Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos
Comments
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Erik said:
If I've read the entire thread correctly, anyone that currently subscribes to Connect Essentials and does not separately own the Full Feature Set will eventually need to purchase a higher tier of Logos Pro to obtain the same datasets/features they currently enjoy under Connect Essentials. Is that correct?
As a current subscriber, you will receive confirmation later in the year about the tiers & pricing of the new subscription (Logos Pro is stated to be tier 3 of 4). But it appears you will need a higher tier to receive the Full Features of L10.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Erik said:
If I've read the entire thread correctly, anyone that currently subscribes to Connect Essentials and does not separately own the Full Feature Set will eventually need to purchase a higher tier of Logos Pro to obtain the same datasets/features they currently enjoy under Connect Essentials. Is that correct?
It's certainly true that Logos Pro does not include all the features that are currently available in Connect Essentials.
However, there will be a migration path for all our existing subscribers. Several years ago, we announced a migration plan from Logos Now to Connect, which would have forced users to either lose their features or pay double the amount. Rightly, we quickly reverted that decision. We are not going to repeat that mistake this time.
That said, we have many different subscriptions, so setting out the migration path for each one will take a little while. We'll get it done before the new subscriptions launch in the fall.
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Perhaps some type of a la carte options would be considered for subscriptions?
- AI
- features geared towards pastors
- general features geared towards everyone
- many different book package options
- etcThe more options you pick, the greater the discount (either a flat $ or a %)
Excluding the issue of renting vs owning, I would assume that the next biggest problem people have with subscriptions is having to pay (or feeling you are paying) for things you don't want or or won't use or already own.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
It's certainly true that Logos Pro does not include all the features that are currently available in Connect Essentials.
However, there will be a migration path for all our existing subscribers. Several years ago, we announced a migration plan from Logos Now to Connect, which would have forced users to either lose their features or pay double the amount. Rightly, we quickly reverted that decision. We are not going to repeat that mistake this time.
That said, we have many different subscriptions, so setting out the migration path for each one will take a little while. We'll get it done before the new subscriptions launch in the fall.
Thanks Mark. I was a Logos Now subscriber and transitioned to Connect Essentials when that all went down. As a result, I never felt the need to purchase the Full Feature Set as each new version of Logos was released.
The difficulty for me at present is determining whether it makes sense to purchase the Full Feature Set or just continue with the status quo. I currently have a Connect Essentials subscription through 1/30/2025 and I am planning on signing up for the Logos Pro trial.
Like Tes earlier in this thread, I am finding it difficult to make an informed and cost conscious decision. Perhaps that isn't possible until the tiers and applicable pricing are better defined.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
It's certainly true that Logos Pro does not include all the features that are currently available in Connect Essentials.
However, there will be a migration path for all our existing subscribers. Several years ago, we announced a migration plan from Logos Now to Connect, which would have forced users to either lose their features or pay double the amount. Rightly, we quickly reverted that decision. We are not going to repeat that mistake this time.
Thanks Mark. That is very reassuring. I'm holding off, then, on deciding whether to purchase the full feature set and then be restricted to those, or migrate from the Connect Essentials to a tier on the subscription later on. My decision will be based on cost/benefit and my forward-looking financial situation at that time. But where possible, I'd prefer to be able to contribute towards the longer term good of the company by taking up a subscription, all else being relatively equal.
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The problem I’ve always had with Logos is that, for all the money I’ve spent, I don’t really own anything. Unless I update my program every once in awhile, or pay for a monthly subscription, I can’t access what I’ve purchased. I spent money on both Biblesoft and QuickVerse and have nothing to show for it.
I’m not saying Logos is going out of business. If they did, however, I would be left with nothing. I know people are saying Logos is not going away. But statements about them having to go to subscriptions for financial reasons, doesn’t give me great assurance.
I’m not a fan of subscriptions. Especially for books. I already purchased them. Why should I have to spend money each month in order to read them?
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Donald O. Ebert said:
I’m not saying Logos is going out of business. If they did, however, I would be left with nothing.
This statement, Donald, is patently false!
If Logos went out of business up would be left with the Engine which you have upgraded over the years without cost. You would also be left with any functions that you have purchased and that do not require internet access to use. You would also be left with all the resources that you have downloaded onto your computer.
This hardly counts as nothing and that is the almost the worst scenario one could paint.
The worst scenario is that society will have collapsed to such an extent that a paper bible is all that will be available to those who hold the faith and time for study will be severely limited by the need to scavenge for food.
