FL: Please stop selling witchcraft books written by witches
Faithlife, please don’t sell books like this. The author is a practicing witch, the book is about
how to practice witchcraft, and the “moon books” imprint webpage says its books are about “paganism and shamanism.”
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Yeah, that's one I'm not likely to buy. I believe there's a need for Christians to understand modern paganism, but this isn't the kind of book I'm personally looking for FaithLife to provide.
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It’s there, if you need it buy it, if not, then don’t buy it. It’s a business and unless you believe in witchcraft and that it actually works, then worry about it, but if you don’t believe then there’s nothing to worry about 😂
DAL
Ps. It should comfort you to know it’s white magic 🪄, the good kind, not the dark kind 🧙
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It's very likely this was unintentional. In case you're unfamiliar with the paradigm: resources in ebook format are fed into an automated process for formatting and publishing. (My understanding is that it's a lot like sausage.) The trade-off for the low price (with low margins for Logos) is that it might not justify much editorial oversight and fastidious formatting. I appreciate your post and they'll probably pull this, but don't be surprised if you get a tongue-cluck or two from other users.
macOS (Logos Pro - Beta) | Android 13 (Logos Stable)
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DAL said:
... and unless you believe in witchcraft and that it actually works, then worry about it, but if you don’t believe then there’s nothing to worry about
You sound hauntingly like a writer in the NT. Let me see, who could it be? Oh gee .. Paul!
I guess better buy it, before FL gets spooked! Oops, a prepub. Spook time. Actually, here in New-Age-Land, it's good to understand the thinking, before discussing Jesus. Most Christians haven't a clue. Once, in Bible class, a visitor asked about channeling Jesus. Reaction: frowns.
EDIT: Actually, Jeremiah made a similar argument as Paul. Paul's was a little more sophisticated.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I have a bit more trust in Christians' ability to choose their books wisely. I find it insulting that others think I'm so ignorant and weak that they need to protect me -- or that pagan or shaman are more dangerous than heretics.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I find it insulting that others think I'm so ignorant and weak that they need to protect me -- or that pagan or shaman are more dangerous than heretics.
Arguing that a particular book isn't a good choice for an digital Christian bookstore is not the same thing as saying that anyone is "so ignorant and weak" that they need to be protected. I also don't think anyone is arguing "that pagan or shaman are more dangerous than heretics."
Ultimately, FaithLife has to decide on the business strategy that they believe best fits with their mission and target customer base. I suspect I'm looking for a more curated set of offerings than you are. That doesn't mean you're wrong. But there's also nothing wrong with my expressing my own preferences as a customer.
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EastTN said:
But there's also nothing wrong with my expressing my own preferences as a customer.
Expressing to remove a title that another Logos user might need? Or simply liking/not. I think you're the latter. The OP is the former.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:EastTN said:
But there's also nothing wrong with my expressing my own preferences as a customer.
Expressing to remove a title that another Logos user might need? Or simply liking/not. I think you're the latter. The OP is the former.
Perhaps. But let's be fair. If my favorite specialty woodworking store started stocking cheap import tools, I'd almost certainly suggest they stop carrying them. There's nothing nefarious about that. If someone wants a cheap "use once and discard" tool, they can go to Harbor Freight (I've bought a few "disposable" tools there). But that's not what I look for from a specialty retailer.
Of course, you and MJ may think of Logos more as a "big box" store that carries everything - which is fine. That may ultimately be the model FaithLife adopts. But again, I don't think arguing that they should be more selective is a personal insult against anyone.
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EastTN said:
my favorite specialty woodworking store
I guess ... telling other enthusiasts to go elsewhere. I'm not so comfortable with my ego, for that. At the sewing store, I try to support the fancy (read, expensive) stuff. But I recognize most enthusiasts are not so crazy as me. I'm reluctant to gift my opinions to others, especially as regards information.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:EastTN said:
my favorite specialty woodworking store
I guess ... telling other enthusiasts to go elsewhere. I'm not so comfortable with my ego, for that. At the sewing store, I try to support the fancy (read, expensive) stuff. But I recognize most enthusiasts are not so crazy as me. I'm reluctant to gift my opinions to others, especially as regards information.
