How could Logos help your sermon-writing process?
We're very interested in better understanding how Logos could help in the sermon-writing process. If you preach, it would be a great help if you could fill in this quick survey. Even better, could you also ask your own pastor or your pastor friends to fill it out too? It would be great to hear from a wide range of voices.
Thank you!
Comments
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Mark, please broaden your outlook. If you look at sheer volume, more faith formation, adult education, Bible study, and daily service reflections and lessons are used in the church than primary sermons. Logos needs to provide more complete services to the full range of people who formally spread the word rather than concentrating on single-text sermons which is a small slice of the actual marketplace.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I've noted it in the survey itself, but the sermon has too many inconveniences that are constantly distracting me from the writing process.
- Inserting passages is inconsistent. Sometimes when typing in an abbreviated passage it is erased when inserting the passage, other times it remains and I have to clean it up.
- When triple clicking to select an entire paragraph you will effect the formatting of the paragraph below. Example: if you have "Heading 1" text followed by a paragraph in "Normal" style, triple-clicking on the heading and then backspace will put the following normal paragraph into "Heading 1" formatting.
- Often spellchecker will stop displaying when deleting words in other parts of the same paragraph until I enter a line break.
- Copy and paste is often broken when trying to copy texts that include inserted passages.
- If line one has bold formatting (or any other kind) and then I hit enter to start typing line two, I will turn bold off. If I quickly decide to start over on line two and erase it back to the beginning, bold will come back on again.
- Using an asterisk mark (*) and hitting space to start a bullet list is sometimes inconsistent
- I wish I could start a numbered list at any other number than 1. My outlines are sometimes broken up by inserted passages and the numbering starts at 1 all over again.
When writing a sermon I just want to write - not constantly battle with the tool I'm using to make it presentable.0 -
MJ. Smith said:
Mark, please broaden your outlook. If you look at sheer volume, more faith formation, adult education, Bible study, and daily service reflections and lessons are used in the church than primary sermons. Logos needs to provide more complete services to the full range of people who formally spread the word rather than concentrating on single-text sermons which is a small slice of the actual marketplace.
I agree with this.
Instead of creating a package sermon, I create notes on an entire book of the Bible. Not producing a commentary, but notes that I use to preach or share or discuss in a variety of meeting formats. I create these notes which can be hundreds of pages and make a personal book. But perhaps there is a better way to publish and create such a file that would be accessible even on my phone or tablet (PB does not allow this).
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Thanks for the opportunity to provide some feedback and input Mark. I appreciate Logos taking some time to hear from a bunch of its users and other people.Regarding the survey, I found the question "How much of your sermon preparation do you use Logos for?" to be a bit tricky. See, I will have Logos open for practically 100% of the time that I am writing sermons, but I almost never use the sermon builder or manager tools. Instead, all the writing takes place within a MS Word document. So I do use Logos for basically 100% of my preparation, but 0% of the actual writing or preaching of the sermon occurs within Logos.Moving on, I'm in agreement with MJ - Logos is heavily orientated towards Sermons, but would be nice to see some love given to bible study creation/management, Sunday school classes etc. However, as Morgan has noted, the experience of using the sermon builder tool is frustrating and full of inconveniences. And most of this comes down to the fact that the sermon builder is a stripped down version of a word processor. Case in point, font size is not pt 10,11,12 etc but listed as S,M,L,XL,XXL.So my question is - why would someone use the sermon builder tool when they can just use a fully fledged word processor like MS Word? Indeed, by the time I started using Logos I already had hundreds, if not thousands of hours logged on MS Word. I know that application inside and out, and the sermon builder tool just can't compete with that.That said, here are some things I'd be keen to see that would for me help make the sermon-writing process more functional.
- Popular quotes is a great function and needs to be accessible as its own tool.
- The idea that people might write sermons in logos and then NOT use logos to preach, but instead desire to print the document doesn't seem to have been considered. I'd be keen to see this corrected.
- I have no visual representation of the page size/margins/number of pages within the sermon builder tool.
- I have no control of the size/location/formatting of the page numbers when printing.
- 'Exported from Logos Bible Software...' is stamped over each page when printing.
- Every heading comes printed with a rather large bar across the page.
- Exporting a sermon to MS Word and then correcting all this stuff there is possible, but why double handle when I can just write it in Word?
- Part of the sermon-writing process for me often involves collaboration. I have that ability with MS Word or Google Docs etc to send a sermon document to someone else and have them review it. This would be a feature I'd like to see within Logos, just avoid the temptation to require the reviewer to own logos themselves - if they don't have logos the document could be accessed via a web app.
- I have a checklist I frequently go over with my sermons to ensure I've done XYZ or considered XYZ. Custom workflows for sermon prep have helped in this, but I see potential for a custom checklist feature within the sermon builder tool.
- Handout/Question etc presuppose a certain way of presenting sermons that isn't shared by everyone. I myself have no idea how to use them or why I would want to
- It's a little thing, but in addition to the word counter at the bottom I'd also have an estimated time counter. Input your words spoken per minute (persists across sermon documents) and it will calculate and estimated time to preach the sermon.
- Preaching mode needs to open within the logos app itself and function offline.
Current MDiv student at Trinity Theological College - Perth, Western Australia
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Thanks for asking about this, Mark.
I said in the survey that I don't want Logos to write my sermon for me. There are already a number of tools that I will never use, such as sermon outlines, illustrations etc. I rarely, if ever, find these helpful. I think the reason for this is that the most helpful and powerful sermon that I can preach is one that I have laboured hard to prepare and that I have prepared with my specific congregation in mind.
