Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos

For those of us that will not be subscribing - I was just informed by Customer Service that as of now we will be waiting until Fall to find out if we will be offered the option to own Logos versions going forward.....

That sounds ominous, though if we take Mark at his word (for the foreseeable future ... this year), I fully expect forced subscriptions for features not presently owned.

I'd thought to go ahead with purchasing the features I don't have. But then, I don't really need them.  And I also canceled my planned Ortho-Platinum purchase too .. basically button up Logos for the duration.

I don't agree, a company sits on a planned major customer dislocation for 6 months. The calculation preceded the announced threat. More likely, arguments inside FL.

Also, why in the world would I drop $400 today to get a full-feature set (which sounds like it will be completely obsolete once the subscription only model kicks in) so that I can get a "discount" price on the future subscription rate?

What exactly, pray tell, have you read that would possibly make you believe that?

The subscription will simply add on to features that you currently "own". And, I seriously doubt that if you own a full feature set, that it will become obsolete over night just because there is now a subscription model. They will not just shut off or lock behind a subscription wall the current set of features that they have previously sold.

How long do you think it would take for Faithlife's programmers to replace all of the current features with brand new ones that would then be covered by a subscription only system?

Spend the $400.00 today, not to lock in a discount on a future subscription rate, but rather to actually own license to those features so that they will not disappear should you decide to subscribe to "New" features. If you do then cancel your subscription you would only loose the newest "rented' features.

 

 

So, if you currently own the Full L10 Feature set, you will have the choice to remain at tier 3 or go to a lower level. If you want all the current features, you may have to choose tier 4.

Wow.  I hope this was not written well.  The way I understand your sentence is that if I own Full L10 Feature set and I chose no subscription (that is, I dont want any of the 4 tiers that might be offered), I will lose what I have already paid for and own.  I do not think you meant that.  At least I hope you did not mean that.  There would be an uproar (I am very sure) if features once paid for and owned were taken away.

I hope what you meant is that if you wanted new features, that would start at tier 4 and if you did not want what was offered, you would simply not want a subscription.

So you will own and have access to the feature "forever" - OR until they upgrade it or change the name and possibly resell it to you like Sermon File and  the Sermon importer which seems to be its renamed version!

They advertise that you own the Feature forever but then do not honor that advertising - very unethical! "Four years of great value" is not the promise they make nor that they advertise....

If you think they are doing this, then there is this judicial feature of a lawsuit. False advertisement is a legitimate thing to sue over. I'm not sure Faithlife would want that. 

What I understand Mark saying is that if you own the L8 feature (for example), you will always have that feature. The area of change comes when you upgrade your feature sets (for example: from L8 to L10 full feature set). Another feature set usually has other features included. Therefore, if they change the name of something from L8 to a new name in L10...that is nothing because I already own it. I am paying for the new features. But likely they are updating that old feature to be more compatible and hopefully more robust with other areas of Logos as new versions come in. They make improvements to the feature from L8 AND add new features. To me, that is a win-win if I choose to purchase the new feature set. I have not technically lost that feature, I am getting an upgraded form of it, whether I benefit from that upgrade or not. 

However, if you never buy new features, then by definition that feature is yours even as you upgrade to the newest free Logos Engine Software or if you buy a new Logos package of books. Am I missing something? The feature is still yours. It appears you are saying that because the feature has been "upgraded," you no longer have the feature that you paid for when you buy a new feature set (Ex: paying for L10 when you previously had L8). But you do, it just has been improved.

I think the issue comes down to this "official" early release statement is the direction of how new features are going to be rolled out - on a subscription model instead of an owner model. FL is not saying anything about what has already been purchased, but saying about the direction they are going in. The issue arises are:

1) How long are they going to keep L10 features compatible? If I end up getting the hypothetical L20 free software in 10 years, will my L10 features still be compatible with it? Or will technology be different and I will have to find ways to keep L10 (or the last compatible updated engine) working on old equipment? I want to ensure that what I paid for will still be updated in the sense of usability on new equipment as technology continues. The important keyword/phrase here is "usability on new equipment as technology continues." I understand I can keep the old stuff alive, but do I want to go through the hassle of that? I want to retain ongoing access to existing features. Money talks and if I am not subscribing (paying money) how long will they keep what I paid for compatible with new stuff since they would be receiving no more money from me if I am not subscribing? This is a legitimate question. 

