The Not-so-factual Factbook

Paul Bradshaw
Paul Bradshaw Member Posts: 12
edited November 21 in English Forum

I just purchased Logos 9 Legacy Starter pack and have been using it for 4 days now. So far, I am having a hate/love relationship with it. Besides the fact that most tutorials are geared towards the high-end/high-cost version and leaving me confused as to why I can't get certain features to work, duh! I cannot seem to figure out the Factbook

I am following a tutorial that is on my home page, you know the one where they try to sell you everything, and it states to open the Factbook and type "Baptism" and then select " Baptism Systematic Theology". So I do but I get "No Results". Wait, how is that possible? I just had Systematic Theology opened and was reading it! So I opened the book again and searched "Baptism", I get tons of info. 509 references to be exact! So why can't Factbook do this? Do I need to spend more $$ to have that function work? (Sarcasm)

So what am I doing wrong?

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Comments

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 3,087

    Yep ... me neither.  But don't feel bad ... my library's only about 6,000 or so, and maybe $50K or so.  Pretty tiny.

    But the principle seems to be 'tagging' ... if your Systematic Theology volume 3 isn't tagged for Factbook, it's a  NoBook.  And apparently I'm tagged-free (on Baptism - Systematic Theology).

    My other Factbook complaint (besides not wanting to be fed pre-digested 'facts'), is if you right-click a word that Factbook knows about, Factbook is  MIA.  Even Text Comparison can deduce more than that.  You have to open Factbook ... type in the word (or paste) and off you go.  Really convenient.

  • Paul Bradshaw
    Paul Bradshaw Member Posts: 12

    That's a pretty big library! Mine is more like 176, much left to be desired.

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,089

    So why can't Factbook do this?

    Why can't a flour mill mill logs? The search is showing you places where the word "baptism" appears; Factbook is showing you books on the topic of baptism. Note there is a middle ground in which the search shows you text tagged as on the topic of baptism - the section rather than the entire book on the subject.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Paul Bradshaw
    Paul Bradshaw Member Posts: 12

    Oohhh, sarcasm and funny jokes. Love it. I asked because it's done in the tutorial. So why can't I reproduce it? I'm not asking it to mill logs, just do what the guy in the tutorial did. There is no need for your snark. It isn't helpful. But thanks anyway.

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,089

    So why can't I reproduce it?

    It depends upon what is in your library. I've added a screen shot from my application which may help clarify the situation. I have books meeting the necessary qualifications - their titles should help you see what sorts into which category.

    Sorry my play on apples to oranges rubbed you the wrong way.  I assure you that "snarky" as used from the mid-90's on is outside my vocabulary and behavior.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Paul Bradshaw
    Paul Bradshaw Member Posts: 12

    Yet you get results in your Systematic Theology section. I don't. Maybe I didn't make myself clear. Looking at your screenshot, the books you have in the Systematic Theology, do not have Baptism in their title. Yet they mention Baptism, yes? So they show up. Yes?

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,089

    to check to see if there should be results in Systematic Theologies from your library:

    1. Open a search panel
    2. Select the books tab For resources change all books to systematic theologies book type use the search argument LSTO:baptism run the search - the result should match what you have in the Factbook section
    3. For resources change all books to systematic theologies book type
    4. use the search argument LSTO:baptism
    5. run the search - the result should match what you have in the Factbook section

    If you open your library in detail view, you can click on type to sort the results and see what Systematic Theology books you have - these are the only books that will be considered by either the Search or the Factbook. If you have results in the Search but not in the Factbook you may have found a bug. Note that we are NOT looking for the word "baptism" we are looking for a Lexham Systematic Theology Ontology tag of baptism i.e. a section in a Systematic Theology book discussing the theology of baptism.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Graham Criddle
    Graham Criddle MVP Posts: 32,452

    Yet you get results in your Systematic Theology section. I don't.

    It looks that, according to your screenshot, you don't get a Systematic Theology section

    I think, but am not sure, that this requires an additional dataset - https://www.logos.com/product/183794/systematic-theology-cross-references-dataset - that is available in Logos 10 Bronze Feature Upgrade and above.

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,089

    My other Factbook complaint (besides not wanting to be fed pre-digested 'facts'), is if you right-click a word that Factbook knows about, Factbook is  MIA.  Even Text Comparison can deduce more than that.  You have to open Factbook ... type in the word (or paste) and off you go.

    I don't know how you manage to get it to not give results. After you have selected the tab on the left as to hat information you are talking about, are you clicking the Factbook option near the top on the right side? If there isn't a factbook option that means your selection for type of information on the left is not a type Factbook processes. From your description are you wanting lemma?

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Paul Bradshaw
    Paul Bradshaw Member Posts: 12

    So my Systematic Theology book doesn't belong in the Systematic Theology section? Weird. What if I paid $600? Then would it belong? Rhetorical question.

