Logos "we’re launching our next version of Logos as a subscription"
It's disappinting that Logos has decided to launch the next Version as a subscription.
"Welcome! If you’ve landed on this page, we’re guessing you’ve heard the news. This fall, we’re launching our next version of Logos as a subscription. We know there are a lot of questions around why we’re shifting to a subscription model, and we wanted to provide more information on why we’re making the change. Hopefully after reading, you’ll be as excited as we are about what’s to come.
Blessings in Christ.
Comments
- Logos is making a mistake moving to a (primarily?) subscription model that's going to hurt them long term. People today have subscription fatigue and are much less likely to sign up if it's a subscription rather than a purchase. With a purchase, you feel you're making an investment with every purchase. With a subscription, you feel much less commitment to a product. Since Logos is also continuing to sell resources, this makes their marketing far more confusing. I imagine trying to explain to someone what they should buy and attaching a subscription to a commentary purchase makes it far less compelling.
- I would rather have no AI features at all than have to pay a monthly subscription for the latest features. The AI features were not very useful, especially if you have used Logos with a (free) ChatGPT window open next to it. You can already copy, paste, and summarize. I did not find the AI search very useful (maybe it will get better?), and the sermon assistant is easily accomplished in ChatGPT apart from Logos. I can see how it would be helpful for people who have never actively used ChatGPT as a tool, but learning to use ChatGPT gives you 85% of the added benefit of Logos Pro, which decreases its value significantly.
- The fact that you're including instant light/dark mode in Pro doesn't make sense. This is not an AI feature and is simply holding back a feature from users who don't subscribe. If this is indicative of Logos' future direction, then this is very disappointing. Logos has always promised that the engine is free to use for your purchased resources. How is this not part of the engine?
- I own the majority of commentaries and resources included in Pro, and yet I get no discount or dynamic pricing on a subscription. How does this make sense for someone like me who has invested so much in Logos? I think you're going to frustrate your primary user base by making this move.
- Am not particularly anxious about losing access to my books
- Am not at all interested in AI bells & whistles and certainly won't subscribe for them
- Personally think they are going this way because subscription and because AI bells & whistles are what they're left with now
- Think we'll keep hearing verbiage about "we're listening" and "we're considering offering ownable features" when in actuality they've already made up their minds about it.
- — Worship changes the worshiper into the image of the One worshiped —
- Will I lose my features, books, or investment in Logos?
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No, your investment in Logos is safe, and you’ll always be able to access your content in Logos for free.
You aren’t required to subscribe to keep your access to content or features you already own. The subscription is for anyone who wants access to the latest version of Logos which will get new features or improvements roughly every six weeks.
If you’ve already purchased Logos packages or feature sets, those are yours to keep—you won’t lose them. You’ll continue to be able to use the features you’ve paid for, regardless of whether you subscribe to the latest version.
- Do I have to subscribe to keep access to Logos?
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No, you won’t be forced to subscribe to Logos.
Unlike most software companies, we make our latest software available to everyone. Even if the last feature set you bought was Logos 4 in 2009 (or even version 1 in 1992!), you’ll continue to receive free app updates, ensuring you can keep using Logos anytime you change computers or upgrade your operating system. You’ll continue to receive bug fixes for free, too. What you won’t get is access to the powerful new and improved features that will be offered in the subscription version of Logos.
- Can I still buy and keep books, or will they be a subscription too?
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None of this changes. You’ll still be able to purchase books, either individually or as a library, and you’ll own them forever.
You’ll still be able to buy permanent access to Logos libraries and any other books from our catalog. In the future, we may add rental options for those who want it, but we don’t foresee a time when we’ll stop selling permanent licenses to books and curated libraries.
- It costs less in the short run
I was paying $400 every couple of years to maintain my Platinum Logos. Subscribing for $99/year is cheaper. - God's servants are rarely wealthy.
At some point, Logos will run out of first-time buyers who will pay big bucks for a full-featured version. A subscription model will allow them to get started using Logos for a modest cost. - I want Logos to be financially healthy.
Like many others, I have invested many hours saving tens of thousands of Notes and Highlights. If Logos were to go out of business, it would all be lost.
I agree this is disappointing and frustrating. Here's my post from the other thread: I have tried out the new AI features. Here's my opinion:
Personally, I will not be getting a subscription, and at this point, I will not be recommending Logos until we see how this pans out. I'm hoping that the subscription model will fizzle, and we'll go back to purchasing feature updates as before. If that happens, I'll continue to commend Logos as a good investment. Until then, I'm not so sure. That's my 2 cents. 
Okay, where is the positive response to their retaining a purchase model as well?
[quote]Perpetual feature licensing, in some form, will remain a component of our new subscription model.
They listen, they respond, and we still gripe. I don't get it.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
They listen, they respond, and we still gripe. I don't get it.
It seems like they didn't listen. They are still moving to a primarily subscription model rather than having subscriptions as an optional add-on to utilize AI features. They also didn't give any details on what it means for "feature licensing to be a component of their new subscription model." So that raises concerns as well. It'd be great if we had some specifics.