The most likely scenario is that Logos will continue well past the time you have the wit to make use of it and that you will have been able to pass the, then rather outdated library, to some ungrateful knave who will ignore it.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Mike Binks said:
The worst scenario is that society will have collapsed to such an extent that a paper bible is all that will be available to those who hold the faith and time for study will be severely limited by the need to scavenge for food.
I can see you've not been doing your apocalyptic homework. Any self-respecting Logosian isn't going to go traipsing off looking for food, instead of running just one more passage guide on that last bit of battery power.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Donald O. Ebert said:
The problem I’ve always had with Logos is that, for all the money I’ve spent, I don’t really own anything. Unless I update my program every once in awhile, or pay for a monthly subscription, I can’t access what I’ve purchased. I spent money on both Biblesoft and QuickVerse and have nothing to show for it.
I’m not saying Logos is going out of business. If they did, however, I would be left with nothing. I know people are saying Logos is not going away. But statements about them having to go to subscriptions for financial reasons, doesn’t give me great assurance.
I’m not a fan of subscriptions. Especially for books. I already purchased them. Why should I have to spend money each month in order to read them?
I've always been surprised they haven't sought to expand their scope. Leave the Logos side separate, but just like they have Logos and Verbum (and your books can be read in either), why not expand those to include others geared towards other academic disciplines? The same basic principles that makes Logos shine with Bible study will make it work very well with many others. That could be an opportunity for a lot of growth in that direction.
Odd fact: There was once a hobby train magazine that used Libronix for it's back issues. I can't remember what it's called.
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Donnie said:
Logos and Verbum (and your books can be read in either), why not expand those to include others geared towards other academic disciplines?
They more-or-less already tried this. It was called NOET and it did not work out for them. The Noet app was a scaled down version of Logos. All of the resources from the old Noet site could (and still can) be used by the regular Logos app.
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We've really valued your feedback on this thread. We've read every comment and discussed many of them.
If you have five minutes, we'd appreciate you completing this survey.
Completing the survey will help us better understand your desires and concerns as we move towards subscription.
Thanks for your ongoing help!
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WOW, I did not get any notice of this issue. I am a very engaged user of Logos 10 with more than 17,000 resources. I only found this thread because someone posted in MP SEMINARS.
I have not changed my email address or anything else on my account.
I have a lot of catch up but maybe not in time to make an informed decision.
This is very disturbing. I don't want to lose my access to $25,000 worth of investment.
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Alan Hart said:
. I don't want to lose my access to $25,000 worth of investment.
The proposed subscription makes absolutely no difference in you access to your resources.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Alan Hart said:
WOW, I did not get any notice of this issue. I am a very engaged user of Logos 10 with more than 17,000 resources. I only found this thread because someone posted in MP SEMINARS.
I have not changed my email address or anything else on my account.
I have a lot of catch up but maybe not in time to make an informed decision.
This is very disturbing. I don't want to lose my access to $25,000 worth of investment.
Alan: see the post above yours. Click survey. See Question 2. There are 2 posts by Mark Barnes you can read to find out what's up.
You can exit the survey without filling it out by using your browser's 'X.'
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I guess it is not the resources but the ability to tap into the resources with the newer features. I feel like not having those new features, unless I subscribe, feels similar to losing "access." I hope that eventually, the full new features, will become of future version of Logos (L11, etc.), for those that subscription payment may not work for them.
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Ram Teodosio said:
I hope that eventually, the full new features, will become of future version of Logos (L11, etc.), for those that subscription payment may not work for them.
That hope, a Perpetual license, is under consideration, but don't think in terms of Logos 11, etc as new features will be made available to subscribers fairly frequently. Logos 10 may be the last of that genre of "packaged" releases, including base packages for books, as the two year release cycle will no longer apply.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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One thing I haven't really seen addressed, or possibly missed it - what does this proposed change do for Beta testers?
I will NOT subscribe, but have looked at the books that would be gained - little interest, especially starting at $9.99 a month...
So looking at those with larger libraries and the Logos 10 Feature Set (which gives the discounted price from my understanding) - Logos is now basically going to be a paid Beta test? As new features were always in the Beta testing period for free, which allowed users to try them out to see if they were worth the purchase when released to stable....
Is free access to the new features during Beta also going away?
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
Is free access to the new features during Beta also going away?
See https://wiki.logos.com/Logos_33.0_Beta_4
Note: The same applied to the AI features released in v32.0, but that temporary license has expired
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:Frank Sauer said:
Is free access to the new features during Beta also going away?
