Where Logos is Headed
Comments
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Marcio Campos said:Donovan R. Palmer said:
The effort put into FactBook needs to be put into Maps.
Said EVERYTHING necessary
And I’m actually not that impressed with Factbook!
DAL0 -
One simple thing we're missing here is the maps we're given to work with have no context. They lack surrounding towns to give bearings as to where you are.MJ. Smith said:I don't make a great deal of use of maps but the present navigation makes sense to me. Not saying it can't be improved ...
Imagine you're given a location on a map with no surrounding streets or landmarks and you're asked to navigate to it. This is I believe the situation we're presented with here. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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MJ. Smith said:
I don't make a great deal of use of maps but the present navigation makes sense to me.
I am studying Joshua 12:7-24 and I see 31 Kings and their cities that Joshua conquered. Find me a map that has these 31 cities or at least a majority of them on that map. Try searching by event and see what you come up with or search the city of Jerusalem and see what you find.
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Works the same for me except for the speed. Takes 4 to 5 seconds for the atlas window to open and put an unpopulated background map in place, then another 10 to 15 seconds for it to populate the map. And then, every selection change once in the atlas usually takes another 10-20 seconds to populate.MJ. Smith said:- I opened my Bible same as you
- I selected and right-clicked on Jericho same as you
- I skipped the squinting - I don't know if it is a matter of eyesight or settings
- I clicked on Atlas
- My Atlas open quickly enough I had no opportunity to get into wait mode
- The orange circle brought my attention to the Jericho location
- As I had linked by town, I had to change the event by selecting Battle of Jericho on the left.
OR as an alternative
- I opened my Bible same as you
- I selected and right-clicked on Jericho falls event
- I skipped the squinting - I don't know if it is a matter of eyesight or settings
- I clicked on Atlas
- My Atlas open quickly enough I had no opportunity to get into wait mode
- As I had not selected a place, I had no orange circle directing my attention
- The map Biblical world - The conquest opened; I had to change the event by selecting Battle of Jericho on the left
I don't make a great deal of use of maps but the present navigation makes sense to me. Not saying it can't be improved ...
My official internet download speed is 200 Mbps, with tests usually showing it running between 220-240 Mbps. The Logos app's internet use (e.g. the atlas) and the Logos forums web site have the two slowest response times of all my internet use. The speed of the Logos forums is "OK" once I'm past the initial loading of the main website. But the speed of the atlas is so off-putting, it always causes me to think twice (or more) before engaging with it. [:(]
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DominicM said:
I truly look forward to what the future brings, however, am sadly resigned to even less offline functionality in the trade off
We certainly feel that trade-off between greater computing power in the cloud, but more control and availability locally. Where possible, we do want to ensure as much offline access as possible. At the same time, some innovations, such as the new experimental search, are currently only possible in the cloud.
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Beloved Amodeo said:
Although you may have a plain and simple reason for presenting this information to forum followers, I'm a bit mystified as to your motivation and timing for this announcement. Are we about to see a hard pivot on any of the three areas you identified? Do you have plans to substantially affect the product line?
You are not about to see a hard pivot. In fact, there's been a slow pivot over the last year or so, and Vik's statement is explaining the direction that's already been set.
The pivot has been that Faithlife has exited church management. This was announced in October, but June 30 (the day Vik posted) was the day when those services were finally shut off. As we made that exit, that meant a refocusing on our bible study apps and leaning much more into the Logos brand.
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Mark Barnes (Faithlife) said:
We certainly feel that trade-off between greater computing power in the cloud, but more control and availability locally.
Mark, regarding this comment from above:
Rick Ausdahl said:The Logos app's internet use (e.g. the atlas) and the Logos forums web site have the two slowest response times of all my internet use.
Is there any chance something can be done for Logos' web site times? Logos sites have been near the worst on the internet for years, which is surprising to me since it's commercially hosted. It's better once in the site, navigating around, in some cases; in other cases, it's not. What are the chances Logos could really do some performance benchmarking/assessment so a plan to improve this could be developed? It wouldn't have to happen overnight, as we have been living with this. But it would be nice to know there is hope for the future.
