Support Users Who Don't Want AI and/or Subscriptions

Ryan Schildroth
Ryan Schildroth Member Posts: 67 ✭✭✭

I will be posting my message to Logos Customer Service. The reply I received, which was courteous, asked me to start a discussion here, so here it goes.

My Message:

Let me start on a positive note: I have been a Logos user for more than 20 years. I remember when the Mac version was first released. I have integrated Logos into my regular study habits. There has been much profit. Thank you for providing such a useful app. 

Now for some constructive criticism. Ever since the new version with AI was released, banners and ads have been invading the app. I understand that the business model is changing. I remain unconvinced that AI has a substantive place in Bible study. I personally resent the constant pressure to subscribe. I already have a sizable investment in my library and I would like uncluttered access to it. I am well aware of the desire you have for me to subscribe. If I want to, I will. Until then, please remove the ads from the app I have invested in. There are plenty of free apps that I could use if I wanted less screen space to work in. Same thing with the floating insight button. At least make it easy to disable. I do not want it.

Please take this feedback seriously. You are at risk of alienating customers who can’t or won’t pony up for a subscription. 

Their reply:

Thank you so much for the time you have spent with us, we really appreciate it.

I understand your concerns regarding ads and the floating insight button in the Logos app. Unfortunately, we do not have a way to remove ads or disable the insight button permanently.  Your feedback is valuable, and we appreciate your long-term support and investment in our platform. 

I will be reporting this, and it would be really helpful for us if you could please post about this at There was an error displaying this embed.

Mobile.jpg Desktop.png

(screenshots from mobile and desktop apps with annoying ads)

I can only assume when they say that "we do not have a way to remove ads or disable the insight button" that the we is Customer Service. OK. But certainly the code writers who put them in can take them back out or make them less obtrusive. PLEASE DO IT!

I may be alone in this. But I doubt it. I have paid (handsomely) for a product. I do not want the new product. So respect the history and preserve future resource sales by not chasing me away. I have already become a second-class citizen by not being a subscriber. Not a great business decision, in my opinion.

M1 MacBook Pro (2020)

iPad Air 4th Gen

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Comments

  • Neal Cook
    Neal Cook Member Posts: 16 ✭✭

    I have no problem with Logos promoting its products and services. If it will help to maintain and improve its existing services and products, and help provide new ones, I say keep it up. BTW, I just ignore the ads.

  • DMM
    DMM Member Posts: 297 ✭✭✭

    The only way ads should ever be shown is if you are using completely free stuff. If you've purchased anything at all, then you should be able to access that content without seeing an ad.

    I think Logos is going to find these ads are going to turn more and more people away.

  • Ryan Schildroth
    Ryan Schildroth Member Posts: 67 ✭✭✭

    I appreciate a different perspective, although I obviously take a different view. The ads are a new thing since the last version dropped. I think it reflects a very different business approach with which I disagree (AI infrastructure requires ongoing revenue streams, i.e. subscriptions). They have always used their web site and more traditional advertising in the past. No issue there. I just don't want it in the product I paid for. Advertise to potential new users!

    Are you a subscriber? I am curious if that has any impact on your opinion.

    M1 MacBook Pro (2020)

    iPad Air 4th Gen

  • EastTN
    EastTN Member Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭

    @Ryan Schildroth captures my view well:

    I appreciate a different perspective, although I obviously take a different view. The ads are a new thing since the last version dropped. I think it reflects a very different business approach with which I disagree (AI infrastructure requires ongoing revenue streams, i.e. subscriptions). They have always used their web site and more traditional advertising in the past. No issue there. I just don't want it in the product I paid for. Advertise to potential new users!

    Traditional advertising through emails, websites, and promotions is great. But it's frustrating for a product you've paid for to start taking on the feel of an ad-supported app.

    Are you a subscriber? I am curious if that has any impact on your opinion.