So I would prefer you guys to spend less time developing resources or tools that have the aim of making sermon preparation easier or quicker. It shouldn't be easy!
Also, given some of the questions you've asked it seems that you are working on/considering resources based on sharing sermon content to social media. That could be useful, but again I would consider this a nice-to-have rather than an essential tool.
I hope this helps.
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I filled out the survey, but If I could make two things happen it would be a spell checker in Sermon Builder that actually works and more formatting options in it as well.
Macbook Air (2024), Apple M2, 16gb Ram, Mac Sequoia, 1TB storage
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MJ. Smith said:
Mark, please broaden your outlook.
Both/And - I am glad for a laser focus on those who prepare public sermons regularly. Software can free up time for the many other duties of professional clergy. What's Best Next is to begin pre-thinking priority B which is the proficient exegesis and homiletics of laity.
If users don't begrudge development for clergy, I will not begrudge development for users that are outside of my experience. Different users/different priorities requires prioritization.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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MJ. Smith said:
Mark, please broaden your outlook. If you look at sheer volume, more faith formation, adult education, Bible study, and daily service reflections and lessons are used in the church than primary sermons. Logos needs to provide more complete services to the full range of people who formally spread the word rather than concentrating on single-text sermons which is a small slice of the actual marketplace.
I agree with that. Logos has some great all-around tools, but some users want more focused tools to help them do one thing really well. Our evolving Sermon Tools suite is one example of trying to meet a more focused need, as are Workflows. But we can do better, and – alongside possible improvements to help with sermon writing – we're also thinking a lot about how we could help Sunday School teachers, small group leaders, and others in similar roles. Maybe there'll be a survey about that in the not too distant future.
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Morgan said:
I've noted it in the survey itself, but the sermon has too many inconveniences that are constantly distracting me from the writing process.
Thanks for listing these out. I was aware of some of these problems, but not all of them. We do have some significant work penciled in for next year to improve the basic editing experience, which won't be a small task. This list will help us with that process.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
we're also thinking a lot about how we could help Sunday School teachers, small group leaders, and others in similar roles
[Y] [Y]
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Richard Wardman said:
So I would prefer you guys to spend less time developing resources or tools that have the aim of making sermon preparation easier or quicker. It shouldn't be easy!
I understand what you mean, but I only partly agree.
It's vital that we wrestle with the text. It's essential we don't take shortcuts. It's necessary that we labor over the message.
At the same time, lexicons make aspects of sermon preparation easier. So do commentaries and theological dictionaries. Heck, my computer itself makes aspects of sermon preparation both easier and quicker than a pen and paper.
Where we especially want to help in the sermon-writing process is in these ways:
- Quickly and easily surface content that answers your questions or raises questions worth wrestling with. If we can put the best answer to your search query at #1 instead of #5, perhaps that gives you ten more minutes to spend on something more productive.
- Reduce the time spent on non-critical work. Things like inserting Bible text into sermons or automatically generating slides fall into this category. The social media posts you mentioned could be thought of like this, too.
- Stimulate your thinking when you're at a dead end (or is it only me that has dead ends?). Perhaps you've ground to a halt thinking of a quote that would make this great point come alive. Or perhaps what you really need are some ideas for an illustration that would help the congregation to apply this truth to their lives. Do you want a copy/paste illustration? I know I don't. But could seeing a few different ideas stimulate you to think of a related illustration that perfectly fits your message and your flock? That's sometimes been my experience.
The things we're trying to do could make aspects of sermon preparation easier and quicker. Not so you can sit on the beach with a piña colada, but so you can reinvest that time into getting an even deeper understanding of the text, or spend more time in prayer, or apply the text more appropriate to your congregation. The overall process shouldn't be easy. But we're dedicated to making some parts of the process easier so you can spend more time on what really matters.
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I use Logos regularly for sermons and home groups.
- The support for keyboard shortcuts is inadequate. I would like to be able to customize the shortcuts - as is also possible in Word. I use Logos to write my sermon to find my own sermon if I use the text later.
- The support for finding illustrations is inadequate. I already have a lot of resources - probably too many. Logos offers me so many unsuitable illustrations that it simply takes too much time to work through them.
- The support for finding citations could be significantly improved. Why can I only filter on an author if I already have a citation from him? The selection (one German) is too small. Who needs Goethe and Shakespeare here? Couldn't you set up a personal filter here?
- I don't use the slide support (too inflexible), handouts or questionnaires at all.
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5. the prioritization tool could be greatly expanded. In particular, the various resource classes should be better supported.
6. why are there no personal paragraph and font styles that can be called up with a shortcut? So easy to implement - so helpful!
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
we're also thinking a lot about how we could help Sunday School teachers, small group leaders, and others in similar roles. Maybe there'll be a survey about that in the not too distant future.
That would be good. I've never been able to come to grips with the Sermon tool, but it is overkill for Small Groups where I use Clippings. Slides and Handouts should be incorporated, but not based on the Sermon model! It also needs improvements to text editing and searching.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I like the sermon function. When I build a sermon.... I agree whole heartly with the thinking that we should wrestle with the text. I also think sermons should be biblical driven. And I think people should show how they build their sermons.... this might help you in this...
In my sermons.... I might have Bible text, quotes, text from some book, maybe an example. I like slides and often use PowerPoint for that.
Because of the above.... putting verses, text from some book, examples and doing the slides should be easy.
I like the way quotes work in sermons.
I would like to see with Sermons the ability to create a template of how I want my sermon to look like and such, and to be able to re-use that template in Sermons... Now there is a work around.... but I would like to save the template in Sermons and then click on it and when it comes up I have to rename it to what I want to call it now. And the template would automatically reset the headings to what I changed them to in the template (size and font and such).