Fair enough. For me, it's a matter of confidence in what I'm buying. There are a couple of specialty woodworking stores where I know that any tool I buy will be a joy to use. (There's a small bronze spokeshave I bought a year or so ago that's a work of art.) If I run into a problem, it'll be my lack of skill and not an issue with the tool. Of course, on the flip side, I end up paying through the nose. For me, that's a worthwhile trade-off. I'm implicitly paying for advice - if they stock it, I know it's a quality tool.
Personally, I'd like to be able to say that about Logos.
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MJ. Smith said:
I have a bit more trust in Christians' ability to choose their books wisely. I find it insulting that others think I'm so ignorant and weak that they need to protect me -- or that pagan or shaman are more dangerous than heretics.
No, I don't think those things you assume I'm thinking.
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EastTN said:
Of course, you and MJ may think of Logos more as a "big box" store that carries everything - which is fine.
Let's just say I probably have more resources with mytag of trash or junk than you ... so, yes, I think of Logos as "big box". BTW it was my chemistry teacher who taught me to label file cabinets junk, stuff, trash, misc. (or similar for the four drawers). Chemistry majors had coffee cups in the stuff drawer. My trash category is for materials so awful I'd gag to read them ... first book I ever read in that category was a free Amazon review copy of a pop Christianity author; my junk category is for stuff that is not worth reading unless some specific rabbit trail forces me there.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I have been studying the paganization of the US for numerous years now- witchcraft, so called- has been here for a very long time.
Studying pagan practices will open your eyes to a lot of what has happen among the young in the last 20 to 30 years.
I do agree there are certain materials, lets just say suck and have very little value in calling out human self- deception about fake spiritualism.
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BUT ALAS IT'S GONE BYE-BYE
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Whyndell Grizzard said:
witchcraft, so called- has been here for a very long time.
Yes, I know. A direct ancestor was executed as a witch in Salem. But I am also reminded of a child abuse case I sat in on where the defense attorney tried to make much of the victim being into witchcraft. In cross-examination, it was noted that the "witchcraft" came from a series of Time-Life books on fairy, elves, gnomes, witches ... in other words, the use of the word tells you little about content.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Whyndell Grizzard said:
BUT ALAS IT'S GONE BYE-BYE
!!That’s strange because it’s still showing in my open prepubs. Maybe I’ll get an email stating that “due to some whining in the forums we have cancelled your prepub!” Faithlife needs to make up their mind. They took away Dracula due to people whining about it just to bring it back a few months later! If I preordered a book I expect to have it in my library for research and unless the publisher backed out then FL should deliver my book!
Now I won’t have actual quotes for my series on “The Works of the Flesh” which, by the way, includes witchcraft!
Thanks Faithlife for lacking backbone! But I bet you won’t bring the book back for my complaining but you took it away for other people’s complaining! What a way to show double standards and favor the feeble minded over the mature minded!
Thank you!
DAL
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DMB said:DAL said:
... and unless you believe in witchcraft and that it actually works, then worry about it, but if you don’t believe then there’s nothing to worry about
You sound hauntingly like a writer in the NT. Let me see, who could it be? Oh gee .. Paul!
I guess better buy it, before FL gets spooked! Oops, a prepub. Spook time. Actually, here in New-Age-Land, it's good to understand the thinking, before discussing Jesus. Most Christians haven't a clue. Once, in Bible class, a visitor asked about channeling Jesus. Reaction: frowns.
EDIT: Actually, Jeremiah made a similar argument as Paul. Paul's was a little more sophisticated.
Well, you see, people like us reason through things and make arguments because we are mature and want to understand to have actual answers when others who are willing to learn ask questions. But some people they just whine about it without really understanding things and just claiming something is wrong with zero arguments to back it up.
Coming from a family who had some practice magic I can tell you about the real books that you should read to learn something but can assure you that you don’t really want to read those books and learn what’s in them. But this book is harmless and gives you some insight into different perspectives people have about “witchcraft.”
