Does Logos really want to sell products or just create divisions?

Wow! That's a ton of whitespace.

Remember not to skip a line when in the editor when creating a post.

@TWBeining

Why does Logos block non-subscribers from purchasing new 2025 Logos or 2025 Verbum Resource Packages?

For the same reason they did for Logos 10 or Logos 9 or Logos 8 or Logos 7 or … I suspect it is their way of assuring that there is an account to which to deliver the library. However, I though the requirement was owning a compatible base package not being a subscriber - and that the free version counted as a base package. I've not yet mastered searching on the new forums sufficiently to check.

Nope … need a real subscription if you have L10. And no free test subscription. I've been enjoying shopping Accordance (not to mention the crazy searching on Logos.com).

I was under the impression that if you subscribed and received a "free trial" of the subscription, you could purchase the library, which then was yours to keep when you canceled the subscription.

Thats the "stick" part of the "carrot and stick" strategy 😎

Is Accordance back in the running for "Best Bible software that money can buy" now that Logos cannot be purchased?

And no free test subscription

It looks like there is the option to have a free trial

This was my impression too. 😐️

I don't know why 'we' go over this, month after month. No free trial, if you have L10 FF. I forget if you just have L10. And no, I don't do fake-subscribes like my friends do with Amazon Prime. It's not honest. If FL wanted to offer the packages to non-subscribers, they would. As it stands, I'm 'outside the camp' … and happy.

And since we're repeating, no subscription for a pig-in-a-poke, especially after no pigs in the last 4-6 years (no useful features for myself; no argument for others). And I especially do NOT want FL screwing up my layout with crazy 12-14 'Mores' per window that with drop downs that have to be dropped-up. And yes, there's the discount for the inflated prices. No thank you.

Ok … back to trying to decide on the Encyclopedia of Hebrew (Accordance of course; Logos's is perpetually 'in development', along with screwing up on Tov).

I was trying to remember where I saw @Mark Barnes (Logos) comment on using a free trial to purchase a new base library. Here's the post. Things may have changed since then. 💁‍♂️

Yes … he just left out 'where applicable'. Fine print.

I guess you can always sub for a month, buy a bunch of packages and cancle your sub. Legacy libraries are still on sale, which is the only thing worth buying in packages IMO. Even when I was considering L10 gold, I only wanted 20% of what they were offering. For some reason, I always thought L7-9 were better put together then L10 packages.

Like @DMB has mentioned - some may view the having to "fake" subscribe via Free Trial to be able to purchase as not being honest… Others may have used the "Free Trial" during the Early Access without knowing that they would be excluded from the still to come Library Packages.

While it is true that Library Packages "required" a "Feature Purchase/ownership" or subscription of some type - was it marketed as having to buy the Features to be eligible to buy Libraries - NO - the opposite….

In the past, the Library Packages offered varying levels of included Features - a user did not have to buy a Feature Set first, they were included to some level in the Library Purchase or as stand alone Feature Sets.

My question of the "New Era" is wanting to keep the "requirement" of owning or subscribing to be able to buy a Library of resources when you truly are not able to "buy" the Features any longer. (Yes the LFL may or may not be available in the future, but it only allows limited ownership of "some" features - so the game was changed by Logos… (I do get the goal though…. Punish non-subscribers by limiting access to resource purchases in hopes of forcing them into a subscription)

While I hold out hope that this "New Era" is not going to be as bad as it appears for long term users that have no interest in a subscription plan - my hope is dwindling!

This issue, the unanswered question(s) I have asked multiple times as to why Feature Parity now requires a subscription which I do NOT recall any Feature Parity requiring subscription or additional purchase in the past and the Dynamic Toolbar forced upon users to the detriment of some users layouts and efficient use of the software - it's just looking dreary for the users who don't comply….

DMB said it better than I could:

"I don't know why 'we' go over this, month after month. No free trial, if you have L10 FF. I forget if you just have L10. And no, I don't do fake-subscribes like my friends do with Amazon Prime. It's not honest. If FL wanted to offer the packages to non-subscribers, they would. …"

Prior to this latest rollout, I had upgraded every time Logos introduced a new version since 2011. With the last several versions I've purchased multiple base packages from different traditions. This time I've bought nothing. The subscription only policy is absolutely FaithLife's business decision to make, but in my case they've left money on the table. Before the subscription requirement was announced, I fully intended to do a full feature upgrade and one or more base packages.

@Frank Sauer I don't feel dreary. Air is fresh 'outside the camp', and the credit card empty … free, free, free (ok, a few almost free books).

