Logos "we’re launching our next version of Logos as a subscription"
Comments
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In a day and time where so many things are subscription-based (Microsoft 365, Amazon Prime, video streaming services, etc.), there's bound to come a point for some in which they will be cutting back on subscriptions just like there was a trend a few years ago on cutting cable television to save on pricy costs. I think this is bound to happen at some point as well with subscriptions in general (cutting subscriptions to save money). I think it would be wise for Logos to continue offering stand-alone purchases for features in the long run.
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Gerald said:
Other than the mobile ed, I see no benefit to continue the Faith Life Connect after buying the full feature set. What say you?
I agree. I am still collecting three books a month, but recognise that when the new plans come out, there is not much good left in keeping Faith Life Connect going forward. (it will be discontinued). I believe there is going to be a discount for current Faith Life Connect subscribers, so it is worth keeping until the new deal comes out.
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Speaking of Microsoft 365, while Microsoft would love to just have a subscription only, they know that they still have a significant part of their user base that is not interested in a subscription and still offer the periodic perpetual license purchases for Microsoft Office. Microsoft Office 2024 non-subscription version will be here in the not too distant future. They don't want to lose significant revenue and benefit from both subscription and one-time purchase customers. Office 2021 was the last purchasable version so it's been a wait but that's okay for many.
Hopefully Logos continues to do likewise.
In the end, if the short term features make it worthwhile I could end up with a subscription and a one-time purchase if it makes sense. But in the end, I want all the features rolled up into the next version.
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Mark Smith said:
Count me as one who is not concerned. Logos is not going away. In a sense they are going backwards - to Logo 6 and the Logos NOW subscription that brought us new features as soon as they were released. No waiting two years for the next release back then.
There will always be a free version of Logos, just as now. There will be some sort of permanent feature purchase option. Books will still be purchased not rented.
For perspective, maybe like me you subscribe to an anti-virus program, or a back-up program, a malware detection program, or a suite of Office apps. Like me you may buy a new version of your tax preparation or some other program every year. I don't complain about this. Maybe you don't either. We understand why we do this and why there is a subscription or recurring purchase required. I hope we'll see the Logos subscription the same way.
If I can't afford the subscription or just choose not to subscribe, I will still have a very robust Bible Study program. No complaints.
This isn't apocalyptic. With the assurances Logos is giving, it just seems a bit like old times.
Mark, I am with you all the way on this. I think this will overall be good because it gives another option for people to use for making the most out of Logos Bible Software.
Pastor, Mt. Leonard Baptist Church, SBC
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I am confused over how somethings are to be implemented under the new L11 Pro version:
Since it appears that the subscription is inclusive of 400+ books, what happens if you already OWN those books? Can other works be used instead?
I get that my owned books should work with it, but is the magical AI feature then LIMITED to those 400plus books?
If a user has, say, 4,000 books, the results of a Search All using AI will inherently be less than desirable. If the user has denominational specific books desired to be searched instead, is this possible? If only 400 books can be used, am I as a user allowed to swap the in and out with the collection? Sometimes in research a "compare and contrast" approach is helpful to understand other segments of the Body of Christ view a topic. My example here would be the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Disclaimer: I have not signed up for the early release tests of L11Pro, and don't think I will be now or in the future. Personally, I would expect that a proper development, testing and implementation of AI could take upwards of a year. By then, we are half way to L12....
- — Worship changes the worshiper into the image of the One worshiped —
Jack W. Hayford
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Terry Kleinsmith said:
I am confused over how somethings are to be implemented under the new L11 Pro version:
Since it appears that the subscription is inclusive of 400+ books, what happens if you already OWN those books? Can other works be used instead?
I get that my owned books should work with it, but is the magical AI feature then LIMITED to those 400plus books?
If a user has, say, 4,000 books, the results of a Search All using AI will inherently be less than desirable. If the user has denominational specific books desired to be searched instead, is this possible? If only 400 books can be used, am I as a user allowed to swap the in and out with the collection? Sometimes in research a "compare and contrast" approach is helpful to understand other segments of the Body of Christ view a topic. My example here would be the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Disclaimer: I have not signed up for the early release tests of L11Pro, and don't think I will be now or in the future. Personally, I would expect that a proper development, testing and implementation of AI could take upwards of a year. By then, we are half way to L12....
An All search searches the entire Logos catalog, while a Books search is limited to your Library, and you can filter a Books search by collections, tags, authors, etc.
The 400+ books are not priced in the subscription, but are included to help grease the wheels of the feature sets. Or something like that. In any case, the same books are presented to all subscribers, so it's highly doubtful they will be switched around on an individual basis. Or that the subscription cost will be subject to dynamic pricing based on which of these books we already own. Think of them as bonus books.
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Steven MacDonald said:
Speaking of Microsoft 365
I don't see the use of this comparison. MS Office is an office product. If it goes away, our files will convert to another Google docs or another program. But this is not the case with Logos.
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Terry Kleinsmith said:
Since it appears that the subscription is inclusive of 400+ books, what happens if you already OWN those books? Can other works be used instead?
Nothing! I have all all the books. If the case were to have the amount of books which one doesn't own that would be fair and understandable.
Blessings in Christ.
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The comparison is that having both streams of revenue is sustainable and Microsoft is one of the bigger examples.
I am glad Logos has listened to the feedback and has decided to do so for now. What that actually means remains to be seen.
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Mark said:
I don't see the use of this comparison. MS Office is an office product. If it goes away, our files will convert to another Google docs or another program. But this is not the case with Logos.
There is some truth to what you are saying. For me though, it didn't work out quite that way. When I upgraded my computer, I could no longer use an older version of Microsoft Office. I used some open-source programs for a while and they did work for most things, but not quite as clean and easy as Microsoft Office. Although not a fan of subscription, I looked into Microsoft 365 and reluctantly decided to give it a try. It is now unlikely that I would ever go back to the perpetual license purchase of Microsoft Office. What I have now just seems to do exactly what I need and is constantly updated without the need to purchase new versions.
