X-post: New Insights Sidebar on the web app
I'm cross-posting this from the web app forums, as it may be of interest to desktop beta testers.
Today we've launched a beta version of a new Insights sidebar on the web app. It's available in all Bibles.
The idea is to (optionally) bring the most useful content from your datasets and library directly into the Bible panel. At the moment, that's just a study bible and a commentary, but we're working on adding new content, too.
We'd love your feedback on this:
- Is it helpful?
- Can you see yourself or others using it?
- What changes would you make?
- What additional information would you like to see?
- Is this worth bringing to desktop or mobile?
Like experimental search, your feedback will determine whether this feature goes away or gets enhanced!
Comments
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
We'd love your feedback on this:
- Is it helpful?
- Can you see yourself or others using it?
- What changes would you make?
- What additional information would you like to see?
- Is this worth bringing to desktop or mobile?
It is not insightful with just a study bible and commentary.
Developing it further would bring it into conflict with the Info tool and the + New Tab. I would welcome the demise of the New Tab as it has never been insightful. It could take over the Info tool, but I would want a choice of Labels as some are not insightful.[:)]
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
- Is it helpful?
- Can you see yourself or others using it?
- What changes would you make?
- What additional information would you like to see?
- Is this worth bringing to desktop or mobile?
Finally!! This is exactly the type of tool the leader of a Bible study needs to have available for all the participants. I know. I'd shut up on that topic in total discouragement.
Yes, it is helpful, very helpful, for many Bible study participants; for some leaders, it is useful to see what the participants are seeing.
Yes, I can see it being used but probably not much by the pastor/seminarian market.
Changes: Make it easy to change which study Bible and commentaries are shown ... easy to the extent that a leader can go back and forth between different resources.
Additional information: I have some ideas but I need to play with it in simulated small group/faith formation situations before giving concrete suggestions.
Yes, this is very much worth bringing to the desktop (laptop for many of us) and mobile app.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
Today we've launched a beta version of a new Insights sidebar on the web app. It's available in all Bibles.
Looks interesting Mark
To help me understand it, is it effectively - at the moment - what could be done today on the desktop by linking a Bible to two separate panels with one having a Commentaries Guide (showing most highly prioritised commentary) and the other showing Study Bibles (again with the most highest prioritised). But also providing a dropdown menu approach to select different resources?
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:The idea is to (optionally) bring the most useful content from your datasets and library directly into the Bible panel.
If my understanding above is correct, how is "most useful content" being determined? Is this going to be based on more than library prioritisation?
For example, the commentary extract at the moment seems to be the first part of the commentary on that verse - as opposed to any determination of what might be most insightful from that analysis. Is anything further than that likely to be possible?
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Can you see yourself or others using it?
I probably would use it - and I expect others would as well
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Is this worth bringing to desktop or mobile?
Yes - very much so
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MJ. Smith said:
Changes: Make it easy to change which study Bible and commentaries are shown ... easy to the extent that a leader can go back and forth between different resources.
That seems to be there already with the dropdown menus - or were you asking for something different?
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I like the ease of access for when doing simpler reading and layouts. For larger projects a larger layout is the answer, but for devotional or simpler lesson prep it's nice to have quick access to certain resources.
I understand why they open as linked sets, but I'm not sure if I like it. I don't generally link my commentaries to my bible as clicking on cross references then makes the commentary jump to a new section.
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MJ. Smith said:
Additional information: I have some ideas but I need to play with it in simulated small group/faith formation situations before giving concrete suggestions.
