What am I doing in Logos?

I like Logos... but I don't want to spend my time learning to be a "great book builder". But I do find that in Logos I need to do that... 

What am I  missing?

Can you clarify why you have to build personal books? What is the purpose of your personal books?

I take Notes as I read the Bible and other books (example: commentaries) in Logos, just like you. I try to tag every Note I take just so I can always search my Notes. But I have not felt the need to do Personal Books.

When I want to do a Topic/Theme study, I create a Notebook and just put all the related Notes in that Notebook. When I did a Topic Study for my Men's group, I then organized my Notes in a Word file to present it in a digestible form. Again, not felt the need to do Personal Books

I know, I know...  I'm living in a dream world....  lol 

Please keep dreaming. We need this!  You are highlighting possibilities that could very well be explored. I find your use of PBs fascinating. Would you consider doing a post on here or a blog or screencast somewhere else to describe your work flow?

What I think what you are partly highlighting is limitations in doing research with Logos. When clippings first came out in Logos, I would argue it was a bit ahead of its time. Since then, not much else has been added to aid in research. Accordance added stacks and exporting citations to a citation manager, but they have really declined in quality and it is now the buggiest software on my computer, so I don’t expect any research innovation from them soon. (Logos used to be the buggiest, but the tables have dramatically turned. How times have changed!)

For me, this has meant using additional tools to supplement what Logos (and Accordance) can’t do. For years as a Mac user I have used DevonThink. DevonThink is a freeform type of database that allows you to turn all sorts of information into a personal concordance. Word documents, emails, pdfs, webpages, you name it, most anything can put out into it and indexed, tagged and searched. Plus it has a ‘related’ to type of AI technology that will highlight things in your database that you might have not made the connection to before.

How does this work with Logos? I make clippings in Logos, then export them to DevonThink in RTF format for further processing. I will also copy some notes from Logos and put them in DevonThink with a deep link back to Logos. I started a thread some time back asking Logos to exploit this deep feature further in the Apple ecosystem.  The L4 link was also ahead of its time when it was first rolled out and is invaluable to create connections back to Logos. Now we need support for making links in Logos to other tools. Without such, linking is only one way.

In the last couple of years I have added Obsidian and plain markdown to my workflows and do most of my out in the wild note taking there. My Obsidian vault is indexed in DevonThink so that when I search and use its AI type referral technologipy, I can see this all in one place. 

So where am I going with this? I think we do need to push the boundaries of developments in computer aided research with Logos. There is a feedback on Sending Highlights to Readwise with 198 votes. https://feedback.logos.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/send-highlights-to-readwise There is also a feedback for a Paper Builder with 332 votes. https://feedback.logos.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/paper-builder

I suggest these are market demand indicators for two things. Greater interoperability of Logos with platforms like Readwise and tools to do better research within Logos.

Logos can’t do everything, so it needs to be able to interface with tools that reflect the latest in personal information management systems and strategies such as Zettlekasten. I am personally using Readwise more and more. It dumps my clippings into Obsidian for further processing and is ultimately indexed in DevonThink. Could we explore how Logos could do more of this sort of thing?

Logos also needs better tools to compile within its own ecosystem for research well. I think the Paper builder concept is worth exploring along with deeper linking within Logos notes and with external knowledge management systems.

Yes, let’s dream! We are now carrying around miniature seminary libraries on our computers and there are amazing possibilities to be explored and imagined.  What else could be done with advancements in technology?

I would add to the 1st and 2nd group, another group. It is those who are doing research.  As Logos is used by so many Universities, Seminaries and Bible Translators, it would be interesting to pull them together to look at their work flows with other tools like Obsidian, ReadWise Reader, DevonThink, Anki, Zoterio, etc. and how Logos might fit better within them. I don't think it is any surprise that so many have voted for ReadWise capability with Logos. 

BTW, another feedback item is to create operability between Logos and Anki with 66 votes - https://feedback.logos.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/replace-flashcard-app-with-interface-to-anki

I found this discussion very interesting. To my mind, this is what this forum should be about. It is a great discussion on a meaningful topic. Thanks to all who contributed.

My challenge is that whilst most of my theological ecosystem is in Logos, there is too much content out there I draw from. Web pages, kindle highlights, pdfs, tweets, videos, etc. - so I find my processing of my ideas and clips needs to occur elsewhere and my document writing is done in other tools.

This is where the Readwise integration would be awesome, but for now I have to export clippings to rtf, then convert them to markdown to bring my work in Logos into my Zettlekasten and writing work flows. 

I do some note taking in Logos as well to create intermediate work products and using personal books might be something to explore. 

Apple Spotlight and HoudaSpot also do disc wide searches.  Because I use DevonThink for my knowledge management and it has a level of AI search built in, I rarely need to try to do a deep search... but as you say, it can be nice! 

