Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos

. The subscription is indeed about access to features.

Although ... the (apparently) new subscrition feature will allow turning off subscription features!  How's that for subscription sophistication!

Which also implies that at some point in the future folks on the legacy fallback plan will not be able to "purchase" new resources.

They are never going to stop selling licenses to resources. That would not make any sense whatsoever. What concerns me though is that they may start Leasing those same resources as a subscription, which would give new users, a much better deal than the longtime loyal customers got by paying for it outright.

I can see how you might interpret "Legacy" and "Fallback" in that way. These words, however, are being directed at a general audience, not only to those in IT. Legacy does communicate that the feature set is outdated, and that is what will happen to those with a Legacy Fallback License. The feature set that they own will over time become more and more outdated, in the sense of never having access to the new features. Fallback in this case simply means that if plans change and you cancel the subscription, you will fall back to the features present in that license. This is a perfectly appropriate use of the word in common language.

I disagree.

If FL said:

"The current version of Logos is going to be the long-term stable version of this software. This software will be maintained into the future. Existing and future resources will be accessible using this software. We are, however, going to stop numbering versions. Instead of having numbered versions you can purchase, all new features will only be accessible as subscriptions."

I would say, "let's see what these new features might be and I'll think about it."

What FL is saying, instead, is:

"We are in the last few hours of your ability to purchase Logos 10, which will then be discontinued. In its place there will be new software which can only be purchased on a subscription basis. As a service to our legacy users, this subscription only software will support a fallback mode which will be able to access all the resources legacy users might happen to have purchased in the past. We pinky promise this legacy fallback mode is a permanent feature of the software replacing Logos 10. We do not know what features will be available in this legacy fallback mode."

These are completely different ways of phrasing what might, right now, be the same thing. The terms legacy and fallback, however, clearly contradict the pinky promise of those modes being permanent. Experience, likewise, tells me the legacy fallback will sunset at some point in the future. There might not be a sunset plan right now, hence the pinky promises--but, given the way businesses run, there will be a sunset at some point in the future.

I don't think using "outdated" helps your case here. "Outdated" means "all new plumbing is PEX, so you cannot be a plumber if all you own is the tools to do sweat soldering."

I once worked with a man who was wise in the ways of advertising and corporate language use. At the time, I drank a lot of a particular brand of soda (I no longer drink soda). The soda's label included the words: "Flavor aged in oak barrels." He saw those words and said, "in other words, the flavorings used to create this drink pass through an oak barrel for at least a few moments somewhere in the factory where they create this drink." Being naive, I thought he was being cynical.

Later, I discovered he was correct. This soda company took the language of alcoholic beverages and used it to imply one thing, but there was wiggle room for it to mean something else. I have, over my years in IT, including a stint in marketing, observed his cynicism is and was fully justified. This language is not accidental. There was a meeting someplace when different wordings and different ways of describing what is happening here, were considered. There was a white board involved. There were probably sticky notes on the white board. There was brainstorming, etc. There were probably arguments over the different meanings of the words.

There were probably long emails, and people who were frustrated because they saw that at least some users would react the way I am. Those people were overruled.

Legacy fallback was the preferred way of describing this for a reason. If you want to believe legacy was chosen to describe something solid, rather than something old (and to be replaced), feel free. I consider this a rather pollyanish view, but my dealing with FL have not caused me to be a fanboy, and hence not to argue to put the most wonderful, positive, glowing meaning on the words they use. 

FL is a company. Companies exist to maximize profit. There's nothing unethical in this, but it means you need to treat the words and processes within the company as working towards maximizing profits. That's not cynical, that's just real life.

[quote]

The Bible software is certainly not being replaced.

The Bible software is being replaced. This is an explicit statement made by FL in multiple ways and multiple places.

They are never going to stop selling licenses to resources. That would not make any sense whatsoever. What concerns me though is that they may start leasing those same resources as a subscription, which would give new users, a much better deal than the longtime loyal customers got by paying for it outright.