I also would like change the background on the sermon page for a heading section.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
I would like to see with Sermons the ability to create a template of how I want my sermon to look like and such, and to be able to re-use that template in Sermons... Now there is a work around.... but I would like to save the template in Sermons and then click on it and when it comes up I have to rename it to what I want to call it now. And the template would automatically reset the headings to what I changed them to in the template (size and font and such).
Are you aware you can do this using the Sermon Manager Tool - after creating a Sermon Template in Sermon Builder?
See https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360046242132-Sermon-Manager for some details
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David Thomas said:MJ. Smith said:
Mark, please broaden your outlook.
Both/And - I am glad for a laser focus on those who prepare public sermons regularly.
But the focus is only on a small subset of those who prepare public sermons regularly:
- the focus is on sermons with long preparation times - not for those who preach daily or add the optional preaching to the morning and evening prayer
- the focus is on sermons based on a single text - little support for the interrelationships between multiple texts
- the focus omits what one exegesis author refers to as "exegeting the congregation"
- the focus ignores the interplay of liturgical texts with the scripture and sermon
- the focus ignores the progressive churches that use expanded canons with gnostic text additions
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thanks Graham as always.... but how do I create a template of semons and keep re-using that template in Documents -> New-Sermon?
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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MJ. Smith said:David Thomas said:MJ. Smith said:
Mark, please broaden your outlook.
Both/And - I am glad for a laser focus on those who prepare public sermons regularly.
But the focus is only on a small subset of those who prepare public sermons regularly:
- the focus is on sermons with long preparation times - not for those who preach daily or add the optional preaching to the morning and evening prayer
- the focus is on sermons based on a single text - little support for the interrelationships between multiple texts
- the focus omits what one exegesis author refers to as "exegeting the congregation"
- the focus ignores the interplay of liturgical texts with the scripture and sermon
- the focus ignores the progressive churches that use expanded canons with gnostic text additions
What does "the focus omits what one exegesis author refers to as "exegeting the congregation" mean? I have not heard this before.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Richard Wardman said:
So I would prefer you guys to spend less time developing resources or tools that have the aim of making sermon preparation easier or quicker. It shouldn't be easy!
What? Why would you want to spend 20 hours doing something that you can do in 10 hours? Why would you want to spend 10 hours doing something you can do in 5 hours? That is the whole point of having a software, isn't it? I am obviously missing the point you are trying to make. (Yes, I am not a pastor, but a lay person).
For publishing research as a financial economist, we use statistical software. I tell my PhD students that I don't care about beautiful their software code is. It is irrelevant. What matters is the output. Similarly, I don't care if the pastors spent 20 hours on the sermon. What matters is whether they are explaining the text well and whether they give practical takeaways from the text.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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xnman said:
What does "the focus omits what one exegesis author refers to as "exegeting the congregation" mean?
Here are several views on the topic with some variety in naming.
[quote]
Several steps in the process of application can be distinguished:
1. Ascertain the major thematic idea of the pericope.
2. Integrate the major theme into the overall structure and total message of the book.
3. Exegete your audience just as you did the text until you are confident that your message will be both meaningful and relevant. Here we must recognize that it is insufficient to exegete the text and the ancient culture unless our audience is exegeted as well.
4. State the need that you are addressing and describe your intended audience.
5. Prepare applications that speak to the varied needs and challenges of your total audience.
Dean B. Deppe, All Roads Lead to the Text: Eight Methods of Inquiry into the Bible (Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2011), 294–295.[quote]
These last questions indicate that a sermon is not merely an outlined description of a text. A sermon is an explanation of the continuing truth principles evident in the Bible that indicate how contemporary persons should respond to a mutual condition we share with those who were the original subjects or recipients of the text in the light of God’s response to or provision for their situation. Since a sermon ultimately answers for listeners, What does this text mean to me? the explanation has to be framed in such a way that it maximizes meaning for listeners. Thus, adequate explanation requires accurate understanding of both the text and the audience. We must exegete our listeners as well as the text to construct a sermon that most powerfully and accurately explains what the text means. It is, after all, quite possible to say many true things about a text and yet communicate a highly inadequate or an entirely false meaning by not taking into consideration a congregation’s background and situation. What can be heard as well as what should be said demand attention as a preacher lays the path of explanation.
Bryan Chapell, Christ-Centered Preaching: Redeeming the Expository Sermon, Second Edition (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2005), 106.
[quote]
Below are a few questions and issues to consider as you take up the challenge of communicating the text:
1. Whom are you addressing as you communicate the text? How would you “exegete” your hearers (e.g., congregation, students, participants)? What form of communication would be most effective (e.g., sermon, Bible study, lecture, art)?
2. How can the text’s claims or affirmations inform your Bible study or sermon? Can your presentation move your hearers in a way similar to the way the text encountered and moved its earliest hearers or readers?
3. Are the text’s central concerns intelligible or meaningful to the cultural and religious experience of your hearers? If not, why not? Are there ways to bring the text and your community closer together?