See https://wiki.logos.com/Logos_33.0_Beta_4
Note: The same applied to the AI features released in v32.0, but that temporary license has expired
That part I understood - I'm speaking of going forward. Mostly for those of us who have the Feature Set and larger libraries or don't value the books that would be gained with a subscription.
My question was more geared toward once the subscription only model is activated (hopefully reconsidered) - it seems to be the equivalent of a Beta for long time users with the large libraries and Feature Sets - as you'd only be paying for "new" features that were traditionally available for trial at no cost for those who didn't mind beta testing.
This initial beta test of Logos Pro was the same, but I haven't seen anything as to whether the Beta program going forward would stay the same (allowing access at no cost to the new developing features until they are released to stable} or if that will no longer be an option.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
My question was more geared toward once the subscription only model is activated (hopefully reconsidered) - it seems to be the equivalent of a Beta for long time users with the large libraries and Feature Sets
I don't believe the situation with subscriptions and beta testing has been answered. It's a good one though. What has been said is that ongoing feature updates will not be like beta testing. They will already have gone through beta testing and be fully functional, just that they will roll out as they are ready rather than be sold as bulk packages. It has also been hinted that the basic book package to come with the cheapest subscription will be very low cost, even "free," to the user. They would accomplish this by including books for which they do not have to pay royalties, i.e. public domain and Lexham Press.
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Frank Sauer said:
One thing I haven't really seen addressed, or possibly missed it - what does this proposed change do for Beta testers?
I will NOT subscribe, but have looked at the books that would be gained - little interest, especially starting at $9.99 a month...
So looking at those with larger libraries and the Logos 10 Feature Set (which gives the discounted price from my understanding) - Logos is now basically going to be a paid Beta test? As new features were always in the Beta testing period for free, which allowed users to try them out to see if they were worth the purchase when released to stable....
Is free access to the new features during Beta also going away?
It has been very rare for us to give free access to a feature during public beta testing. We typically only did so before a major release for private beta and alpha testing.
Under the subscription model, we're more likely to give free access to a feature during public beta testing, not less. Right now, beta testers are able to test search, Insights, and the new Applications Sermon Assistant, even if they are not subscribers (although for Sermon Assistant, you will need your own license to Sermon Builder). Instructions for getting access are in the release notes.
That policy may change over time, but it's likely to continue at least during early access.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Frank Sauer said:
One thing I haven't really seen addressed, or possibly missed it - what does this proposed change do for Beta testers?
I will NOT subscribe, but have looked at the books that would be gained - little interest, especially starting at $9.99 a month...
So looking at those with larger libraries and the Logos 10 Feature Set (which gives the discounted price from my understanding) - Logos is now basically going to be a paid Beta test? As new features were always in the Beta testing period for free, which allowed users to try them out to see if they were worth the purchase when released to stable....
Is free access to the new features during Beta also going away?
It has been very rare for us to give free access to a feature during public beta testing. We typically only did so before a major release for private beta and alpha testing.
Under the subscription model, we're more likely to give free access to a feature during public beta testing, not less. Right now, beta testers are able to test search, Insights, and the new Applications Sermon Assistant, even if they are not subscribers (although for Sermon Assistant, you will need your own license to Sermon Builder). Instructions for getting access are in the release notes.
That policy may change over time, but it's likely to continue at least during early access.
The private beta is what I was referring to, maybe I should have made that more clear. I guess the question also applies to public beta and the improvement of features as well.
The description of the subscription model just seems to sound like a morphed combo of the public and private beta that users will be paying a fee to use.
Trying to see how the new features are released on the fly without beta use. That is the area that I hadn't seen addressed.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
Trying to see how the new features are released on the fly without beta use. That is the area that I hadn't seen addressed.
I think the idea is that new features will be made available to beta test users during beta testing - which should enable them to be made available to subscribers when the next stable version of the engine is released.
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Frank Sauer said:
Trying to see how the new features are released on the fly without beta use.
They will not be released on the fly without beta use. Mark addressed this idea in his original post on this thread. If early access features are beta-tested, surely features released in the full subscription model will be as well...
"Is early access to Logos Pro a beta program?
No. Each feature is beta-tested before it becomes part of Logos Pro. The purpose of early access is not for testing—it’s so that you can enjoy these new and improved features without waiting for the major release in the fall."
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Graham Criddle said:Frank Sauer said:
Trying to see how the new features are released on the fly without beta use. That is the area that I hadn't seen addressed.