Don't let this drift into anything other than a very simple straightforward small group/everybody screen. The only things that might be added without making it too complex are:
- a dictionary ... one can get there from the Bible but that is not obvious to a basic user
- an optional cross-references for those really into them, but I'd keep the number limited (perhaps just to the Bible selected or at most from the top Bibles)
The biggest danger is ruining the screen by adding too much into it. Keep the rural, high-school graduate user as your focus. I say rural to indicate that at home they may have limited web access and that the older population not a ease with computers is larger because internet access spread first in the city and then to rural areas. Put another way -- think of this as appealing to the users you currently don't have or those with < $150 invested who aren't regularly using it.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Keep the rural, high-school graduate user as your focus. I say rural to indicate that at home they may have limited web access and that the older population not a ease with computers is larger because internet access spread first in the city and then to rural areas. Put another way -- think of this as appealing to the users you currently don't have or those with < $150 invested who aren't regularly using it.
Then I do not see the point of migrating it to desktop with its greater sophistication i.e. Info tool and layouts. The web Info tool is only Word Information, so investing more into the Insight feature could see it replace Info. Investing more into a potential desktop feature will duplicate Info features and it already duplicates some of the Plus tab (New Tab) features.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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MJ. Smith said:
a dictionary ... one can get there from the Bible but that is not obvious to a basic user
What would a dictionary card display? Topics associated with that verse? Or just Biblical People/Places/Things?
MJ. Smith said:The biggest danger is ruining the screen by adding too much into it.
We're acutely aware of that, so it's good to hear you echo the danger. We very much want to focus on the things that are most important. If people want more than that, they'll need to run a passage guide (which we may add as a final card/link).
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
What would a dictionary card display?
I was thinking of exactly the same information as one gets from the select > lookup in the Bible text because that sequence is not obvious to inexperienced computer users.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I was thinking of exactly the same information as one gets from the select > lookup in the Bible text because that sequence is not obvious to inexperienced computer users.
At the moment, Insights only supports Bible verses, not individual words. We're considering if/how we should add support for individual words.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
- Is it helpful?
Yes, very much so!
- Can you see yourself or others using it?
Yes I would.
As a small group leader I see this as a big step in making Logos an option and much simpler for those in my groups to use and to help them in studying the Bible.
Adding the Experiment search panel next to this makes a great setup for study.
As a side, I would suggest some changes to the Fundamentals and Starter Base Package to go along with this for new users;
Take out some of the books (for price reasons) that don't tie into what these features will bring out (including the new search) and add in books such as study Bibles, more one volume commentaries, more dictionaries, lexicons and the like that will enhance these features.
- What changes would you make?
- What additional information would you like to see?
As MJ mentioned, a dictionary/Lexionary card using some sort of click or hover on a word option to display a gloss and link to the Word Study guide without a right click. I mention hover where the info would pop up up in a card to the side not in an annoying way in the text
- Is this worth bringing to desktop or mobile?
Absolutely!
Too soon old. Too late smart.
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I'm another small group leader excited to see this tool to introduce group members to Logos. I especially appreciate it in the web app, so users can get started in an instant, no one has to install new software -- and no indexing! [:D]
Dell XPS 8930/Intel Core i7-8700@3.20GHz/32GB RAM/Win10 Pro
Surface Pro 7/Intel Core i7-1065 G7@1.30GHz/16 GB RAM/Win10 Home
iPad Air/Pixel/Faithlife Connect
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Dave Hooton said:
Then I do not see the point of migrating it to desktop with its greater sophistication
Primarily for the leader but also for the more computer savvy in the group. One needs to meet the needs of the entire rural population, some of whom live in small towns with full amenities, some of whom are well-educated.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mark,
Another issue that bears stating, is there exists Bible readers whose primary approach to Bible study is to let the Bible interpret the Bible and who therefore most benefit from cross references as their first best method of interacting with the software.
I don't think that I'm alone in this leaning. Dictionaries for words are also important. Commentaries are a late feature of my study method. Give us our due please.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.5 1TB SSD
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Beloved Amodeo said:
Another issue that bears stating, is there exists Bible readers whose primary approach to Bible study is to let the Bible interpret the Bible and who therefore most benefit from cross references as their first best method of interacting with the software.
It's great to hear your feedback. We agree 100%, and our developers are already working on that.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
At the moment, Insights only supports Bible verses, not individual words.
