Small Strong's Index Bug?

So I searched for H2965 "pluckt off" in Genesis 8:11, and the search results also highlighted "leaves" in Ezekiel 17:9, which is, I think, H2964. Both words appear to be from the same root, H2963 -- all very closely related. I actually wouldn't mind finding related words in the search like this, but since there are other words translated from H2963/H2964, I don't think that was the purpose here. Then again, maybe the Logos software is correct to show "leaves" as H2965? I've looked at a couple of other resources that show it is H2964.

If this is a bug, is it proper to report something this small here?

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Graham Criddle

The mobile app - I don’t have access to my laptop at the moment - has it tagged as H2965. Why do you think it should be H2964?

CRBoone

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1251804#Comment_1251804

The mobile app - I don’t have access to my laptop at the moment - has it tagged as H2965. Why do you think it should be H2964?

I don't really know that for certain, it might be Logos is correct. Something led me to check the Strong's index for "leaves" in my printed concordance and another software application, and they both listed it as H2964 in Eze 17:9. Since the words are so close, I suppose Logos could reflect a correction.

Andrew Batishko

Here's an example from The Complete Word Study Dictionary: Old Testament (nothing special about that resource, it's just the first one I looked up) where it indicates that some think it's 2965 and others think it's 2964.

2965. טָרָף ṭārāp̱: An adjective designating something as freshly plucked, freshly picked, new. It refers to a fresh olive leaf just plucked off (Gen. 8:11). And some prefer to read this word in Ezekiel 17:9 as a fresh sprouted leaf (see 2964).

DBL Hebrew chooses 2965 with an indirect note that BDB chooses 2964.

So, it varies.

CRBoone

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1251808#Comment_1251808

Here's an example from The Complete Word Study Dictionary: Old Testament (nothing special about that resource, it's just the first one I looked up) where it indicates that some think it's 2965 and others think it's 2964.

2965. טָרָף ṭārāp̱: An adjective designating something as freshly plucked, freshly picked, new. It refers to a fresh olive leaf just plucked off (Gen. 8:11). And some prefer to read this word in Ezekiel 17:9 as a fresh sprouted leaf (see 2964).

DBL Hebrew chooses 2965 with an indirect note that BDB chooses 2964.

So, it varies.

Ok, thank you! This leads me to another question, being quite a novice with the software. But is there a way to search for a word such as H2965 that would also list closely related words like H2693/H2694? I realize there would have to be a limit as to "how related" the words could be or the search results could get pretty complicated. I see the limitation of Strong's only gives you the specific match, even though the notation does give you some clues. Or should I search the training vids for something like this? I realize it might also require a feature upgrade at some point.

Andrew Batishko

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1251810#Comment_1251810

is there a way to search for a word such as H2965 that would also list closely related words like H2693/H2694?

I can't think of a good way to do this exactly as you describe. I'm by no means a Hebrew scholar, but your definition of H2965 as being closely related to H2694 seems somewhat arbitrary to me (meaning that the grouping is not innately defined as part of the Strong's numbering system). You could certainly choose to search for multiple Strong's numbers at the same time if you had a definition for which you consider related.

Use something like this if you want all the results to have the same color for the hit highlighting: term:(strongs:H2965 OR strongs:H2964 OR strongs:H2963)

Use something like this if you want the results to have a different color for hit highlighting for each number: strongs:H2965 OR strongs:H2964 OR strongs:H2963

CRBoone

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1251815#Comment_1251815

is there a way to search for a word such as H2965 that would also list closely related words like H2693/H2694?

I can't think of a good way to do this exactly as you describe. I'm by no means a Hebrew scholar, but your definition of H2965 as being closely related to H2694 seems somewhat arbitrary to me (meaning that the grouping is not innately defined as part of the Strong's numbering system). You could certainly choose to search for multiple Strong's numbers at the same time if you had a definition for which you consider related.

Use something like this if you want all the results to have the same color for the hit highlighting: term:(strongs:H2965 OR strongs:H2964 OR strongs:H2963)

Use something like this if you want the results to have a different color for hit highlighting for each number: strongs:H2965 OR strongs:H2964 OR strongs:H2963

Yep, I can do the OR search, of course. I understand that Strong's doesn't tie the words together other than by notation, but it would be helpful if there was such a tool, but I realize that could get complicated.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1251810#Comment_1251810

But is there a way to search for a word such as H2965 that would also list closely related words like H2693/H2694?