I think the idea is that new features will be made available to beta test users during beta testing - which should enable them to be made available to subscribers when the next stable version of the engine is released.
That would be what makes sense, but everything seems to have it may change tied to it. It's frustrating enough that it reads as though users that have no desire for a subscription are being left behind, hopefully not.... But then more frustrating that there never seems to be a solid answer....
As a long time user that is highly invested, I'm not a fan of wait for the release mindsets to know what is going on with the program.
Looking at sales items I would have picked up, but won't until FL actually makes a public statement as to whether they will respect the input of the large group that supports perpetual licenses or not. So they are missing out on my and others who have stated the same making purchases....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Aaron Hamilton said:Frank Sauer said:
Trying to see how the new features are released on the fly without beta use.
They will not be released on the fly without beta use. Mark addressed this idea in his original post on this thread. If early access features are beta-tested, surely features released in the full subscription model will be as well...
"Is early access to Logos Pro a beta program?
No. Each feature is beta-tested before it becomes part of Logos Pro. The purpose of early access is not for testing—it’s so that you can enjoy these new and improved features without waiting for the major release in the fall."
But is that only for this release? I am asking going forward.... Mark's response to my question even states it may change... So, what you quoted may apply to the release coming this fall, I am asking about beyond that
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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I think the uncertainty surrounds the question of whether or not beta testers will have to be subscribers eventually to test certain features. Even now, as Mark mentioned, ownership of certain features is required as a prerequisite in order to test features that build upon them. Currently, non-subscribers are able to test features that typically are reserved for subscribers. If I understand Mark correctly, this may not always be the case.
I agree with many of your reservations, and I strongly support the idea of releasing incremental feature packages for sale to everyone, including non-subscribers, containing features which do not require AI. I just don't see why they wouldn't be able to do this. That being said, aside from this and a few other caveats that will have to be worked out, a subscription model makes a whole lot of sense and is likely entirely necessary if Logos is going to continue to stay in business well into the future. The world is changing, becoming far more reliant on the cloud. And by nature, the cloud can not be owned via purchase.0 -
Rather unfortunate for me. I am not a teacher, preacher, student but regular church attender and Deacon that likes to dive deep in things and have the tools to do so. I understand I will "always" be able to access the large library I bought but it seems like I will not see any more features once this releases. I did not mind paying for upgrade occasionally but a monthly bill for someone like me in order to get new software features (don't care about the AI stuff) does not make sense.
Subscriptions are and have been all the rage. Steady monthly income, keeping customers on the hook may make business sense. Eventually, consumers will rebel...
I have a pre-order that I am now strongly considering cancelling only because I know, from experience, that eventually access to old things will become a problem.
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Rather unfortunate for me. I am not a teacher, preacher, student but regular church attender and Deacon that likes to dive deep in things and have the tools to do so. I understand I will "always" be able to access the large library I bought but it seems like I will not see any more features once this releases. I did not mind paying for upgrade occasionally but a monthly bill for someone like me in order to get new software features (don't care about the AI stuff) does not make sense.
Subscriptions are and have been all the rage. Steady monthly income, keeping customers on the hook may make business sense. Eventually, consumers will rebel...
I have a pre-pub order that I am cancelling only because I know, from experience, that eventually access to old things will become a problem.
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As with many of the posters here, I have been a Logos user since LIbronix days and have been along for the ride through Logos Now, and all of the introductions and new features created since then. As a reality check - the computer upon which my first version of LIbronix was installed has long since been recycled. I still have the 6 1/2" floppy drives it came on. But I no longer have a machine that can read them or a device to plug into a current machine to utilize what is on them. Technology is ever changing. Business models change and evolve. While I am not fully on board with this change, like so many have already stated, subscriptions are the way software is now being developed and rolled out.
I think I need to wait and see what the fall brings. Some things I would like to see: I would like to see AI separated out as a tier to purchase. Given the info rolled out so far, I am not sure that is possible. I do not like the idea of temporary books. Let me purchase what I need and want, when I need and want them. And if temporary books are a thing, make it easy to purchase them or increase the price a bit and allow us to choose what books we want. Please, be clear about tiers and pricing. In a professional setting, annual subs are much easier to deal with. And clear definitions are vital.
Specific question regarding "credits": I see a post where credits are defined as "thousands per month" as a general and vague descriptor. This is new. I understand that. But, depending on how many there are and how long it takes to use them, can unused "credits" flow to the next billing period? Even a percentage of them?