But unfortunately Accordance has some (expensive) volumes I didn't know they had. So, maybe this is just great luck, budget-wise.

But I REALLY feel for new customers and those already committed but still building. It's not going to be pretty. I REALLY enjoyed my time with Logos. It was like Christmas, all year. But, company ownership won't be too flexible, as Bob was.

This is true - us cast outsiders have saved some $$$ Not to mention the experience of testing other options, where we may be more desirable as customers and appreciated….

If memory serves correctly, I think it was Logos 5 or 6 (maybe 7) can't remember which for sure, you had to buy the features and book packages separately. You could choose to buy features alone, you could buy book packages alone, or you could buy them together in any configuration you wanted. (Think smallest features and biggest book packages, or vise-versa.)

While I do remember this caused some confusion, (and we all know that Faithlife/Logos would never cause confusion) it could be done. So it is not unprecedented to think or even ask that they could do this.

I agree. I don't think this was the best move. This year I've subscribed but not bought a library. I can easily imagine myself wanting to do the opposite. I'm fully up to date on features through L10. I would have been unhappy if I'd been unable to buy books.

Remember that Mark Barnes reminded us that this is NOT a change in practice. And, for long as I can recall, we have been able to buy features without a library although it was more hidden that in recent years. Only Logos has the sales figures to determine what the effect of moving to subscriptions has been. I do expect a few more tweaks to the programs but . . .

I haven’t bought a library yet either, which is a first for me. At this stage I will likely see what is on offer with the new packages in the new year.

Yes. I was unaware of it previously, I guess because I always bought all the features with each new release except for briefly while subscribed to Logos Now. I'm sure they have their reasons, but I never understand people saying "No" to money in situations like this. If I wanted to buy a new package of books but not subscribe because I already have plenty of features (most of which I rarely if ever use), why should that be a problem? I would definitely have been annoyed if I'd ever encountered that.

That is the major point that is looked past when this subject is discussed - the "this is how it's always been" changed in the eyes of some users, when Logos decided to change how it's always been…. When you make major decisions based on financial viability, then tell customers we don't want your money unless you subscribe - it comes off very contradictory…

My guess is 'subscription' HAS to WORK. And not to keep the company afloat. They can't fail yet again. This goes back many moons. And Mark's comment ignores the obvious … he doesn't SELL features anymore (outside his 'legacy' thing to molify hold-outs … not their original plan by the way).

But two more days to decide on Accordance targets … gee … I don't have an Accordance subscription …. what will I do?!

Just do the same thing I do. Just buy it, I don't need no stinking subscription on Accordance!

I have to say, I can't disagree with this - there are times it seems that the "HAS to WORK" takes priority over customers…. But this is the "New Era" so - maybe one of the defining points of the New Era is leaving the "old guard" of faithful customers who don't "comply" out of the loop….

I guess that I should just give up on simple questions being given a professional answer or maybe the ignored questions and ignored emails are payback for pushing back and fighting for what eventually became the LFL….

Maybe things will improve for those of us who don't wear those special Logos glasses - if not, like you pointed to in the other post, it has been a relief to the wallet…. Even the cell phone companies become responsive to long time customers when they think they may be losing them because the new customers get the attention - doesn't seem that way here….

So there is a Bible Software that can still be purchased…… 🤔

Two thumbs up 👍️👍️

Every new release there are customers who are not interested in purchasing. Fine, no big deal. Those customers were always unable to purchase the newest libraries. Also no big deal. There are plenty of legacy libraries to choose from and other sales to take advantage of. Eventually the 2025 libraries will also become legacy libraries.

It's understandable to me that they have always wanted to push features. Why invest in features if people are not going to buy them? But how can you incentivize customers to spend a premium on Logos books if not for the features?

Is this not possible? Purchase a 2025 Verbum library from verbum.com and then go to Logo.com and purchase a 2025 Logos Librarary?

For the last few years, FL threw them in, with the packages for free (how I saw it). 'All the towers in the Bible!' and 22 more RI's! Their big-boy features are reference-limited (poor strategic planning; multiple references?, subjects?). Bottom-line: short on app-dev for years. And now, promises of Eden.

What I hear you saying is you haven't been impressed with features lately. Fair enough. No one has pointed me to Eden yet though. If you receive a tip, let me in on it?