I just did some tests - 1:15 PM local time, east coast, on a 1GB/40MB internet connection, MacBook Pro; all times are in seconds until the first glimpse of the page to be painted shows up (when stop watch was stopped). Cache was cleared:
Logos.com - 9
Logos Forums - 6
Adobe - 4
M&T Bank - 4
Disney - 2
Twitter - 2
Reddit - 2
Apple Support - 2
Wells Fargo Bank - 2
ESPN - 2
Parallels - 1
Family Radio - 1
Google Maps - 1
Morris Proctor Seminars - 1
Macrumors.com - 1
Xfinity forums - 1
Weather.us - 1
Amazon - 1
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Don Awalt said:
s there any chance something can be done for Logos' web site times? L
Agree. But one trick I learned, was to detach wifi, then re-attach wifi, during a Logos/forum take-forever load. It looks like it's the FL advert-server that being waited on. But I do avoid Logos.com due to the long waits. And spend too much time on the Big-A.
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I appreciate your clear response to my questions they help cast Vik's announcement in its proper context. It motivated me to re-read slowly and over and again Vik's post and I found it to be chiefly encouraging (This time I even followed the links and reviewed them!). I also re-read the responses from my fellow forum followers.Mark Barnes (Faithlife) said:Beloved Amodeo said:Although you may have a plain and simple reason for presenting this information to forum followers, I'm a bit mystified as to your motivation and timing for this announcement. Are we about to see a hard pivot on any of the three areas you identified? Do you have plans to substantially affect the product line?
You are not about to see a hard pivot. In fact, there's been a slow pivot over the last year or so, and Vik's statement is explaining the direction that's already been set.
The pivot has been that Faithlife has exited church management. This was announced in October, but June 30 (the day Vik posted) was the day when those services were finally shut off. As we made that exit, that meant a refocusing on our bible study apps and leaning much more into the Logos brand.
In these readings I identified a few areas to highlight as areas for encouragement, not necessarily in the order presented. I believe leadership is spot on to have as a focus serving and growing alongside seminaries, ministerial teaching institutions, students, and academics. Following the hyperlinks and learning more here was enlightening. In addition, growing in the areas of the app, publishing and sermon creation makes sense.
Focusing on the mission statement and its nexus with the Word of God and the app is an intelligent and practical idea which I identify with and support. I have already made plain my opinion that the app needs attention in its facility in handling maps and graphics. I do hope the team hears this positive criticism and acts accordingly, as I'm not alone in making this observation. If you are reading this I thank you for your indulgence and patience.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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I am hoping that search as it is today will be functional standalone without need for internet? As for innovation requiring the cloud, that might be true for something based upon a ChatGPT type of engine (for now...) but even today the Atlas certainly could and should be available offline. It is not a matter of computing power rather space which I can gladly make as much available as needed. Computing power wise, my M1 Pro can handle things pretty well.
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Mark Barnes, I’m sure you, as a user, agree that graphics have been less than stellar. Now that you are an inside man, is there a way you can help change that? It’s a shame Accordance and even Olive Tree smoke 💨 Logos out of the water when it comes to graphics. Heck, even WORDsearch beat Logos in the graphics department.
Please, help fix and change that 🙏
DAL
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DAL said:
Mark Barnes, I’m sure you, as a user, agree that graphics have been less than stellar. Now that you are an inside man, is there a way you can help change that? It’s a shame Accordance and even Olive Tree smoke 💨 Logos out of the water when it comes to graphics. Heck, even WORDsearch beat Logos in the graphics department.
Please, help fix and change that 🙏
DAL
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For sure atlas. I suspect there are others. I wonder if they are listed somewhere on the site? I am not near my laptop to poke around.
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They are noted in the Help file - marked by [Net]
- wikipedia, opentext links
- web resources section (counseling guide)
- IgniterMedia
- media collections /tool/search
- some help functions
- Bible browser
- Atlas
- text comparison
- auto translation
- factbook tags
- all search
- popular highlights
- send to Proclaim
- morph query document
3 tools recently removed were net only
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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For sure atlas. I suspect there are others. I wonder if they are listed somewhere on the site? I am not near my laptop to poke around.
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MJ. Smith said:
text comparison
Just in case a later searcher, Text Comparison works offline, except for the interlinear function, which aligns the english, using the underlying original language. Interestingly, the TC interlinear function still works fine, with web access off, if the app is started with web access on.