2) What if I don't have money to pay monthly? What if I come to a point in my life where I don't have the finances to pay for the subscription models and I have invested in 100's of dollars in monthly fees, with the possible result of getting nothing in return in the long run, which is why I like ownership. Subscription seems to be more of a benefit for the company than the customer, which is bad in my opinion. It changes the mindset of how the business is done. The Subscription model does not take into account those who do not have the financial means even though they claim it will help new users with the upfront cost. All it does is allow people to pay to use instead of pay own. FL should continue to have both in my opinion and not disregard people who helped Faithlife get where they are now. 

3) This leads to the future use of Logos. If Logos goes the subscription-only route, even though I have a purchased license to use L10, my motivation for investing in Logos for the future will change. I would start looking for another software that allows me to invest my money in something that has a permanent return. I don't invest my money in an investment account to get nothing out of it in the long run, I want to see something that I can put in my pocket - I want that interest. Subscription models leave me with empty pockets if I choose to stop paying; therefore, no investment. This would be a sad direction for the company to go in. It will not come down to, whether I want to support something just for the use of it. I like FL, I love using Logos, but part of the blessing of investing is being able to keep the product that I invested in.

So, at the moment I don't see FL not holding onto its promises, but I do see that what I have already invested in is in danger. The reason because the future is unclear as to the path the FL is going. The subscription route tells me that my investing is no longer investing in both the company that I love to use AND the product I put money in, instead it is just investing in the company without a product in return. The problem is that the company can fail - what am I left with in return? A subscription model leaves me with L10 that I can work to keep alive. It will leave others with something else based on what they have purchased. It will leave new people who are only able to do subscriptions with nothing but the basic engine since that was free.

An example of this is Adobe Photoshop. You used to be able to pay for each version as it came out, but they have since gone subscription to get the new features. It can do a lot of stuff, but to pay 20 to 50 dollars a month is ridiculous for someone like me. I don't have the time to use the program enough to get the money's worth out of it. And then to stop paying and keep nothing in return seems a waste. I would rather pay the 600+ dollars for the program and use it whenever I want to at my own pace than pay a subscription that keeps on rising in cost. These new features are nice and can make creating art easier and more advanced. However, I do not own anything after the last paid version, I also cannot afford the ongoing cost of the subscription. Also, that last paid version requires a different type of computer than what I currently have. Do I want to keep it alive? Nah. I have new programs that I can own to do my art without any ongoing payments, which does exactly what I want it to do (and cheaper too)

The same result could happen if Logos goes down this route. The hardest part is the investment in books that I have. 

we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you

Please continue the option to purchase the software. In short, subscriptions are a nonstarter for many.

Feel free to quit reading at this point, I'm not sure that what follows offers anything more than the thesis above; if nothing else, it is an offer at a transparent, knee-jerk reaction that, I suspect, isn't unique or idiosyncratic. I have seen my commitment to Logos over the past 20+ years as an investment, and despite reading and understanding the reasons given, I would see a subscription-only model as a clear signal of putting profits over the relationship that Logos has built with its user base. The fact of the matter is that there are alternative options (even a spectrum of models) to simply going full subscription model. A decision to not implement one of these alternatives will be a conscious decision and will communicate to users accordingly. 

Logos subscriptions aren’t new. More than ten thousand people have been subscribing to Logos for nearly a decade.