I do have to say that I was a subscriber to Logos Now. I chose not to continue it. I am generally not fond of software subscriptions, but I am aware that the market is moving that way. Logos has to get on the boat or be left behind. I do not want that. I want the company to succeed, be able to hire and pay well, good, talented people and be able to prosper. Part of what I see in these forums is reaction to yet more change. After and during a period of intense and in many cases unwanted change. Logos has to be feeling some of that too.
I suggest we all take a breath. Lets see what happens next.
Thanks for reaching this far.
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One thing that I would like to provide some constructive feedback on: as of right now (presumably until fall), there is no option for a new user to subscribe to anything. Faithlife Connect is not an option, and unless they purchase the full feature set, early access is not an option.
I would implore you to reconsider offering something for the new user to subscribe to during the interim. ~6 months is a long time for someone to hold off trialing a software, and this may cause some prospective customers to dive into an alternative software. From what I've seen, once someone invests any money into one software, acquisition of this particular customer proves to be a lot harder than acquiring a customer who has yet to invest any money into a particular product.
Maybe for the time being you can offer Connect Essentials as "Logos Connect" and price it to the tier that you are considering the new subscription pricing. I would assume that the reason you're not already doing this is because $9.99 isn't going to be the subscription pricing for new users, so offering Essentials at $14.99 for the time being may get them used to paying the $15/month and make the transition to the new subscription painless and effortless. From a marketing standpoint, most new users wouldn't mind sacrificing a few perks they've only enjoyed for ~6 months for the new AI perks that will be available at launch.
Please consider this, or any alternative for the new users that may be searching for Bible Study software from now until Fall.0 -
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Frank Hodges said:
Mark, One question I would have is which perks us connect users will be losing. Will we lose the 2% cash back, course access, Faithlife TV, and three free classics each month? If this is the case, I would implore Logos to please implement a plan where we can still access courses monthly. This, rather than the feature sets and added books, are a main reason for subscribing for many I would presume. Please take this into consideration.
Thanks for the feedback. We haven't landed on what perks we'll include with the subscriptions in the fall. It's useful to hear what perks have the most value to you.
My favourites are 2% cashback, Mobile Ed, and the (now defunct) one free Lexham Press book.
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Having spent thousands of dollars on logos over the years, and not being interested in or able to afford a subscription model, can you please provide concrete assurance that:
1. Logos will continue to be available on a purchase rather than subscription model and that development will continue (even if this means new features will be delivered on a slower basis going forward)?
2. That Logos will continue to be updated to ensure it continues to work with newer versions of the Windows / Mac operating systems?
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Frank Hodges said:
Maybe for the time being you can offer Connect Essentials as "Logos Connect" and price it to the tier that you are considering the new subscription pricing. I would assume that the reason you're not already doing this is because $9.99 isn't going to be the subscription pricing for new users, so offering Essentials at $14.99 for the time being may get them used to paying the $15/month and make the transition to the new subscription painless and effortless. From a marketing standpoint, most new users wouldn't mind sacrificing a few perks they've only enjoyed for ~6 months for the new AI perks that will be available at launch.
At present, the path for new users would be https://www.logos.com/free-edition and/or taking advantage of the discount on base packages, not creating a temporary "Connect" tier when future pricing is not finalised. I think Marketing would not mind at all, but new users may have a different take on such a speculative scheme.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Exactly my situation and questions, as I'm sure it is with thousands of other faithful users.Brian said:Having spent thousands of dollars on logos over the years, and not being interested in or able to afford a subscription model, can you please provide concrete assurance that:
1. Logos will continue to be available on a purchase rather than subscription model and that development will continue (even if this means new features will be delivered on a slower basis going forward)?
2. That Logos will continue to be updated to ensure it continues to work with newer versions of the Windows / Mac operating systems?
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Brian said:
can you please provide concrete assurance
Sorry Brian, but concrete is not available[:D]
Brian said:1. Logos will continue to be available on a purchase rather than subscription model and that development will continue (even if this means new features will be delivered on a slower basis going forward)?
Purchase or perpetual license is under consideration. But it will not be the two year upgrade with which you are familiar, so don't expect a Logos 11 delivery.
The proposed subscription is the "lifeline" for the delivery of new features. Subscribers will be able to access them as they are developed.
Brian said:2. That Logos will continue to be updated to ensure it continues to work with newer versions of the Windows / Mac operating systems?