4. All of us read from a particular social location or place. A way to broaden your perspective is to consider how the text might be heard today by others whose social location differs from your own. For example, how would this text sound to someone living in poverty, or to a physically challenged person, or to someone of different ancestral background, gender, or sexual orientation?Prior to your exegetical work on the text, you developed a self-exegesis, a profile of your “hermeneutical” self that provides insight into the influences that have shaped the way you read and interpret the biblical text. Now that you have also done significant exegetical work on the text, you are invited to “exegete” the community you plan to address in your communication of the text. For congregations, I recommend the handbook Studying Congregations (Ammerman et al. 1998), which offers ways of studying communities in terms of their culture and the dynamics of congregational life. An effective preacher is one who knows the congregation, not just pastorally on an individual basis but also in terms of how the congregation is organized, how power is exercised and distributed, how decisions are made (i.e., polity), and what challenges the church faces within its larger social context (e.g., demographic location). Whenever I am invited to preach or teach in a congregation that is not my own, the first thing I do is study the congregation’s Web site and exegete its mission statement, which will reveal much about the church’s priorities. Notice also, for example, the kind of educational programs it offers on a regular basis, committee structure, the kinds of events the church hosts, and so forth. The Web site will tell you a lot about the congregation’s public face. From the pictures posted, what is the racial or ethnic makeup of the congregation?
William P. Brown, A Handbook to Old Testament Exegesis, First Edition (Louisville, KY: Westminster John Knox Press, 2017), 329–330.[quote]
For American Catholic preachers the most important document to come out of this movement to revitalize preaching was published in 1982 by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, Fulfilled in Your Hearing: The Homily in the Sunday Assembly. The principal writer was the Reverend William Skudlarek, O.S.B., a leading Catholic authority on the place of preaching in worship.
The introduction to this document makes very clear that it is the teaching of the Council that the primary duty of priests is to proclaim the gospel of God to all. From its very first paragraph we are favorably impressed. That preaching is proclamation is a fundamental insight. It may come as a surprise to American Catholics, but to Protestants of more classical tendencies it is elementary or, perhaps better, fundamental. Here Catholics and Protestants can easily agree. The document goes on to say that the sort of preaching that is properly called proclamation is to recount the mighty acts of God for our salvation and open up the mystery of God’s presence in the incarnate Christ.
Another thing that endears this document to Protestants of more traditional cast is that at the beginning of chapter 1 it quotes at length the story of Jesus preaching in the synagogue of Nazareth. In fact, it is from this story that the bishops have drawn the book’s title, Fulfilled in Your Hearing. All three elements of liturgical preaching are found in this story: the preacher, the text taken from Scripture, and the gathered community. Here the bishops surprise us. They want to begin their study by talking about the assembly or, to use the customary Protestant term, the congregation. But this move has real wisdom to it. As I was taught in seminary, it is just as important to exegete the congregation as it is to exegete the Scriptures. Apparently the communication theorists of our day have impressed the bishops with the importance of understanding the audience one wants to address. The worshiping assembly coming together on the Lord’s Day is the covenant community that God has called together as a sacramental reality. This is the community with whom God has graciously entered into a covenant. Sunday morning worship is a gathering of baptized Christians who are members of the body of Christ. It is essential that the preacher respect the gathering of Christians before him as a Christian congregation if preaching is to be rightly understood.
The bishops also are concerned to get across that preaching at the Lord’s Day assembly should be eucharistic preaching. It should be culminated in the celebration of the sacrament. The community gathered together on the Lord’s Day is a sacred community; even more it is a priestly people. The bishops are concerned to affirm the dignity first of the worshiping congregation, and only then of the ministers of the congregation. This, of course, is basic to the reforms of the Second Vatican Council. It is because the church is a priestly people that it can offer up worship to God. “The church is the fundamental sacrament of Christ.”
Next, the bishops address the duties of preaching that are truly pastoral. It is pastoral preaching that is needed in the church today, and if we are to have truly pastoral preaching then our preaching must be the fruit of prayer and meditation. We need to listen to the Scriptures. In fact, this document very specifically suggests that one should spend several hours a day studying and meditating on the Scriptures to be preached on the following Sunday. One should give time to a careful interpretation of the Scriptures in the week beforehand. One should pay attention to both exegesis and hermeneutics in one’s sermon preparation. In fact, the bishops are concerned to encourage preachers to study seriously the texts appointed by the lectionary. A preacher should develop his own library of lexical aids and commentaries. What the bishops have in mind for a sermon is obviously far more than a few devotional remarks about the lessons read from the Gospel.
One easily recognizes the concerns of the Christian humanists back in the sixteenth century. In fact, we can go even further back and recognize the ideal of Augustine in his De doctrina christiana, and, for that matter, the advice of Basil of Caesarea, who insisted on the value of literary studies for the Christian preacher. The concern for a broad education in the liberal arts is one of those classic concerns that reaches far back in the history of Christian preaching. One is especially pleased to see it being reaffirmed in our own day.
Hughes Oliphant Old, Our Own Time, vol. 7, The Reading and Preaching of the Scriptures in the Worship of the Christian Church (Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2010), 298–301.Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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xnman said:
but how do I create a template of semons and keep re-using that template in Documents -> New-Sermon?
We can't use a template to create a sermon from the Documents -> New Sermon dropdown
We can use them to create a sermon - using a template - from the Sermon Manager tool (if you have access to it)
The article I linked to above shows how to do this.
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1Cor10 31 said:
Why would you want to spend 10 hours doing something you can do in 5 hours? That is the whole point of having a software, isn't it?
My answer is basically I use software to read ABOUT the Bible, its grammar, structure, etc.; here the appropriate speed is the speed in which I can mentally digest the data presented. I don't use software to study the Bible where the goal is not simply understanding but allowing the scripture to shape me. Here I don't judge tools by time saved but rather by barriers broken.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Graham Criddle said:xnman said:
but how do I create a template of semons and keep re-using that template in Documents -> New-Sermon?
We can't use a template to create a sermon from the Documents -> New Sermon dropdown
We can use them to create a sermon - using a template - from the Sermon Manager tool (if you have access to it)
The article I linked to above shows how to do this.