Anyway, hopefully this cute book will make its way back some day 😂😂😂
👻👻👻
DAL
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DAL said:
Coming from a family who had some practice magic I can tell you about the real books that you should read to learn something
I am often tempted to suggest Medieval grimoires to the suggested resources list but I refrain because I know it is just my warped sense of humor ... but there is a great book on gnostic silk-route amulets that would be a legitimate, useful addition to Logos.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:DAL said:
Coming from a family who had some practice magic I can tell you about the real books that you should read to learn something
I am often tempted to suggest Medieval grimoires to the suggested resources list but I refrain because I know it is just my warped sense of humor ... but there is a great book on gnostic silk-route amulets that would be a legitimate, useful addition to Logos.
I would definitely recommend Clavicula Salomonis (The Key of Solomon the King). Some want to tie it to the actual King Solomon, others say it was a different king. Lots of ”hidden wisdom” in it, though. The others would be too deep for FL to carry 😂
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I approve.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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There are many books in Logos that address Paganism, Wicca, and ritual magic. I would prefer that people could use their own discernment about such a book instead of just taking it out because someone doesn't like it. One might think Logos is exclusively Christian, but in practice, the site sells more than just Christian literature. Either take away many more questionable books, or let anyone buy what interests them. Otherwise, it's selective censorship.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jimerwin/ - a postmodern pastor in a digital world
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Jim Erwin said:
There are many books in Logos that address Paganism, Wicca, and ritual magic. I would prefer that people could use their own discernment about such a book instead of just taking it out because someone doesn't like it. One might think Logos is exclusively Christian, but in practice, the site sells more than just Christian literature. Either take away many more questionable books, or let anyone buy what interests them. Otherwise, it's selective censorship.
Well said! 👍
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Jim Erwin said:
Otherwise, it's selective censorship.
And to add insult to injury, usually done without actually reading the book.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Jim Erwin said:
Otherwise, it's selective censorship.
And to add insult to injury, usually done without actually reading the book.
I think we should stop and consider the arguments for a spell.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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DAL said:DMB said:
... Actually, here in New-Age-Land, it's good to understand the thinking, before discussing Jesus. Most Christians haven't a clue. Once, in Bible class, a visitor asked about channeling Jesus. Reaction: frowns...
Well, you see, people like us reason through things and make arguments because we are mature and want to understand to have actual answers when others who are willing to learn ask questions. But some people they just whine about it without really understanding things and just claiming something is wrong with zero arguments to back it up....
We've somehow ended up in ad hominem land.
Jim Erwin said:
There are many books in Logos that address Paganism, Wicca, and ritual magic. I would prefer that people could use their own discernment about such a book instead of just taking it out because someone doesn't like it. One might think Logos is exclusively Christian, but in practice, the site sells more than just Christian literature. Either take away many more questionable books, or let anyone buy what interests them. Otherwise, it's selective censorship.
This is a discussion among Logos customers about what products we would like to see them offer, and which we would prefer they not offer. No more, no less. My preference would be for Logos to remain a specialty retailer. You might prefer that they become another Amazon, but with better software. That's fine, and catering to your preferences may be a better business strategy for them. But this discussion is not about censorship. No one is talking about forcing books off the market. Amazon is still going to be offering this book, and many others on paganism, regardless of what FaithLife chooses to do.
I don't want to see my specialty hardwood store start stocking construction grade pine two by fours. I'd rather they focus their efforts on ensuring a quality supply of quartersawn oak, figured maple and sustainably grown tropical hardwoods. That's not "censorship" of two by fours - Home Depot has them by the pallet-load.
One final note, then I'm done. We've ended up in a place in this discussion where we're joking about paganism. I just finished teaching an 8-week series on Ezekiel. God has an opinion on paganism, and it's not a positive one. That's not to say Christians shouldn't study it or be knowledgeable about it. I have several "Wicca for Dummies" style books on my shelf for just that purpose. But I do think there's a limit to how flippant we should be about it.
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EastTN said:
This is a discussion among Logos customers about what products we would like to see them offer, and which we would prefer they not offer.
You leave out the object of 'offer' ... you want 'to you' to also apply to 'everyone else'. As also at your hardware store. You want your preferences to apply to other shoppers ... and for them to be inconvenienced. Being from big-box retail, our mantra was convenience ... you get what you want.