Okay, where is the positive response to their retaining a purchase model as well?
[quote]Perpetual feature licensing, in some form, will remain a component of our new subscription model.
They listen, they respond, and we still gripe. I don't get it.
Maybe the wording.... That "in some form, will remain a component of our new subscription model".....
A clear statement that "we heard you and will continue to provide the traditional purchase option in addition to our new subscription model" would have been pleasing....
The vague response.... Well it hints towards the "rent to own" model of earning credit for subscribing.... Could be wrong... But due to the insistence of Logos to avoid a direct clarification, we are left with vague information and the carrot on the stick of "working on it"....
I hope they are not planning to announce that "rent to own" path as the perpetual licenses plan - that would be a slap in the face to all who made clear there was no interest in subscriptions of any form....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
They listen, they respond, and we still gripe. I don't get it.
I was anticipating more personal interaction in the forums. Concerning the email, I agree with you. It seems clear to me that they listened to user feedback. They have now explicitly promised the option of future feature ownership, which was overwhelmingly desired. As with any change, some users will be displeased while others will be pleased. But I don't think one can make the case any longer that they didn't listen to or care about user feedback.
Okay, where is the positive response to their retaining a purchase model as well?
[quote]Perpetual feature licensing, in some form, will remain a component of our new subscription model.
They listen, they respond, and we still gripe. I don't get it.
I think this is an excellent move. I'm still anxious generally about the change of hands (its all still new to me, what I know of PE firms makes me uneasy) but the fact they listened and responded with some form of ownership potential is encouraging.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
I'm someone who really likes subscriptions for some things. I've had a Logos now subscription since joining in 2016, having access to every feature upgrade, free ebooks and 2 free courses a year seemed like a much better option than buying the whole feature set and instead putting the saved money into resources.
I would love it if Logos had a rent-to-own option and if the new subscription model has features I'm interested in, I'll pay a subscription for it. I did a trial of Logos Pro and have no interest in the current features and won't continue the subscription unless something really useful comes along.
That being said, I'm happy paying a subscription, but only if there is there is still an option to purchase "forever-access" features.
If it was subscription only, out of principal I wouldn't subscribe and I'd just stick with my Logos 10 features. I'd be more than happy to still be using Logos 10 in 20 years time, I've got enough resources to last me a life time and I would probably just buy a few commentaries here and there.
"Your speech must always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person." - Colossians 4:6
If it was subscription only, out of principal I wouldn't subscribe and I'd just stick with my Logos 10 features. I'd be more than happy to still be using Logos 10 in 20 years time, I've got enough resources to last me a life time and I would probably just buy a few commentaries here and there.
Same here....
I guess the "silver lining" of the lack of clarity and dangling the carrot is the money that I have saved.... At first I was disappointed and getting frustrated at the resources that were on my short list were on decent sales, but I will not purchase until there is clarity.... I guess I am now at the point that I am looking at the fact that I've saved almost $500 by Logos dragging their feet on giving a clear statement on Perpetual License purchases... Well as a PLUS.... I save the money and don't give financial support to a company that doesn't value customers enough to give a timely and clear statement....
Still have a little over a hundred dollars in the cart.... Guess there is still a very small part of me hoping for TRUE clarity, whether in the forums, another email, a response to emails that I sent after receiving the "update" earlier....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
but I will not purchase until there is clarity.... Logos dragging their feet on giving a clear statement on Perpetual License purchases...
I think the situation is clear enough. Resources you purchase have a permanent license. That has not changed, and as far as I can tell, never will.
There are two big issues that seem to be bringing a lot of confusion.
The first one is all of the ridiculous hype about AI. The second seems to be Logos trying to figure out how to fund AI development.
My advice to Logos would be to be very slow and careful. Do not compromise a great existing product in any way to chase after the illusion of AI. Logos spent time and resources to develop metadata tagging that allowed proven indexing methods to deliver the best results. The benefit of all of this work has still not been fully realized, because the search interface is still too difficult for the average user.
AI is not an easy fix to this problem. AI is not an easy fix to any problem. The seemingly impressive results produced by AI must be considered in light of the fact that they are completely unreliable and biased.
In a rush to get "out there" Google made big mistakes which saw its stock shares drop $100 Billion. I think Google will survive.
Microsoft's recent attempt to catch up with Apple's use of ARM processors and get ahead in the AI has announced a completely new ARM based Windows, running on completely new hardware, with the main attraction a new AI "assistant" called co-pilot.
I predict that Microsoft is in for yet another huge failure with its ARM based Windows. When the time comes to force people to buy new computers, many of them might decide its time to get a mac instead. Windows 11, with its stuffing of advertising into the system menus, is already forcing a lot of people back to Windows 10.
It is impossible to predict the fallout in the market. But one thing is certain ... Future computers will have AI capability built into the hardware.
Microsoft is making this clear by requiring Co-pilot PC's to have a "neural processor".
Apple already has a path forward in the design of its M4 processor. macOS and iOS are already seeing integrated AI in each new release. Unlike Google and Microsoft, Apple is slowly moving forward, releasing AI features after it has time to properly test and debug them.