I would submit that this 10,000+ may indicate more than what it seems to at first blush. In 2014, Logos indicated that they were approaching 2 million users. Maybe this was an estimate, and even granting that it may not be entirely accurate, it's at least somewhat of an indicator of a user base. True, subscriptions are not new, and this figure of 10,000+ continual subscribers–a mere fraction of the user base–does seem to presently offer signals of users' interest in subscription models.
As to these five distinct advantages:
New users can have much lower upfront costs and try Logos with much less commitment.While the subscription model is not the only and, arguably, not even the best way to achieve this goal, it seems to be a thin reason, indeed, for subjecting the entire user base to a subscription. It might be reasonably argued that a subscription prioritizes new users over longevity, invariably deprioritizing the once-new user after they are in the door. Again, this intentional decision will communicate priorities and motivations, regardless of how it is pitched and marketed. 
It allows us to continuously release new features and improvements as soon as they are built, rather than holding them back for a major release every two years.This could also be seen as keeping users in a state of constant, glorified alpha testing. Some may want this right away, and some may prefer to wait another year or so until the product is more polished. A purchase path would allow each segment of the user base to operate within the program in the way they prefer. All of these points, but especially this one and number five, make it sound like Agenda's so-called "cash cow" model would possibly make more sense of things on the feature side of the program.
It allows us to include features like AI, which we can’t offer permanent licenses to because of the significant ongoing costs.Why not allow the user to assume the cost for each's own AI usage–though, not via a subscription–as is the current common practice? In the vein of allowing users to use their own API if they find these features valuable. Why group the entire user base together into a subscription model for one of the features that will have varying degrees of usage from user to user?
It’s a sustainable way of ensuring we can keep delivering improvements for decades to come.This model within the current subscription economy, with its subscription fatigue, etc, has not yet borne itself out over decades. Sure, this is a business that needs to generate profit and operate sustainably. Even granting this fact, a move to a complete subscription model will alienate a portion of their users & this act alone communicates different priorities than the Logos that I've known, one that wants to equip and empower all believers.
Releasing early and often significantly shortens the feedback loop, enabling us to continually tweak our improvements to ensure they’re really solving the most important things for all our customers.See concerns with #2.
The five "distinct advantages" that have been identified as implications of the subscription model seem to not always be distinct advantages–at least not from every vantage point. They certainly don't seem justify a wholesale jump to a subscription only model. 

See above about "getting nothing in return", which also is the main point of your comments beyond this one..  However, I disagree with the premise that subscription is a stretch on one's finances. What about paying $600 upfront to gain an entry to Logos when you could have all for, say, $20 a month.

The difference appears after the 30 months, if I cease to subscribe (because of death, or straitened circumstances, for example)

On Scenario A ($600 upfront), I still have (or my estate has) a licence for the features, etc. that I acquired with my payment.

On Scenario B ($20 per month subscription), I have (or my estate has)... zilch. OK, the basic L10 engine.

Am I understanding this right, Dave?

Features will always be compatible with the software, though we may not be as compatible with the upgraded version after 10 years. Search is still Search and the Timeline is still a timeline whilst Factbook has morphed (see my previous response)!

This and your previous response are where the greatest question arises; that leads to concerns about forced subscription to maintain access to Features that we are supposed to own forever.... It is fact that Logos has deprecated owned features in the past, has upgraded many and changed the name of some. The problem now is not just the questionable marketing that we actually own the Features forever, but now that we will be forced into a subscription for continued use.... In spite of the public denial that we will be forced into a subscription, history and statements like this from Mark lead myself and others to not believe it...

If we already paid for a feature and it gets improvements - will the updated feature only be available to those who subscribe? If so, doesn't that punish early adopters as you mentioned???

If we update an L8 feature (for example), those improvements are likely to be available only to people who subscribe (or who purchase an upgrade, if we offer that), especially if those improvements significantly enhance the feature. There will be exceptions to that, but that will be the general rule. I don't think that harms early adopters who will have had at least four years of great value out of the feature, and may well have many more.

I think it would punish early adopters if we sold a new feature, and then six or twelve weeks later offered a better version.

First, this contradicts the marketing ploy that you will always have access to your purchased Features - which is not true as I have stated many times in relation to missing features or having to pay again for features being updated or rereleased under a new name. (Faithlife should honestly remove the statement that you have the Features forever)

Second and most pertinent to the frustration is the ignorance of the Subscription marketing - per Mark's statement here not only do we not get our features forever (unless we forego the continued engine updates and stay with the last working version of our Feature(s) we purchased that get upgraded and put behind a paywall), but now we - until Faithlife makes an announcement that they will honor the feedback that they asked for and points to ownership being the preferred model by many - will be forced into a subscription to have continued access to our Features....