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Faithlife TV could use some love as well. We still don’t have an option to toggle owned videos. Also searching for images today was not great. Using the media search tool isn’t helpful and when searching for scripture turns up hundreds of blank slide templates. It took me a bit to remember to use the regular search tool. These should be combined
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Lots of good feedback in this thread - thank you all for your engagement and suggestions. Mark and team are already reviewing and assessing how we can best address them as we move forward. Please keep the feedback coming!
Mark also did a nice job of addressing the "why" behind the post, and as he noted, the timing aligns with our public sunset of our suite of Church Management solutions last Friday.
Best,
Vik
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Vik Rajagopal said:
Lots of good feedback in this thread - thank you all for your engagement and suggestions. Mark and team are already reviewing and assessing how we can best address them as we move forward. Please keep the feedback coming!
Mark also did a nice job of addressing the "why" behind the post, and as he noted, the timing aligns with our public sunset of our suite of Church Management solutions last Friday.
Best,
Vik
Vik,
Can you please take a look at the feedback on this thread as well: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/216724.aspx
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Yes - we have heard that feedback and our design team is investigating.
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Don Awalt said:
Is there any chance something can be done for Logos' web site times?
It is something we're aware of, and – believe it or not – we have made some improvements recently.
I agree that there's much more we can do, and we're in the middle of a major review of logos.com to see what improvements we should focus on next.
FWIW, one of the problems is that a huge amount of logos.com functionality relies on knowing what you already own, and that makes it extremely difficult for us to add web servers closer to our customers – because even if we did, those servers would need to communicate back to the central licensing server anyway. We've looked at setting up copies of our licensing server in additional regions, and that might happen one day. But it's not easy to have a single source of truth split into many different parts.
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Stephen said:
I am hoping that search as it is today will be functional standalone without need for internet?
For our desktop software, we plan to continue to support offline search in the same way we do today. On mobile, we hope we might be able to improve offline search in the near future (no promises, though!).
But if we release our new experimental search, that will be online only. There's lots of AI magic that's only possible in the cloud. But that wouldn't replace any offline options – those would remain for those that wanted them.
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DAL said:
Mark Barnes, I’m sure you, as a user, agree that graphics have been less than stellar. Now that you are an inside man, is there a way you can help change that? It’s a shame Accordance and even Olive Tree smoke 💨 Logos out of the water when it comes to graphics. Heck, even WORDsearch beat Logos in the graphics department.
I'd certainly agree that it should be possible to click on high-resolution images and see able to see them at full size. There are workarounds in the web app, but they shouldn't be necessary. It's on my list of things to improve (but so are lots of other things, sorry). I've noted the strength of feeling in this thread, so it's already a bit higher up the priority order than it was!
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Mark Barnes (Faithlife) said:
if we release our new experimental search,
You'd better release it ... I've already come to HATE it ... I mean REALLY HATE it because I can only use it on the web ... then I have to open the resource on my desktop to get the necessary functionality (bibliography and links). And I've really become dependent on it to ask questions for queries that would otherwise be very difficult to find the right language for.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mark Barnes (Faithlife) said:Don Awalt said:
Is there any chance something can be done for Logos' web site times?
It is something we're aware of, and – believe it or not – we have made some improvements recently.
I agree that there's much more we can do, and we're in the middle of a major review of logos.com to see what improvements we should focus on next.
FWIW, one of the problems is that a huge amount of logos.com functionality relies on knowing what you already own, and that makes it extremely difficult for us to add web servers closer to our customers – because even if we did, those servers would need to communicate back to the central licensing server anyway. We've looked at setting up copies of our licensing server in additional regions, and that might happen one day. But it's not easy to have a single source of truth split into many different parts.
Thanks Mark for the reply! Not to initiate a design session lol, but maybe just to generate some thought or further brainstorming ...
Given the network/data issues with using the latest customer specific licensing info, what about this -- licensing info doesn't change that often. Why not download/embed it in cookies, some hidden file or even better some small local database, encrypted, on the client machine? Rebuilding it when the library index is rebuilt or when a new install is being created would not add much to the overall resource downloading/indexing time spent, I imagine. If this could be done, then whenever a resource(s) is purchased, a small update could be integrated into the licensing data on the client machine.