I have not been keeping up with the latest developments at Logos, so correct me if I am wrong ... but Logos is experimenting with a server based AI model. And for now this is good. These are just experiments (I hope). The future will probably end up being a divided market with Apple and Microsoft having different (and incompatible) AI implementations. Third party software would typically access AI processing hardware through an interface (API) provided to the application by the operating system.
Is Logos going to attempt to do AI on all platforms? If Logos AI is designed to integrate with Siri for example, the same features would be available on phones, tablets, macbooks, and desktop macs. But they would not work on Windows (obviously).
The advantage of Logos creating its own "AI" features is that it could possibly still take advantage of the extensive tagging and metadata that exists in Logos resources. Of course there is never going to be an "off the shelf" AI solution that can do this. Microsoft has no interest in theologically accurate results. Apple doesn't either.
The disadvantage is that Logos will not be able to integrate well into any of these new systems if it does not utilize the provided interfaces and programming methods, which in turn will take advantage of the processing power of the new AI enabled hardware.
Me personally, I don't need AI. I need to learn how to use Logos better (as it is right now). AI is a huge experiment that will take years, maybe decades to work itself out. I don't need artificial intelligence. I want Logos to help me grow in REAL intelligence.
but I will not purchase until there is clarity.... Logos dragging their feet on giving a clear statement on Perpetual License purchases...I think the situation is clear enough. Resources you purchase have a permanent license. That has not changed, and as far as I can tell, never will.
Just to clarify my comments, as it seems you may think that I am not buying due to concern of losing paid for books/resources.... I am aware that as of today the sales pitch is still you own your books and supposedly your features "forever".... The latter though advertised has proven to be consistently ignored through the years via deprecation.... Books.... As of now, I'm not that concerned.... That may change by the end of the year....
I am not buying until I see Logos acknowledge the overwhelming desire of its users/customers to OWN their features - so the longer they drag their feet on providing straight forward answers - the longer I don't buy anything and recommend people avoid buying into Logos, upgrading or making purchases of any kind... I have a few holding off from buying their first package due to this subscription fiasco.... I have them testing the alternative - just in case.... (And NO - some form of perpetual ownership is not an answer! I have heard the suggestions of a "Rent to Own" type ownership model - a subscription is still a subscription - whether you earn credits or don't....)
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
I am aware that as of today the sales pitch is still you own your books and supposedly your features "forever".... The latter though advertised has proven to be consistently ignored through the years via deprecation....
There are historically two main ways that software has been sold:
Perpetual License. Think Office 95, Windows 95, etc. You buy the software for a one-time fee. You get the installation media. You can install it on as many computers as the license allows. It is yours "forever". You can keep running it as long as you have compatible hardware and software. You are responsible for all IT support, OS compatibility, backups, etc. Sometimes small updates or security patches are provided by the vendor, but not always. Although you have a license to it "forever", practical concerns mean that eventually it'll probably stop working and you need to buy an upgraded version to support your new computer. The version you bought probably only supported Windows and if you want to run it on macOS or iPad you need to buy a new/upgraded version.
Subscription. Think Adobe Creative Cloud, Microsoft 365, etc. You "rent" the software. The vendor keeps it up to date, usually by hosting it on a server for you, but sometimes by continually providing downloadable updates (while you remain a subscriber). It always works on the latest hardware and OS because the vendor keeps maintaining it. Support for multiple platforms (including new ones that didn't exist when you first started subscribing) is usually included as part of the subscription. Features may come and go during the lifetime of the software, based on changing market demands and user needs. If you stop subscribing, you lose access to everything.
What I hear you asking for is: "I would like all the benefits of subscription software such as continual updates and support for new OSes, and to have features maintained forever and to never lose access to them, but I would like to only pay once, like a perpetual license." Is that a fair restatement of your position?
Or are you saying that you want to return to a "true" perpetual license, where you buy a specific version (say v35) of the Logos engine, receive no updates to it, and can choose when to upgrade to v39 or v53 for some pro-rated fee based on the difference between the two versions?
I am aware that as of today the sales pitch is still you own your books and supposedly your features "forever".... The latter though advertised has proven to be consistently ignored through the years via deprecation....There are historically two main ways that software has been sold:
Perpetual License. Think Office 95, Windows 95, etc. You buy the software for a one-time fee. You get the installation media. You can install it on as many computers as the license allows. It is yours "forever". You can keep running it as long as you have compatible hardware and software. You are responsible for all IT support, OS compatibility, backups, etc. Sometimes small updates or security patches are provided by the vendor, but not always. Although you have a license to it "forever", practical concerns mean that eventually it'll probably stop working and you need to buy an upgraded version to support your new computer. The version you bought probably only supported Windows and if you want to run it on macOS or iPad you need to buy a new/upgraded version.
