel Advocate). Living Word Series could be added along with others.

The main hurdle is too many publishers and some authors not wanting their books available in digital format because “it’s their retirement“ (whatever they mean by that). So it may not be Faithlife’s fault that we don’t have a COC or Restorationist base package...ironic, isn’t it 🤦🏻‍♂️😁 Oh well, at least I have resources from almost every religious flavor to study the Bible. 👍

DAL

I'd be interested in all of them.... In my files I have several which I turned to PDF for my personal use. I don't have permission to share them... I wrote letters asking for permission and the main reply was... "once it gets in digital format.. there is not security for it"... I gave up trying.... but I use them for myself.... and I do... often.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1213313#Comment_1213313

Maybe they have the New Heavens-New Earth N.T. Wright view included in those lectureship books. Also annihilationism doctrine embraced by Homer Hailey and others. I know N.T. Wright’s doctrine in his Surprised by Hope book is being embraced by many COC preachers. N.T. Wright has even been a guest speaker at OCU, maybe Abilene too, I don’t remember, but OCU for sure.

I hope we don't speculate too much ... FC generally isn't a 'person'-driven world. But Everett tried hard to rescue Homer. Felt he got too old in his exegesis (I guess):

https://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/eternal_punishment.html

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1213825#Comment_1213825

Thank you for the link, DMB! Lots of good content there 👍😁👌

DAL