Maybe this specific idea doesn't work, but it seems to me that given the data transmission needs that must be constantly required through web site navigation, the only performance-based answer has to be putting that data on the client machine securely and persistently.
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Vik Rajagopal said:
Yes - we have heard that feedback and our design team is investigating.
I would also ask that you look into this issue as well when time permits.
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MJ. Smith said:
They are noted in the Help file - marked by [Net]
- wikipedia, opentext links
- web resources section (counseling guide)
- IgniterMedia
- media collections /tool/search
- some help functions
- Bible browser
- Atlas
- text comparison
- auto translation
- factbook tags
- all search
- popular highlights
- send to Proclaim
- morph query document
3 tools recently removed were net only
Mark (or some other knowledgeable person),
Why does the morph query document require an internet connection and can that change in the future?
EDIT: I found it in the help document, although I'm still not sure why it requires a large database to function.
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Mark Barnes (Faithlife) said:
There's lots of AI magic that's only possible in the cloud.
Thats fine for those who want it. I do not. If for any reason my internet is not working, I still want the software and resources to function OFFLINE. [8-|]
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John said:
...If for any reason my internet is not working, I still want the software and resources to function OFFLINE.
I'm fine with extra "nice to have" features requiring an internet connection, but I strongly agree when it comes to the basic ability to search and use the resources I've downloaded. One simple example is that I completed a seminary degree at night a few years ago, and did much of my study on the subway during my morning and evening commutes. Being able to study on the subway, offline, made the seminary degree possible for me. Otherwise, I simply would not have had the time to do it.
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The majority of work I do with Logos is offline. I do not want to have to connect to the Internet to use Logos. Although the online features are intriguing, Logos does everything I need it to offline.
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MJ. Smith said:Mark Barnes (Faithlife) said:
if we release our new experimental search,
You'd better release it ... I've already come to HATE it ... I mean REALLY HATE it because I can only use it on the web ... then I have to open the resource on my desktop to get the necessary functionality (bibliography and links). And I've really become dependent on it to ask questions for queries that would otherwise be very difficult to find the right language for.
MJ, If you wish, I think it would be really helpful to other users (selfishly, me) if you created a post showing some examples of searches you've created with the experimental engine compared to what you would have gotten (or not gotten) with the traditional engine.
I'd love some more ideas of how to get more out of the experimental engine and the benefits over the traditional engine, if you have the time and the inclination (perhaps an MJ "tip of the day"). For example, what wording of queries gives you better results vs. worse results? My experience with the experimental engine has been uninspiring thus far.
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Mark Barnes (Faithlife) said:DAL said:
Mark Barnes, I’m sure you, as a user, agree that graphics have been less than stellar. Now that you are an inside man, is there a way you can help change that? It’s a shame Accordance and even Olive Tree smoke 💨 Logos out of the water when it comes to graphics. Heck, even WORDsearch beat Logos in the graphics department.
I'd certainly agree that it should be possible to click on high-resolution images and see able to see them at full size. There are workarounds in the web app, but they shouldn't be necessary. It's on my list of things to improve (but so are lots of other things, sorry). I've noted the strength of feeling in this thread, so it's already a bit higher up the priority order than it was!
Great! My prayers are with you and your team 🙏
DAL
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Don Awalt said:
If we are going to that discussion, how about the infamous Evangelical Exegetical Commentary? Introduced in fall 2010, 1st volume ships in June 2011, over 12 years ago! 44 volumes, 13 have shipped. I actually got an email solicitation to buy the package this past week - that's a rather impudent sales tactic for a series that very likely won't be completed in my lifetime - yet with the money paid up front!
As an initial investor, I have long been disappointed with Logos on this project. The entire set was projected to be completed in 2019! Now, in 2023 we cannot even get a response to the question, "Will any volumes be released in the next year?"
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DAL said:
Mark Barnes, I’m sure you, as a user, agree that graphics have been less than stellar. Now that you are an inside man, is there a way you can help change that? It’s a shame Accordance and even Olive Tree smoke 💨 Logos out of the water when it comes to graphics. Heck, even WORDsearch beat Logos in the graphics department.
Please, help fix and change that 🙏
DAL
Yes, please!
I am doing some reading for school that involves a resource with pictures, charts, graphics, etc. I would love to be able to double-click and see the screen filled temporarily. Even Fakebook does that.