Subscription. Think Adobe Creative Cloud, Microsoft 365, etc. You "rent" the software. The vendor keeps it up to date, usually by hosting it on a server for you, but sometimes by continually providing downloadable updates (while you remain a subscriber). It always works on the latest hardware and OS because the vendor keeps maintaining it. Support for multiple platforms (including new ones that didn't exist when you first started subscribing) is usually included as part of the subscription. Features may come and go during the lifetime of the software, based on changing market demands and user needs. If you stop subscribing, you lose access to everything.
What I hear you asking for is: "I would like all the benefits of subscription software such as continual updates and support for new OSes, and to have features maintained forever and to never lose access to them, but I would like to only pay once, like a perpetual license." Is that a fair restatement of your position?
Or are you saying that you want to return to a "true" perpetual license, where you buy a specific version (say v35) of the Logos engine, receive no updates to it, and can choose when to upgrade to v39 or v53 for some pro-rated fee based on the difference between the two versions?
My suggestion all along has been do the Subscription Model, it will bring in a new user base.... But, continue the traditional upgrade avenue that has existed. The same way we upgraded from Libronix, to L4, to L5 and so on to L10.... This would keep the same customer base that have been supporting the company through the years likely to continue doing so...
I have no problem at all with a Subscription Model, it is Subscription Only that I am protesting in these threads. That includes a "Rent to Own" perpetual license where I have to subscribe to earn credits... Many of us had said we understand that we would not have AI, as that does incur a cost and if I wanted AI I would subscribe for it. However, the model that has been used for as long as I have been a customer shouldn't be abolished, a combination of the "legacy" purchase option alongside the new subscription model would give the widest base of satisfied customers.
As a side note, some of what you imply that I want to benefit from "subscription" benefits have long been the promise of Logos to even single purchase customers, as well as those of us who upgrade regularly... The keeping features, updates and updates for new OS version in the free engine.... But those of us who upgrade usually pay a good price to do so and as others have stated, likely more than the cost of subscription...
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
As a safeguard, I made a PDF printout of everything included in my purchase of the Logos 10 Full Feature Upgrade so that I have a verified record of everything I have as part of that purchase in case of the possibility that any of that functionality should get lost and moved to subscription features. I'm honestly not ruling out the possibility of this (contrary to what Faithlife is saying), and I have good reason for that.
Many years ago, going all the way back to the days of version 2 of Logos (before Libronix), I purchased from Galaxie Software the Theological Journal Library CD Volumes 1-5 (designed for version 2 of Logos Bible Software at that time). I had access to all of the included theological journals that were part of the collection both within version 2 of Logos and within the later Libronix. However, since then, only some of those theological journals are now accessible to me in the current version of Logos, but not all of them. After back-and-forth e-mails with support, they said that this would be looked into, but no resolutions were provided that would enable me to access the journals that were accessible to me in Logos version 2 and in Libronix.
That experience has caused me to be skeptical about what was said of any already paid-for functionality not being moved to a subscription in order to be used. It better be true and it better remain true. I'm already not happy with Faithlife as to not being able to access resources I paid for years ago that were accessible previously.
Count me as one who is not concerned. Logos is not going away. In a sense they are going backwards - to Logo 6 and the Logos NOW subscription that brought us new features as soon as they were released. No waiting two years for the next release back then.
There will always be a free version of Logos, just as now. There will be some sort of permanent feature purchase option. Books will still be purchased not rented.
For perspective, maybe like me you subscribe to an anti-virus program, or a back-up program, a malware detection program, or a suite of Office apps. Like me you may buy a new version of your tax preparation or some other program every year. I don't complain about this. Maybe you don't either. We understand why we do this and why there is a subscription or recurring purchase required. I hope we'll see the Logos subscription the same way.
If I can't afford the subscription or just choose not to subscribe, I will still have a very robust Bible Study program. No complaints.
This isn't apocalyptic. With the assurances Logos is giving, it just seems a bit like old times.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
Maybe I am ignorant, but with the benefit of the subscription model providing consistent monthly revenue to Logos, can't they just name a price (a reasonable price) for those of us who want to purchase (and own) the feature set and then have their bean counters manage the cash flow from purchase sales to meet their monthly needs?
And, as one Logosian (Denese's term) pointed out, the features they are offering in the new subscription pricing are not attractive to me at all.
Maybe I am ignorant, but with the benefit of the subscription model providing consistent monthly revenue to Logos, can't they just name a price (a reasonable price) for those of us who want to purchase (and own) the feature set and then have their bean counters manage the cash flow from purchase sales to meet their monthly needs?
And, as one Logosian (Denese's term) pointed out, the features they are offering in the new subscription pricing are not attractive to me at all.
You would think this should be the simple answer.... Especially considering that Mark already stated they were looking at Annual and possibly BiAnnual Subscription Rates in another thread..... So if that is possible for a subscription - why is is so difficult to just respond to the feedback and continue offering the traditional purchase option??? The fact that they are looking at offering annual and biannual subscription pricing and no mention of not having access to New Features except every two years, no regualr updates.....