To be clear, I am not comparing Microsoft to Logos. They are two completely different companies. I do have to say though, I feel that I have benefited by the extra things that Logos brings to my Bible study and will continue to bring, whether through purchase or subscription. While other entities may do an okay job, I don’t think that they can do as good a job as Logos.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Terry Kleinsmith said:
Since it appears that the subscription is inclusive of 400+ books, what happens if you already OWN those books? Can other works be used instead?
More like 500+ after the releases on May 16 and May 23. The books stated are the only ones offered, and they are usually Public Domain or in-house Lexham titles, or a few publishers that allow access-only books. But the last two releases are Copyright titles that replaced some Public Domain ones, but I relegated the T&T Clark Study Guides to the Cloud (15 out of 139) - which is purely my estimate of their utility.
You have to decide mainly on the basis of Features available only to subscription.
Terry Kleinsmith said:I get that my owned books should work with it, but is the magical AI feature then LIMITED to those 400plus books?
If a user has, say, 4,000 books, the results of a Search All using AI will inherently be less than desirable. If the user has denominational specific books desired to be searched instead, is this possible?
The use of AI is not limited by the subscription. A Smart AI search can use all the books in your Library + books in the Logos catalog that you don't own.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I know Logos has said they were trying to have an announcement out by the end of May that would clarify the details of the perpetual ownership piece. I’m assuming this is not it, because all they said about it was “We’re still working out the details of how everything will come together”, which isn’t an announcement in it at all, but a kick the can down the road statement.
Hopefully they will have an actual update for us tomorrow.
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Aaron Hamilton said:MJ. Smith said:
They listen, they respond, and we still gripe. I don't get it.
I was anticipating more personal interaction in the forums. Concerning the email, I agree with you. It seems clear to me that they listened to user feedback. They have now explicitly promised the option of future feature ownership, which was overwhelmingly desired. As with any change, some users will be displeased while others will be pleased. But I don't think one can make the case any longer that they didn't listen to or care about user feedback.
I’m perplexed by these comments. When Logos tell us that the feedback is that a significant portion of users don’t want them to launch as a subscription model, or at least have a subscription model not be the focus…but then say they are still launching as a subscription model, and that the subscription piece will be the focus…I think a case can certainly be made that they didn’t listen.
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Jon said:
Hopefully they will have an actual update for us tomorrow.
I hope not. I'm not up to a few hundred more examples of the hermeneutics of forumites re: Logos posts. [Actually, I skip many of them but try to read at least one from each author.] On a more generic sense, I would not want them to commit to what will be available in the Fall when they make their detailed announcement. Fencing themselves in too early results in releasing unfinished features or half complete reworking of interfaces.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Jon said:
I think a case can certainly be made that they didn’t listen.
Huh? One can genuinely listen and decide against the implementing the feedback's suggestion. Most of us experience this under the title "parenting." Their retention of some level of ownership option is sufficient evidence of listening and modifying their plan because of the feedback. I seem to be along in the interpretation of the church software purchase and resale without ever integrating into Logos and the sale of a controlling share of ownership being either (a) estate planning or (b) business problems within Logos. I expect new management to initially make necessary changes by fiat, followed by slower change getting to know their clientele, and finally a new, smooth, ever-evolving, new normal.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Jon said:
When Logos tell us that the feedback is that a significant portion of users don’t want them to launch as a subscription model, or at least have a subscription model not be the focus…but then say they are still launching as a subscription model, and that the subscription piece will be the focus…I think a case can certainly be made that they didn’t listen.
I think in this case it's about trying to organize the subscription plans such that they are more favorable to users by incorporating feedback into the decision-making process before launch. It is certainly not about whether they will launch "Logos 11" as a subscription. That was decided on day 1. It will happen. How exactly it will happen is still being decided. But the clearly expressed decision to integrate feature ownership as one aspect of their plans demonstrates, in my opinion, that they listen to and care about user feedback.
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MJ. Smith said:
I hope not. I'm not up to a few hundred more examples of the hermeneutics of forumites re: Logos posts.
Wasn't there talk of writing a book on the hermeneutics of the Logos forums? I for one would read it.
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Frank Sauer said:
but I will not purchase until there is clarity.... Logos dragging their feet on giving a clear statement on Perpetual License purchases...
I think the situation is clear enough. Resources you purchase have a permanent license. That has not changed, and as far as I can tell, never will.
There are two big issues that seem to be bringing a lot of confusion.
The first one is all of the ridiculous hype about AI. The second seems to be Logos trying to figure out how to fund AI development.
My advice to Logos would be to be very slow and careful. Do not compromise a great existing product in any way to chase after the illusion of AI. Logos spent time and resources to develop metadata tagging that allowed proven indexing methods to deliver the best results. The benefit of all of this work has still not been fully realized, because the search interface is still too difficult for the average user.
AI is not an easy fix to this problem. AI is not an easy fix to any problem. The seemingly impressive results produced by AI must be considered in light of the fact that they are completely unreliable and biased.
In a rush to get "out there" Google made big mistakes which saw its stock shares drop $100 Billion. I think Google will survive.
Microsoft's recent attempt to catch up with Apple's use of ARM processors and get ahead in the AI has announced a completely new ARM based Windows, running on completely new hardware, with the main attraction a new AI "assistant" called co-pilot.
I predict that Microsoft is in for yet another huge failure with its ARM based Windows. When the time comes to force people to buy new computers, many of them might decide its time to get a mac instead. Windows 11, with its stuffing of advertising into the system menus, is already forcing a lot of people back to Windows 10.
It is impossible to predict the fallout in the market. But one thing is certain ... Future computers will have AI capability built into the hardware.
