Hi all,
I'm back with a few more updates on subscription. Today, I'm talking through some of the perks we're thinking about for launch this fall.
As always, I welcome your thoughts and constructive feedback.—B
I appreciate you taking the time for an update, I wish there was more encouragement for myself as a user personally. As it sounds as though logos is firmly committed to a monthly or subscription-based option, even for what you're calling forever, access. Forever access, based on your comments I'm assuming is what we call perpetual license.
It is disappointing, that there has not been an announcement that we will have the same option to just purchase outright rather than having to subscribe for 2 years to earn features that we may or may not be interested in depending on what is considered cloud-based and AI based.
A question that does come up in relation to this, is along the lines of Mark Barnes comments in previous posts. Mark had suggested that there will be discounted annual options for subscription and quite possibly biannual options at a discount for the subscription. So my question is this, will those discounted bi-annual subscriptions or discounted annual subscriptions apply to what you're calling forever? Access to the features we have if we stop subscribing after 24 months? If so, then why not just offer the purchase of the features for the same price as the 2-month discounted subscription?
I guess we'll get more next month. But off the top of my calculating head, the breakeven subscription (for me) is going to be 10 bucks a month. That's the Full-Feature divided by the 'retain-access' of 24 months (new features, previously dynamic-priced). I don't need more free books, nor rewards, nor tiny percentage offs. I'm not very perky ... and I assume, the perks are strictly launch-only.
Now, based strictly on rumor, the content in my above breakeven (all the features) are likely to be the 'max' subscription. Or multiples of my current breakeven. I can see that being great for Bill. But not for me.
Essentially, Bill needs to deliver multiples of value, compared to the past. Not likely.
So .... other Logosians will need to step up to the plate, and fund Logos. We'll await the next message.
ADDED: Crazy me ... it just dawned on me (or maybe listen to the video again). A newbie (smart newbie) can pick up all (that's the question) features in 24 months for maybe $800 or so ($35 x 24). Now, an oldie (me) would spend the same (same subscription) and end up with considerably less (I already 'own' most). Now ignoring 'fairness', the model really turns on lots of smart newbies.
Thank you, Bill, for this update and for your team's ongoing efforts to enhance the Logos software. It's commendable that you're actively seeking ways to provide value to your customers while also ensuring the long-term sustainability of the platform.
Your approach of sharing updates and welcoming constructive feedback demonstrates a commitment to transparency and customer engagement, which is greatly appreciated.
Your forward-thinking approach is crucial for keeping Logos at the forefront of Bible study software. We look forward to learning more about how these changes will benefit both new and existing users while ensuring the platform's continued growth and innovation.
Thank you again for keeping the community informed and involved in this process.
Thank you sir. As an old/current Faithlife Connect subscriber I am still waiting to be converted over to the new system. I would love to hear more on that!
Appreciate your time.
So it's shifted from what we thought we were promised (Mark promised we'd keep our books and features we already had with L10, and bristled if we questioned that).
Bill says now, to keep the features you had in L10, you have to have subscribed for a minimum of 24 months (3:05-3:48), with the "Legacy Fallback License". So those of us who will not subscribe will lose our features we've paid for (or so it sounds). And even if we do subscribe for the minimum required period to keep them, after we drop the subscription we can't use any features which use the cloud (which is most of them).
As I suspected when this first dropped, the promise to let us keep our purchases would be a hollow one if they pulled the features which make use of those resources/books.
the perks
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
So it's shifted from what we thought we were promised (Mark promised we'd keep our books and features we already had with L10, and bristled if we questioned that). Bill says now, to keep the features you had in L10, you have to have subscribed for a minimum of 24 months (3:05-3:48), with the "Legacy Fallback License". So those of us who will not subscribe will lose our features we've paid for (or so it sounds). And even if we do subscribe for the minimum required period to keep them, after we drop the subscription we can't use any features which use the cloud (which is most of them). As I suspected when this first dropped, the promise to let us keep our purchases would be a hollow one if they pulled the features which make use of those resources/books. the perks "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
I think he meant the legacy fallback is going to be whatever features you have access to during those 24 months that you’ll be able to keep them except the ones that are cloud-base. Your original features that you own right now they are yours regardless.