Macbook Air (2024), Apple M2, 16gb Ram, Mac Sequoia, 1TB storage
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Mark Barnes (Faithlife) said:
But if we release our new experimental search, that will be online only. There's lots of AI magic that's only possible in the cloud. But that wouldn't replace any offline options – those would remain for those that wanted them.
Mark -
I hope this can be reconsidered. I love the new experimental search. If a user is online in the desktop app, could It not pull from the same sources as the browser-based version? Obviously, it would not work if a user was not connected to the internet.
Macbook Air (2024), Apple M2, 16gb Ram, Mac Sequoia, 1TB storage
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Jerry Bush said:
If a user is online in the desktop app, could It not pull from the same sources as the browser-based version? Obviously, it would not work if a user was not connected to the internet.
I think what Mark is describing is exactly what you are asking for. It will work in the desktop app if the desktop is connected to the Internet.
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Jack Caviness said:
we cannot even get a response to the question, "Will any volumes be released in the next year?"
There should be more frequent communication.
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Jerry Bush said:Mark Barnes (Faithlife) said:
But if we release our new experimental search, that will be online only. There's lots of AI magic that's only possible in the cloud. But that wouldn't replace any offline options – those would remain for those that wanted them.
Mark -
I hope this can be reconsidered. I love the new experimental search. If a user is online in the desktop app, could It not pull from the same sources as the browser-based version? Obviously, it would not work if a user was not connected to the internet.
I'm not in the experimental group.... but if there is a "new experimental search" I'm all for it!!! I contend Search in one of the most important features of Logos.
Let me have it!!! [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
I'm not in the experimental group.... but if there is a "new experimental search" I'm all for it!!! I contend Search in one of the most important features of Logos.
Let me have it!!!
The announcement post has details about how to participate: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/216686.aspx
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Lawrence Rafferty said:xnman said:
I'm not in the experimental group.... but if there is a "new experimental search" I'm all for it!!! I contend Search in one of the most important features of Logos.
Let me have it!!!
The announcement post has details about how to participate: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/216686.aspx
Thanks for that. Believe me, I would love to, it's just that I'm just up to my eyeballs in so many things that I just don't have time right now. But I am excited about it!!
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:Lawrence Rafferty said:xnman said:
I'm not in the experimental group.... but if there is a "new experimental search" I'm all for it!!! I contend Search in one of the most important features of Logos.
Let me have it!!!
The announcement post has details about how to participate: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/216686.aspx
Thanks for that. Believe me, I would love to, it's just that I'm just up to my eyeballs in so many things that I just don't have time right now. But I am excited about it!!
The cool thing about the web beta, though, is that you don't have to install anything, or be in a different "beta channel". You can just click on the link and try it ONCE, which takes 30 seconds. Worth it for the awe, IMO. Then you can wait until it's available in the released product. Hopefully coming to the desktop version sometime soon. I love it already from just a few minutes messing around with it!
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Rosie Perera said:xnman said:Lawrence Rafferty said:xnman said:
I'm not in the experimental group.... but if there is a "new experimental search" I'm all for it!!! I contend Search in one of the most important features of Logos.
Let me have it!!!
The announcement post has details about how to participate: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/216686.aspx
Thanks for that. Believe me, I would love to, it's just that I'm just up to my eyeballs in so many things that I just don't have time right now. But I am excited about it!!
The cool thing about the web beta, though, is that you don't have to install anything, or be in a different "beta channel". You can just click on the link and try it ONCE, which takes 30 seconds. Worth it for the awe, IMO. Then you can wait until it's available in the released product. Hopefully coming to the desktop version sometime soon. I love it already from just a few minutes messing around with it!
Thanks Rosie, I'll give try to give it a spin.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Vic,
It is always good for a company to re-examine its goals and objectives from time to time, and this statement sounds really great...
However, this statement strikes me as utterly ridiculous, unless Logos/Faithlife is intending on radically changing what you offer. This is not a personal criticism of you, or anyone in the company. However, I think there is a significant and radical difference between the words posted here, and what Faithlife/Logos has been attempting to do for the last 20 years or so.
Logos exists to empower believers everywhere to go deeper in their Bible study...