When the resource file format is changed to support some new feature only available in the subscription version of the software, I expect resources in that new format will not be available to legacy fallback users. At some point, I expect we can buy all the new resources we want to, but they will only be accessible through the subscription version of the software.

I don't see how or why anyone would expect anything different.

The Bible software is being replaced. This is an explicit statement made by FL in multiple ways and multiple places.

Being as there are supposedly many places where this explicit statement can be found, would you kindly provide just one?

I am sorry that this process has led you to form assumptions and judgements that are untrue. I understand how this can easily happen. However, I can say with confidence that what is really happening is not at all as bad as what you think is happening.

Russ, it almost sounds like you DON'T WANT to have a future with Logos as a sustainable program, with all your books permanently accessible. I'm definitely not as smart as some of these folks, but I've seen enough from Logos to feel comfortable taking their commitments at face value. 

Here's one example: "If you’ve already purchased Logos packages or feature sets, those are yours to keep—you won’t lose them. You’ll continue to be able to use the features you’ve paid for, regardless of whether you subscribe to the latest version." From their FAQs.

Over and over, in the forums and on the website, Logos has insisted that people won't lose features or resources they currently have now. Why do I believe them? Because, while they are a for-profit company, they are doing something they believe in. Because their handling of WordSearch libraries demonstrated their commitment to a core idea of the company: You can keep your resources forever. 

I was nervous for a bit when they said that sermon features and auto-translate would be subscription features. But a couple hours digging around gave me documented evidence that I would be able to keep it. Auto-translate may be limited for number of queries, but even that was considered - it speaks positively to me. 

I don't see better software options, and I expect the subscription will actually work out better financially for users like me - preaching regularly, a couple thousand invested, and locked in at a discounted price. 

Two scenarios that concern me: 

1. The software becomes so dependent on AI/cloud-based features, I feel compelled to subscribe. But if this happens, it will likely be the reality of my world overall, not just some anomaly from Logos. 
2. Despite my investment in the platform, Logos will creep their prices up unreasonably in the coming months/years, and I will not be able to afford it. Currently, $10-15/month is great (I'm at FFS). $20/month would give me pause, and more than that would make me back out. 

Even with my concerns - some of which align with your rants - I remain flummoxed at how you don't seem to accept the clear statements from Logos that contradict your claims. Here's hoping - for both our sakes! - that I'm right. 

Cheers, 

It would seem it's more accurate to say that the software itself is not being replaced, at least not completely and outright. 

It seems like the feature sets they're selling and their model for selling it are.

Russ, it almost sounds like you DON'T WANT to have a future with Logos as a sustainable program, with all your books permanently accessible. I'm definitely not as smart as some of these folks, but I've seen enough from Logos to feel comfortable taking their commitments at face value. 

Here's one example: "If you’ve already purchased Logos packages or feature sets, those are yours to keep—you won’t lose them. You’ll continue to be able to use the features you’ve paid for, regardless of whether you subscribe to the latest version." From their FAQs.

Over and over, in the forums and on the website, Logos has insisted that people won't lose features or resources they currently have now. Why do I believe them? Because, while they are a for-profit company, they are doing something they believe in. Because their handling of WordSearch libraries demonstrated their commitment to a core idea of the company: You can keep your resources forever. 

I was nervous for a bit when they said that sermon features and auto-translate would be subscription features. But a couple hours digging around gave me documented evidence that I would be able to keep it. Auto-translate may be limited for number of queries, but even that was considered - it speaks positively to me. 

I don't see better software options, and I expect the subscription will actually work out better financially for users like me - preaching regularly, a couple thousand invested, and locked in at a discounted price. 

Two scenarios that concern me: 

1. The software becomes so dependent on AI/cloud-based features, I feel compelled to subscribe. But if this happens, it will likely be the reality of my world overall, not just some anomaly from Logos. 
2. Despite my investment in the platform, Logos will creep their prices up unreasonably in the coming months/years, and I will not be able to afford it. Currently, $10-15/month is great (I'm at FFS). $20/month would give me pause, and more than that would make me back out. 