DAL
I think he meant the legacy fallback is going to be whatever features you have access to during those 24 months that you’ll be able to keep them except the ones that are cloud-base. Your original features that you own right now they are yours regardless. DAL
I listened to it at least five times to (hopefully) hear something like that. He didn't say it.
And again, if they aren't including cloud-based features in the Legacy Fallback License, what makes anyone think they'll stay active for non-subscribers?
Doc has better ears than mine ... Logos 10. And Mark was encouraging Logos 10 Full Features ... so people could lose them in 24 months. Well, anyway.
I think he meant the legacy fallback is going to be whatever features you have access to during those 24 months that you’ll be able to keep them except the ones that are cloud-base. Your original features that you own right now they are yours regardless. DAL I listened to it at least five times to (hopefully) hear something like that. He didn't say it. And again, if they aren't including cloud-based features in the Legacy Fallback License, what makes anyone think they'll stay active for non-subscribers?
Since no one will be forced to subscribe, you can still use Logos 10 full features. Why subscribe to lose something you already own? Maybe he didn’t word it correctly. If it means what you think it means then people won’t subscribe, so it makes no sense. DAL
So it's shifted from what we thought we were promised (Mark promised we'd keep our books and features we already had with L10, and bristled if we questioned that). Bill says now, to keep the features you had in L10, you have to have subscribed for a minimum of 24 months (3:05-3:48), with the "Legacy Fallback License". So those of us who will not subscribe will lose our features we've paid for (or so it sounds).
Bill says now, to keep the features you had in L10, you have to have subscribed for a minimum of 24 months (3:05-3:48), with the "Legacy Fallback License". So those of us who will not subscribe will lose our features we've paid for (or so it sounds).
Bill and I are saying the same thing. This is what Bill said in the video (starting at 3:00):
For those of you who own Logos 10 you'll be eligible for a perk we call Legacy fallback license... Unlike most subscriptions, this perk will allow you to retain access to your features from your subscription that don't rely on the cloud or AI after you've been subscribed for 24 months, even if you cancel the subscription.
Regardless of whether you subscribe or not, you will keep features you've already paid for.
The fallback license will allow you to additionally keep any features you haven't previously paid for but were in the subscription (except Cloud/AI features).
Just because we don't put a feature in the Legacy Fallback License doesn't mean for a minute that we'll take it away from existing customers.
So it's shifted from what we thought we were promised (Mark promised we'd keep our books and features we already had with L10, and bristled if we questioned that). Bill says now, to keep the features you had in L10, you have to have subscribed for a minimum of 24 months (3:05-3:48), with the "Legacy Fallback License". So those of us who will not subscribe will lose our features we've paid for (or so it sounds). Bill and I are saying the same thing. This is what Bill said in the video (starting at 3:00): For those of you who own Logos 10 you'll be eligible for a perk we call Legacy fallback license... Unlike most subscriptions, this perk will allow you to retain access to your features from your subscription that don't rely on the cloud or AI after you've been subscribed for 24 months, even if you cancel the subscription. Regardless of whether you subscribe or not, you will keep features you've already paid for. The fallback license will allow you to additionally keep any features you haven't previously paid for but were in the subscription (except Cloud/AI features).
I knew it! Send me the link to Logos Max early access, so I can subscribe too!
Ok, this is getting odd. If you don't own L10 (whatever that is ... any L10?), then you're not eligible for the Legacy Fallback (LFB) perk for unowned featues during the subscription? Or the LFB is only for L10 owners ... during launch. Or ...
I think DAL better check the price first.
I listened to it a sixth time, and I still don't hear the boss saying that.
But I'll assume it's true for now since you say that's what he means.
That begs a question: If the cost of getting the new features is a 24-month subscription (say, $10 a month for 24 months...$240), why not make them available for the same price ($240 in this example) as a one-time fee? Then you'd have the same revenue and you wouldn't have alienated a whole busload of your formerly loyal customers by imposing a subscription model on them. [:(]
If you don't own L10 (whatever that is ... any L10?), then you're not eligible for the Legacy Fallback (LFB) perk for unowned featues during the subscription? Or the LFB is only for L10 owners ... during launch. Or ...
We've not yet announced what perks will be available to those who DON'T own Logos 10. That will come soon.
