Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos
Comments
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This puts us with no improvements unless we go subscription. I would rather be able to pay for new features. This is what the rest of the people are saying. Again there are some people who are on limited income
I want to be able to buy books in 2025...6...7...etc. The improvements I would need are ones Logos installs to enable me to use these books. I highlight, read the Bible verses, read the subscripts, + create a few notes.
Say I say no to a subscription; Would I then be unable to buy new ones 2,3,4 years down the road?
Hey, a new Tom Schreiner book comes out in 2026. Because I didn't subscribe, I can't buy it. Is this my Logos future?
Thank you Mark for your answer.
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I have thought long and hard about what my response to the core question about switching to a subscription-based model would be. If I were to share everything that I have thought, it would be a rather lengthy post to an already lengthy thread, so I will make it rather short and to the point (at least for me).
My great desire is to own everything that I might use in Logos so that it is readily available for my Bible study.
My great need is for Logos to always be there as a company with a product that I can use to aid in my Bible study.
I appreciate the honesty and willingness of both Phil and Mark to come to us, as users of Logos, for input as to what the future for Logos might be. Every other business that I use that has switched to a subscription model, did so without any input whatsoever from the customer base.
Technology changes through time, and while I might not like it, I understand that change is inevitable. Those who refuse to accept change are largely left behind. There has generally been little need for handwritten books since the invention of the printing press.
Therefore, I will continue to use Logos with the hope that what I purchase will continue to be mine, and that anything that I may receive through subscription will only help to improve the tools that I already have within Logos that I use to aid me in my Bible study.
One thing is for certain, I will not throw away all of the wonderful tools that I have within Logos just because they decide to change their business model. To do so would be rather foolish in my opinion.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Technology changes through time, and while I might not like it, I understand that change is inevitable.
I remember when it cost $500 for Microsoft Word. Now I get the entire Office Suite for just a few dollars a month. I remember hating the idea of not owning my own music, and now I can't imagine having to pay for each song I want to hear on iTunes or Spotify.
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I would rather be able to pay for new features. Again there are some people who are on limited income. It is a good possibility you will not retain them as customers.
How is it possible to be able to pay for new features, but not able to pay for a subscription?
There is a BIG difference, Mark. Let's say that a collection of new features *could* be sold, as as been done in the past, for $150 one-time, to get a perpetual license to them.
But if the *only* means of accessing those features (ever) is to pay a $15 subscription every month forever and ever, then EVERY MONTH AFTER THE FIRST TEN MONTHS of rental, we are paying more and More and MORE for the same features.
Sure, there might be other benefits to the subscription, like AI, which REQUIRE cloud access and ongoing costs ... unlike the features that were coded up and then completed. But it should be obvious from the many responses here that many existing long-term customers don't want that extra stuff.
THAT's The Difference.
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Okay, look, it appears from Mark Barnes' recent replies that WE ARE STUCK. ALL future non-books stuff will be ONLY via subscription, even those non-online things that could be offered perpetually. So, here is my SUGGESTION to make the best of a bad deal ...
Mark and Phil ... PLEASE create a FAIR-PRICE subscription alternative that ONLY funds new features that are NOT AI or cloud based. And please make sure internally that you're using those funds just for those tasks. Ideally, in the future, you'll realize how badly this decision has treated your customers, and then you can choose to immediately and retroactively provide perpetual licenses to all those who have been paying the subscription for these types of feature updates. Otherwise, many of us will simply feel that we've been bilked, to put it mildly.
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
I remember when it cost $500 for Microsoft Word. Now I get the entire Office Suite for just a few dollars a month. I remember hating the idea of not owning my own music, and now I can't imagine having to pay for each song I want to hear on iTunes or Spotify.
O yes! I went the Microsoft 365 route kicking and screaming; now I can't understand why I didn't do it earlier.
My music service (which costs more than the initial Logos Pro subscription by the way) is far easier to use than all the albums, 8-tracks, cassette tapes, and CDs that I have used in the past. It would be nice to have all the money that I have poured into them through the decades, but of course that is unrealistic as time continues to move on. It is awesome though that I can listen to most of them through my music service.
If I had to choose though, Logos is far more important than my music service.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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But if the *only* means of accessing those features (ever) is to pay a $15 subscription every month forever and ever, then EVERY MONTH AFTER THE FIRST TEN MONTHS of rental, we are paying more and More and MORE for the same features.