Bible Search suggestion is sense:=fresh

FYI: Bible Search for strongs:H2965 , lemma.h:טָרָף , & root.h:טרף.1 find the same two verses.

Bible Sense Lexicon finds related Bible words. Biblical Word Senses Dataset is included in many feature upgrades.

Thread => Does "Bible Sense Lexicon" track with Louw-Nida Semantic Domains ? may be helpful. A Greek lemma with one Strong's Number can have more than one Louw-Nida number, which shows contextual meaning.

Keep Smiling [:)]

CRBoone

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1251825#Comment_1251825

But is there a way to search for a word such as H2965 that would also list closely related words like H2693/H2694?

Bible Search suggestion is sense:=fresh

FYI: Bible Search for strongs:H2965 , lemma.h:טָרָף , & root.h:טרף.1 find the same two verses.

Bible Sense Lexicon finds related Bible words. Biblical Word Senses Dataset is included in many feature upgrades.

Thread => Does "Bible Sense Lexicon" track with Louw-Nida Semantic Domains ? may be helpful. A Greek lemma with one Strong's Number can have more than one Louw-Nida number, which shows contextual meaning.

Keep Smiling

Thank you! This is very helpful and interesting. I need to chew on this for a bit since I'm not well-versed in language study, but I do see the benefit of going beyond just a Strong's search, as helpful as that is to have.

CRBoone

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1251841#Comment_1251841

So I didn't really do my homework very well in the application before I posed my question, as there are additional search options available inline:

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1251844#Comment_1251844

So I didn't really do my homework very well in the application before I posed my question, as there are additional search options available inline:

The right-click menu also allows that Manuscript search as a regular search e.g. Bible.

But now you have really entered the murky world of Hebrew searching because it is not a search for an exact match e.g. match.exact:טָרָ֣ף has one result at Gen 8:11 (where you probably got it). Had you chosen the different word טָ֑רֶף at Job 4:11 you would get the same 35 results. Now try match.exact:טָ֑רֶף - it has different vowel points.

Had you chosen the Lemma at Gen 8:11 i.e. lemma.h:טָרָף, you would get results at Gen 8:11 and Ezek 17.9 (corresponding to strongs:H2965). Two other lemmas correspond to the other two Strongs numbers

CRBoone

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1251852#Comment_1251852

So I didn't really do my homework very well in the application before I posed my question, as there are additional search options available inline:

The right-click menu also allows that Manuscript search as a regular search e.g. Bible.

But now you have really entered the murky world of Hebrew searching because it is not a search for an exact match e.g. match.exact:טָרָ֣ף has one result at Gen 8:11 (where you probably got it). Had you chosen the different word טָ֑רֶף at Job 4:11 you would get the same 35 results. Now try match.exact:טָ֑רֶף - it has different vowel points.

Had you chosen the Lemma at Gen 8:11 i.e. lemma.h:טָרָף, you would get results at Gen 8:11 and Ezek 17.9 (corresponding to strongs:H2965). Two other lemmas correspond to the other two Strongs numbers

I assume the lemma search is the same as the Strong's in most/all cases? I understand that the other 2 lemmas are different words, but they are (at least according to Strong's) related with one being the root of the other 2 (granted, I'm relying on Strong's fallible notes here) -- yet when I run the "root" search it still only returns the 2 verses in the results (Gen 8:11; Eze 17:9) seen in the lemma search. The "adjective" search returns the compilation of verses which have to do with being torn/prey/meat, etc. And from what I can tell, the word expresses the full idea of being freshly torn. In fact, what actually got me started on all of this was a comparison of the KJV against the 1917 Tanakh, which renders the word "freshly plucked."

I realize the forum isn't for Hebrew lessons, so I don't mean to drag out the question. I will practice the various searches to see what I can glean from them, but I definitely see value in these options.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1251871#Comment_1251871

I assume the lemma search is the same as the Strong's in most/all cases?

Mostly yes when the lemma has a Strong's number assignment. FWIW: personally was surprised by lemma.h:טָרָף & root.h:טרף.1 finding the same two verses: had expected root search to find more.