Any thoughts / insights on any of these things would be helpful in understanding more of what such integrations might need to enable and what they might look like.

From my perspective, there are at least two major strands here, which are both very valid and would enhance everyone's work flows. There are likely others as well and I am always keen to learn how others learn and do research. (i.e. xnman's substantial use of PBs is something I had not considered before in my current workflows)

First, is an enhanced writing and research 'platform' in a paper writing or knowledge processing function within Logos. Tables, headings, composition, linking, import features etc. I would definitely use this when I am working within Logos. Hans van den Herik, MJ Smith and others could articulate this better than I can.

Second, is enhanced interoperability with with other products such as Readwise Reader or Obsidian. To give a bit of background, as a hobbiest researcher there are several methodologies that I draw upon to do my reading and research, because whilst the major part of my research is in Logos, it is not everything.  Kindle for example is one big area because there are some books that will never appear in Logos. Same with PDFs, blog posts, etc.  Yes, you can do some of this in Logos, but it is not optimal and it will likely never be.  That's ok. So I need ways to archive, snag snippets from these channels of information and bring it all together.

To illustrate this kind of flow of information, here is one person's work flows.  Maybe over Christmas I will have time to draw out mine.

My workflows would be different in that alongside Readwise Reader I also have Logos Bible Software. (I used to also use Accordance for exegetical research, but it has become a very buggy piece of software)

I also archive a lot of things in DevonThink as a personal concordance of everything I collect. This ultimately is processed and curated in Obsidian as my 'second brain' then I use Word or iA Writer to write final products or outputs, which then in turn sometimes get turned into Personal Books in Logos, or a blog, a powerpoint, or a talk I am giving, etc.

What has influenced my methods of organising information is several methodologies:

Building A Second Brain - Tiago Forte's book released about a year ago about how to use technology to help you free up your mind for creative work and retain everything at the same time has been very useful to me. I had self developed a lot of this over the last 10 years, but he articulated it in a way that brought it home. In a nutshell, everything is organised in your files against PARA - Projects, Areas, Resources, Archives.

Zettlekasten Method - This is newish to me and this is where Readwise Reader and a linked up notetaking app like Obsidian becomes so invaluable. This method was created by Conrad Gessner, a German author who used index cards to collect atomic thoughts, which you can then build out into bigger ideas, in my terminology, intermediate knowledge products.  At least for me, I have set up my system to develop fleeting ideas, literature notes, keyword notes, permanent notes (the end result)

How To Take Smart Notes - This book by Sonke Ahrens influenced me to move beyond note taking and get into note making. This pushes me outside of Logos because there are too many times and ways I collect information that I am pondering which is outside the Logos ecosystem. I even still use a notebook that I keep in my pocket so that when I am out on a walk I can capture an idea that entered into my head. Sometimes analogue is good too! I also use my iPhone, so that my thoughts automatically appear on my computer when I am back in my study.

There have been other materials like "How to Read a Book", "Get Things Done" and the "Bullet Journal Method" which I have also imported some elements from into my workflows, which form my strategy of Personal Knowledge Management.  I think what Logos needs is to be more fine tuned to this for those that pursue this type of research discipline.

I use a combination of PARA and Zettlekasten as the foundation of my 'second brain' in Obsidian. The reason for this is that life and research happen together. This is congruent with me living my faith out. So I needed to be more than just a hobbiest researcher and writer, I need to be able to journal and manage projects.  In my ecosystem of processing they can interact, but also stand alone.  Here's my curret file structure. The beauty of linking your thinking through this kind of notetaking is that you don't have to be siloed.

So what does Logos need to be optimised in order to fit into a Personal Knowledge Management (PKM) System?  It actually has some of what I would like and it just needs to be enhanced.

Deep linking - we already have the L4 linking mechanism, but it is currently not possible to link a resource back to Logos. I posted on here some time ago that Logos should adopt common linking standards such as the consortium behind HookMark. 

Highlights or clipping exporting to other platforms like Readwise and Obsidian - I currently take clippings, export them manually in RTF format, and then convert them to Markdown format for Zettlekasten type processing in Obsidian.  I would love it if they could be sent to Readwise, so that they would be co-mingled with Kindle highlights at that stage, but at least good Markdown export for Obsidian would be a time saver.

Additionally, two other things to consider:

Using standard data storage methods - This is a big ask, I know because the Logos' note taking file system is so unique and it may not be possible. If Logos could use something like markdown, it would create the ability for it's data vault to be accessed and indexed by other systems like DevonThink. Regardless, one of the beauties of markdown is that the file format is not locked into any one system, so that future proofs your work in case the company or software platform goes bust.