BTW, Mark
The web app continues to ignore Advanced Prioritization and regard NET as my #1 bible when it only supports NET Notes. The next bible (ESV) is my #1 for all other resources.
Conversely, if I mess around with Top Bible (Set Preferred Bible....on Desktop), I have to undo the setting manually as it also ignores Advanced Prioritization.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I would certainly agree with cross references being my primary tool for Bible study!
Bob
Bob Deacon
Ipad Air 2 (ios 9.7 (0014)
Windows 11 inside edition
Samsung S23
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Bob Deacon said:
I would certainly agree with cross references being my primary tool for Bible study!
I go with larger units, primarily parallel passages or related pericopes ... the latter Logos does not support well.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
We'd love your feedback on this:
- Is it helpful?
- Can you see yourself or others using it?
- What changes would you make?
- What additional information would you like to see?
- Is this worth bringing to desktop or mobile?!
Yes, it's helpful and I can see myself and others making use of it. In fact, I have a similar layout that I use with the desktop app and so this offers a quick version for the web app that is similar.
The "More >>" (and "<< Less") are handy to expand and minimize the content in the card, but what I would like to see with the " More >>" expansion is the ability to continue scrolling the resource. As it is you can see part of the associated article, but especially in commentaries, you are limited to a small part of the total article. I realize that you can tap (click) on the commentary title and open a linked tab with the commentary but at that point the screen space devoted to the commentary begins to overwhelm the available real estate and since the panel sizing is more limited in the web app (at least as far as I've been able to control it) I haven't found a happy point. I think being able to scroll the commentary (and study Bible) content within the cards of the Insight panel would be the way to go.
The cross-references suggestion that someone else made is a good possible addition.
As far as other platforms I think the mobile is a more definite yes because there, like the web app, a quicker and likely more temporary use condition would be a real benefit. The same could be said for the desktop, but as it is my place for more intense study, where I'm more likely to set up custom layouts, I'm less likely to use a quick start like this.
For God and For Neighbor
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Yes, I definitely see this as useful. Years ago when I first ported all of my STEP books over to WordSearch, one of the things I really liked about it is that on the bottom of the screen there were icons that would light up linked to my main resources that were relevant to the particular verse I was reading. It was simple, but potent and it did not distract me when I was in a reading mode.
I am a big user of the information pane and cited by tool, but they are too heavy for this kind of use case. I think this tool as currently imagined fills a niche that I would use when I am reading chunks of scripture and want some snippet prompts along the way. I also think that for some users they would find this concept pretty much all they would want to use, particularly if they have a small library and primarily use their Bible software as a digital study bible.
As said by others, keep it focused and potent, and don't stray into the functionality of Explorer. Less is more. I'd love to see this on the desktop App. Between this and the new search in beta, these are two very interesting value adds to my workflows. I think others might as well.
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Ok Mark, the latest iteration is approaching the sweet spot, however, adding quick access to Cross References remains important as you will see from my e.g. below. If you are unable to add it to Insight, put it in the spacious real estate of Quick actions, at the top where it will do the most good.Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Beloved Amodeo said:Another issue that bears stating, is there exists Bible readers whose primary approach to Bible study is to let the Bible interpret the Bible and who therefore most benefit from cross references as their first best method of interacting with the software.
It's great to hear your feedback. We agree 100%, and our developers are already working on that.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.5 1TB SSD
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
We'd love your feedback on this:
- Is it helpful?
- Can you see yourself or others using it?
- What changes would you make?
- What additional information would you like to see?
- Is this worth bringing to desktop or mobile?
It is very intutiive and creative. It is not helpful though with just a study bible and commentary. It needs to be expanded out and more focused. Focus and concision is key. For users who are older and more precise, this is a fantastic tool. Although I can see it being used, I doubt the seminarian and or pastoral users will use it frequently due to precison needed. It is worth bringing to desktop or mobile.
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Beloved Amodeo said:
adding quick access to Cross References remains important
I agree. We intend to add an extra card for cross-references sometime in the next month or two.
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