It has been at least 15 years since I felt I could recommend Logos to people who want to "go deeper in their Bible Study." I began using Logos back with version 1. When Libronix came out, it was a huge leap forward in Bible software, and I found it to be pushing the limits of cost and complexity for the average Christian, though it was still accessible. From there, price and complexity continued to expand at an overwhelming, ever-increasing rate. 15 years ago, people on this forum would say, "Yeah, but this software is primarily for pastors and scholars, and pastors need to be willing to pay a premium, and spend significant time learning how to use the "tools of their trade."
At that point, I began getting incredulous looks from most non-professional Christians whom I would suggest Logos to. It was just too expensive. And, when people did buy it, and were not in a field of work where they used computers every day, most would express to me just how foolish they felt it was to have spent the money they did, for software that was largely useless to them. Pastors too, if they were from non-technical fields, were significantly frustrated.
"...and we will continue to make Logos available, accessible, and affordable internationally..."
Recommending Logos to missionaries and pastors in other countries was even more futile. Radically too expensive, and unworkably too complicated for most of them to use.
And over the last 15 years, the software has only RAPIDLY INCREASED in cost and complexity.
I believe that for nearly 20 years, the focus for the developers of Logos has been academia first, computer minded pastors second, and really no one else seemed to have a seat at the table. It was, and continues to be, a great tool for those who spend significant time doing significantly in-depth study, such that it is worth their time to learn the complexity of Logos, and to use what they've learned enough to remember how to use its vast features.
If the goal is to truly "empower Believers everywhere...", then I believe you will need to cut costs radically, and make the program far more intuitive and usable. And, for that to happen, it would indicate a significant change in direction, indeed. Right now, I know of very few Christians not in direct ministry who would be willing to pay for Logos, or who have found it useful to them, personally, or in organizing Bible Studies.
For what it's worth.
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Al Het said:
For what it's worth.
Agree with your writeup. There's some sort of 'wall' between marketing (selling, independent of goals), and app-development (design, independent of goals).
There's the book-producing-selling group (somewhere between 'prepubs', packages and sales). They're typically high-end. Low-end for novels and devotionals.
Then, you have your app-tinkering, with heavy emphasis on 'that's so cute'. Efficiency? Ease of use? Watch another video.
And finally, the make-a-list people (datasets) with periodic discoveries of too-complicated-ness.
But reallistically, I think they're stuck. Labor-wise.
And forum-wise, we're down to 2-3 people that know enough, to answer problems.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
And forum-wise, we're down to 2-3 people that know enough, to answer problems.
This puts the bow on the knotty problem of how this rig works. These people are so kind, so patient; they simply amaze me. God bless those who answer.
I use 1 % of Logos. I'm just starting to use Search/Study/Look Up on the floating palette gizmo.
But, people who have to do work on it are stuck - those not computer aces. I feel badly for them, because they need to produce something on the rig weekly, or right now.
DMB said:you have your app-tinkering, with heavy emphasis on 'that's so cute'. Efficiency? Ease of use? Watch another video
Another astute comment. For me, Fl is saying go jump in the lake, leave your credit card on the shore.
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Al Het said:
For what it's worth.
I also agree mostly with your write up. In other forum on Logos, I have argued that the complexity and sophistication of Logos causes a learning curve that many do not want to go through and simply will not. It's almost like the notion of having a very intelligent teacher that cannot relate to the students in the class. What good is the teacher at that point?
One caveat in all this is the Search function in Logos. I do believe that "when" Logos develops an "easy to use" and "easy to understand" Search function that will increase the value of Logos tremendously, at least with me. What good is the information in your library if you cannot find it?
Recently, I have seen posts that indicate that Mark Barnes and group have been working on a new Search function. This has been exciting news to me. Just think about it.... if we get a new and improved Search that actually works for the none biblically trained (non-preachers and such) that alone will help Logos beyond measure with a lot of people. When this happens, then we will be able to find that piece of information that used to take us "learning Search every time we used it". What a blessing to all users will a new Search be! I'd almost be willing to kiss Mark Barnes' ring for that alone!!! [8-|]
About the cost.... "a laborer is worthy of his wages".... but how much? I do think Logos is the best bible program going.... and I would like it to be around for a lone time.... but if the costs (wages which I pay) are extravagant... well that's another matter. The problem with this is.... I am not in a position to say what is extravagant ... I can only pay for what I can afford and if I can't afford it or don't think I need it, I don't pay. I would like free Logos.... but I know that's out of the question. And I do know that Logos has payment plans to help.... I do think the prices are high.... but I don't know how much I would charge in the same set of circumstances.... so... I pay for what I think I need...