Isn't that a lot like saying it's cheaper to buy Microsoft Word 1.0 for $500 than it is to pay $10/month for an Office365 subscription? If I'm still using Word 1.0 that I purchased in 1989, then I've saved a lot of money. But nobody does that, especially not most of the avid Logos users who post on these forums.
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Major improvements will certainly be delivered to subscribers only.
But I appreciate there's a grey area in the middle, and that's what you're asking about.
No doubt there will be occasions where we deliver small improvements to non-subscribers, perhaps particularly on those occasions where something feels broken. But the bulk of improvements will certainly be subscription only.
I feel better about this change whenever Phil posts (he's always been stellar in the forums) and worse about it when Mark does.
At some point I suggest you guys put your heads together, get everyone one on the same page, and figure out exactly what you're doing. Further belabouring of the points is going to reach the point where it brings more smoke than light until you can give concrete and certain specifics.
This was my feeling as well, mostly because Phil seems to have left open the possibility that they are still deciding if some major feature upgrades would be offered as separate one-time purchases that you would own, which Mark then slammed the door closed on what this statement:
Major improvements will certainly be delivered to subscribers only.
With the certainty that all new major improvements/features will be accessible to "subscribers only," it seems their decision has unfortunately been made.
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Subscription vs. 1-time purchase:
Using simple finance principles, we can convert a subscription price into a 1-time purchase price. To estimate this equivalent 1-time purchase, I first need to give an analogy.
Let’s say you put $1000 in a bank and the bank pays you interest @5% per year. That means you will receive $50/year forever into the future. That means that you will be indifferent between receiving $50/year forever into the future and receiving $1000 today. You won’t say that one option is better than the other option. So the key to finding an equivalent 1-time purchase price equivalent of a subscription price is the rate at which you are willing to tradeoff future streams of cash against the current lumpsum. In this example, it is 5% - to avoid getting technical, let’s call it the “tradeoff rate”.
Assuming the same tradeoff rate of 5%, we can ask: what is the 1-time equivalent purchase price of a collection of features? Let’s say that subscription costs $100/year forever into the future. The 1-time equivalent purchase price is 100/0.05 = $2,000.
But what matters is not the customers tradeoff rate, but Logos’s tradeoff rate. My thinking is that the tradeoff rate for Logos is in the 10% - 20% range. If it is 10%, the 1-time subscription price would be $100/0.10 = $1000. If it is 20%, the 1-time subscription price would be $100/0.20 = $500.
Bottom line: Subscription by itself is not obnoxious as some people have said. The question is: what is the appropriate subscription price given the feature set?
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God
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A simple announcement that feature upgrade sets will be offered for purchase periodically to non subscribers, albeit without those features which require AI and cloud-based services, would be of enormous help in quelling the fears that are currently running rampant. Please directly address this question as soon as possible.
Agreed, but Mark has addressed this, and it has already been decided that this will not be the case unfortunately:
Major improvements will certainly be delivered to subscribers only.
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THAT's The Difference.
Jim, thank you for your persistence on this.
I am retired, on a fixed income. I figure I use less tools than you, but I am at my Logos desk 7 days a week. A headwind for me is the Canadian $ is worth less than the USD: currently at a 35% deficit.
I have no USA subscriptions now; I have Canadian ones. One such to Bellingham produces an unwelcome variable.
I'd prefer to buy tools + data sets.
Again, thanks, man.
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Major improvements will certainly be delivered to subscribers only.
But I appreciate there's a grey area in the middle, and that's what you're asking about.
No doubt there will be occasions where we deliver small improvements to non-subscribers, perhaps particularly on those occasions where something feels broken. But the bulk of improvements will certainly be subscription only.
I feel better about this change whenever Phil posts (he's always been stellar in the forums) and worse about it when Mark does.
At some point I suggest you guys put your heads together, get everyone one on the same page, and figure out exactly what you're doing. Further belabouring of the points is going to reach the point where it brings more smoke than light until you can give concrete and certain specifics.
This was my feeling as well, mostly because Phil seems to have left open the possibility that they are still deciding if some major feature upgrades would be offered as separate one-time purchases that you would own, which Mark then slammed the door closed on what this statement:
Major improvements will certainly be delivered to subscribers only.