Caveat: Strong numbers were assigned to original language lemma's in the 66 book Protestant Canon. Psalm 22:2 in the Greek Septuagint (LXX) has lemma.g:χλόη (tender grass), which does not appear in the Koine Greek New Testament so lemma.g:χλόη does not a Strong's Number.

Psalm 22:1-3 in the Lexham English Septuagint=>

The Lord shepherds me, and nothing will be lacking for me. In a place of tender grass, there he causes me to dwell. At a river of rest he nourishes me. He turns around my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness on account of His name.

FYI: LXX Psalm 22:1-3 = Psalm 23:1-1 in the Hebrew Bible.

Keep Smiling [:)]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1251871#Comment_1251871

I assume the lemma search is the same as the Strong's in most/all cases?

Unless you have used Strong's all your life, avoid it at all costs. It is a good solution for a particular subset of manuscripts before computers provided a more accurate and thorough solution. Concentrate you efforts on understanding Logos lemmas and roots which will give you much more flexible tools than Strong's ever can.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1251895#Comment_1251895

I assume the lemma search is the same as the Strong's in most/all cases?

Unless you have used Strong's all your life, avoid it at all costs. It is a good solution for a particular subset of manuscripts before computers provided a more accurate and thorough solution. Concentrate you efforts on understanding Logos lemmas and roots which will give you much more flexible tools than Strong's ever can.

My one use for Strong's in Logos dates back to Jun 2011 => searching strong's numbers (along with remembering Strongs & Youngs Concordances being useful decades ago)

Keep Smiling [:)]

CRBoone

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1251920#Comment_1251920

The Logos searches are certainly more comprehensive, though I am familiar with Strong's and understand it has limitations. I may find that I'll use it less and less from this, though I derive some benefit from the notations -- I'm sure there are better resources for those also. I'll include the lemma inline with the Strong's to get a better sense of it.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1251935#Comment_1251935

Limitation of lemma's & Strong's numbering is lack of grammatical insight in variant spellings. English verbs express time of action: past, present, future. Hebrew verbs express kind of action: happened(ing), volitional, command, completed,... (other contextual words express time of action). Greek verbs primarily express kind of action with secondary aspect of time.

The Bible Software Users Companion Pack (2 vols.) has Hebrew and Greek grammatical concept explanations along with exegetical significance.

Years ago my knowledge of Greek & Hebrew was complete ignorance. Caveat: learning Greek gives new meaning to the phrase "That's Greek to me" as now I can read some Greek while other Greek passages are Greek to me.

Keep Smiling [:)]

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1251895#Comment_1251895

I assume the lemma search is the same as the Strong's in most/all cases?

Unless you have used Strong's all your life, avoid it at all costs. It is a good solution for a particular subset of manuscripts before computers provided a more accurate and thorough solution. Concentrate you efforts on understanding Logos lemmas and roots which will give you much more flexible tools than Strong's ever can.

A very careful "But" here... meaning no offense.... I am skeptical of Logos lemmas and roots because of their biases....

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1251982#Comment_1251982

I am skeptical of Logos lemmas and roots because of their biases....

er... ah... Strong certainly built tremenous bias into his system - KJV, Textus Receptus ...

Logos did not build their own lexicon so their lemmas align with the major lexicons as do the roots. Can you give some examples of the bias in Logos lemmas and roots so I can explore your claim? If they are biased by anything except the linguistic theory used by contemporary standard lexicons, I want to know it. I am not generally a fan of Logos tagging being taken at face value but I've had no reason to question there lemmas and roots except for erroneous alignments.

CRBoone

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1251986#Comment_1251986

I'm already seeing benefits with this. I looked up the root lemma for the word "dove" (in the same verse where I looked up "pluckt") -- and the results returned Jonah, mourning, lamentation, sorrow, etc. This is more helpful for me than simply returning the specific lemma / Strong's # (unless that's what I desire to search at the moment, of course).

CRBoone

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1252027#Comment_1252027

One more comment on this just in case other novices come along after me and find this thread -- searches on Strong's numbers, straight English words and Lemmas can be added to note links in order to embed them into your notes. This is similar to adding a search to your favorites, but puts them directly into a verse or topic (or other) note. Very helpful (provided those links don't get changed later).