Microsoft is making this clear by requiring Co-pilot PC's to have a "neural processor".Apple already has a path forward in the design of its M4 processor. macOS and iOS are already seeing integrated AI in each new release. Unlike Google and Microsoft, Apple is slowly moving forward, releasing AI features after it has time to properly test and debug them.
I have not been keeping up with the latest developments at Logos, so correct me if I am wrong ... but Logos is experimenting with a server based AI model. And for now this is good. These are just experiments (I hope). The future will probably end up being a divided market with Apple and Microsoft having different (and incompatible) AI implementations. Third party software would typically access AI processing hardware through an interface (API) provided to the application by the operating system.
Is Logos going to attempt to do AI on all platforms? If Logos AI is designed to integrate with Siri for example, the same features would be available on phones, tablets, macbooks, and desktop macs. But they would not work on Windows (obviously).
The advantage of Logos creating its own "AI" features is that it could possibly still take advantage of the extensive tagging and metadata that exists in Logos resources. Of course there is never going to be an "off the shelf" AI solution that can do this. Microsoft has no interest in theologically accurate results. Apple doesn't either.
The disadvantage is that Logos will not be able to integrate well into any of these new systems if it does not utilize the provided interfaces and programming methods, which in turn will take advantage of the processing power of the new AI enabled hardware.
Me personally, I don't need AI. I need to learn how to use Logos better (as it is right now). AI is a huge experiment that will take years, maybe decades to work itself out. I don't need artificial intelligence. I want Logos to help me grow in REAL intelligence.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
It is certainly not about whether they will launch "Logos 11" as a subscription. That was decided on day 1. It will happen. How exactly it will happen is still being decided. But the clearly expressed decision to integrate feature ownership as one aspect of their plans demonstrates, in my opinion, that they listen to and care about user feedback.
That is my read on it. The big shift on the dial from feedback was the ability to buy perpetual licenses to new features. My interpretation is that they heard users express concerns that if a time came where they could not afford a subscription that they lose everything, so Logos seems to have included this in their plans.
So what perpetual licenses for new features look like, will be probably for some the next topic of mega threads on this forum. Some will likely be happy in that they can avoid a rolling subscription cost, but get new features that don’t require extensive computing resources. Others might take some umbrage that the only acceptable answer is to keep things as they are.
Regardless of one’s use case and consumer preferences, substantial change is generally not easy. I think the only pathway forward is to do it as they have done, engaging the most active members on this forum with an early release. In effect, we are a bit of a focus group. Had they not done this and then in shock and awe announced a done deal in November, it would have been much, much worse because they would have missed the opportunity to refine their strategy and build a better product with our input. If Logos doesn't want our input and this is all a slow roll, then we are indeed in big trouble.
I have said it once, and I’ll say it again, there is another Bible software product where they would have locked these kinds of threads long before now. Logos on the other hand has taken a different posture and for now, I see this is an indicator of this new management’s intent to pursue their vision by listening to us.
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I subscribed to Logos Pro, and like the new "Smart Search". I work with Logos since 12 years and in these years I have added more the 1000 articles, sermons and own papers into it as "personal books". My question is: Why does the "Smart Search" not search in my documents? This is definitively a weak point. Thanks for posting an answer to my question and about the future features of the "smart search".
Blessings, Sandro
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I had not noticed this, but just tried and you're right. I collect many articles from the internet and put them into personal books, and they only turn up in a precise search. Since the smart search is designed to search all Logos resources whether owned or not, it's understandable, but I'm thankful to you, Sandro, for pointing that out as it means we can't rely on Smart search to cover all our resources,
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John said:Frank Sauer said:
but I will not purchase until there is clarity.... Logos dragging their feet on giving a clear statement on Perpetual License purchases...
I think the situation is clear enough. Resources you purchase have a permanent license. That has not changed, and as far as I can tell, never will.
Just to clarify my comments, as it seems you may think that I am not buying due to concern of losing paid for books/resources.... I am aware that as of today the sales pitch is still you own your books and supposedly your features "forever".... The latter though advertised has proven to be consistently ignored through the years via deprecation.... Books.... As of now, I'm not that concerned.... That may change by the end of the year....
I am not buying until I see Logos acknowledge the overwhelming desire of its users/customers to OWN their features - so the longer they drag their feet on providing straight forward answers - the longer I don't buy anything and recommend people avoid buying into Logos, upgrading or making purchases of any kind... I have a few holding off from buying their first package due to this subscription fiasco.... I have them testing the alternative - just in case.... (And NO - some form of perpetual ownership is not an answer! I have heard the suggestions of a "Rent to Own" type ownership model - a subscription is still a subscription - whether you earn credits or don't....)
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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I know that you and some others have concluded there is an "overwhelming desire of its users/customers to OWN their features". I am somewhat of a statistician and I am convinced that a few dozen people out of tens of thousands does not reflect anything. It's quite possible there is a silent majority who are either happy with where Logos is heading or are wise enough to wait and see.
It's good that those who are unhappy with a subscription model have made their voices heard because Logos has heard them. But please stop saying that the majority of people are against the new model, because so far less than 1% of Logos users have said so!
With regard to the time Logos is taking to respond, I'm from the motor industry where it takes years to introduce a new model, and I'm sure other industries and sectors need months to finalise plans for a major change, so why complain when you don't get instant responses - let's give them time to finalise their plans.
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John,
Great summation of the AI trend which has substantially increased the market value for Microsoft and Nvidia (don't believe me check out their market value in the last few years).
That said, I think there is confusion about LLM (large language models). There are public and private versions. There are essentially private versions running in the cloud. In some ways, similar to methods for hosting pictures (Apple Photos, SmugMug, Photo processing sites, NAS, private cloud, or local pc, USB drive, etc.) Not all of these have the same risks, as even most of the Federal Government now uses the cloud.
https://www.datacamp.com/blog/the-pros-and-cons-of-using-llm-in-the-cloud-versus-running-llm-locally
I agree it is still important to focus on the fundamentals, such as correct tagging and metadata, but LLM have the capability to substantially increase the ease by which we can find and use this information (our info, books, & logos resources).