With the certainty that all new major improvements/features will be accessible to "subscribers only," it seems their decision has unfortunately been made.
This is why there's so much confusion over all this. It doesn't seem like even everyone at Logos is on the same page.
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We’re still thinking through what that means for purchasable feature sets, and we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you, knowing that you’d miss out on all the AI and cloud-backed features along with regular updates.
This doesn't make sense. Why ask for feedback regarding if people would like to have (limited) purchasable feature sets, only to slam the door shut one week later? Sure there have been some people who said they don't see the need for purchasable feature sets, but for the most part the answer from the user base has been, "Yes please!" Why ask, if you won't take the feedback into consideration?
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I will probably subscribe because I believe in Logos Bible Software but I have not needed AI ever. The bible software functions great so why would I even try it?
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According to this I am eligible, but when I click on "manage subscription" it just shows me my Faithlife Connect Essentials (no library) annual subscription and lets me edit my credit card. Nothing shows up about Logos Pro. So, the question is, am I missing something on the site or is my Faithlife Connect Essentials package not giving me all the features that I thought it was? What do I need to do to subscribe?
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So by way of summary, followed by a few questions and opinions:
In about 6 months, when there would usually be a new version of Logos, there will be a new version of Logos but with differences.
- The three elements of a Logos package will be separated out.
- The engine that opens books, searches them, copies, etc. will, as now be free. (I assume basic search, copy, and one or two other things are classed as part of the basic engine.)
- The books will, as now, be available for purchase and will be perpetually stored on the user's computer(s). Packaged bundles, akin to the legacy libraries or current packages without features, will still be available. These may or may not be updated on an annual or biennial basis.
- The feature sets, which do most of the 'heavy lifting' will be available on a monthly subscription basis. This will enable them to be updated on a more regular basis than the current once every two years. Different tiers (four?) of subscription are envisaged.
- Verbum will have its own subscription model along the same lines.
Some questions:
- Will the engine update be at the same time for everyone or, as now for those not upgrading, about 6 months later for those not subscribing?
- Will the same variety of denominational and level packages continue to be available? The recent trend has been to increase these which is, I think, mainly a good thing.
- As others have questioned, will there be an option to buy features at the end of a certain amount of subscription time?
- The argument for the subscription model is based partly on the cost of using AI features. Can the AI features be a separate part of subscription packages? (In other words, Level 1, Level 1 + AI, Level 2, Level 2 + AI, etc.)
- The current feature sets are slightly different for Verbum compared with Logos. Is this going to continue? If so, will there be dynamic pricing (as now) for someone subscribing to both feature sets?
- The subscription for Logos Pro includes, presumably classed as features, several books that are currently available to purchase as books (e.g., Lexham Geographic Commentaries). Will these still be available separately?
- Will the Academic Discount system apply to subscriptions?
- The Logos Pro subscription currently available includes a discount over what would be the price for those coming in new to Logos. How long will this discount last? When the new model rolls out, will there be discounts applied for those who have already purchased most of the features included in 'Logos 11'?
That's probably enough questions for now.
Personally, although I understand the reasoning behind it, I'm not a fan of the subscription model. From what I've seen of what's available on Logos Pro (admittedly, just a quick glance), I'm somewhat underwhelmed. Certainly, I don't want a asystem deciding what my most relevant search results are and then summarising them; I can estimate that for a search just by looking at what book the result is in. The summarisation sidebar might be useful; one of the disadvantages (in my opinion) of electronic books is that it's much more difficult to flick through a chapter to get a feel of whether it'll be useful. The Sermon Assistant does not seem to be of any use to me at the moment, although I wouldn't rule out it having some uses (although not much) in the future.
Like many here, I've invested a lot in Logos over the last few years. Not only do I not want to lose the benefits of that, I also want Logos to succeed because it is a good thing.
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Isn't that a lot like saying it's cheaper to buy Microsoft Word 1.0 for $500 than it is to pay $10/month for an Office365 subscription? If I'm still using Word 1.0 that I purchased in 1989, then I've saved a lot of money. But nobody does that, especially not most of the avid Logos users who post on these forums.
The comparison to Microsoft Office isn't entirely apt.