Yes for subscribers and current users. But it is not clear what will happen for new users who come off subscription not owning any features but having invested in books. This is more complicated than I can present here, but
- it seems that purchase options should be available for features
- Free support and updates have been the tradition provided users keep up to date with their operating systems.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I didn't necessarily mean for them to create a new tier for Connect during the interim, rather I meant for them to continue with at least one Connect tier (I would assume Essentials would make the most sense) until the rollout in Fall as to not leave any prospects on the table. Granted, there's not another Bible study software that offers a subscription which is comparable to Logos, so it is a niche market to begin with. But if it were me, I would want to acquire all prospects I can during the interim.Dave Hooton said:At present, the path for new users would be https://www.logos.com/free-edition and/or taking advantage of the discount on base packages, not creating a temporary "Connect" tier when future pricing is not finalised. I think Marketing would not mind at all, but new users may have a different take on such a speculative scheme.
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Frank Hodges said:
I didn't necessarily mean for them to create a new tier for Connect during the interim, rather I meant for them to continue with at least one Connect tier (I would assume Essentials would make the most sense) until the rollout in Fall as to not leave any prospects on the table. Granted, there's not another Bible study software that offers a subscription which is comparable to Logos, so it is a niche market to begin with. But if it were me, I would want to acquire all prospects I can during the interim.Dave Hooton said:At present, the path for new users would be https://www.logos.com/free-edition and/or taking advantage of the discount on base packages, not creating a temporary "Connect" tier when future pricing is not finalised. I think Marketing would not mind at all, but new users may have a different take on such a speculative scheme.
My Logos Now subscription is up for renewal in May but it looks like the new subscription model will only be available later in the Fall. It is unclear to me what to do in May, if I should renew my Logos Now subscription or switch to Logos Pro.
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Armin said:
My Logos Now subscription is up for renewal in May but it looks like the new subscription model will only be available later in the Fall. It is unclear to me what to do in May, if I should renew my Logos Now subscription or switch to Logos Pro.
Mark Barnes (Logos) has advised that you should stay with your present subscription so as not to miss out on your perks. The switch to LPro could be expensive if you do not have the L10 Full Feature set.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
Sorry Brian, but concrete is not available
Ok, I can live without the concrete.
The minimum for me, having spent so much money on Logos over many years is:
1. I don't need new features, but must retain ongoing access to existing features (in addition, I should really be able to buy new features)
2. I should be able to buy new books and for them to be fully compatible / integrated into my existing library and feature set.
3. It should be updated / upgradeable (at reasonable cost) to ensure full compatibility with newer versions of operating systems (or to add features).
4. The software should be updated for bug-fixes.
My fear is that in 3 ~ 5 years, loyal users who've spent thousands on Verbum / Logos, will be told their version of the product is now unsupported and will not be updated for OS changes or bug fixes, nor will they be able to buy additional books because "the underlying database structure / book format has changed".
I am a prison chaplain, earning a fraction of what I used to, and approaching retirement age. I am genuinely worried that my significant investment in Logos will turn out to be the equivalent of an electronic door-stop.
In the past I have splashed out to buy full versions of Photoshop, Music Notation Software etc - just to dabble with them and I had the spare cash at the time. I could never justify, and never did pay for subscriptions to them when their pricing models changed. I just stopped using them. There must be a body of users like me out there who value an ownership model. Verbum / Logos is different: I use it extensively, but again, a one off purchase when I had the cash, or occasional upgrade without ongoing subscription, I can handle. A subscription I can't.
I'm hoping Logos has an ethos consistent with its faith-based product and in good conscience will not let our investment go to waste.
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Greetings Brian
Brian said:1. I don't need new features, but must retain ongoing access to existing features
I haven't read anything that leads me to believe that Logos is changing its promise that you will always have access to everything you have paid for.
Brian said:2. I should be able to buy new books and for them to be fully compatible / integrated into my existing library and feature set.
I cannot envisage a scenario that would involve Logos removing the option to buy resources. I would think that it will take many years before the technology develops to a state that new resources become incompatible with existing features - when that happens, based on your experience over the years of dealing with Logos how do you think the company will react to a much smaller very elderly group who need updates?
Brian said:3. It should be updated / upgradeable (at reasonable cost) to ensure full compatibility with newer versions of operating systems (or to add features).
Brian said:4. The software should be updated for bug-fixes.
As the programme has been upgraded for free for the whole life of the company what makes you think this is going to change?
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Mike Binks: "As the programme has been upgraded for free for the whole life of the company what makes you think this is going to change?"
Sorry, I can't resist... one thing that might prompt such a thought is that Logos is no longer majority owned by people with a heart for ministry and the service of God's Kingdom. The majority shareholder is a VENTURE CAPITAL company which, I presume, has a somewhat different set of priorities, not least being to maximize the bottom line. This alone leads one to fear that thing might indeed change, and perhaps already are.