Additional methods of importing and managing knowledge - for my workflows, I do not currently need this, but interoperability goes both ways. What if highlights could be brought into Logos from other tools?  For those that use Logos as their final knowledge processor, I could see enhancements that could possibility be considered. Enhanced linking of notes within the Logos ecosystem would be so powerful, particularly in creating link maps similar to Obsidian to see where clusters of thoughts are coming together is really useful.  Here is my current knowledge universe according to Obsidian. Could we have heat maps of our Logos research like this?  Could Logos consider how to help people see their research and note taking data in different ways, beyond the current conventional methods?  

Also, a paper builder with AI alongside. There is a feedback just getting off of the ground - https://feedback.logos.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/sermon-builder-integrate-generative-ai  Readwise allows me to triage things I want to study further by using AI to further summarise the content I am currently looking at. I know this is already on the table with Logos and I look forward to seeing this tool be used further.  Other AI examples, could AI direct me to resources within or outside the Logos ecosystem that I am not even aware of yet? DevonThink has done this for years within it's own database.

Let's not forget the feedback on being able to use Grammarly in Logos with 54 votes so far - https://feedback.logos.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/working-with-grammarly

Last, if Logos wanted to be cutting edge, I think some well thought out APIs would be interesting to let the research community explore ways that we aren't even thinking about. For example, I know a couple of friends who use Logos as part of Bible translation work. What ways could interfaces be created with workflows in other tools to be even more effective.

All this to say, we have such an amazing amount of quality information in Logos. I think being able to use this in a whole ecosystem of learning and knowledge management is where the future lies.

I hope this is helpful... probably a bit too intense as I geek out on this and not everyone is in this space for sure!  Please extend grace if you rolled your eyes at any one point!  [:D]

It is interesting you should mention Bob. He came to mind when I was writing this post. Yes, he very much used to get onto the USENET newsgroups, and then these forums to banter about blue sky and cutting edge ideas.  I still remember a thread about coming to the Apple software platform that I know set some of the balls in motion for what is now the Logos Mac OS product.

I deeply appreciated earlier this year that the Logos CEO Vik Rajagopal posted to this forum. It was wonderful to interact and talk about the future. None of us that posted to that thread expected that everything we wished for can be done, but it was waaaaaay cool to get inside his brain space and fire off some thoughts back. (I will continue to push for the topic that I raised years ago with Bob in an email and then more recently in Vik's June post, that there is a potent nexus between mapping, imagery and archeology for setting context for theological studies - I am hopeful that the feedback on an Archeaology Data Set with 94 votes will be a step in that direction - https://feedback.logos.com/boards/logos-data-sets/posts/archaeology-data-set - on a twin track I would love to see BAR return to Logos, along with some other resources.)

"Research" can be a big banner for a lot of things, but one of the elements that has drawn and kept me on Logos all these years through thick and thin, is this element. It appeared to me that it was deep in the DNA of Logos in those early days, even in the name Logos Research Systems and the Libronix Digital Library System. I am really pleased for the refinements, speed and stability of Logos 10, and I am very hopeful we can get back into a cutting edge mode while some of the continued improvement in finishing up projects occurs on a twin track.  I am always happy when I read you, M.J., Graham, Dave, etc's contribute thoughts to this and I usually have little to further to add or contribute.

We have made some huge investments in our libraries over the years and I hope part of the amplifier is the leveraging of this extraordinary and historic amount of quality information by brainstorming technological advancements, for all levels of use, including research. I also hope that Logos does not become an island to itself.  There are too many web pages, pdfs, podcasts, rss feeds, on complimentary and pertinent theological subjects that will never make it into Logos.  For that, we need to understand the latest in personal research and knowledge managment workflows, alongside complementary technologies that can take off and interact where Logos stops.

Exciting possibilities to dream about, and in the early days caused me to spend too much time on these forums. Let's not stop dreaming... Also, is it really necessary to wait two years see a major version of Logos?  I wonder if more frequent developments would add a bit more zing, with the occasional major refresh and configuration of base packages.  I'm just sayin... [:P] 

BONUS: It would be a great Christmas bonus if Vik Rajagopal would comment with what he sees afresh on the horizon! [;)]

BONUS, BONUS: Whilst roles have changed, a Christmas greeting from Bob Pritchett would also be fun - where is Bob and what is up to these days!?!

BONUS, BONUS: Whilst roles have changed, a Christmas greeting from Bob Pritchett would also be fun - where is Bob and what is up to these days!?!

He has founded a new company: 

"Lawyers are paid to think, not to wrestle with Microsoft Word. At AllDrafts we're building a smart, cloud-based, collaboration-enabled tool for drafting contracts, from need to signature. AllDrafts takes care of the tedious details of document preparation so you can focus on your client, not your tools."

According to his LinkedIn profile, he's still on the Board of Logos.

But it does need to provide enough functionality for those people who don't have the other products and particularly where integrations do not exist

This is + will be me.  Apt in the app!