One of the reasons I use Logos, is because I don't trust Microsoft, Google, or Apple (morality, ethics, biblical alignment, search, content prioritization, etc.), but that doesn't mean carefully using the latest technology should be avoided.
I'm assuming most of us use technology from the key providers simply because it helps us operate more efficiently.
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John said:
The benefit of all of this work has still not been fully realized, because the search interface is still too difficult for the average user.
And....a GREAT BIG AMEN to this!!! [Y]
Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College0 -
Myke Harbuck said:John said:
The benefit of all of this work has still not been fully realized, because the search interface is still too difficult for the average user.
And....a GREAT BIG AMEN to this!!!
A great big 'For sure, aye.' from up here in Canada.
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Roger Pitot said:
I know that you and some others have concluded there is an "overwhelming desire of its users/customers to OWN their features". I am somewhat of a statistician and I am convinced that a few dozen people out of tens of thousands does not reflect anything. It's quite possible there is a silent majority who are either happy with where Logos is heading or are wise enough to wait and see.
It's good that those who are unhappy with a subscription model have made their voices heard because Logos has heard them. But please stop saying that the majority of people are against the new model, because so far less than 1% of Logos users have said so!
With regard to the time Logos is taking to respond, I'm from the motor industry where it takes years to introduce a new model, and I'm sure other industries and sectors need months to finalise plans for a major change, so why complain when you don't get instant responses - let's give them time to finalise their plans.
First off.... The insinuation that those that would prefer answers sooner rather than later are unwise is quite ignorant!
Second, what model of statistics would you be using to apply that the tens of thousands don't follow the sample size here on the forums? How do you know that the "silent majority" isn't for ownership? Where do you get less than 1%???
So... How about you stop insulting people, making up your own numbers and realize that those of us who have been around for decades, remember when Logos Management communicated much more clearly. Also, remember that the "x factor" is the PE firm... There are concerns with what some employees have posted on Glassdoor about the change in view since they came into play... So IF it is indeed now all about profit and not mission as well.... That could be reason for the consistency in vague responses and taking it so slow, as I have said previously - there are a couple Logos employees that I believe would handle it differently, which from the outside seems like something is holding them up ... Only they know, but those of us around for so long notice the difference and there is one main difference....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
... I have them testing the alternative - just in case....
There are no viable alternatives that will still likely be around in 5 years. The market that allowed them to exist is gone now. Lets face it ... the model where customers buy e-books at the same retail price as a printed book, and use the proceeds to write software ... is over. The new price for entry level Bible software is FREE. Free on websites, and free in software.
I still miss the simplicity of Bibleworks. But it was tied to a single platform. They did not have the resources to support multiple platforms. That platform today is nothing like it was. IMO Windows 7 was the last version anyone should have invested in.
No company can continue providing things for FREE. There has to be income to pay for development.
I am guessing that your "alternative" is Accordance, which I also have invested in. They are having great difficulty just staying functional on all the major platforms. Android development has ceased, and even macOS updates cause trouble preventing users from staying current with the OS. I would not expect this product to run natively on Windows ARM anytime soon. I hope for the best with this company. But realistically, they probably will not survive the next wave of new technology. And that next wave is here now.
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John said:
They are having great difficulty just staying functional on all the major platforms. Android development has ceased, and even macOS updates cause trouble preventing users from staying current with the OS.
You got THAT right. This morning my Accordance began crashing. Can't trace to a macOS change, and can narrow down to two modules. In any event, I'll see if future updates fix it. Not going to try the bug reporting route.
But it illustrates apps can die quickly, for any given user. When it dies, it's dead. I was impressed by the Logos plan, we'll maintain Logos, but concentrate on the subscription. Like they don't now.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Frank Sauer said:
I am aware that as of today the sales pitch is still you own your books and supposedly your features "forever".... The latter though advertised has proven to be consistently ignored through the years via deprecation....
There are historically two main ways that software has been sold:
Perpetual License. Think Office 95, Windows 95, etc. You buy the software for a one-time fee. You get the installation media. You can install it on as many computers as the license allows. It is yours "forever". You can keep running it as long as you have compatible hardware and software. You are responsible for all IT support, OS compatibility, backups, etc. Sometimes small updates or security patches are provided by the vendor, but not always. Although you have a license to it "forever", practical concerns mean that eventually it'll probably stop working and you need to buy an upgraded version to support your new computer. The version you bought probably only supported Windows and if you want to run it on macOS or iPad you need to buy a new/upgraded version.
Subscription. Think Adobe Creative Cloud, Microsoft 365, etc. You "rent" the software. The vendor keeps it up to date, usually by hosting it on a server for you, but sometimes by continually providing downloadable updates (while you remain a subscriber). It always works on the latest hardware and OS because the vendor keeps maintaining it. Support for multiple platforms (including new ones that didn't exist when you first started subscribing) is usually included as part of the subscription. Features may come and go during the lifetime of the software, based on changing market demands and user needs. If you stop subscribing, you lose access to everything.
What I hear you asking for is: "I would like all the benefits of subscription software such as continual updates and support for new OSes, and to have features maintained forever and to never lose access to them, but I would like to only pay once, like a perpetual license." Is that a fair restatement of your position?
Or are you saying that you want to return to a "true" perpetual license, where you buy a specific version (say v35) of the Logos engine, receive no updates to it, and can choose when to upgrade to v39 or v53 for some pro-rated fee based on the difference between the two versions?
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:Frank Sauer said:
I am aware that as of today the sales pitch is still you own your books and supposedly your features "forever".... The latter though advertised has proven to be consistently ignored through the years via deprecation....