Many enthusiastic Logos users have already invested in thousands of books, acknowledging that they may never get around to reading them all. However, the value of these extensive libraries lies in their efficient organization and utilization within the software.
Historically, Logos has justified the prices of its books and resources by highlighting the software's ability to manage large libraries effectively. Customers have been attracted to the promise of a powerful software platform that enhances the value of their extensive book collections.
However, Logos's approach has changed significantly. Instead of emphasizing the software's role in augmenting the value of purchased books, they're introducing a still-developing AI as the primary justification for a monthly subscription. This departure suggests a departure from the previous model, where software functionality justified investing in numerous books. I still cannot grasp how a company could compare the stupidity of AI with the ageless wisdom within a theological library and its pages and value it so highly that it could change a whole business model upon it.
Microsoft still provides perpetual licenses for their software, and iTunes continues to sell songs for permanent ownership. Apple offers their software, such as the operating system and office applications, for free. In the case of Logos, we not only have to pay more to use their service in the future, but we also won't own what we pay for. This can be frustrating for customers since Logos will make a profit while we won't have permanent ownership. That is really frustrating!
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For what it's worth, a few years ago I purchased a Logos 8 base package that included the full feature set. When Logos 9 was released, I paid ~$200 for the full feature set upgrade from Logos 8 to Logos 9. In 2022, the full feature set upgrade from Logos 9 to Logos 10 cost ~$200 (without any discounts). The past trend shows that the full feature upgrade from Logos 10 to Logos 11 should be ~$200. With Ai-functionality and accounting for some inflation, $10/month is a very reasonable amount to pay for the latest Logos features.
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Verbum will have its own subscription model along the same lines.
Thank you, Bede you did a good job summarizing. This final observation surprised me. Has it been indicated that Logos and Verbum will no longer come joined and therefor require separate subscriptions?Another question arises. As an early adopter when the new tiers are finalized will they come at a special price advantaged to those who chose to support the advanced roll out?
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.1 1TB SSD
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I own A lot of content for school and ministry and I will not be subscribing.
You realize you can continue to use Logos without subscribing to anything, right?
Mark you’re a wonderful apologist for this move. You’ve been a busy boy!!.
You also might be missing the main point of my concern, that smaller fish like me who wish to curate their own libraries on their own budgets will no longer be the focus of future marketing. Also, past purchases were based in some part to continued development of the ownership Of my library. The development part currently being on trial. These things all feel like a loss to me of a product for which I’ve been a very loud advocate within my own circles. I will likely never feel comfortable with AI created explanations, summaries, teaching and illustrations. Ive seen the demos and I don’t like it. I don’t think delegation of hermeneutics and application of scripture to a crowd mimicking A.I. will ever be a wise or a good move. I will likely also never feel great about subscription (rather than ownership) based biblical libraries. Especially in light of adding up the cost of all the subscriptions out there now And the instability of the marketplace, and the instability of the finances of so many small church and bivocational pastors.This shift feels like a major loss because it’s not something I am in the position to support.
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Isn't that a lot like saying it's cheaper to buy Microsoft Word 1.0 for $500 than it is to pay $10/month for an Office365 subscription? If I'm still using Word 1.0 that I purchased in 1989, then I've saved a lot of money. But nobody does that, especially not most of the avid Logos users who post on these forums.
The comparison to Microsoft Office isn't entirely apt.
Many enthusiastic Logos users have already invested in thousands of books, acknowledging that they may never get around to reading them all. However, the value of these extensive libraries lies in their efficient organization and utilization within the software.
Historically, Logos has justified the prices of its books and resources by highlighting the software's ability to manage large libraries effectively. Customers have been attracted to the promise of a powerful software platform that enhances the value of their extensive book collections.
However, Logos's approach has changed significantly. Instead of emphasizing the software's role in augmenting the value of purchased books, they're introducing a still-developing AI as the primary justification for a monthly subscription. This departure suggests a departure from the previous model, where software functionality justified investing in numerous books. I still cannot grasp how a company could compare the stupidity of AI with the ageless wisdom within a theological library and its pages and value it so highly that it could change a whole business model upon it.