EastTN said:But this discussion is not about censorship.
Oh, but it is. In our little valley, a small group is on the attack against the libraries. You'd argue, well, it's available elsewhere. But the actual problem is that the small group wants to manage the reading habits of the larger group. And so also, the OP. He need not 'click'. Try managing the fingers.
EastTN said:We've ended up in a place in this discussion where we're joking about paganism.
Maybe true, and I agree, the area is not Christian. But I'm a big believer in 'behavior as belief' ... do the Christians manage to become sufficiently knowledgable, to argue Jesus' superiority (what NT authors did). I've never seen that ... even our pastors (from experience).
EastTN said:One final note,
OK, one final. I don't get too excited over FL managing their library ... when I first signed on, the curating part was invaluable. But they let that horse out of the barn years back. Amazon is my friend for curating purposes (samples, customer comments). FL is just a dump-it, sell-it operation .... unless someone complains, and then a quiet removal with no explanation.
EDIT: Although, per Jim's comment below, transfer to eBooks is even more curious (and better). I guess that hints the main FL library is the curated one now.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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An update: Faithlife put it in the eBooks section for Pre-Pub.
If they are to provide these kinds of books, then it is best that it is an eBook and not a Logos edition.
Thanks for the discussion.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jimerwin/ - a postmodern pastor in a digital world
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https://www.logos.com/distribution-philosophy
If Faithlife had made its “distribution philosophy” webpage easier to find, I would have read it earlier and wouldn’t have posted objections to a book Faithlife is selling. There’s not much in their “distribution philosophy” that would prevent Faithlife from selling most of the inventory of any random occult bookstore, Muslim bookstore, Hindu bookstore, cult bookstore, etc, as well as the book in question.
Since Faithlife calls itself a Christian bookstore, I do ask that they consider more carefully what it means to honor God, and so made a distinction between 1) academic and historical books on witchcraft, paganism, amulets, other religions, and 2) contemporary “how to” books that glorify other religions and the occult and encourage the reader to follow them. (I was objecting to books in the 2nd category). But it’s their company, so I will not post any objections anymore. But I have to say, I’ve read a lot by the author in question, and tons of other stuff on the occult and other religions written by those who practice them, so many of the comments about me in this thread are untrue.0 -
It seems to me that the people who don’t want these books have the same rights to voice their opinions as those who do. Unfortunately, I’ve seen several strawman and ad hominem attacks from the latter group.
Personally, I approach these controversial book listings on a case-by-case basis. For example, I found the Muslim book on preaching (the topic of a thread a while back) to be useful in understanding Muslims better. This one, I’m more dubious about the value. I’ll probably give it a hard pass.
But I am disappointed by the contempt and lack of charity towards those with moral concerns in this thread. It feels like a violation of community standards.
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Verbum Max0 -
I agree. If this is a Christian bookstore, then it is understood to explicitly promote Jesus. Where that line is for the purpose of supporting anti Christian, pagan authors, agendas and teachings is a bit cloudy. But it's a fair expectation the OP is making inquiry into.
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David Wanat said:
It seems to me that the people who don’t want these books have the same rights to voice their opinions as those who do. Unfortunately, I’ve seen several strawman and ad hominem attacks from the latter group.
Oh, they do (have same rights). Just as I pan various books, you might enjoy. And visa versa. The problem occurs where I demand FL remove books you might find useful. Are you ok with my managing your choices.
Then, there's the 'Christian' mantra ... in my book, Christian false-teaching (most of Logos.com) is a more serious issue, than some pagans. But then, I'd (again) be managing your beliefs, no? No offense intended.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
I guess better buy it, before FL gets spooked! Oops, a prepub. Spook time. Actually, here in New-Age-Land, it's good to understand the thinking, before discussing Jesus. Most Christians haven't a clue. Once, in Bible class, a visitor asked about channeling Jesus. Reaction: frowns.
Jim Erwin said:Either take away many more questionable books, or let anyone buy what interests them. Otherwise, it's selective censorship.
FL has definitely demonstrated selective censorship before. Reminds me of this thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/209579.aspx
That book got pulled so fast I didn't get a chance to buy it first. We were given no explanation as to why they decided to pull it.