    For what it's worth, I'm not a subscriber. But I'm more than happy to pay for an upgrade to gain access to new features. (Before this most recent move to a subscription model, I had purchased every new version back to 2011.)

  • Mark Barnes (Logos)
    Mark Barnes (Logos) Administrator, Logos Employee Posts: 2,017
    edited May 21

    Thanks for the thoughtful – it’s clear this is something many of you care deeply about, and I appreciate the way you’re sharing feedback.

    Our aim with subscription messaging is not to turn Logos into an “ad-supported” product. Instead, we’re trying something new: where a feature is part of a subscription, we'll now sometimes offer a limited version to all users. We're doing this to give everyone a taste of what’s possible and let them decide if the full version is worth it. We hoped this would be a helpful middle ground: useful functionality for non-subscribers, and clearer visibility into what a subscription includes. We started this with Smart Bible Search in version 40, and most people appreciated that.

    That said, I hear you. If you’ve made a significant investment in Logos, even without a subscription, you shouldn’t feel like a second-class user. And if the messaging is getting in the way of your study, especially in areas you’ve already paid for, that matters.

    Usually, these messages only appear if you engage with the feature, and that's optional. This is an exception: the banner you mentioned here appears even if you're trying to highlight some text, for example, and can’t be turned off. I can see that could be frustrating. I'm already discussing with the team how we can improve this, given the feedback in this and other threads. We want to respect the experience of long-time, non-subscribing customers, particularly those who’ve already made a substantial investment.

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22

    Mark, your answer is so interesting:

    • Logos is a study tool, kind of like in the college library. It has no place in study as worship ( the Word).
    • Any concerns are inconvenience concerns (bothers the user, makes them feel less than others).

    Just looking at how the new staff rationalizes their decision process. I do remember Rosie's opinion.

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • Mark Barnes (Logos)
    Mark Barnes (Logos) Administrator, Logos Employee Posts: 2,017

    I think you're reading much too much into what I didn't say. I try to be focused with my comments on this forum. The original question was about Bible study, and I replied accordingly. Had it been about worship, I would have responded differently.

  • Ryan Schildroth
    Ryan Schildroth Member Posts: 67 ✭✭✭

    Thank you for your reply. To be honest, I have not used any AI features in Logos and don’t anticipate doing so in the near future. I want to treat it carefully and understand it more before jumping in. In my view, Logos is a super-portable electronic library and study note-taking system. That’s what I want it to be.

    Please do make the AI test drive opt-in (or at least make it opt-out!). I think it would be completely appropriate to highlight new capabilities in release notes or banners during the update process and to invite users in. Or do a periodic “full preview” users could do.

    One thing I noticed in your reply was the term “non-subscribing users”, and that is the class system I am feeling. How about “standard users” and “subscribed users” as a way of identifying customers by a positive attribute instead of a negative one?

    Thanks again.

    M1 MacBook Pro (2020)

    iPad Air 4th Gen

  • DAL
    DAL Member Posts: 10,939 ✭✭✭

    Add supported products remind me of the first episode of the latest season of Black Mirrors on Netflix 😂 Watch it to see what I’m talking about 😂

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,629 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • Richard Lyall
    Richard Lyall Member Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭

    Hi @Mark Barnes (Logos)

    Thanks for responding above and on my other thread. I'll continue engaging here as this seems to be the main discussion.

    My take on it is very simple, and based simply on user experience, esp for long time investors such as myself.

    1. Please don't force adverts into the study parts of the UI e.g. the Insights popup on mobile. As mentioned on the other thread, this cramps the space for useful, wanted content, and demands attention, and causes irritation. When I'm in the depths of stiudy, which I do daily in Logos, I want to stay in the zone and not be interrupted by advertising or any other push content. The two examples I posted can be seen on the other thread.
    2. We all know Logos needs to advertise and make money, so I'm happy for you to advertise to your hearts' content in the Dashboard on desktop/mobile. Then I know I will see adverts if I access that section of the Desktop and Mobile apps. Does that sound like a fair balance?
    3. Make any mobile advertising/subscription banners hideable with a similar option to the desktop if they must appear.