Thanks again Graham... Just shows I've been going about it the hard way. And yes I have Sermon Manager.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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The two suggestions I put in the survey:
1. The ability to have sermons anchored to a text with an icon. I keep outlines anchored in the notes tool, but it would be nice to see sermons work as a visual filter with my main text(s) in my Bible instead of having to open up the sermon builder or do a search.
2. A better system for illustration management. I use the notes tool right now, but an illustration manager would be an outstanding feature. It could be utilized as a side panel in a sermon builder document.
I've given more thought after I filled out the survey, and one more suggestion is the ability to categorize sermons into actual sermons, Sunday school lessons, and small group lessons.
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Ryland Brown said:
2. A better system for illustration management. I use the notes tool right now, but an illustration manager would be an outstanding feature. It could be utilized as a side panel in a sermon builder document.
that’s a good point. Maybe it would help to have a crowd votation, that could be one solution for the question I wrote above.
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xnman said:
What does "the focus omits what one exegesis author refers to as "exegeting the congregation" mean?
I was trained to both Exegete the Word and Exegete the world to which it was given. This 2nd part may be omitted from the Sermon Document, but it is NOT omitted from my workflow. My custom workflow overlaps the Word and our world in steps 1.1, 1.2, 1.4, 1.7, 1.8, sections 2, 4 and 5.0
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
We're very interested in better understanding how Logos could help in the sermon-writing process.
Apologies, I'm not a pastor, but I would like to comment that the tool used by pastors to write can not be significantly different than that used by Bible teachers, scholars or layman in the church. It also seems obvious that many, many posts on these forums by pastors and others, refer to themselves using word processing programs such as Word, Pages, or PDF. So, it comes to no surprise to me that what many want and need is a full fledge word processing tool like Microsoft Word or Adobe integrated in Logos that smoothly interacts with all other features and tools in Logos and Proclaim, Powerpoint, Media tool, etc.
This is not a new thought, it has been around these forums for quite some time. I'm not sure why Faithlife has chosen to skirt around this staple word processing idea with an underdeveloped note tool and this attempt at making a specialized sermon writing tool, when maybe what should be developed is a really good professional word processor in Logos that could do both.
Maybe I am the one not understanding though, it wouldn't be the first time.[:D]
Too soon old. Too late smart.
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Bill said:
It also seems obvious that many, many posts on these forums by pastors and others, refer to themselves using word processing programs such as Word, Pages, or PDF. So, it comes to no surprise to me that what many want and need is a full fledge word processing tool like Microsoft Word or Adobe integrated in Logos that smoothly interacts with all other features and tools in Logos and Proclaim, Powerpoint, Media tool, etc.
Another issue is what happens if one day all sermons, Bible study notes are in a logos format, and Logos no longer exists. In other words, I would think that most would want to have their personal notes and sermons in a format that is standard.
This is why I write my notes and outlines and sermons in .docx format. If there was an import tool that would preserve the formatting of docx so that the material remains in the format of my choice but can also be uploaded into Logos, that proves ideal.
Or the other way around...If sermons, Bible study notes etc can be created in Logos format, but then converted in a number of different formats outside of Logos...that proves ideal as well.
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My .02 - I have never used the sermon tool, although I use Logos/Verbum in research and sermon prep. The reason is, I see the research of the sermon and the actual writing of the sermon as two different things. IMHO Logos will always be playing catch up to a quality word processor like Word. So I write in Word, with all its tools etc., and use Verbum side by side when/as needed.
I don't need all the little things Logos sermon prep has to categorize and make finding sermons easier, as Word search in a folder (or folder structure, whatever the user needs) is SO EASY - I can instantly find Week 1 Advent sermons, or that sermon where I talked about Zaccheus, etc. - no need for fancy tools to find what I am looking for.
Plus, the final product is easily printable, shareable, and I know they are backed up and I can see them on a mobile device, Mac, Windows, or any other device that does or will support Microsoft Windows.
Taking this a little further re: some of the comments about expanding sermon prep to include the development of other types of material for church presentation/use, then imho it seems the prep side gets even harder. So now Logos has to emulate what I can do to develop materials in Powerpoint? Or what if I have a study group and we are developing and collaborating on reflections, devotionals, etc. - maybe we all have One Note, or some Windows tool that makes sharing and collaboration on the document easier - Logos will never do that, as for one not everyone will have Logos just to do/review the prepared documents/materials. There are also choices for Lesson Builder software, that are inexpensive and very rich in functionality - does Logos try to chase being as good as those products too? This risks entering a complete loss of focus to me.
I just don't ever see Logos catching up to that side of the prep process - and if I asked myself, "What is the advantage of writing my sermons in Logos vs. how I do it now?", I don't see a compelling answer.
So, I really wish Logos would just focus on making the research and prep capabilities as rich as possible and not bloat it by more and more effort to compete on the writing side of the sermon. Or make it a complementary/standalone product if Logos insists on chasing this as part of their mission.
My .02.
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Don Awalt said:
My .02 - I have never used the sermon tool, although I use Logos/Verbum in research and sermon prep. The reason is, I see the research of the sermon and the actual writing of the sermon as two different things. IMHO Logos will always be playing catch up to a quality word processor like Word. So I write in Word, with all its tools etc., and use Verbum side by side when/as needed.
I don't need all the little things Logos sermon prep has to categorize and make finding sermons easier, as Word search in a folder (or folder structure, whatever the user needs) is SO EASY - I can instantly find Week 1 Advent sermons, or that sermon where I talked about Zaccheus, etc. - no need for fancy tools to find what I am looking for.