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DMB said:David Wanat said:
It seems to me that the people who don’t want these books have the same rights to voice their opinions as those who do. Unfortunately, I’ve seen several strawman and ad hominem attacks from the latter group.
Oh, they do (have same rights). Just as I pan various books, you might enjoy. And visa versa. The problem occurs where I demand FL remove books you might find useful. Are you ok with my managing your choices.
Then, there's the 'Christian' mantra ... in my book, Christian false-teaching (most of Logos.com) is a more serious issue, than some pagans. But then, I'd (again) be managing your beliefs, no? No offense intended.
I think you missed the key point of my post... [:(]
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
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Mike Binks said:
I think we should stop and consider the arguments for a spell.
mea culpa (aren't many spells in Latin?) [:)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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The problem is that FL hasn’t decided whether they want to be in the book selling business or in the people pleasing business and even in the people pleasing business, they’re not even sure what to do! I thought that by them having a new CEO they would have a firm grasp on that, but I guess it’s the same cycle all over again! New look same essence!
DAL
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DAL said:
The problem is that FL hasn’t decided whether they want to be in the book selling business or in the people pleasing business and even in the people pleasing business, they’re not even sure what to do!
If I miss my guess (likely), it's people pleasing vs publisher pleasing (contracts). It's an interesting question, as to the ebooks contracts; high margin maybe; don't know about sales.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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David Wanat said:
I think you missed the key point of my post...
Well, not quite. There's a case for silence as comment. Again, no offense.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Whyndell Grizzard said:
BUT ALAS IT'S GONE BYE-BYE
!!I thought for sure they would keep it until after Halloween [:D]
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John said:Whyndell Grizzard said:
BUT ALAS IT'S GONE BYE-BYE
!!I thought for sure they would keep it until after Halloween
Hey, it probably used the invisible 🫥 spell because it’s still showing in my prepub page and it will deliver in 10/27/23. So maybe it’s only visible to those who have conjure it up 😂
DAL
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DAL said:
favor the feeble minded over the mature minded!
That's what we are called to do in Romans 14.
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DAL said:Whyndell Grizzard said:
BUT ALAS IT'S GONE BYE-BYE
!!That’s strange because it’s still showing in my open prepubs. Maybe I’ll get an email stating that “due to some whining in the forums we have cancelled your prepub!” Faithlife needs to make up their mind. They took away Dracula due to people whining about it just to bring it back a few months later! If I preordered a book I expect to have it in my library for research and unless the publisher backed out then FL should deliver my book!
Now I won’t have actual quotes for my series on “The Works of the Flesh” which, by the way, includes witchcraft!
Thanks Faithlife for lacking backbone! But I bet you won’t bring the book back for my complaining but you took it away for other people’s complaining! What a way to show double standards and favor the feeble minded over the mature minded!
Thank you!
DAL
Strange- twice now clicking link- it's gone- looked it up name no hits- maybe my internet connection has been cursed? [6]
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Hi everyone, thank you for your engagement on this. As is shown here, there are a variety of strong opinions on this topic. It has been referenced a couple of times, but we've outlined our stance in our Distribution Philosophy. Our effort is to provide the best possible content on Logos.com but also want to provide materials that don't fall inside the normal realm of Christian publishing. There are many reasons for this. Currently our solution is to offer this type of material on our General eBook Site. This is a unique URL compared to the standard site we showcase on the website. For those that like an expanded selection, please feel free to shop as you normally would. All content from this site will integrate with the software just like any other eBook you buy from the site.
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Whyndell Grizzard said:DAL said:Whyndell Grizzard said:
BUT ALAS IT'S GONE BYE-BYE
!!That’s strange because it’s still showing in my open prepubs. Maybe I’ll get an email stating that “due to some whining in the forums we have cancelled your prepub!” Faithlife needs to make up their mind. They took away Dracula due to people whining about it just to bring it back a few months later! If I preordered a book I expect to have it in my library for research and unless the publisher backed out then FL should deliver my book!
Now I won’t have actual quotes for my series on “The Works of the Flesh” which, by the way, includes witchcraft!