    My thoughts are not in any way related to the place of AI in Bible study or worship etc. AI can be a useful companion and it's here to stay so we may as well embrace and learn to harness it.

    But let's be the master of AI, but please allow your customers to tailor their experience of it too.

    Thanks again,
    Richard

  • GaoLu
    GaoLu Member Posts: 3,560 ✭✭✭

    I would think, but maybe it's just me, that word of mouth from happy Logos users would generate more sales—far more—than unwanted adverts in an environment of annoyed users, and their word of mouth.

    ChatGPT offered this fascinating insight:
    🎵
    I might be wrong—but here’s my plea,
    Word of mouth beats ads, you see!
    Happy users spread the cheer,
    Bringing curious others near.

    But flood the place with pop-up pain?
    You’ll drive folks off—again, again!
    Joyful fans will do much more
    Than banners users just ignore!
    🎵

  • PAUL CLARK
    PAUL CLARK Member Posts: 9 ✭✭

    Man put them in, man can take them out!!

  • Ryan Schildroth
    Ryan Schildroth Member Posts: 67 ✭✭✭

    Well, 42.0.1 didn’t change it.

    M1 MacBook Pro (2020)

    iPad Air 4th Gen

  • Richard Lyall
    Richard Lyall Member Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭

    The Logos Plus advert has now disappeared from the Word section of the Insights popup but it’s still there in the Verse section. This is true both on Android and iOS versions.

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,629 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Aaron found the 'free' version: https://www.logos.com/free-edition

    True, thinner than earlier, seems.

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • scooter
    scooter Member Posts: 1,264 ✭✭✭

    Which would mean they could thinner-ize it more later.

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,629 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That'd be in the thin-ification department. Closely associated with the subscription department.

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • Ryan Schildroth
    Ryan Schildroth Member Posts: 67 ✭✭✭

    Perhaps what we are unearthing here is a fundamentally different vision for what Logos should be. On one side, if I was a tech company (which is what Faithlife is), I would want to stay conversant with where the tech industry is going (AI, at all costs it would seem).

    On the other side there are those (like me) who want a digital library and study platform (convenience and efficiency) without features to digest it for me.

    I don’t want Faithlife to become an unprofitable tech dinosaur that has to shut down (that helps no one). Nor do I want to be forced to adopt a product I don’t want or face being marginalized out of the platform anyway.

    So is there a way to merge the two visions? If not, is there a case for a separate product needed for AI resistant or hesitant customers? Maybe the classic Libronix?

    M1 MacBook Pro (2020)

    iPad Air 4th Gen

  • EastTN
    EastTN Member Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭

    That's an interesting way of framing the issue, and one that I believe could be very helpful. Thinking about it in those terms, what I would like to see would be:

    • A base digital library and study platform that would have a purchase option, and would include the offline functions of "classic" Logos; and
    • A cloud-based AI service that sits on top of it which would be subscription based, and would include the new AI features where the cost to FaithLife is directly tied to usage.

    An approach along those lines would serve both of the visions you identify.

  • Kristin
    Kristin Member Posts: 816 ✭✭✭

    Hi @EastTN ,

    I think what you said is along my thoughts as well (assuming the "cloud" part of normal syncing, mobile and web access, etc is still part of the classic, as that is obviously important for everyone), and then the AI is subscription. That would make perfect sense. It would for sure make a lot more sense compared to how it currently is.

  • EastTN
    EastTN Member Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭
  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29

    Oh my, my, my! My lips are sealed (just not my keyboard).

    "If not, is there a case for a separate product needed for AI resistant or hesitant customers? Maybe the classic Libronix?"