Before anyone points to Mark's statement that we will never be forced into a subscription.... Think about this: If he has clearly stated that if a Feature is significantly improved we will have to subscribe or if offered, purchase the feature again. Does anyone think that Faithlife is going to write the code for the engine to continue with multiple versions of a Feature(s) to honor their marketing? Based on history - No, would it make sense and improve sustainability? No - So for an example... There is a significant improvement to the Timeline, it is doubtful that the programmers will code a legacy Timeline for those that own it side by side with the new version for those that own the Feature for the long term.... Maybe for a short period of transition, but if that was done for every Feature sold - the size of the prgram and complexity of code would get expansive. Not to mention the cost to maintain would also become inefficient.... So eventually, without the ownership option - it would come down to subscribe, lose access to the feature(s) or keep a backup of the last working version of Logos to maintain your access.... (Which at some point will likely cease to work like Libronix)

So, while I would like to believe the marketing - all the statements do not appear to add up to what is being stated.... Add to that the fact that the marketing is supposed to be linked to financial sustainability, but Faithlife is losing a lot of revenue in missed sales of resources as recorded by the number of users that have publicly noted they have cancelled orders and will not purchase until we have assurance that an ownership model will still be available.... If sustainability were so important, they would do everything they could to ensure not missing on sales and turning long time customers away in the hope of attracting new subscribers.... They would also not be telling customers to wait until the Fall for a decision about the ownership model being offered - common business sense would be to offer both options - the Features are coded into the engine and activated by license, so refusing revenue because you want subscribers doesn't show a desire to earn as much revenue as is possible. I know many say AI is a reason they need subscriptions, well AI isn't a Feature that everyone desires, as evident by forum response - so if someone wants AI, then they could subscribe.... Also, if all new features are built upon and or tied to AI, that is very shortsighted IMHO, as not everyone wants that type of function, trusts that type of function or would rather get it free elsewhere.

I think the updated B/W switch was an intensional shot across the bow.  What do you call a 'feature': major marketable function, vs a minor convenience?

I call that one a stupid and avoidable own goal. But you are also right: it's not a good sign.

What about paying $600 upfront to gain an entry to Logos when you could have all for, say, $20 a month.

I would absolutely prefer to save, buy a package that is a good fit for me (which doesn’t have to be a $600 package, and could be a good deal cheaper), and then have that package in perpetuity as opposed to being locked in to spending more than I ever would up front to maintain that access. I am 100% preferential to this approach and am okay with repeating it when Logos creates new features that will be helpful to me and these features give me reason to start saving again. The upfront ease of getting in just seems short-sighted and feels like a sales tactic IMO.

On Scenario A ($600 upfront), I still have (or my estate has) a licence for the features, etc. that I acquired with my payment.

On Scenario B ($20 per month subscription), I have (or my estate has)... zilch. OK, the basic L10 engine.

As a new user, if you cancel after subscribing for 30 months (cost $600) you would not own any of the features you have used, but hopefully you would retain (but not own) a Basic "free" version of Logos.  If you had paid $600 (or more) for L10 and earlier features, you would retain those whether or not you subscribed. 

Thanks Dave, for confirming what would be the position of new users who sign up as Logos subcribers.

Turning now to existing users, some of whom have invested tens of thousands of dollars in Logos, you write: "If you had paid $600 (or more) for L10 and earlier features, you would retain those whether or not you subscribed."

So, if an existing user subscribes for 30 months at $20 per month, and then unsubscribed, s/he would lose access to all resources, etc. that s/he acquired during the 30 months, and revert to the version, features and resources that s/he owned before subscribing? I think that's what you're saying?

The question of whether Logos Bible Software will allow users to opt for a permanent licence purchases remains moot. I haven't seen where this has been confirmed or denied, but may have missed it. Is anyone able to enlighten me as to the Board's policy going forward on this issue? (My suspicion is that this will NOT be offered by the Board, since it would have a lower profit margin than the subscription model, but we need Logos to come out and make it absolutely clear, one way of another.)

It is interesting to trace the chronology over the past few years.