There are historically two main ways that software has been sold:
Perpetual License. Think Office 95, Windows 95, etc. You buy the software for a one-time fee. You get the installation media. You can install it on as many computers as the license allows. It is yours "forever". You can keep running it as long as you have compatible hardware and software. You are responsible for all IT support, OS compatibility, backups, etc. Sometimes small updates or security patches are provided by the vendor, but not always. Although you have a license to it "forever", practical concerns mean that eventually it'll probably stop working and you need to buy an upgraded version to support your new computer. The version you bought probably only supported Windows and if you want to run it on macOS or iPad you need to buy a new/upgraded version.
Subscription. Think Adobe Creative Cloud, Microsoft 365, etc. You "rent" the software. The vendor keeps it up to date, usually by hosting it on a server for you, but sometimes by continually providing downloadable updates (while you remain a subscriber). It always works on the latest hardware and OS because the vendor keeps maintaining it. Support for multiple platforms (including new ones that didn't exist when you first started subscribing) is usually included as part of the subscription. Features may come and go during the lifetime of the software, based on changing market demands and user needs. If you stop subscribing, you lose access to everything.
What I hear you asking for is: "I would like all the benefits of subscription software such as continual updates and support for new OSes, and to have features maintained forever and to never lose access to them, but I would like to only pay once, like a perpetual license." Is that a fair restatement of your position?
Or are you saying that you want to return to a "true" perpetual license, where you buy a specific version (say v35) of the Logos engine, receive no updates to it, and can choose when to upgrade to v39 or v53 for some pro-rated fee based on the difference between the two versions?
My suggestion all along has been do the Subscription Model, it will bring in a new user base.... But, continue the traditional upgrade avenue that has existed. The same way we upgraded from Libronix, to L4, to L5 and so on to L10.... This would keep the same customer base that have been supporting the company through the years likely to continue doing so...
I have no problem at all with a Subscription Model, it is Subscription Only that I am protesting in these threads. That includes a "Rent to Own" perpetual license where I have to subscribe to earn credits... Many of us had said we understand that we would not have AI, as that does incur a cost and if I wanted AI I would subscribe for it. However, the model that has been used for as long as I have been a customer shouldn't be abolished, a combination of the "legacy" purchase option alongside the new subscription model would give the widest base of satisfied customers.
As a side note, some of what you imply that I want to benefit from "subscription" benefits have long been the promise of Logos to even single purchase customers, as well as those of us who upgrade regularly... The keeping features, updates and updates for new OS version in the free engine.... But those of us who upgrade usually pay a good price to do so and as others have stated, likely more than the cost of subscription...
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Sorry Frank, I was not intending to insult you.
If you read carefully what I said, it was simply that statistically there is insufficient data to conclude that the "overwhelming desire of its users/customers to OWN their features". I did not say they do or don't, merely that we cannot reach that conclusion. I don't make up my own numbers, clearly less than 1% of users (= a couple of hundred) have said that they are unhappy with the new model. That's a fact.
I understand that you and some others are emotional about this, so I won't respond to all your points, other than to say I have also been using Logos since Libronix days, and am very happy with the way it has helped me.
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John said:Frank Sauer said:
... I have them testing the alternative - just in case....
There are no viable alternatives that will still likely be around in 5 years. The market that allowed them to exist is gone now. Lets face it ... the model where customers buy e-books at the same retail price as a printed book, and use the proceeds to write software ... is over. The new price for entry level Bible software is FREE. Free on websites, and free in software.
No company can continue providing things for FREE. There has to be income to pay for development.
I am guessing that your "alternative" is Accordance, which I also have invested in. They are having great difficulty just staying functional on all the major platforms. Android development has ceased, and even macOS updates cause trouble preventing users from staying current with the OS. I would not expect this product to run natively on Windows ARM anytime soon. I hope for the best with this company. But realistically, they probably will not survive the next wave of new technology. And that next wave is here now.
It is clearly evident to me that Logos needs a revenue stream to continue maintenance on existing technology. Be that fixing bugs as related to operating software or performance features with-in Logos Bible Software platforms. I see the subscription model as a way to continue for Logos and still make improvements to its performance. Does it really matter that you own the features if the company ceases to operate? I bought the full feature set knowing I can use them with in a set point in time. After that set point it will become obsolete if Logos ceases to exist. If an upgrade to Logos 11 costs $500, is it better to pay $10 per month perpetually, and cross over the break even point at 50 months, or pay the $500 up front? It is a decision you will need to make if you continue with Logos.
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
What I hear you asking for is: "I would like all the benefits of subscription software such as continual updates and support for new OSes, and to have features maintained forever and to never lose access to them, but I would like to only pay once, like a perpetual license." Is that a fair restatement of your position?
Completely unrelated to Frank's post, I thought you did a great job defending the way Logos has sold features in the past. It is true that "forever" marketing is a bit of an eye roller, because there's no such thing as "forever," when it comes to purchased software licenses. One may well own the license forever, but a license to a dead product does noone any good. Nonetheless, it seems to be more or less accepted language in the marketing world. I think Logos has been quite fair with how they have handled software development and sales in the past, though I would be pleased if the marketing language matured beyond the overuse of the word "forever."
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Bradley,
Thanks for your input. I think you described well the difference between the two models. I prefer the perpetual license over the subscription and have always tried to purchase my software instead of rent. Occasionally, I have had to deal with my software stop working when updating to a new computer. This happened most recently when I upgraded to Windows 11. My older version of Adobe Photoshop would no longer work.
I don't expect to receive updates and new features without there being a cost. However, I would be more than willing to pay for an "upgrade/patch" to keep my current version and features running in the future when the next version of Windows is released. I wouldn't expect any additional features, just to be able to continue using my current version of Logos.
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Just a small voice here (feel free to disagree or ignore), but I have been on the subscription model for a few years now with the Logos Now (or whatever they call it). I haven't run the numbers, but assuming you keep up the software with the current version and full features, I bet that the expenses to subscribe have been less than if I was to "purchase" the full feature set at each Logos version.