Even with my concerns - some of which align with your rants - I remain flummoxed at how you don't seem to accept the clear statements from Logos that contradict your claims. Here's hoping - for both our sakes! - that I'm right. 

Cheers, 

You know something, Dru? After I heard about this farewell tour, I analyzed my order history with the company and found that I had spent something like $73 in a little over a year, and I matched that just to get the Silver Feature Package down to a level that I could afford. It may cost more than a subscription right now, but I know the cost won't be on my plate forever.

Don't you think you already have so much at your disposal that subscribing doesn't make sense?

II don't think it's fair to say that programmers need to have an unusual personality;

My experience is that many people who train as programmers and are good at what they do, leave the profession for related positions because they don't have the personality for it. My experience includes teaching for a computer manufacture, programming on equipment from 4 different manufacturers, and managing a large administrative system. But I know from my immediately family that a broader range of skills is now considered programming.

That doesn't seem to make programmers unusual.

There's part of me wondering if the slow response in general has to do with a potential that there is a lack of Fallback eligible features for those who own the FFS already - I hope this is not the case but if the only features eligible are instant dark mode and the new toolbar which seems less than favorable, that isn't very enticing for a sales pitch to long time and power users... Only Logos knows which Features qualify, but most of the new features do seem to be AI and or cloud reliant, which based on the bits of info likely disqualifies them from Fallback,,,,

Honestly, the slow response is simply because the transition to subscription is a whole-company effort, and therefore, some things are bogged down in bureaucracy in a way that's very unusual in Logos. We're generally able to make decisions pretty quickly, and I and others usually get lots of freedom in what we can do and say. But with such a major shift for us, there are more formal processes right now than there would normally be.

And, to be fair, it makes sense. You don't want to get a different answer to the question from different people in the company, and the "bureaucracy" is designed to ensure that something is communicated effectively internally before it's communicated externally. And, while getting an answer to this question is top of my priority list, I have dozens of colleagues with questions other customers are asking them, and I have to be patient and wait my turn because their questions are important, too.

(Which I know doesn't help at all with the "clock" ticking down –  and I'm sorry about that. But that is the reality. I and others have pushed to get the "clock" extended to ensure we can answer that question before the end of the sale, and I'm hopeful that will happen.)

I appreciate the honesty in regards to the bureaucracy that is now holding Logos back from what us "old timers" are used to in many ways.... But, I have to be honest that it does lay a level of concern as a customer, as to how much the bureaucracy can hold the Logos team back from effectively and efficiently marketing not only to new customers, but also remembering the customers that helped build the company through the years.

I hope that the extension you and others are fighting for is honored, else that is a poor start to the "new" era of Logos...

And I really do hope this gets extended until the information is provided, as I've had a potential purchase sitting in my cart for a while waiting for answers.... If it passes without extension, then it's just another sale that Logos misses out on.... (Not to mention one of the separate resources I put in has increased twice already from two dollars and change to four dollars and change now...)

I officially made the leap to logos full features 

I so happy and afraid lol 

I had max subscription 

I think ill notch it back to pro 

what are peoples thoughts ?

If the features included were features you desired and will use - my personal opinion is that it's better to own. If you decide to continue subscribing you'll qualify for the FFS discount as well.

I officially made the leap to logos full features 

I so happy and afraid lol 

I had max subscription 

I think ill notch it back to pro 

what are peoples thoughts ?

I personally think you made a great choice.  Even if you don't subscribe you get to keep the could and AI features you just paid for.  Plus, if you decide to subscribe, you can start with Pro or Max and get a discount on either.  Right now there is nothing extra on the Max plan other than 100 additional books.  Hopefully that will change soon as I would love to see what they consider a Max feature.