In late 2021, Mr Bob Pritchett, on of the Founders, stepped down as CEO and Vik Rajagopal was appointed. In his post of Oct.25 last year, Vik stated "one of the changes I’ve made in my two years as CEO has been to reemphasize and reinvest in our core products – namely Logos Bible Software." He also foreshadowed the "next version of Logos" in the first half of 2024.

Vik also mentioned Bob Pritchett's ongoing role: "when I stepped in as CEO two years ago, Bob transitioned to a full-time position on our Board of Directors.  He continues to serve as a Board member, and I (virtually) saw him just last week at our most recent Board meeting.  He remains involved in the business and is an ongoing advocate for our customers and the overall user experience with Logos" (emphasis added).

Some time around this time, though, it seems that Bob (and perhaps other shareholder/s) sold a controlling majority of their shares to a venture capital company, Cove Hill Partners.

Not long after, on Feb.26 this year - 6 weeks ago - Vik posted, "But I’m actually writing to share a personal update with you all - that I am stepping down as CEO of Logos, effective today.  I joined Logos nearly 3.5 years ago as CFO and succeeded Bob as CEO in late 2021." He also announced that the Logos Board had appointed a new CEO, Mr Bill McCarthy.

Then Mark Barnes announced on March 6 - 5 weeks ago - that Logos was moving to a subscription model for its users, to be introduced "later this year."

Since then, that forum thread has reached 47 pages in which users have expressed their uncertainty, approval, disapproval, etc. Phil Gons, also a Board member, and Mark Barnes interacted in the earlier days of the thread, but haven't been heard from much since then.

It seems to me that the above chain of events reveal a common thread: Logos wants to move to a model which returns a higher profit to the company, and to its majority shareholder. Which is exactly what we might expect when the majority shareholder is a venture capital business, rather than one committed to the gospel ministry and the growth of God's kingdom under the Lord Jesus.

For myself, as a retired minister of 40 years service, these movements are of less importance to me personally, (although I still use Logos nearly every day!) But I do think that the company should retain the option for its users not to subscribe, but to be able to purchase (or not) additional resources, versions and features that they deem suitable to their needs. Pastors do not need to be locked in to a $20USD per month subscription which does not even secure permanent access to their licensed material. On the proposed model, even after years of subscription, if they unsubscribed they would lose almost everything that they had paid for. They would have no equity left in their "investment." Rivers of gold for shareholders but rivers of misery for working pastors?

Well, if there is a way, we, the users, could buy it back. We can raise funds, buy it back, then appoint a gospel centered team. We can set up a non-for profit to continue to help fundraise and help the for profit side. 

I have been a logos user since Logos 4. It's been a good run. Who knows what the future of Logos will be. It is certainly sad to read what's been happening, especially the last post. 

At the end of the day, my brothers and sisters, we don't need software. We need the Holy Spirit. I primarily got Logos for the parallels. But to be honest, there are "free" parallels out there already. Many of the books Logos "publishes" are available in "Project Gutenberg" or in many other free libraries. 

The happy compromise would be just like what everyone is saying: have the subscription model and have the purchase model. Those that have invested thousands of dollars (many are here) should be viewed as the core users. Trust me, dear VC and BD, these users are the most loyal userbase you'll find anywhere in the entire world. I have so much respect for them. But loyalty can only go so far. So I hope you find a compromise. 

God bless everyone. God is good!

Well, if there is a way, we, the users, could buy it back. We can raise funds, buy it back, then appoint a gospel centered team. We can set up a non-for profit to continue to help fundraise and help the for profit side. 

I have been a logos user since Logos 4. It's been a good run. Who knows what the future of Logos will be. It is certainly sad to read what's been happening, especially the last post. 

At the end of the day, my brothers and sisters, we don't need software. We need the Holy Spirit. I primarily got Logos for the parallels. But to be honest, there are "free" parallels out there already. Many of the books Logos "publishes" are available in "Project Gutenberg" or in many other free libraries. 

The happy compromise would be just like what everyone is saying: have the subscription model and have the purchase model. Those that have invested thousands of dollars (many are here) should be viewed as the core users. Trust me, dear VC and BD, these users are the most loyal userbase you'll find anywhere in the entire world. I have so much respect for them. But loyalty can only go so far. So I hope you find a compromise. 

God bless everyone. God is good!