Sorry, but the only difference between Annual/BiAnnual Subscription and True Purchasing is being locked in to losing Features if you cancel.... If they are going to offer the Two Year Subscription Price but not the Traditional Purchase option, they invalidated most of their comments and due to their own vague responses and lack of direct answer leave us to read what we have and those points appear to show that the company wants to lock you into a subscription to keep you as a customer, rather than keeping us as customers the way they have for decades - Good Service and Good Product....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
Maybe I am ignorant, but with the benefit of the subscription model providing consistent monthly revenue to Logos, can't they just name a price (a reasonable price) for those of us who want to purchase (and own) the feature set and then have their bean counters manage the cash flow from purchase sales to meet their monthly needs?
And, as one Logosian (Denese's term) pointed out, the features they are offering in the new subscription pricing are not attractive to me at all.
You're not ignorant; that's the way so many things used to work until they all decided they had to have a monthly subscription stream instead because late stage capitalism.
I for one:
In a sense they are going backwards - to Logo 6 and the Logos NOW subscription that brought us new features as soon as they were released. No waiting two years for the next release back then.
I keep pointing it out to no avail. Faithlife connect was supposed to give new features as soon as they were released. See https://connect.faithlife.com/now-faq.
This link states: "This change ensures Logos Now customers get the exact same benefits of Logos Now—plus the additional benefits of Faithlife Connect."
Probably the biggest issue is that they do not have a Bob Pritchett anymore who was good at communicating.
Why is Logos moving to a subscription?
The world is changing fast, and customers have told us that they don’t want to have to wait two years to get new and improved features that would help them get deeper insights in less time. As a result, Logos must evolve to enable truth seeking at the same pace as the world we live in. With a subscription, you’ll get new features and improvements as soon as they’re ready—no more waiting for two years.
I never indicated such. I don't mind waiting for new and improved features.
Do Logos early access subscriptions include all the features, books, and perks included in existing subscriptions?
No, the new Logos subscriptions will include varying levels of features. The Logos Pro tier, for instance, includes every new feature not available anywhere else (Smart Search, Summarize, Sermon Assistant, and more) and most Logos 10 features. It also provides access to 430 books, but the library differs from those contained in Preaching Suite or Faithlife Connect. The new Logos subscriptions will also receive continual updates and new features roughly every six weeks as part of our shift to a continuous release cycle.
For those who end up subscribing, the most important question is what 430 books will they get? I doubt they'll include the top notch resources from Baker, Zondervan, Eerdmans, etc. Those will require royalty payments. What percentage will be older copyright free books? One reason I've invested so much in Logos over the years is to get the books I want, to build my library, according to my interests.
Right now, I have no plans to subscribe.
I am in the camp of those that I do not want to wait two years for new features in my most valuable piece of software. Of the software on my computer that means the most to me, Logos is increasingly sticking out as running on the old legacy model of major version updates every couple of years. I pay for regular updates for lessor important software, and I am prepared to invest to see Logos move more quickly with technology. That’s just me and I respect the views of others that wish for things to remain as they are.
With that said, many have complained about wanting to perpetually own new features. I think this is valid and I would place myself in that camp too. Whilst there is a lot of things to ‘get right’ about this concept, the communication rolled out yesterday is that there would be an option of owning perpetual licenses to new features. I will be always seeking to own features perpetually so that if I need to stop subscribing, I retain my capabilities.
This along with owning our books and seeing a base version that is reasonably competent, reduces my concerns. If Logos were to become a basic e-reader over time, there would be no market benefit for me to pay more for a resource in Logos than in Kindle where the ereader is completely free. I trust they are going to be sensible. I have a couple of pieces of software which I do not own their premium version, but their basic free version is very suitable for my needs.
All this to say, the proof is in the pudding, but I am optimistically looking forward. In the meantime, I think the dynamic resource toolbar will be a cool tool to see come to the desktop app. Bravo!
I keep pointing it out to no avail. Faithlife connect was supposed to give new features as soon as they were released. See https://connect.faithlife.com/now-faq.
This link states: "This change ensures Logos Now customers get the exact same benefits of Logos Now—plus the additional benefits of Faithlife Connect."
Probably the biggest issue is that they do not have a Bob Pritchett anymore who was good at communicating.
[Y][Y] I fully concur with your reading of the LN announcement!!
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
This isn't apocalyptic. With the assurances Logos is giving, it just seems a bit like old times.
Returning to Logos6, it is indeed ... and they couldn't deliver (regular early features). And staff is not stupid (though marketing copy seems that way). And if you're a new owner and you scan revenue sources, books aren't it. At best, sink Accordance, expand academic, and bumble around the church 'space'. That leaves the app.
I'd have to assume the features are the easy foot-in-the-water. Already, customers are used to buying 'features'. Subscribe them and pop the rates. But that's still peanuts (and a few frustrated customers). At some point, the app HAS to go subscription. Bible software just isn't the big money-machine. Assurances are sincere, but so are owners.