    I am not a pastor and don't give sermons. I'm just trying to enrich my home church. The Bibles and commentaries work quite well so I guess that's all I need. I'll stop complaining now.

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 3,087

    I don't know how you manage to get it to not give results. After you have selected the tab on the left as to hat information you are talking about, are you clicking the Factbook option near the top on the right side? If there isn't a factbook option that means your selection for type of information on the left is not a type Factbook processes. From your description are you wanting lemma?

    Probably I'm not being clear.  The example below is just a simple one ... reading along .... a word Factbook knows about (untagged) ... right-click it ... everybody knows about the word except Factbook.  I did check to see I'm online (who knows! ... I can even report a typo!).

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,089

    I understand - a selection is to the best of my knowledge never a factbook entry. The entry in factbook always has a tag associated with it. The untagged entries in the drop down menu are always ambiguous asking you to select a type.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 3,087

    I thought we were talking about new users, easy to use, etc, etc.  Smiling.

    But I do really like the auto-lookups on my dictionaries. Factual too! (Bad humor)

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,089

    Systematic Theology book doesn't belong in the Systematic Theology section?

    Without knowing the author & title, I don't know why it doesn't meet the requirement for being in the section. If it doesn't come up as a search results, I doubt any amount of money would change the results. If it is in the search results but not in the Factbook section, then I think Graham is right that an additional dataset is required.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,089

    I thought we were talking about new users,

    New users probably would not expect to go directly to Factbook when Factbook is not listed as a possible action. [:)] I agree with the OP that the training is problematic for those with minimal libraries and feature sets. If someone were to complain that the Logos value-added data appears to lack a data-model to encourage appropriate interconnectivity, I would agree. But, on the other hand, they seem serious about weed-whacking the bugs. I still want to see a turn towards the more experimental visual side of their earlier years and more integrated tools rather than a new tool for every situation.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Kiyah
    Kiyah Member Posts: 2,803 ✭✭✭✭

    Are you a new user or upgrading from a previous version of Logos? The Legacy libraries are just books without features. If you want the Starter or Bronze features, you would need to buy a Logos 10 package. The feature sets come with the current version base packages, or you can buy a feature set stand-alone. They don't come with Legacy libraries.

  • Dave Hooton
    Dave Hooton MVP Posts: 35,674

    Paul,

    Yet you get results in your Systematic Theology section. I don't.

    You need https://www.logos.com/product/166212/lexham-systematic-theology-ontology-dataset which would be cheaper than upgrading to the Silver Features. It will show the single ST book you get with Logos 9 Starter.

    I have a bigger Library and also do not get any results in Books from your Library!

    I think, but am not sure, that this requires an additional dataset - https://www.logos.com/product/183794/systematic-theology-cross-references-dataset -

    This can be purchased at https://www.logos.com/product/53402/systematic-theology-cross-references-dataset

    You can also purchase https://www.logos.com/product/56415/biblical-theology-cross-references-dataset  and each dataset has its own Theologies section in Passage Guide. Both are available in the Bronze Feature Upgrade.

    Dave
    ===

    Windows 11 & Android 13

  • Kiyah
    Kiyah Member Posts: 2,803 ✭✭✭✭

    You need https://www.logos.com/product/166212/lexham-systematic-theology-ontology-dataset which would be cheaper than upgrading to the Silver Features. It will show the single ST book you get with Logos 9 Starter.

    I wonder why there are Systematic Theology topics in the Factbook at all if the user doesn't own the dataset to populate the Factbook entry. That's confusing to the user. Why not just not show the Systematic Theology topics if the user doesn't own the dataset?

  • Dave Hooton
    Dave Hooton MVP Posts: 35,674

    I wonder why there are Systematic Theology topics in the Factbook at all if the user doesn't own the dataset to populate the Factbook entry.

    The ST section does not appear in OP's screenshot, so it is consistent with not having the ST Ontology dataset.

    OP is also missing a See also section because he lacks the necessary features/datasets.

    Dave
    ===

    Windows 11 & Android 13

  • Paul Bradshaw
    Paul Bradshaw Member Posts: 12

    So now my question is this: Did these things come with Logos 9? If so, then why strip it of it's features to only then charge to restore those features? If the answer to the first question is yes, I know the answer and that would just be cheap and dirty on their part. If the answer is no, then, well, I guess I either will give up on the ease of use of certain features or be forced to purchase the dataset.

  • Paul Bradshaw
    Paul Bradshaw Member Posts: 12

    Wait, so I would have to pay $50 just to have Factbook link to a book I already own? Because from what I see, the link you provided contains no new books. Just linking ability. Right? Wow, just wow.

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 3,087

    Right? Wow, just wow.