I get it that some people hate the subscription model, but it really isn't as bad as some of the forum comments make it out to be.
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Bradley,
I thank you for this post, I think it is informative and helps (some) people understand the differences. And, I don't mean this in any bad way against some of the people on the forums, but your statement:
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:What I hear you asking for is: "I would like all the benefits of subscription software such as continual updates and support for new OSes, and to have features maintained forever and to never lose access to them, but I would like to only pay once, like a perpetual license." Is that a fair restatement of your position?
is exactly what it seems like some are wanting. I could be wrong, but I like how you asked the question.
Also, I'm glad that this thread isn't taking off like the first one that hit this length in just a few hours.
-Jon
Pastor, Mt. Leonard Baptist Church, SBC
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I am not sure where the evidence for "listening to us" exists. Pretty much nada. The direction is what we all speculated from the beginning, so I am not detecting any response whatsoever.
Subscribe so you get "features" 2 years earlier? What...new, sparkling gadgets? What about fixing what we want, that lies unfinished?
AI? Well, that was a good idea at first. I use it daily a lot. But the current integration in Logos (including that famous summarization) is worse than no AI.
When ChatGPT summarises, it actually does nothing of the kind. – R&A IT Strategy & Architecture (rna.nl)0 -
GaoLu said:
I am not sure where the evidence for "listening to us" exists. Pretty much nada.
In their most recent update they promise the possibility of feature ownership in the future. This was a possibility that was heavily requested in the feedback given and is evidence that they are listening.
I get it that many people want to explicitly hear that a possibility to purchase features without subscribing will be present in the future. While their statement leaves open that possibility, it admittedly does not answer the question.
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DMB said:
You got THAT right. This morning my Accordance began crashing. Can't trace to a macOS change, and can narrow down to two modules. In any event, I'll see if future updates fix it. Not going to try the bug reporting route.
But it illustrates apps can die quickly, for any given user. When it dies, it's dead. I was impressed by the Logos plan, we'll maintain Logos, but concentrate on the subscription. Like they don't now.
Yep. Something is not right with Accordance. It used to be the platinum experience of quality Bible software, but not now. How times have changed! The Browns must be sick to see this.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
Something is not right with Accordance
The days when Accordance and Logos were each profitable while running on a single operating system are long since over. The compromises and limitations of multiple platform development is very apparent to everyone except the consumer who wants the best of each platform available on all platforms. Unfortunately, I am one of those who understands the problem and still wants everything.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Frank Sauer said:
However, the model that has been used for as long as I have been a customer shouldn't be abolished ... some of what you imply that I want to benefit from "subscription" benefits have long been the promise of Logos to even single purchase customers, as well as those of us who upgrade regularly... The keeping features, updates and updates for new OS version in the free engine.... But those of us who upgrade usually pay a good price to do so and as others have stated, likely more than the cost of subscription...
A lot of those promises aren't changing. The software engine will continue to be available for free across multiple platforms (and kept up-to-date with the latest OS changes) so that you can always access your content.
It seems to me that a lot of the discussion here is about "features", which may lead to unfruitful conversations because I am guessing that word means many different things to different people.
The part of our model that we think needs to change is that many of the features are actually "services". Let's take "Lemma in Passage" as an example. It uses a database that we host and maintain, and need to keep updated with new resources. We could monetize it by making all new resources slightly more expensive (to cover the cost of inserting them into the database, but penalizing people who haven't also bought the Lemma in Passage "feature") but in my mind it just makes more sense to sell access to it as a subscription and pay for its ongoing expense via recurring subscription revenue.
(Note: I'm not saying that Lemma in Passage will be taken away from existing customers and converted to subscription-only. I'm using it as a hypothetical example of a feature that I think makes more sense as a subscription.)
Or take a "true" software feature like instant Light/Dark mode switching. Due to the complexity of our platform, this took significant developer effort to implement across all UI components. This is something we might have traditionally sold as part of a Full Feature Upgrade every two years. Because subscription provides incremental revenue for us now, we were able to launch that to subscribers early as a perk (instead of holding it back till Fall). When we did that, we received a number of complaints saying (paraphrasing) that it should have been implemented that way from the beginning and that it should be given away free to all L10 users today. That would be nice, I agree! But we can't pay our developers today with the sales revenue from two years ago. So this leads to a number of unsatisfying possibilities: (1) don't include Dark Mode in L10 at all, until it can be completely "finished" to avoid complaints about shipping incomplete features; (2) ship features in phases, but those phases have to ship two years apart because every two years is the only time we can sell new things; (3) charge more for the Logos 10 Full Feature Set for the promise of things that might come later but haven't even been started yet; (4) develop expensive software features with no business plan for how we'll recoup our investment and then give them away for free; (5) cut costs, lay off our software engineering teams, and slow development to a crawl.
None of us wants any of those options. (#1 and #2 are closest to what we do today, and speaking personally I want to avoid #5 as much as possible 😆)
We believe subscription is a good way to solve this problem. We can fund ongoing development on the software and be highly motivated to be very responsive to our users. If the subscription isn't delivering value (by solving problems our customers have), then they will cancel the subscription. We want to have a mutually beneficial relationship where you see the benefit of subscribing and we win your business every month.
GaoLu said:Subscribe so you get "features" 2 years earlier? What...new, sparkling gadgets? What about fixing what we want, that lies unfinished?
And, even better, we don't have to come up with a list of "new sparkling gadgets" every two years to make a big splash and sell upgrades. We can focus more on the core experience (like Dark Mode) and usability and performance and other things that users tell us they want but are really hard to sell as "new in Logos 11!".
At this point, you're probably saying "yes, yes, I've heard all the arguments for subscription before, you're not telling me anything new" 😀
Where does that leave us for customers who like the old model of buying perpetual licenses to Logos software features? I don't know exactly; we don't yet have a final answer on that. What I can say is that we're reading every single post and listening to all the feedback. Thanks for continuing to engage in the forums, and we will share more information as our plans evolve.