So, yes, sit back and enjoy Logos for a while.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
In a day and time where so many things are subscription-based (Microsoft 365, Amazon Prime, video streaming services, etc.), there's bound to come a point for some in which they will be cutting back on subscriptions just like there was a trend a few years ago on cutting cable television to save on pricy costs. I think this is bound to happen at some point as well with subscriptions in general (cutting subscriptions to save money). I think it would be wise for Logos to continue offering stand-alone purchases for features in the long run.
Speaking of Microsoft 365, while Microsoft would love to just have a subscription only, they know that they still have a significant part of their user base that is not interested in a subscription and still offer the periodic perpetual license purchases for Microsoft Office. Microsoft Office 2024 non-subscription version will be here in the not too distant future. They don't want to lose significant revenue and benefit from both subscription and one-time purchase customers. Office 2021 was the last purchasable version so it's been a wait but that's okay for many.
Hopefully Logos continues to do likewise.
In the end, if the short term features make it worthwhile I could end up with a subscription and a one-time purchase if it makes sense. But in the end, I want all the features rolled up into the next version.
Speaking of Microsoft 365
I don't see the use of this comparison. MS Office is an office product. If it goes away, our files will convert to another Google docs or another program. But this is not the case with Logos.
The comparison is that having both streams of revenue is sustainable and Microsoft is one of the bigger examples.
I am glad Logos has listened to the feedback and has decided to do so for now. What that actually means remains to be seen.
I don't see the use of this comparison. MS Office is an office product. If it goes away, our files will convert to another Google docs or another program. But this is not the case with Logos.
There is some truth to what you are saying. For me though, it didn't work out quite that way. When I upgraded my computer, I could no longer use an older version of Microsoft Office. I used some open-source programs for a while and they did work for most things, but not quite as clean and easy as Microsoft Office. Although not a fan of subscription, I looked into Microsoft 365 and reluctantly decided to give it a try. It is now unlikely that I would ever go back to the perpetual license purchase of Microsoft Office. What I have now just seems to do exactly what I need and is constantly updated without the need to purchase new versions.
To be clear, I am not comparing Microsoft to Logos. They are two completely different companies. I do have to say though, I feel that I have benefited by the extra things that Logos brings to my Bible study and will continue to bring, whether through purchase or subscription. While other entities may do an okay job, I don’t think that they can do as good a job as Logos.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
I am confused over how somethings are to be implemented under the new L11 Pro version:
Since it appears that the subscription is inclusive of 400+ books, what happens if you already OWN those books? Can other works be used instead?
I get that my owned books should work with it, but is the magical AI feature then LIMITED to those 400plus books?
If a user has, say, 4,000 books, the results of a Search All using AI will inherently be less than desirable. If the user has denominational specific books desired to be searched instead, is this possible? If only 400 books can be used, am I as a user allowed to swap the in and out with the collection? Sometimes in research a "compare and contrast" approach is helpful to understand other segments of the Body of Christ view a topic. My example here would be the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Disclaimer: I have not signed up for the early release tests of L11Pro, and don't think I will be now or in the future. Personally, I would expect that a proper development, testing and implementation of AI could take upwards of a year. By then, we are half way to L12....
Jack W. Hayford
I am confused over how somethings are to be implemented under the new L11 Pro version:
Since it appears that the subscription is inclusive of 400+ books, what happens if you already OWN those books? Can other works be used instead?
I get that my owned books should work with it, but is the magical AI feature then LIMITED to those 400plus books?
If a user has, say, 4,000 books, the results of a Search All using AI will inherently be less than desirable. If the user has denominational specific books desired to be searched instead, is this possible? If only 400 books can be used, am I as a user allowed to swap the in and out with the collection? Sometimes in research a "compare and contrast" approach is helpful to understand other segments of the Body of Christ view a topic. My example here would be the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Disclaimer: I have not signed up for the early release tests of L11Pro, and don't think I will be now or in the future. Personally, I would expect that a proper development, testing and implementation of AI could take upwards of a year. By then, we are half way to L12....
An All search searches the entire Logos catalog, while a Books search is limited to your Library, and you can filter a Books search by collections, tags, authors, etc.
The 400+ books are not priced in the subscription, but are included to help grease the wheels of the feature sets. Or something like that. In any case, the same books are presented to all subscribers, so it's highly doubtful they will be switched around on an individual basis. Or that the subscription cost will be subject to dynamic pricing based on which of these books we already own. Think of them as bonus books.
Since it appears that the subscription is inclusive of 400+ books, what happens if you already OWN those books? Can other works be used instead?
Nothing! I have all all the books. If the case were to have the amount of books which one doesn't own that would be fair and understandable.
Blessings in Christ.
Since it appears that the subscription is inclusive of 400+ books, what happens if you already OWN those books? Can other works be used instead?
More like 500+ after the releases on May 16 and May 23. The books stated are the only ones offered, and they are usually Public Domain or in-house Lexham titles, or a few publishers that allow access-only books. But the last two releases are Copyright titles that replaced some Public Domain ones, but I relegated the T&T Clark Study Guides to the Cloud (15 out of 139) - which is purely my estimate of their utility.
You have to decide mainly on the basis of Features available only to subscription.
I get that my owned books should work with it, but is the magical AI feature then LIMITED to those 400plus books?