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • Timothy Henderson
    Timothy Henderson Member Posts: 68 ✭✭

    I used to constantly recommend Logos to my church and staff… I no longer do that. I've always understood this is a company that needs to make money, but the last year or so seems so forced. Removing options, unable to turn things on and off, updates that make no sense. Even in the above post from Logos where he mentions in the future giving "limited versions to all users" … This is all a marketing strategy to get everyone on the subscription. I understand it's a business, but it "seems" money has become more important than the product itself and the purpose of the product. Last year I had a call with Logos to talk to me about the software, I was so excited they wanted to hear and genuinely cared about how we were using the software… turns out all the wanted to know was "what can we do or say to get people to spend more (paraphrasing)"

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,629 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm not making excuses for them, but chances are, their jobs have measurable goals. New owner; new goals.

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • Kristin
    Kristin Member Posts: 816 ✭✭✭

    Hi @Timothy Henderson,

    What you wrote is very concerning. I understand they are moving to a subscription model for all new users (which I obviously don't like), but nonetheless my understanding is that those of us who have v.10 and paid for the features we did, will always continue to have those features. I know this is the case since Logos reps have repeatedly and explicitly stated this to me. I thankfully have the features I need, so this subscription situation does not effect me personally. I have nonetheless been advocating for a buy option since I personally know several people who would have bought Logos but have now decided not to because they don't want a subscription.

  • Ryan Schildroth
    Ryan Schildroth Member Posts: 67 ✭✭✭

    I appreciate everyone’s contributions. I hope someone at Logos is taking notice of these concerns. That’s the purpose of the thread.
    @Mark Barnes (Logos)

    M1 MacBook Pro (2020)

    iPad Air 4th Gen

  • Anatolii Tsoniev
    Anatolii Tsoniev Member Posts: 10 ✭✭

    Many of the arguments here are quite compelling, and I completely agree that there should be an alternative. I also fully agree with the idea that users should have the option to purchase program updates. Personally, I don’t mind whether that comes through a two-year subscription model like we currently have, or as a one-time purchase — though the subscription does seem to offer more value.

    As for AI, I have no issue with it. This is the direction technology is heading, and I don’t think living in the past is a wise approach. We are at a generational crossroads. I remember, years ago, when I first used a wall board to draw out a plan of the Tabernacle — some of the more conservative members in my church nearly branded me a heretic. Times change.

    But here’s my main concern. We’re all reflecting here, each of us looking at our own libraries and how much we’ve spent over the years. We criticize the subscription model — but are we asking ourselves what happens if Logos cancels it? Would they still be able to pay their developers tomorrow?

    I don’t have access to the company’s financials, so I’m only speculating — but I’m doing so while watching their closest competitor on another forum. There’s no subscription model there… but there are no updates either. And users wait a long time for anything new.

    Maybe we should consider what kind of model will actually ensure the long-term financial stability of the software we rely on — rather than only thinking about our personal comfort. After all, that comfort depends heavily on the company’s success.

  • Kristin
    Kristin Member Posts: 816 ✭✭✭

    I’m doing so while watching their closest competitor on another forum. There’s no subscription model there… but there are no updates either. And users wait a long time for anything new.

    Hi @Anatolii Tsoniev, as an active longterm user on the other platform you are referring to, I would just like to clarify that what is going on over there is very complicated. The issue is not a lack of a subscription, and the company is providing new modules, it is just not the modules we had asked for. I don't think this post is an appropriate place for me to discuss what I know, but I did feel it was important to clarify that what is going on over there is very disconnected to this thread.

  • Ryan Schildroth
    Ryan Schildroth Member Posts: 67 ✭✭✭

    No one here wants Faithlife to go belly up. But losing invested users doesn't seem like a sustainable strategy, either. You speak of not only thinking of our personal comfort, while also stating that you are comfortable with AI. It goes both ways. I have come to rely on Logos to be a certain thing: a digital library. I could add and improve as able, but it was always there. Now it's a commercial for something I never asked for.