If the cost of getting the new features is a 24-month subscription (say, $10 a month for 24 months...$240), why not make them available for the same price ($240 in this example) as a one-time fee? Then you'd have the same revenue and you wouldn't have alienated a whole busload of your formerly loyal customers by imposing a subscription model on them.
Because that way, you wouldn't get any of the subscription benefits at all. It's much better for you to pay for two years of the subscription up front* and then immediately cancel the autorenewal. That way, you get all the benefits of the fallback license PLUS two years' worth of additional subscription perks and benefits for no additional cost.
* I'm not 100% sure we'll be able to offer paying two years upfront because our subscription engine doesn't support that yet, but we're hoping to make that possible by launch. It will certainly be possible to pay for one year upfront.
I agree. He doesn't say that. This video was about perks, not about restating a policy we've stated again and again and again. But Bill does NOT say you will LOSE features you've already paid for because that is not the policy.
This video was about perks, not about restating a policy we've stated again and again and again.
he specifically said we'd keep features we had in L10 "after subscribing for 24 months."
But he didn't say that. As I wrote earlier, what Bill said was:
I appreciate the mention of Logos 10 ownership might have been slightly confusing, but Bill is NOT saying you have to subscribe for 24 months to keep features you had in L10. He's explicitly saying that the 24 months qualification is to retain features from your subscription. I guess for extra clarity he could have added "to retain features from your subscription that you don't already own". That last part was implied by Bill, but I'm happy to make it explicit here.
so it might be helpful to keep saying some stuff in these updates that you've already said...stuff that matters to those of us who think we've been told to grab our ankles I know y'all don't get it, but BOHICA is *exactly* how the imposed subscription model feels to some of us long-time customers.)
I had to look BOHICA up!
I get it, I really do. I'm a customer too, with a big investment into Logos features and resources that I don't want to lose.
And fair enough. You're right that we should keep repeating the key promises. They do matter. So, just for you [:)]:
Your investment in Logos is safe, and you’ll always be able to access your books for free. We’re 100% committed to continuing to provide free software to ensure you’ll always be able to read and interact with your books.
You won’t lose your existing feature sets when we move to subscription. If you’ve already invested in Logos Feature Sets, you won’t lose them when the next version of Logos launches. You’ll continue to be able to use the features you’ve paid for. And if you ever cancel a subscription, you’ll fall back to the features that you’ve previously purchased.
We’re not going to stop selling books and libraries. We love selling books as much as you love buying them, and we don’t foresee a time when we’ll stop selling books and curated libraries. Our subscriptions contain a limited number of books to ensure the features work correctly, but they aren’t intended to replace the high-quality curated libraries that we’re continuing to offer.
No one will be forced to subscribe to Logos in the future. Unlike most software companies, we make our latest software available to everyone. Even if the last feature set you bought was Logos 4 in 2009 (or even Logos 1 in 1991!), you’ll continue to receive free app updates ensuring you can use Logos with future operating systems and books. You’ll even continue to receive bug fixes for free, too. Of course, if you’re not a subscriber, the latest features and upgrades will not be enabled for you, but you’ll be using the same core software as all our other customers.
So no, subscription is not going to be a great thing for everybody. The present plan would have to change a lot in order to begin to appeal to me; I do not anticipate that happening. In all likelihood, when this rolls out finally, Logos is likely to get $0 instead of what I normally happily spend at upgrade time.
Hi, Bill.
Thanks for the update. I am glad to hear about the "fallback license". Two quick questions for now.
1) If I am a Logos 10 owner and already subscribed to Logos Pro, are these months counting toward the 24 months needed for the "fallback license?
2) I understand the AI features being tied to a subscription, but will you still consider letting us "fallback" customers keep at least some of them? I was a little surprised by adding new cloud features to the exclusions. If AI and Cloud features are not included, it could certainly lower the incentive, especially if most of the new features fall under these two categories. I hope there will be new desktop features as well.
Thanks in advance.
Steve
I just stumbled on to this video as I do not read the forums very often. I am somewhat concerned where this is going but will have to see what happens. I do hope some of this is documented somewhere in an email or a separate Logos webpage and people are advised of the changes. After all we get bombarded almost daily by email with promotions surely something can be advised formally.
Colin