If a user has, say, 4,000 books, the results of a Search All using AI will inherently be less than desirable. If the user has denominational specific books desired to be searched instead, is this possible?
The use of AI is not limited by the subscription. A Smart AI search can use all the books in your Library + books in the Logos catalog that you don't own.
Dave
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Windows 11 & Android 13
I know Logos has said they were trying to have an announcement out by the end of May that would clarify the details of the perpetual ownership piece. I’m assuming this is not it, because all they said about it was “We’re still working out the details of how everything will come together”, which isn’t an announcement in it at all, but a kick the can down the road statement.
Hopefully they will have an actual update for us tomorrow.
Hopefully they will have an actual update for us tomorrow.
I hope not. I'm not up to a few hundred more examples of the hermeneutics of forumites re: Logos posts. [Actually, I skip many of them but try to read at least one from each author.] On a more generic sense, I would not want them to commit to what will be available in the Fall when they make their detailed announcement. Fencing themselves in too early results in releasing unfinished features or half complete reworking of interfaces.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
I subscribed to Logos Pro, and like the new "Smart Search". I work with Logos since 12 years and in these years I have added more the 1000 articles, sermons and own papers into it as "personal books". My question is: Why does the "Smart Search" not search in my documents? This is definitively a weak point. Thanks for posting an answer to my question and about the future features of the "smart search".
Blessings, Sandro
I had not noticed this, but just tried and you're right. I collect many articles from the internet and put them into personal books, and they only turn up in a precise search. Since the smart search is designed to search all Logos resources whether owned or not, it's understandable, but I'm thankful to you, Sandro, for pointing that out as it means we can't rely on Smart search to cover all our resources,
I have no interest in subscribing and have an active interest in avoiding AI usage in general, but I am reassured that they will maintain the standalone, permanent license versions. I want them to make money and support their great product, but subscriptions are a tough sell.
I have no interest in subscribing and have an active interest in avoiding AI usage in general, but I am reassured that they will maintain the standalone, permanent license versions. I want them to make money and support their great product, but subscriptions are a tough sell.
I hope that this is what they mean.... However, while they are working on it - the wording is vague and open to if what we are asking for in Perpetual Licenses is what they are talking about....
My concern is that they are defining the "in some form" Perpetual License as some form of Rent to Own - ignoring the fact that a Subscription is a subscription.... Some subscriptions may have a credit towards ownership program, but it is not the Perpetual License we are asking for....
Anything less than a traditional purchase option will be a smack in the face IMHO
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
My concern is that they are defining the "in some form" Perpetual License as some form of Rent to Own - ignoring the fact that a Subscription is a subscription.... Some subscriptions may have a credit towards ownership program, but it is not the Perpetual License we are asking for....
Anything less than a traditional purchase option will be a smack in the face IMHO
Agree. They're playing word games. People are familiar with communicating. Christians have major investments at question. That they save for. There's no mystery. Nor do corporate staffs have problems with analytics, or decision making. More like blowing up their company. Cash flow.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
My concern is that they are defining the "in some form" Perpetual License as some form of Rent to Own - ignoring the fact that a Subscription is a subscription.... Some subscriptions may have a credit towards ownership program, but it is not the Perpetual License we are asking for....
Anything less than a traditional purchase option will be a smack in the face IMHO
Agree. They're playing word games. People are familiar with communicating. Christians have major investments at question. That they save for. There's no mystery. Nor do corporate staffs have problems with analytics, or decision making. More like blowing up their company. Cash flow.
Yes, the perpetual license "in some form" is certainly not to be taken as the same form as we now know it.
The Early Access FAQ seems to put this pretty plainly-
I have no interest in subscribing and have an active interest in avoiding AI usage in general
The old, trusty Google search is going AI Google I/O 2024: New generative AI experiences in Search (blog.google) Actually, you been using rule-based AI for 30+ years without knowing it, and graph-based language models for parsing and translation for only slightly less.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
I was vehemently opposed to the subscription model at first because it removed the ability to purchase the full feature upgrade. Everything else remains the same. Whatever you buy, is yours. The Packages (standard, gold, diamond etc) are not going away. We will still be able to purchase those resources. The subscription gives low barrier of entry to full feature access. And if you are subscribed for two years consecutively, you will have rights to all the features except AI and Cloud, even if you cancel your subscription. That's good news because if you do not have the full feature set, they are giving you a payment plan set over two years.
The way Logos went about presenting all of this was horrible. I had to actually purchase the full feature set to know this information. But now that I have it, the pricing is discounted more than 60%. I think it worth it. I am on a payment plan now for the starter package which was how I was able to buy into Logos. without it id be using Olive Tree, paper books, and PDF's over multiple programs and drives. Logos allows me to keep it all in one place. If you can function without the subscription, you will still function without the subscription. The subscription is to get people in the door who don't have lump sum money.
And if you are subscribed for two years consecutively, you will have rights to all the features except AI and Cloud, even if you cancel your subscription. That's good news because if you do not have the full feature set, they are giving you a payment plan set over two years.