Plus, the final product is easily printable, shareable, and I know they are backed up and I can see them on a mobile device, Mac, Windows, or any other device that does or will support Microsoft Windows.
Taking this a little further re: some of the comments about expanding sermon prep to include the development of other types of material for church presentation/use, then imho it seems the prep side gets even harder. So now Logos has to emulate what I can do to develop materials in Powerpoint? Or what if I have a study group and we are developing and collaborating on reflections, devotionals, etc. - maybe we all have One Note, or some Windows tool that makes sharing and collaboration on the document easier - Logos will never do that, as for one not everyone will have Logos just to do/review the prepared documents/materials. There are also choices for Lesson Builder software, that are inexpensive and very rich in functionality - does Logos try to chase being as good as those products too? This risks entering a complete loss of focus to me.
I just don't ever see Logos catching up to that side of the prep process - and if I asked myself, "What is the advantage of writing my sermons in Logos vs. how I do it now?", I don't see a compelling answer.
So, I really wish Logos would just focus on making the research and prep capabilities as rich as possible and not bloat it by more and more effort to compete on the writing side of the sermon. Or make it a complementary/standalone product if Logos insists on chasing this as part of their mission.
My .02.
Good point!
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Don Awalt said:
So, I really wish Logos would just focus on making the research and prep capabilities as rich as possible and not bloat it by more and more effort to compete on the writing side of the sermon. Or make it a complementary/standalone product if Logos insists on chasing this as part of their mission.
I don't do sermons, though I listen to bunches. And the same for Bible classes. But I wonder if your perspective (a good one) is at the high-end of expertise? Meaning, is there a place for entry-level?
I only mention, from the perspective of congregations going without pastors these days. Church plants in odd places. I wouldn't argue Logos' current approach is optimal (including the 'workflow' tool; another lost opportunity). And they never quite mastered integration of Logos with the presentation software. And the Logos structure doesn't help out much in the liturgical world.
But give it up?
Added: An example, to explain a bit in real terms, and one of many, we were up in the mountains, our dog in the back of our RV. Sunday morning, and stopped to fill up. A gentleman in a suit, also filling up. Later a cute church, and our dog could relax outside. It turns out the suit'ed gentleman was the class teacher, and a great lesson. The pastor was pretty basic; he was the music team too. But a great experience. But I'd assume Logos could assist in several ways ... nothing sophisticated. Just assist.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
But give it up?
Oh I doubt they will give it up entirely - that happens very infrequently, doesn't it....but I sure hope they hear the message about bloat, and only doing things that they can be excellent at. Imho they can't win on this strategy, the sermon users won't be happy, and those that see all that as increasingly getting in the way of other functionality won't be happy either. A simple, focused feature that Logos can define "complete" would probably help some.
For the first time I have started to wonder a little about doing the next upgrade - will it make the things I want to do even more unwieldy...
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Don Awalt said:
I just don't ever see Logos catching up to that side of the prep process - and if I asked myself, "What is the advantage of writing my sermons in Logos vs. how I do it now?", I don't see a compelling answer.
This. Can't understate how much I agree with this. I offered some thoughts on improving the sermon builder earlier because we were asked, but at the end of the day I simply can't see myself moving away from using Word for the actual writing and review of the sermon, and even preaching on the rare occasion I've preached from a digital copy.
Don't get me wrong, I use Logos the entire time I write sermons. My screen is constantly split between Logos and Word, but the actual writing of sermons is not what Logos is needed for (there is a stronger argument to be made for the use of Logos in sermon planning/management, especially for those churches that use lectionaries).
Mark said:Another issue is what happens if one day all sermons, Bible study notes are in a logos format, and Logos no longer exists. In other words, I would think that most would want to have their personal notes and sermons in a format that is standard.
This is another major concern that I'm glad has been voiced. It's why the majority of my notes, sermon illustrations, translations and practically everything else is not written down in Logos. Logos is the big fish in bible software, but its a really small pond, and there is nothing to say someone else won't come along in 10 years time and do it better. Using standard formats also means I can share my content with practically anyone and be guaranteed they can access it.
MJ. Smith said:My answer is basically I use software to read ABOUT the Bible, its grammar, structure, etc.; here the appropriate speed is the speed in which I can mentally digest the data presented. I don't use software to study the Bible where the goal is not simply understanding but allowing the scripture to shape me. Here I don't judge tools by time saved but rather by barriers broken.
Lastly, this is a helpful comment by MJ because it shows the diversity of thought we have here, and clues us into the challenge Logos has in creating tools for such a diverse audience. In contrast to MJ, I absolutely judge the tool (bible software) by the time saved. The ability to open BDAG to the exact page I need in literally a few seconds, compared to physically pulling it off the shelf and paging through it is of incredible value to me because it saves me so much time in the long run. This is the same for commentaries, dictionaries, and other resources, plus the ability to search the bible or my resources fast. All of this saves me time, which I can then put to use in writing my sermons etc.
As a quick aside MJ, theologically I don't know how one can understand the bible but not have it shape you? Like, I get that its possible to know a lot about the bible and not be Christian for example, or have an excellent command of the Greek grammar etc and not be a Christian. But if for all that, if they aren't living in faith and repentance to Christ, I'd say they still don't actually understand it. Keen to here what that means for you, especially because it seems to have a big influence in how/why we use logos.
Current MDiv student at Trinity Theological College - Perth, Western Australia
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Here’s the real answer to your question, Mark: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/219708.aspx
DAL
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Richard Wardman said:
So I would prefer you guys to spend less time developing resources or tools that have the aim of making sermon preparation easier or quicker. It shouldn't be easy!