Microsoft still provides perpetual licenses for their software, and iTunes continues to sell songs for permanent ownership. Apple offers their software, such as the operating system and office applications, for free. In the case of Logos, we not only have to pay more to use their service in the future, but we also won't own what we pay for. This can be frustrating for customers since Logos will make a profit while we won't have permanent ownership. That is really frustrating!
Any comparison is going to be different. Every company sells different products for different reasons. That being said, the comparison to Microsoft is not so far off in my opinion. Logos will still offer their basic engine for free. Logos will still offer books to be purchased. For many, Logos should still work just the same as it has always worked. For others there will be a change, particularly if we want to stay up to date on the most recent tools.
I moved from Microsoft Office to Microsoft 365 due to a computer crash where I lost my currently owned at the time Microsoft Office and sadly, could not find my code to reinstall it (my fault). I tried to use open versions of word processing software for a while. It worked very well, considering it was free, but it had some issues that Microsoft Office did not have.
I compared buying a new version of Microsoft Office (ridiculously expensive in my opinion, and I have paid a pretty penny through the years for new versions) to a subscription to Microsoft 365. While I didn't “own” Microsoft Office, the subscription came with many bonuses that I have come to rely on. It also continuously updates with new improvements that I would only get in an owned version if I purchased a newer version to replace any currently owned version.
As much as I enjoy having “ownership” of products, I am very unlikely to go back to a “bought” version of Microsoft Office.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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I still cannot grasp how a company could compare the stupidity of AI with the ageless wisdom within a theological library
The point of AI is that it allows you to easily find what you're looking for in the thousands of volumes you own, and summarizes the content instead of just showing you a few paragraphs. And that's just the beginning of what AI can be leveraged to do. "Ageless wisdom" is worthless if you never read it.
Microsoft still provides perpetual licenses for their software,
If you already own Logos, you have a "perpetual license."
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Annual Subscription fee option gets my vote. I would hate to have to think about every month. While dealing with everything that life throws up. Annual payment would be next best thing to buying perpetual licensing.
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Annual Subscription fee option gets my vote. I would hate to have to think about every month. While dealing with everything that life throws up. Annual payment would be next best thing to buying perpetual licensing.
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Annual Subscription fee option gets my vote. I would hate to have to think about every month. While dealing with everything that life throws up. Annual payment would be next best thing to buying perpetual licensing.
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Annual Subscription fee option gets my vote. I would hate to have to think about every month. While dealing with everything that life throws up. Annual payment would be next best thing to buying perpetual licensing.
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Annual Subscription fee option gets my vote. I would hate to have to think about every month. While dealing with everything that life throws up. Annual payment would be next best thing to buying perpetual licensing.
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Few here would disagree LOGOS is the best study Bible software platform available for multiple reasons. All the people I have dealt with are simply incredible and a pleasure. The overwhelming majority are wary and opposed to the subscription model for logical, historical, and good reasons.
Few take the time to read the many terms of service (TOS) changes they are now bombarded with from banks to Amazon. Most of these business model changes have shifted from customer service, to they own you, there is no debate on that. If you do not take a lot of time constantly opting out (if available) of this or that, they control and use you.
LOGOS is a for profit (gain) business, and not a faith-based organization or charity. I have found no corporate statement of faith, etc. There is nothing necessarily wrong with that.
Thus far is sounds like these T.O.S. changes are set in concrete. Unlike the forming one world system, at least they are allowing a period of venting opinions. None the less, it appears they will join the ranks of the global system regardless of their customer base opinion, like it or not.
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Annual Subscription fee option gets my vote. I would hate to have to think about every month. While dealing with everything that life throws up. Annual payment would be next best thing to buying perpetual licensing.
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My number one concern is, if new features are subscription-based and, after a time, I find that I can no longer afford a monthly subscription, I will lose those features (and, I assume, any projects I have produced with them, since they will require the feature with which they were produced).
Being able to purchase permanent licensing, even if its sporadic and leaves me a bit in the dust, would eliminate this promise. While this isn't a crudial issue this early in the game (we are promised reversion to Logos 10), it will be come a greater concern as the software, and its features, develop further from the current version.
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Great point Bob. If I start relying on the subscription provided tools to craft sermons and notes… then I can’t afford it anymore… there goes all my personal content crated with those subscription tools. So much of my study process involves imagining how I will access and use it in The future… Bible study? Sermon? Book I’m writing? Subscription really dampens that.
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