If Faithlife announced in advance what all of those features are (like they've done with the annual full feature upgrade in prior releases), that would have been nice. The problem is that under the new subscription model, you don't know upfront all you're paying for and getting that will be included in the Legacy Fallback License (the features you keep). That's one of a number of reasons why I'm so opposed to Faithlife's "get it all or get none of it" approach with the subscriptions.
Robert, you mentioned that packages such as Bronze, Silver and Gold are not going away. This is one area that I think we need some more explanation. The new versions of these packages (the ones that are considered to be Logos 11 packages) will only be available to subscribers. So, if you see a new package of books that you'd like to purchase, you won't be able to do so without a subscription. I don't really understand why that's necessary other than to drive subscription revenue. I can understand making us subscribe for the additional features, but why lock non-subscribers away from new packages?
The new versions of these packages (the ones that are considered to be Logos 11 packages) will only be available to subscribers. So, if you see a new package of books that you'd like to purchase, you won't be able to do so without a subscription.
Bob,
Speaking of Base Packages only, for the last several major releases, IF you had a subscription to Logos Now or later Faithlife Connect then you could buy just the books portion of the base package. However, IF you did not have that subscription, then yes you HAD to buy the combination of the library + Features base package.
So in short, you did have to have the features to buy the library. That was the only way they would sell it. (As best I remember it anyway.)
That is no different from what they did then to what they are doing now.
So in short, you did have to have the features to buy the library. That was the only way they would sell it. (As best I remember it anyway.)
That is no different from what they did then to what they are doing now.
Hi Roy,
You're right, but I guess it felt to me like I would have to wait to gain access to libraries if I didn't want to subscribe. I'm one of those who usually bought up to the Gold level in increments over time, adding both features and books as I was able to do so. In my mind, I was locking in the features with each upgrade, but that concept will no longer hold if I only maintain a subscription long enough to purchase a new library. The only way to "lock in" feature sets now will be to take advantage of the Legacy Fallback program. The question we'll have to answer is whether two years' worth of features is worth two years' of subscription fees. If the AI features (which we don't get to keep) are good enough, that should be an easy "yes".
Thanks for your input!
It's disappinting that Logos has decided to launch the next Version as a subscription.
When Logos first announced their switch to a subscription model, I jumped at the opportunity for these reasons:
May God continue to bless Logos for serving God's servants.
Jack
Very good points for some
It costs less in the short run
I was paying $400 every couple of years to maintain my Platinum Logos. Subscribing for $99/year is cheaper.
The question here is does the $198 for the two years equate to what you were obtaining with your purchases of Platinum each cycle? First, based on the little information we have to get Platinum Level comparison, you'd need Logos Max which is $129 per year IIRC - so $258.
Then with your Platinum purchase you owned all the Features - now you will own "To Be Determined" after two years - so there is a difference and while the cost may be cheaper - is the value comparable? is the value better? is the value less than what you are used to with the traditional option?
God's servants are rarely wealthy.
At some point, Logos will run out of first-time buyers who will pay big bucks for a full-featured version. A subscription model will allow them to get started using Logos for a modest cost.
The subscription can absolutely be a great entry into the Logos-verse, I think especially for seminary/Bible College students and some missionaries and ministers that are not hindered by the need for continual internet access.
I want Logos to be financially healthy.
Like many others, I have invested many hours saving tens of thousands of Notes and Highlights. If Logos were to go out of business, it would all be lost.
I believe all of us that have invested want to see Logos succeed - however we are also aware of Subscription fatigue, the fact that a subscription is a lot easier to walk away from and that turning away long time customers, rather than taking advantage of both subscribers and those who'd rather purchase is an insult to those long time customers that are not interested in subscribing and seems contrary to the goal of remaining financially healthy.... Disenfranchising faithful customers and/or leaving money on the table aren't arguments for financial health...
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
Its not as easy to walk away from a subscription as an early adopter at a cheaper rate though.
When ATT owned directv I got a directv stream package and free MAX at a much cheaper rate along with my unlimited phone plan. About half of what they charged new subscribers. That hook is set pretty deep because when the new subscriber goes up 20$ so does mine, but if I ever left for another plan I would lose that discount.
I view my early access Logos subscription similarly. The discount will make it hard to let it go. I felt that way when I had Logos Now but eventually I did stop it. I stopped it because I wanted to "own" everything. I don't think that philosophy ever saved me money.
Here's a stripped down link: https://www.logos.com/early-access/faq
Sadly, no thanks. I am glad for what I have.
Me, too!
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley
"Your speech must always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person." - Colossians 4:6
This is inside information, so not all hope is lost! I’ll buy whatever is made available and subscribe to the other features I might need. Hopefully they’ll now do pictures that zoom in and out like Accordance has. See this thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/186839.aspx
DAL
Given that Logos already does zooming (but only as contractually demanded), I do wonder. Is 'subscription' like a bribe?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
The disappointing thing is that Logos Bible Study won't just plainly reveal that this is the case without all the Hokey Pokey.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
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