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It was mentioned earlier in the thread about how the resources you have now is what you keep in later versions of Logos, subscription or not. I wish I could say that was true in the case of a Galaxie Software theological journal library I purchased many years ago, back in the days in which that very early version of the software I purchased was designed for version 2 of Logos. All of those journals were accessible to me in both version 2 of Logos and in Libronix. But in later editions of Logos, only some of those journals are now accessible to me, but not all of them. I can't overlook that matter when being told that what I have access to now will remain accessible later on.
I also have a number of Logos resources from Thomas Nelson I purchased back in the days of version 2 of Logos that were designed for that version, and I've noticed that some of them are not available for separate purchase nowadays on logos.com, though I can fortunately still access them through the current version of Logos today (including a number of resources from J. Vernon McGee). I better not lose those resources in later editions of Logos.
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There have been a lot of good points brought up on both sides of the subscription issue.
Just a quick thought. The $10 per month people keep mentioning is going to be the minimum people will pay for the cheapest subscription. And that only applies to those of us who already purchased the Logos 10 full feature set. New customers will pay more.
There are two other tiers mentioned that they have not given any details as of yet.
I would be shocked if each tier did not include additional features so if I want all of the new features I would have to pay the top tier price.
If, for example, that price is $35 monthly, just a guess, then I would pay far more over 2 years than if I simply did a normal Logos 11 feature upgrade.
And even after paying all of that money, all of those new features would disappear if I stopped paying.
So far we have only seen the Pro tier. It will be interesting to see what the Pro Max and the Pro Max Ultra look like and cost.
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Steven MacDonald said:
for example, that price is $35 monthly,
I hope that it is not going to be too much up to that.
Blessings in Christ.
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As someone who was quick to criticize the light/dark mode switching being a "feature", I appreciate this response and it makes sense.Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:Or take a "true" software feature like instant Light/Dark mode switching. Due to the complexity of our platform, this took significant developer effort to implement across all UI components. This is something we might have traditionally sold as part of a Full Feature Upgrade every two years. Because subscription provides incremental revenue for us now, we were able to launch that to subscribers early as a perk (instead of holding it back till Fall). When we did that, we received a number of complaints saying (paraphrasing) that it should have been implemented that way from the beginning and that it should be given away free to all L10 users today. That would be nice, I agree! But we can't pay our developers today with the sales revenue from two years ago. So this leads to a number of unsatisfying possibilities: (1) don't include Dark Mode in L10 at all, until it can be completely "finished" to avoid complaints about shipping incomplete features; (2) ship features in phases, but those phases have to ship two years apart because every two years is the only time we can sell new things; (3) charge more for the Logos 10 Full Feature Set for the promise of things that might come later but haven't even been started yet; (4) develop expensive software features with no business plan for how we'll recoup our investment and then give them away for free; (5) cut costs, lay off our software engineering teams, and slow development to a crawl.
Thanks for commenting in this thread!"Your speech must always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person." - Colossians 4:6
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Steven MacDonald said:
So far we have only seen the Pro tier. It will be interesting to see what the Pro Max and the Pro Max Ultra look like and cost.
These are the three tiers mentioned in the email sent out earlier this week:
Logos Premium (for small group prep)
Logos Pro (for sermon prep)
Logos Max (for academic and original language study)
(Edited to add: the tiers and target users are also mentioned here: https://www.logos.com/early-access/faq)
Steven MacDonald said:The $10 per month people keep mentioning is going to be the minimum people will pay for the cheapest subscription.
If so, will Pro (which is currently $9.99) cost less than Premium? Or, put another way, does sermon prep require 'less features' than small group prep?
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I really appreciate the posts from Bradley Grainger. What is happening here makes sense, and it sounds like there's a positive plan to move forward. Thanks, Logos, for communicating so well with your users.
Pastor, Immanuel Evangelical-Lutheran Church (LCMS), Alexandria, VA
Vice President, The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (East-Southeast Region)
Author of (Dis)ordered: Lies about Human Nature and the Truth That Sets Us Free
Personal website: Esgetology
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:Frank Sauer said:
However, the model that has been used for as long as I have been a customer shouldn't be abolished ... some of what you imply that I want to benefit from "subscription" benefits have long been the promise of Logos to even single purchase customers, as well as those of us who upgrade regularly... The keeping features, updates and updates for new OS version in the free engine.... But those of us who upgrade usually pay a good price to do so and as others have stated, likely more than the cost of subscription...
A lot of those promises aren't changing. The software engine will continue to be available for free across multiple platforms (and kept up-to-date with the latest OS changes) so that you can always access your content.
The reason I responded with that is your believing I am looking for the benefits of subscription and one time purchase - you stated:
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:Frank Sauer said:I am aware that as of today the sales pitch is still you own your books and supposedly your features "forever".... The latter though advertised has proven to be consistently ignored through the years via deprecation....
What I hear you asking for is: "I would like all the benefits of subscription software such as continual updates and support for new OSes, and to have features maintained forever and to never lose access to them, but I would like to only pay once, like a perpetual license." Is that a fair restatement of your position?
Or are you saying that you want to return to a "true" perpetual license, where you buy a specific version (say v35) of the Logos engine, receive no updates to it, and can choose when to upgrade to v39 or v53 for some pro-rated fee based on the difference between the two versions?
The bold section being what we have always been told with Perpetual Purchases anyway, so unless you are hinting towards that eventually being phased out and only for subscribers - what benefits of subscription am I expecting for a Perpetual License purchase?
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:It seems to me that a lot of the discussion here is about "features", which may lead to unfruitful conversations because I am guessing that word means many different things to different people.
