Logos 11 and accessibility for screen readers
I was reading the info about Logos 11, and it all sounds quite wonderful—for sighted people. I am a user of the JAWS screen reader and I have been using Logos since 2007. I have been asking for improvements for screen readers since 2011. If sighted people had been making these kinds of requests without response, it would be unconscionable.
A few years ago, I wrote an email to Bob Pritchett and I got a response that he was no longer with Logos and would forward my email to whomever should receive it. I wonder if that was ever done.
Is there anyone at Logos who is sensitive to this need and who actually wants to do something about it? If so, please communicate and I will be happy to share some practical ways that screen reader accessibility can be improved. I am not just asking for things with no resources to give to you.
Sarah Blake LaRose, D.Min.
Logos user since 2007
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Hi Sarah,
We're conscious that we have a lot to do to improve accessibility in Logos. In an application of the size of Logos, there is always more that needs to be done.
We have invested quite a lot of effort over the last year in improving accessibility, especially its compatibility with screen readers. Our focus has been on the web app, but some of the improvements we have made there to individual tools have also found their way back to the desktop app. Accessibility has also been very much in our minds when developing new features. For example, the dynamic toolbar currently in beta should work better with screen readers than the existing toolbar.
What potential improvement to the desktop app do you think would make the biggest difference to those who rely on screen readers?
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Thanks Mark. There are two very easy things that would help. One is being sure that all controls are labeled. In Logos 10 there are several buttons that are not labeled. I have had to test them and memorize what they do. The other thing that would help is to have accessibility on when the app is installed. It is very hard for a person who needs accessibility to get to the place where they need to issue the command to turn it on without help. These improvements would let us know you are listening. The major improvement that we would like is the ability to access the reading pane fully with screen reader. Currently we can have it read aloud, but we cannot keep our place or actually interact meaningfully with the text. This keeps us from clicking on links, selecting and copying texts, creating our own sermons, etc. Regarding the web app, I honestly will not use it. There were so many unlabeled buttons and it was so unwieldy that I found it unhelpful. Also, I don't want to have to be online to use my library. I appreciate the attempt to build alternate accessibility, but please build it in to the app.
Sarah Blake LaRose, D.Min.
Logos user since 2007
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Thanks for your on-going advocacy and patience, Sarah! As Mark mentioned, we have made a good deal of effort over the last 12 months to improve the accessibility of the web app including adding button labels and ensuring pages have a meaningful structure to help screen readers.
A few years ago, I wrote an email to Bob Pritchett and I got a response that he was no longer with Logos and would forward my email to whomever should receive it. I wonder if that was ever done.
I was on the email forward list from Bob, so I can assure you he followed through. In fact, your feedback was one of many factors that led to the work mentioned above. I'm sorry to hear that you have not benefited personally due to not using the web app but your advocacy has likely helped many other users.
The other thing that would help is to have accessibility on when the app is installed. It is very hard for a person who needs accessibility to get to the place where they need to issue the command to turn it on without help.
Which settings are you referring to here? I'd love to help solve this if possible. We have a "first run dialog" that would be the perfect place for this if we can identify the command you're talking about.
Regarding the web app, I honestly will not use it. There were so many unlabeled buttons and it was so unwieldy that I found it unhelpful.
Again, I hope we've improved that. If you run into more unlabeled buttons or unwieldy page structures, we'd love to hear that.
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Dear Sarah et al,
First of all, Sarah, I'm very grateful that you are constantly pushing to bring the accessibility of Logos into the spotlight. I am blind myself and will soon start studying Theology, and would certainly see the added value of Logos for preparing sermons, etc., were it not for the accessibility problems that prevent me from investing currently.
In addition to what Sarah stated, I would personally appreciate it if the accessibility page on the wiki contains up to date information. The fact that this page was last updated nine years ago does not inspire any confidence in me as a potential new user.0 -
Hello again. I have always been told that once Logos starts I need to type set accessibility to yes in order to turn accessibility on. It has been a little while since I installed a brand-new Logos so it would be lovely if this was no longer needed. I'm certainly happy iv the web app is helpful to others. I continue to consider this a poor solution. I am a professor and am trying to teach sighted students to use Logos. It is really hard to do this when I cannot use the products myself. I am sure that you can imagine that students feel much more happy to use something they see their own professor using! In fact, this is the reason why I started using Logos. I hope this is meaningful to you as you consider what may be good reasons to invest in further accessibility improvements in the future.
Sarah Blake LaRose, D.Min.
Logos user since 2007
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
Accessibility has also been very much in our minds when developing new features. For example, the dynamic toolbar currently in beta should work better with screen readers than the existing toolbar.
I’m really glad you shared this. I generally prefer tighter UI with icons instead of text labels and have been less enthusiastic about the new toolbar, but if it improves accessibility, then that’s a great reason to change it.
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Jonathan Huber said:Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
Accessibility has also been very much in our minds when developing new features. For example, the dynamic toolbar currently in beta should work better with screen readers than the existing toolbar.
I’m really glad you shared this. I generally prefer tighter UI with icons instead of text labels and have been less enthusiastic about the new toolbar, but if it improves accessibility, then that’s a great reason to change it.
It looks like I spoke too soon on this [:$]. The accessibility of the new toolbar on web is significantly improved over the old one, but today we discovered a serious bug in our accessibility implementation on desktop. So, until that's fixed (it's very high on our priority list), my claim was premature.
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How do I keep my Logos from updating? I am (obviously) very concerned about this.
Sarah Blake LaRose, D.Min.
Logos user since 2007
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How do I keep my Logos from updating? I am (obviously) very concerned about this.
The new toolbar that is currently in beta testing will only ship to subscribers, so if you don't plan to subscribe, you needn't worry. If you do subscribe, we'll have a temporary workaround in place until we can fix the bug.
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