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Mike Binks said:
Greetings Brian
Brian said:1. I don't need new features, but must retain ongoing access to existing features
I haven't read anything that leads me to believe that Logos is changing its promise that you will always have access to everything you have paid for.
History tells us that Logos does not honor their promise that you will have access to the Feature you own forever.... Sermon File among others and this response from Mark
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Frank Sauer said:If we already paid for a feature and it gets improvements - will the updated feature only be available to those who subscribe? If so, doesn't that punish early adopters as you mentioned???
If we update an L8 feature (for example), those improvements are likely to be available only to people who subscribe (or who purchase an upgrade, if we offer that), especially if those improvements significantly enhance the feature. There will be exceptions to that, but that will be the general rule. I don't think that harms early adopters who will have had at least four years of great value out of the feature, and may well have many more.
I think it would punish early adopters if we sold a new feature, and then six or twelve weeks later offered a better version.
So you will own and have access to the feature "forever" - OR until they upgrade it or change the name and possibly resell it to you like Sermon File and the Sermon importer which seems to be its renamed version!
They advertise that you own the Feature forever but then do not honor that advertising - very unethical! "Four years of great value" is not the promise they make nor that they advertise....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Mike Binks said:
Greetings Brian
Brian said:1. I don't need new features, but must retain ongoing access to existing features
I haven't read anything that leads me to believe that Logos is changing its promise that you will always have access to everything you have paid for.
Brian said:2. I should be able to buy new books and for them to be fully compatible / integrated into my existing library and feature set.
I cannot envisage a scenario that would involve Logos removing the option to buy resources. I would think that it will take many years before the technology develops to a state that new resources become incompatible with existing features - when that happens, based on your experience over the years of dealing with Logos how do you think the company will react to a much smaller very elderly group who need updates?
Brian said:3. It should be updated / upgradeable (at reasonable cost) to ensure full compatibility with newer versions of operating systems (or to add features).
Brian said:4. The software should be updated for bug-fixes.
As the programme has been upgraded for free for the whole life of the company what makes you think this is going to change?
Mike Binks said:quote user="Brian"]1. I don't need new features, but must retain ongoing access to existing features
I haven't read anything that leads me to believe that Logos is changing its promise that you will always have access to everything you have paid for.
Brian said:The uneasiness comes from experience with other software companies and their products. Over the years I bought several MS Office licenses. None of them are any good now. Now you have to subscribe to it. Once your subscription expires, you lose the use of the software, regardless of how many past licenses or upgrades you bought. And as Peter_G noted, there is also reason to suspect that the change in ownership of the company may result in major policy changes that are geared to maximize revenue over other things.
As to the question "... what makes you think this is going to change?", the company's statement that from now on, new versions of Logos will be offered only on a subscription basis is what makes people think that. Mark Barnes' original post said "Later this year, we’ll launch the next version of Logos as a subscription. The subscription will have several tiers and eventually replace Preaching Suite, Faithlife Connect, and other Logos feature sets. ... Subscriptions aren’t required to maintain access to your existing content. They’re for those who want access to new and improved features. With Logos, your content investment is always safe, and you’ll always be able to access it for free."
Here's the thing: I own the full feature upgrade for Logos, and if I understand the original announcement correctly, I may well lose some of those features in the future unless I subscribe. And yes, I understand that "you'll always be able to access it for free" -- but only with reduced or minimum functionality?
I've already voiced my objection to Logos heading into AI. I just don't think it has a place in Biblical Studies (or the Liberal Arts, for that matter). I feel I am being put into a position that I will be forced to subscribe to Logos (with the AI feature) if I just want to continue to use the software at the level I now have (since some feature sets will be lost unless I subscribe).
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Question. When I do an AI "Smart Search" many of the results from resources show a closed padlock icon indicating that I do not have access to those resources. Is there a way that I can filter out any resources that I do not have access to? Or, prioritize resources that I do have access to? It is not helpful when I have to scroll past so many resources that I have no access to.
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David McClister said:
Here's the thing: I own the full feature upgrade for Logos, and if I understand the original announcement correctly, I may well lose some of those features in the future unless I subscribe. And yes, I understand that "you'll always be able to access it for free" -- but only with reduced or minimum functionality?