And last.... I came from WordSearch.... which is no longer around.... maybe because they were too cheap?
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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A serious question for Al, DMB, Scooter, and xnman: I don't have one of the free or basic levels of Logos installed so I can't see what Logos looks like/performs like with a package < $250. I agree that when one gets into the paid features, one quickly gets into complexity that those not comfortable with, e.g. Word, find intimidating. But would your description of the problem change if you looked only at the free engine and a handful of resources that stay under $250?
Or put another way, if you spend > $1500 on your software, shouldn't you expect to have to put effort into learning to use it?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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@Al Het
You make some great observations. My trail does not go back as far as yours, mine being to Series X - Scholars Library! Because I started way back then, I bought in during pre-pubs and new version releases over the years as they came out, so I in effect 'grew up' with Logos, I have a huge library after many years and I cannot imagine what it would be like if I started over today. I think it would feel like an overwhelming mountain to climb.
With that said, I can say this, had I not had Logos when I lived in Africa for a while, I would not have been able to do some formal studies. Logos provided me an electronic virtual seminary library for studies which I could not have accessed any other way. Though the challenge at that time was that Logos decided that they were no longer shipping products on CD ROM, so we needed to download materials. This was fine, but because Logos would roll out 3 or 4 GB updates, a small book of 25mb would be queued up behind those updates. On the African internet that I had at the time, this was a real hardship because our internet was so slow. If you go back far enough in these forum messages, you will see some messages where I was begging Bob Pritchard to allow us to selectively update materials because those of us in poor internet connections were happy to wait for the updates, we just desperately needed a few books for our studies. Nothing changed and I managed with our crummy internet, but the point is even back then Logos was targeting a specific academic market in developed situations.
In my mind, Logos' primary market has generaaly been this academic fairly serious crowd. Of all my friends that I know, none of them own Logos and use it actively, except for one, which is someone who is studying at a theological school. It is just too expensive and why would you want to spend a few grand for a decent library in Logos unless you were a professional or student? In my mind, this is why the 'social media' features of Logos have never taken off and Logos will likely never be fully mainstream. Why, because there are other projects which appeal to my friends much better, particularly if they are low cost or free. For example, I just learned of the STEP Bible. (which by the way has a pretty decent Atlas!). There is also E-Sword and if you dig around there are a handful of other small apps for the general public which are free or low cost.
Then you have more specialised products like Accordance and BibleWorks. As much rivalry as there has been between Accordance and Logos, they have always been different products. If you are a hard core textual studies person, there is a LOT going for you with Accordance, but sadly we do not have BibleWorks anymore. Accordance does things with ease with textual studies and exegetics, and I am deeply concerned we will eventually lose it, leaving a gap.
The point is, in the Bible Software market it has always been hard to compare apples to apples. Products whether literally or not, tend to appeal to different audiences. Logos has always had a huge library orientation, and can certainly do some solid exegetical work - theology students and some pastors will love this. Accordance/BibleWorks really appealed to the hard core Biblical languages nerds. When I go all in on Greek, I love to boot it up to dig around the scriptures. It is a different product than Logos.
Then there are a whack of products out there that are more 'mainstream'. It could be argued that Logos does span a bit more into mainstream or has been a mainstream wanna be with its social networking and approachable format, but it is a serious and expensive option. Then there is all the other stuff out there that satisfies my wife, kids and many friends. They won't pay a lot, nor use it every day, but love having it on their phone or laptop for when they do.
So, as Logos moves forward, I think they just need to continue to keep real about who they are reaching. They might not meet the hard core language people, but they will likely not reach the free or next to free basic english packages out there. That is ok. We need different kinds of products for each of these use cases!
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Any discussion of price has to consider the difference between "Bible software" and "an electronic library."
Logos is very accessible as Bible software — there's a free version with helpful search tools and basic resources.
Logos is helpful and accessible as an electronic library, too, as long as one compares the cost of buying the physical books versus the cost of Logos packages.
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