So now the response I received from a Customer Service inquiry as to why Feature Parity is a Subscription benefit, I was told that Sermon Manager is iPad only .... Hmmm! Maybe this is a sinking ship .... At least know the product or take the time to research before responding to customers

Yep. And from 'the outside' (and now, 'outside the camp'), my impression is 'staffing'. When asked about hebrew expertise, it was the ECC guy (forgot his name; my fault). Just guessing (yet again), they're having to farm out expertise. Future 'features' are going to have to be lower-end expertise-based. No offense to MJ, but I wonder if liturgical-support is even still do-able.

Frank, are you actually considering Accordance 14 where even the starter version includes all the features for the current sale price of $24.95 and is a perpetual license?

I was actually being a tad bit sarcastic there…. But I was not aware of that information - I may need to check into it…

No. Accordance is dying on the vine in my opinion. They can't even get the promised features from their last update out the door because they don't have but one or maybe 2 programmers left.

The fact that they really aren't charging for features may explain why feature development has hit a stone wall…

In all fairness, @Rick Mansfield (Logos) answered my comment on the 'Accordance' thread (don't know to reference it). Good news.

"I can assure you that Logos is committed to original language studies, and there are individuals on our staff who are well steeped in them. At the recent ETS & SBL conferences in San Diego, I met with a number of publishers, including Brill who publishes the Hebrew resource above, and we will continue to be adding new original language content to the platform. Moreover, this is a growing area as we continue to partner with an increasing number of schools and seminaries."

Well, from the what's trending e-mail they send out each Saturday, you can kind of get a glimpse…

Only 6000 people claimed the subscriber free book, where 33k and 40k claimed the other two free books.

Those numbers would suggest that subscribers are approaching 10% of active Logos users (assuming it is more or less a representative sample), which is about what I would have expected. Obviously still room to improve.

Mark is a great guy, but the "this" he's referring to isn't the core issue that folks are concerned about. This is the first time that users have been required to commit to an ongoing subscription in order to purchase either features or a base package library. We wouldn't be having this discussion if there were a purchase option available for base packages that included some reasonable mixture of features and books.

Yes, but they posted on their X account that they already had 25k subscribers. Those numbers just don't seem to fit. 4 out of every 5 subscribers choose not to get the free book? I know that some users, for one reason or the other, wouldn't be interested in it, but 80% of them?

True enough … but 6000 highly devoted (happily paying) fans at $10 a clip/month (badly generalizing) aren't going to pay much in the way of bills. Six staff maybe, after other expenses.

Yes, but in fairness the financial commitment is quite small. Much smaller, in fact, than in previous releases where one had to purchase all accompanying features without knowing if one actually wanted them or not. One is committing to only one month of subscription, assuming one does not qualify for the free trial.

I get that some people are uncomfortable subscribing for one month and then canceling, but I think objections to this practice kind of miss the point. Logos wants users to at least try out the features they have spent a fortune developing. I think that's fair. Some users will think the features are pretty cool and opt to continue with the subscription, while others will cancel. I don't think one has to internally commit to a full year of subscription in order to feel morally comfortable trying it out for a month.

It seems to me that there has been a distinct change in emphasis for Logos over the last decade and a half. When I first bought Logos, it was all about the resources, and the features were there to help you use them more effectively (search, tagging, notes, etc.) Logos was library software, with the focus very definitely being on the library. That's why the pitch was that we bought the books, and the software was free. Back in the day, buying features wasn't an issue. Over time, the features have become more ambitious and more central to the way Logos is positioned by FaithLife.

That's one reason I'm questioning whether Logos is still a good fit for me, separate and apart from the subscription issue. They're increasingly adding features that I don't care about, and seem to be less focused on the research library aspect of the program.

True, but we're talking a sample size here:

I agree, the features are becoming either more customer-directed (which could be viewed as good, especially pastors). Or just stuff (like the new resource menu).

And just me, I'm mystified why they demand $10 to check out their new baby for L10 FF owners who already gave them a bunch. Admittedly I don't want to risk it, but it is strange. Most of my info about the new baby, is customer complaints/bug-reports.

As I've mentioned, there are multiple reasons that I'm far more comfortable making a well-defined one-time purchase that I am taking on a subscription. Logos is not the only company that I've walked away from because they went subscription only. As for the moral argument, there's a difference between trying something that you're seriously considering for the long-term, and taking up a subscription that you KNOW you're going to drop just to get a short-term advantage. Since I'm not seriously considering a long-term subscription, I'm not going to take advantage of FaithLife by doing the latter.

 I'm mystified why they demand $10 to check out their new baby for L10 FF owners who already gave them a bunch.

@DMB Right? Why exclude L10 FF owners from the free trial? That one's over my head; I'm clearly not smart enough to understand the complex number crunching behind that decision.