I've already voiced my objection to Logos heading into AI. I just don't think it has a place in Biblical Studies (or the Liberal Arts, for that matter). I feel I am being put into a position that I will be forced to subscribe to Logos (with the AI feature) if I just want to continue to use the software at the level I now have (since some feature sets will be lost unless I subscribe).
Agree, but people keep saying 'new' features will be subscription. More correct, 'new to you' features. That's why, if one wants to not subscribe, buying 'now' is the answer .. presuming one wants a current feature. And L10 is on sale 25% off in April.
Regarding 'AI' I guess I have to wonder. It seems, the simpler the book presentation, the easier the AI 'accuracy'. I'm reading a book now, that I'd hate to even summarize a sentence, much less a chapter or whole book. And I don't need simple summaries, since I buy authors research.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Hi Michael - and welcome to the forums
Michael Mura said:Is there a way that I can filter out any resources that I do not have access to?
A Smart All Search will search all books in the Logos catalog
But a Smart Books Search will just search books that you own
And in a Books Search you can switch between Precise / Smart searching using the dropdown
Hope this helps, Graham
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I see some great potential in this offering. I do have some questions I hoped you might be able to clarify:
- I have the annual Faithlife Connect subscription, which is valid until 2025. Is the Logos Pro early access considered a supplemental subscription or a replacement one?
- With the different set of books offered, will I lose access to the books I have been "renting" these past years?
- How will the subscription price be affected by any books or resources I have purchased outright while using Faithlife Connect?
- If I enroll in the early access trial, will I lose access to features included in the Faithlife Connect subscription for which I have already paid?
- Do you have a complete list of the features I would lose by using Logos Pro to help me determine whether it makes financial sense to use Logos Pro before my current subscription ends?
Thank you.
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Hi Mike - and welcome to the forums.
In the post that started this thread Mark states:
Where does this leave subscriptions like Faithlife Connect and Preaching Suite?
The subscription that will launch later in the year will replace Faithlife Connect and Preaching Suite. The tier we're launching today, Logos Pro, includes exclusive new features, but there are a few tools and datasets in Connect and Preaching Suite that aren’t in Logos Pro but will be in another tier of the subscription. Most of the books in Logos Pro are different from those included in the existing subscriptions.
If you subscribe to those products, we’ll contact you later in the year to explain how you can painlessly switch to the new subscription. Until then, we recommend keeping your existing subscription to ensure you don’t lose any perks, features, or books. In the meantime, you could add Logos Pro to your existing subscription if you’re eligible.
Mike Heavin said:I have the annual Faithlife Connect subscription, which is valid until 2025. Is the Logos Pro early access considered a supplemental subscription or a replacement one?
As per Mark's statement, it should be seen as supplemental at the moment.
Mike Heavin said:With the different set of books offered, will I lose access to the books I have been "renting" these past years?
You won't lose anything if you connect with your Connect subscription. If you cancel it then you would lose access to the books it made available
Mike Heavin said:How will the subscription price be affected by any books or resources I have purchased outright while using Faithlife Connect?
The subscription price for Early Access Logos Pro does not vary based on books / features we have bought / subscribed to earlier.
Mike Heavin said:If I enroll in the early access trial, will I lose access to features included in the Faithlife Connect subscription for which I have already paid?
If you have bought features you won't lose them. If you have access to features through your Connect subscription and cancel that, you would lose access to those features
Mike Heavin said:Do you have a complete list of the features I would lose by using Logos Pro to help me determine whether it makes financial sense to use Logos Pro before my current subscription ends?
I haven't seen such a list - the general advise seems to be to wait until there is more clarity on the impact on current subscriptions later in the year. If you do want to check out Logos Pro, I would advise doing it as an add-on subscription if you feel it added value to you.
Hope this helps, Graham
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For those of us that will not be subscribing - I was just informed by Customer Service that as of now we will be waiting until Fall to find out if we will be offered the option to own Logos versions going forward.....
So, they lost my purchases I was looking at from March Madness, the April Sale had a few and now, I will not bother looking at anything resource wise going forward.
For a company so concerned about revenue, they seem to care less about the number of us that have made it clear that we will not be purchasing anything, have cancelled pre pubs, etc - until we have the guarantee that we will continue to have the traditional option of purchase going forward.....
Time to check out the conversion sale on the other website that has been generated specifically in response to the number of users upset with the subscription option.... It was good while it lasted - but the days of care for long term customers is gone IMHO.... I remember getting contacted by Bob, Dan or Phil if something even smelled of frustration in a forum post - now..... Well - no more presentations encouraging potential customers of the benefit of Logos over other options - I'll never promote a subscription only option.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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