    Paul, calm down ... you'll have a heart attack.  The tools are designed for a wide range of customers ... some with targeted libraries (me), some with buy-everything libraries, and most, affordable, selected libraries.  Sometimes a tool is a perfect fit and well worth the money.  At other times (yours and mine), it's not.  

    So, basically anything you see, maybe good, maybe later, maybe never.  The dataset ... obviously I don't have it.  And personally, I don't get too excited by the datasets (I probably have some).

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,089

    Did these things come with Logos 9?

    You have all the free features available in Logos 10. "Logos 9 Legacy Starter pack" -- I assume by "pack" you mean you purchased this Logos 9 Starter Legacy Library | Logos Bible Software which is library only and that you are running it on the current free version of Logos i.e. no paid features. I realize that Logos marketing is often confusing. Were you aware that you were only purchasing a library?

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Paul Bradshaw
    Paul Bradshaw Member Posts: 12

    Paul, calm down ... you'll have a heart attack.

    Yes, you are right. I'm just dumbfounded at the prices. I understand charging money for goods and services but......

    I guess I'm just upset because when I purchased what I did, I thought I would get some of the "cool" functionality. In my opinion, they're a little misleading. But maybe it's my fault because I didn't read the fine print.

    But in the end, like I alluded to already, I don't really need it. For the $35 that I spent on the Legacy Starter package I still get some pretty good stuff. 

    $50 [:|]

  • Paul Bradshaw
    Paul Bradshaw Member Posts: 12

    Were you aware that you were only purchasing a library?

    No. No I wasn't and shame on me.

  • Paul Bradshaw
    Paul Bradshaw Member Posts: 12

    Were you aware that you were only purchasing a library?

    No I wasn't. Shame on me for being too excited I guess.

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 53,089

    Wait, so I would have to pay $50 just to have Factbook link to a book I already own?

    Yes, that would be rather silly, wouldn't it? But that is not what you are paying for. You are paying for having the resources screened so that you don't have to skim through every resource that has a particular word (think sequence of letters) but that you know the word is used in the sense that you are looking for and that it is actually the topic of the discussion not an occurrence of the word in passing. In my case, I had nearly 20,000 resources containing the word baptism, a little over 300 of which were on the topic of baptism, and only 100 of which were systematic theology discussions of baptism. That is what the $50 is for. You are correct that for a small library, it has little value and your credulity is justified. However, for a research library, paying for the screening (think natural language processing AI) is well worth the $50.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 3,087

    I thought I would get some of the "cool" functionality. In my opinion, they're a little misleading. But maybe it's my fault because I didn't read the fine print.

    I agree there's quite a bit of misleading boilerplate (and missing boilerplate).  Intensional, probably not (being nice).  More likely going from one disaster to the next (typical business day).

    But for a small Logos platform, as much as I have a bigger one, most of my admiration is for what delivered 'for free'.  And I have Logos, Accordance, and Bibleworks. My Logos favorites:

    - The Multlple Books Display.  Absolutely powerful.  I line my commentaries up next to my Bible.

    - Text Comparison.  In its basic view, it's ho-hum (everyone does it).  But it has some neat features (lining up greek, multiple view, and so forth)

    - Information Panel.  I use that with hover; it quitely goes and checks things

    - Cited By.  I actually have 4 in my main layout.  As I read along in my Bible, it's searching other books for comments, etc

    I suspect each Logosian has their favorites, long before the 'load up'.

  • Paul Bradshaw
    Paul Bradshaw Member Posts: 12

    Were you aware that you were only purchasing a library?

    No. I was not aware.

  • JBR
    JBR Member Posts: 211 ✭✭

    What doesn't seem to have been stated clearly in this thread is what is, in my opinion, stated more clearly in these previous forum posts concerning the same basic question.

    https://community.logos.com/forums/p/195909/1133073.aspx#1133073

    https://community.logos.com/forums/p/198816/1152541.aspx#1152541

    https://community.logos.com/forums/p/212756/1240306.aspx#1240306

    From those posts, it seems clear to me that there is some specific tagging that has been done in order for selections to show up in the "Books from Your Library" part of Factbook. It also seems evident that in order for the part "Systematic Theologies" to be presented in Factbook that a particular dataset is needed. Those two things might assist, in some cases, in identifying particular resources. However, it's worthwhile keeping in mind that the absence of these does not keep us from identifying useful resources through the use of Search. It's frustrating when a particular method is highlighted, particularly in a training video, and then not be able to gain the identical advantage that was demonstrated. I have not made frequent use of Factbook, but when I have and when, in the course of doing so, checked on "Books from Your Library" I have not found results most of the time. I've concluded that I need to a) focus on other aspects of Factbook and b) use Search to identify resources that will help me out most of the time.

    For God and For Neighbor