The part of our model that we think needs to change is that many of the features are actually "services". Let's take "Lemma in Passage" as an example. It uses a database that we host and maintain, and need to keep updated with new resources. We could monetize it by making all new resources slightly more expensive (to cover the cost of inserting them into the database, but penalizing people who haven't also bought the Lemma in Passage "feature") but in my mind it just makes more sense to sell access to it as a subscription and pay for its ongoing expense via recurring subscription revenue.
(Note: I'm not saying that Lemma in Passage will be taken away from existing customers and converted to subscription-only. I'm using it as a hypothetical example of a feature that I think makes more sense as a subscription.)
Haven't users been paying for Features, or entry into cross platform, or all the investments whether in house like Proclaim or buying competitors like Wordsearch to some level all along?
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:Or take a "true" software feature like instant Light/Dark mode switching. Due to the complexity of our platform, this took significant developer effort to implement across all UI components. This is something we might have traditionally sold as part of a Full Feature Upgrade every two years. Because subscription provides incremental revenue for us now, we were able to launch that to subscribers early as a perk (instead of holding it back till Fall). When we did that, we received a number of complaints saying (paraphrasing) that it should have been implemented that way from the beginning and that it should be given away free to all L10 users today. That would be nice, I agree! But we can't pay our developers today with the sales revenue from two years ago. So this leads to a number of unsatisfying possibilities: (1) don't include Dark Mode in L10 at all, until it can be completely "finished" to avoid complaints about shipping incomplete features; (2) ship features in phases, but those phases have to ship two years apart because every two years is the only time we can sell new things; (3) charge more for the Logos 10 Full Feature Set for the promise of things that might come later but haven't even been started yet; (4) develop expensive software features with no business plan for how we'll recoup our investment and then give them away for free; (5) cut costs, lay off our software engineering teams, and slow development to a crawl.
None of us wants any of those options. (#1 and #2 are closest to what we do today, and speaking personally I want to avoid #5 as much as possible 😆)
I have stated that I understand those that would like to see it outside the paywall, when you have discussed the amount of programming it took, I can understand your point as well - I personally could care less about dark mode on PC whether instant or restart, so either way it wouldn't be a selling point for me personally.
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:We believe subscription is a good way to solve this problem. We can fund ongoing development on the software and be highly motivated to be very responsive to our users. If the subscription isn't delivering value (by solving problems our customers have), then they will cancel the subscription. We want to have a mutually beneficial relationship where you see the benefit of subscribing and we win your business every month.
And.... software development funding is hindered in what way by continuing the traditional purchase option for those who are not interested in and those who will not subscribe? Wouldn't having as many avenues of funding be the MOST beneficial?
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:GaoLu said:Subscribe so you get "features" 2 years earlier? What...new, sparkling gadgets? What about fixing what we want, that lies unfinished?
And, even better, we don't have to come up with a list of "new sparkling gadgets" every two years to make a big splash and sell upgrades. We can focus more on the core experience (like Dark Mode) and usability and performance and other things that users tell us they want but are really hard to sell as "new in Logos 11!".
At this point, you're probably saying "yes, yes, I've heard all the arguments for subscription before, you're not telling me anything new" 😀
Where does that leave us for customers who like the old model of buying perpetual licenses to Logos software features? I don't know exactly; we don't yet have a final answer on that. What I can say is that we're reading every single post and listening to all the feedback. Thanks for continuing to engage in the forums, and we will share more information as our plans evolve.
Pretty much [:D] And not a single good one against continuing the traditional upgrade as an option to those who have no desire in a subscription.... We have heard a lot about sustainability.... Again, how does leaving money on the table or pushing away long time customers benefit long term sustainability? As a side note, not that you are saying this, but with all the arguments for subscription and many statements.... I'm beginning to wonder if I should be more concerned about the viability of Logos going forward....
All the bits and pieces of vagueness, the Glassdoor posts, a PE being involved and the fact that it is being presented as such a difficult decision or process to keep paying customers as such.... It's really concerning.... Add in the fact that the customer service from those involved has been limited.... I keep going back to the days where I could trust Logos to be involved with me as a customer.
You and Phil are excluded from this sentiment - but I am used to the days when both of you and Bob himself would be involved with any customer issue.... I had requested a few times a call at the convenience of Mark (since it was his post(s) that brought the most questions - over two months later I was contacted by one of the two I mentioned - not so much as an email from the person I requested when I called in for assistance....
So when some of us hear that we can trust Logos..... Well the game is no longer the same, nor many of the players involved - that trust has to be earned and the handling of this situation hasn't really done so with many of us.
As always I do appreciate engaging with you and am thankful for our interactions through the years
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:And not a single good one against continuing the traditional upgrade as an option to those who have no desire in a subscription.... We have heard a lot about sustainability.... Again, how does leaving money on the table or pushing away long time customers benefit long term sustainability?
At the risk of stating the obvious, it's not sustainable to commit to an unbounded amount of future work (updating features to be compatible with new hardware and software, making improvements, running the servers, managing security patches, etc.) for a one-time payment (i.e., a perpetual feature license) now.
Sure, selling perpetual feature licenses for Logos 11 would bring in revenue (one time) in 2024. But it would create the ongoing liability and expense of maintaining those features in 2025, and 2026, and 2027, and ... "forever".
We're not just thinking about the fourth quarter results. We're trying to build a sustainable business that's here to serve you 5, 10, 15 years from now. (And no, the business isn't in trouble. We're doing well. We just want to be sure we're around for the long term.)
If you're asking to buy a feature for a one-time payment of $19.99 now but expect all future updates for free (including the port to Neuralink devices that we'll all be wearing in the 2030s? 😀) ... well, that sounds like a great deal but I just don't know how to make the numbers pencil out.
(And before you say, "yes but you promised that we'll always have access to our books and you sell those as a one-time purchase", there are completely different economies of scale going on there. We have hundreds of thousands of ebooks to amortise the cost across, and a mature codebase that doesn't need many updates and has already been optimized for portability to different platforms.)
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