I understand what you mean, but I only partly agree.
It's vital that we wrestle with the text. It's essential we don't take shortcuts. It's necessary that we labor over the message.
At the same time, lexicons make aspects of sermon preparation easier. So do commentaries and theological dictionaries. Heck, my computer itself makes aspects of sermon preparation both easier and quicker than a pen and paper.
Where we especially want to help in the sermon-writing process is in these ways:
- Quickly and easily surface content that answers your questions or raises questions worth wrestling with. If we can put the best answer to your search query at #1 instead of #5, perhaps that gives you ten more minutes to spend on something more productive.
- Reduce the time spent on non-critical work. Things like inserting Bible text into sermons or automatically generating slides fall into this category. The social media posts you mentioned could be thought of like this, too.
- Stimulate your thinking when you're at a dead end (or is it only me that has dead ends?). Perhaps you've ground to a halt thinking of a quote that would make this great point come alive. Or perhaps what you really need are some ideas for an illustration that would help the congregation to apply this truth to their lives. Do you want a copy/paste illustration? I know I don't. But could seeing a few different ideas stimulate you to think of a related illustration that perfectly fits your message and your flock? That's sometimes been my experience.
The things we're trying to do could make aspects of sermon preparation easier and quicker. Not so you can sit on the beach with a piña colada, but so you can reinvest that time into getting an even deeper understanding of the text, or spend more time in prayer, or apply the text more appropriate to your congregation. The overall process shouldn't be easy. But we're dedicated to making some parts of the process easier so you can spend more time on what really matters.
Thanks for your response, Mark. I agree with your disagreement!!
Of course, I do want some aspects of the sermon-writing process to be easier and quicker. That's why I use Logos!!
I guess I'm hesitant about making it so easy that I barely have to use any of the awesome tools in Logos to dig into the text and do some deep thinking myself.
On balance, that's probably more to do with the user than the tool.
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DAL said:
Here’s the real answer to your question, Mark: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/219708.aspx
DAL
DAL - this is exactly my point. You ask for (the bolding is mine) - "similar to a fully functional Microsoft Word document but with other enhancements"....
From best estimates, Microsoft Word is now 50 MILLION lines of code. And your request, with features that are very valid from a user perspective, enhance Word! This will NEVER happen to the satisfaction of users that would want to use it. I wouldn't be surprised if Word was equal to, or greater in lines of code than Logos! It's very easy to underestimate "it's just a word processor, how hard could that be...."
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Don Awalt said:DAL said:
Here’s the real answer to your question, Mark: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/219708.aspx
DAL
DAL - this is exactly my point. You ask for (the bolding is mine) - "similar to a fully functional Microsoft Word document but with other enhancements"....
From best estimates, Microsoft Word is now 50 MILLION lines of code. And your request, with features that are very valid from a user perspective, enhance Word! This will NEVER happen to the satisfaction of users that would want to use it. I wouldn't be surprised if Word was equal to, or greater in lines of code than Logos! It's very easy to underestimate "it's just a word processor, how hard could that be...."
That’s where you are wrong because Accordance already has a lot of the things I’ve asked for; so I find it hard to believe that Logos cannot at least match Accordance with those functionalities.
DAL
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DAL said:Don Awalt said:DAL said:
Here’s the real answer to your question, Mark: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/219708.aspx
DAL
DAL - this is exactly my point. You ask for (the bolding is mine) - "similar to a fully functional Microsoft Word document but with other enhancements"....
From best estimates, Microsoft Word is now 50 MILLION lines of code. And your request, with features that are very valid from a user perspective, enhance Word! This will NEVER happen to the satisfaction of users that would want to use it. I wouldn't be surprised if Word was equal to, or greater in lines of code than Logos! It's very easy to underestimate "it's just a word processor, how hard could that be...."
That’s where you are wrong because Accordance already has a lot of the things I’ve asked for; so I find it hard to believe that Logos cannot at least match Accordance with those functionalities.
DAL
I believe programs, including Logos is only limited by the imagination of the programmers. In that regard, I agree with Dal.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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DAL said:Don Awalt said:DAL said:
Here’s the real answer to your question, Mark: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/219708.aspx
DAL
DAL - this is exactly my point. You ask for (the bolding is mine) - "similar to a fully functional Microsoft Word document but with other enhancements"....
From best estimates, Microsoft Word is now 50 MILLION lines of code. And your request, with features that are very valid from a user perspective, enhance Word! This will NEVER happen to the satisfaction of users that would want to use it. I wouldn't be surprised if Word was equal to, or greater in lines of code than Logos! It's very easy to underestimate "it's just a word processor, how hard could that be...."
That’s where you are wrong because Accordance already has a lot of the things I’ve asked for; so I find it hard to believe that Logos cannot at least match Accordance with those functionalities.
DAL
Perhaps - but that's time and effort taken away from other things they could be working on. In my perfect world there would be much tighter integration between Logos, Word and PowerPoint.
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DAL said:
That’s where you are wrong because Accordance already has a lot of the things I’ve asked for; so I find it hard to believe that Logos cannot at least match Accordance with those functionalities.
Maybe but it's not Microsoft Word - and I was commenting on your assertion that Logos could develop a fully functional Microsoft Word plus enhancements. Accordance does not have that. Maybe offering Logos a suggestion that is more realistic toward what Accordance has, vs. what you suggested, might give them pause to consider it instead of laughing and hitting the delete button.
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Mal Walker said:
theologically I don't know how one can understand the bible but not have it shape you?