Thanks Faithlife for lacking backbone! But I bet you won’t bring the book back for my complaining but you took it away for other people’s complaining! What a way to show double standards and favor the feeble minded over the mature minded!
Thank you!
DAL
Strange- twice now clicking link- it's gone- looked it up name no hits- maybe my internet connection has been cursed?
That’s because you don’t know where to look 👀 👻 🦇 boohaaaaaa
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Mitch Snyder (Faithlife) said:
Hi everyone, thank you for your engagement on this. As is shown here, there are a variety of strong opinions on this topic. It has been referenced a couple of times, but we've outlined our stance in our Distribution Philosophy. Our effort is to provide the best possible content on Logos.com but also want to provide materials that don't fall inside the normal realm of Christian publishing. There are many reasons for this. Currently our solution is to offer this type of material on our General eBook Site. This is a unique URL compared to the standard site we showcase on the website. For those that like an expanded selection, please feel free to shop as you normally would. All content from this site will integrate with the software just like any other eBook you buy from the site.
Sooooo...books by neo-pagans, yes. Books by gay Christians, no.
FL has a very wise distribution philosophy. It's a shame they don't follow it consistently.
Given this distribution philosophy, consider restoring the Still Stace book you pulled last year and adding other titles that take a positive stance on LGBTQ acceptance in the church. People are studying and debating these topics whether they agree with the position or not, but there aren't many books in the store that make the positive arguments or take a positive stance. I can only think of one, I would tell you which one but I'm afraid you might pull it. As your policy states, I'd rather buy these digital titles in Logos instead of having to buy them in Kindle and then have Kindle and Logos open side by side.
Here are some popular suggestions:
Here's a book that was requested in the forums although not fully accepting:
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Kiyah said:
FL has a very wise distribution philosophy. It's a shame they don't follow it consistently.
Given this distribution philosophy, consider restoring the Still Stace book you pulled last year and adding other titles that take a positive stance on LGBTQ acceptance in the church. People are studying a debating these topics whether they agree with the position or not, but there aren't many books in the store that make the positive arguments or take a positive stance. I can only think of one, I would tell you which one but I'm afraid you might pull it. As your policy states, I'd rather buy these digital titles in Logos instead of having to buy them in Kindle and then have Kindle and Logos open side by side.
Here are some popular suggestions:
I'm against it.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Kiyah said:
I've read this one. It's the account of a former atheist who became Catholic and now lives as a celibate lesbian. It is about her struggles and reflections in learning to live a Catholic life.
I'd buy it if it ever became available. I don't agree with all of her ideas, but there's nothing in it trying to change the teaching of homosexuality. I haven't read the other books, so I don't know if they take a similar view or if they advocate acceptance of active homosexuality.
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David Wanat said:Kiyah said:
I've read this one. It's the account of a former atheist who became Catholic and now lives as a celibate lesbian. It is about her struggles and reflections in learning to live a Catholic life.
I'd buy it if it ever became available. I don't agree with all of her ideas, but there's nothing in it trying to change the teaching of homosexuality. I haven't read the other books, so I don't know if they take a similar view or if they advocate acceptance of active homosexuality.
I hadn't read this one. I just included it because I saw someone had requested it in the forums.
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xnman said:
I'm against it.
The Protestant minister that I have the most respect for was trained and ordained in a very conservative church. When engaged in long-term counseling with a member of his congregation, he realized that he had read the Bible with some presuppositions that were not supportable. He was brave enough to trust God and made the leap to a more mainline Uniting Church. After two decades working in that tradition, his discomfort with small details reached the breaking point and he made another leap to Anglican ... which amusingly is what his wife was baptized in as an infant although she was not raised in it. My point? One never knows where the Lord may lead, but one should NEVER cut off potential directions ... it's God's job to do that. And, yes, this is a theological argument for the inclusion of the text which really doesn't belong but was made necessary by your implication that you should make the decision for all of us rather than letting God do it.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Kiyah said:
but there's nothing in it trying to change the teaching of homosexuality.
The first (and only) interactive sermon I heard was 30 some years ago when the pastor was saying there was nothing wrong with being homosexual ... it is particular actions associated with homosexuality that were forbidden. Let's just say one member of the congregation was not ready to hear that message.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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