Unfortunately, I see it frequently. There are those who read scripture as a love letter from God and those who read scripture as an ancient inspired manuscript to be decoded. Obviously, those are points on a continuum for which neither denomination nor education is a determinate.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I think.... (which some people say I don't know how to do that).... we are seeing in this thread basically two streams of thought....
1. People who want Logos to almost, if not entirely, write their sermon for them --- whereby they give Logos a thought or theme and Logos does the rest. To this I don't agree with. Somehow, someway, God's word needs to be ours, in that we understand it thoroughly and completely, before we can teach it.
2. People who want to develop sermons and use Logos to help them do that. I am 100% in this camp. People in this camp would use Search, Exegetical Guide and such functions to help them in their understanding of the Scripture to be able to teach it.
Maybe I am seeing wrong??
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
2. People who want to develop sermons and use Logos to help them do that. I am 100% in this camp. People in this camp would use Search, Exegetical Guide and such functions to help them in their understanding of the Scripture to be able to teach it.
But we can already do this by using...Logos Bible Software. So...what is the point of a sermon editor?
So is there a third stream of thought?....allow an import of sermons written in Word that would maintain Word's formatting. After import, perhaps give the ability to add photos, pictures, illustrations, create powerpoints that can eventually be exported back to a file format out of Logos. Allow those that want to use the sermon/notes in Logos to do so. Allow those that need or want (for security) to export it out of Logos for preservation can do so. Those that want to publish or have some kind of organizational system of their notes/sermons...the sermon editor can do that too.
Oh and finally, change the name from sermon editor to Personal Bible Study editor.
OR...just continue to develop and/or use Personal Book Builder for your personal Bible study and sermon notes.
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Mark said:
After import, perhaps give the ability to add photos, pictures, illustrations, create powerpoints that can eventually be exported back to a file format out of Logos.
At least least this part of the thought can also all be done in Word.
Mark said:allow an import of sermons written in Word that would maintain Word's formatting. After import, perhaps give the ability to add photos, pictures, illustrations, create powerpoints that can eventually be exported back to a file format out of Logos. Allow those that want to use the sermon/notes in Logos to do so. Allow those that need or want (for security) to export it out of Logos for preservation can do so. Those that want to publish or have some kind of organizational system of their notes/sermons...the sermon editor can do that too.
So what would be the value, ie what unique features would be used, for having it in Logos then, exactly? Just wondering!
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Don Awalt said:
So what would be the value, ie what unique features would be used, for having it in Logos then, exactly? Just wondering!
Don: You are talking the language of a financial economist. I think it would be helpful for Mark Barnes to articulate what this new feature that they have in mind can do that people cannot do with Word & Powerpoint.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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Don Awalt said:
So what would be the value, ie what unique features would be used, for having it in Logos then, exactly? Just wondering!
I preach and do Bible studies directly from Logos. I have a surface pro and in Logos, the Bible(s) are on the left panel and my PBB Notes are in the right panel. So when I hover over Bible verses, the verse can be read. When I click on Bible Passages, the Bible(s) on the left panel open the passages. If I need to open a passage guide during a Bible study, I can do that. In my PBB, I can insert links to library material to enhance my study or teaching duirng a question and answer period. I use power point on a screen, but my sermon or Bible study notes in Logos. For me, it works great.
But one of the greatest value is that my notes are preserved in Word format, can be exported into a pdf...is basically preserved for decades to come. And I can pass on those notes in pdf or Word or other format to friends, family, people who could benefit from them but do not have Logos.
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xnman said:
1. People who want Logos to almost, if not entirely, write their sermon for them --- whereby they give Logos a thought or theme and Logos does the rest. To this I don't agree with. Somehow, someway, God's word needs to be ours, in that we understand it thoroughly and completely, before we can teach it.
For what its worth, here is my not-so-humble 2.5 cents! (an appropriate emoji to be added)
Originality in sermons is overhyped. I would rather have my pastor quote a great illustration that Spurgeon has used than an original illustration concocted by my pastor that doesn't help nail the message he is trying to get across.
What is important is that the message drives home a point (or points) that causes people in the pews to make even one permanent change in their life for the better. God is not sitting on His throne and grading pastors based on originality. What matters is how the sermon advances God's goal.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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1Cor10 31 said:
Originality in sermons is overhyped. I would rather have my pastor quote a great illustration that Spurgeon has used than an original illustration concocted by my pastor that doesn't help nail the message he is trying to get across.
I agree with that.
1Cor10 31 said:What is important is that the message drives home a point (or points) that causes people in the pews to make even one permanent change in their life for the better. God is not sitting on His throne and grading pastors based on originality. What matters is how the sermon advances God's goal.
Agreed - but for this to happen on any kind of consistent basis, I believe that the preacher must have internalized the message of Scripture before standing up to speak. Otherwise, the sermon is likely to come across as perfunctory and inauthentic, rather than heartfelt and sincere. I love tools that make it easier to prepare to present God's Word. But somewhere in the process we have to truly make the message our own if we're going to be effective in presenting it to others. I think that's the fear some have expressed - that we could become so reliant on the tools that we automate that critical internalization step out of the process.
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1Cor10 31 said:
For what its worth, here is my not-so-humble 2.5 cents! (an appropriate emoji to be added)
Originality in sermons is overhyped
Hear Hear
I tell every congregation the first time we meet that if I start telling them something new it is probably wrong. I tell them that I am there to lead a revision session. I tell them that plagiarism is my middle name and virtually all I say will have been said by others before me in one form or another.
The saving grace is that a good deal of what I say will have been said by Jesus.
Logos is a plagiarist dream. ;-)
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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