    Speaking of things I did not ask for, how about a financial paradigm shift on top of the technological? This may not be true for everyone (it probably isn't), but I'm not in the position to commit a subscription fee on a recurring basis. But I can save for a particular resource I want until I can afford it. I have dropped many a company that switched to a subscription model. If you give me no other choice, I will leave. That's not good for business, either. And the rates will inevitably go up.

    Thanks for sharing.

    M1 MacBook Pro (2020)

    iPad Air 4th Gen

  • Ryan Schildroth
    Ryan Schildroth Member Posts: 67 ✭✭✭

    Are you envisioning a base Logos product with an AI add-on/module (and maybe a few other enticements)? I think that could be the ticket. Maybe Logos and Logos+ (because everyone has a +!)?

    M1 MacBook Pro (2020)

    iPad Air 4th Gen

  • Anatolii Tsoniev
    Anatolii Tsoniev Member Posts: 10 ✭✭

    Perhaps I didn’t express myself as clearly as I could have — English isn’t my first language, unfortunately. I just want to say that I completely agree with you: the software should be comfortable and flexible for everyone. It would make sense to allow users to disable certain modules, like AI, if they don’t find them helpful or necessary.

    I also agree that users should have the option to purchase the software itself — not just the libraries. From that perspective, the current two-year subscription model seems attractive to me personally. It feels like we’re essentially buying the upcoming program updates on an installment plan over two years (excluding cloud-based services, which understandably can’t be “owned”). With the added 5% discount on purchases, it may actually be the more cost-effective option for many.

    That said, if the ability to purchase the software outright were to disappear in the future, I would share your concern. First, it would feel unfair to those who have already made significant investments. Second, it could make future investment less appealing to potential new users.

    On the other hand, I’m willing to keep supporting the subscription even after I fully “own” the software — just to help the company stay afloat and receive the added benefits. I live in Los Angeles, and $8–$16 is basically the price of a couple of cups of coffee here. I’m happy to give that up if it helps Logos stay strong — all I’d ask in return is that the program updates released during my subscription remain mine permanently, just like they do now.

  • GaoLu
    GaoLu Member Posts: 3,560 ✭✭✭

    I have been stewing on this, not long, mind you, but stewing nonetheless. Here are my semi-wobegon conclusions so far:

    1. The subscriptions are good and have value. From what we are regularly told, Logos was in no risk of diving with or without subscriptions. But young people just crave ever more life-time investment subscriptions (So, I have read), so it became the inevitable wave of the future—for the good of everyone. Not necessarily for Logos, but Maybe. Or Maybe+ Or MaybePro
    2. The value to me is about $50/year.
    3. I can imagine that to many people, the value could easily be double that.
    4. The value of buying and owning resources as opposed to renting and losing them could easily be worth many times that much.
    5. Regular updates are of negligible benefit to me, but it's hard to know because we get them and then forget them. Subscribing has vaccinated me against any thrill with shiny software gadgets. The bi-annual joy of surprises brought out my wallet.
    6. AI is ho hum. More hum than ho. Summaries…well…I have tried them as a gadgety, fun test more than used them in real life. AI Search is quite good and worth 99% of the value above. Maybe more. All the sermon generating stuff, watery illustration inventions, etc.…totally hum. No ho about them. And hardly any hum.
    7. My uneasiness about subscriptions and Logos' direction has almost entirely halted my purchasing.
    8. I have stopped recommending Logos, choosing to stay silent for now (see above), even though I love it when I use it. As in really love it. Probably, I slip a little here and there, telling people how much I love it.
    9. I probably won't subscribe again after my current purchase subscription runs out. I just wanted to give subscriptions a fair shake. So far its been a limp dishrag. But who knows what tomorrow may bring!
    10. I will probably pick up a book here and there, but not buy big unless/until the dust feels better settled. My wife has been buying more kindle because she doesnt want to go to the hassle of begging Logos to get a book only to have it diesappear in the foggy internals of Bellingham.
    11. We all know 99% (which is just a smidgin short of 100%) that AI is not the wave of the long-term future. How do we know this? Because there will be no AI in Heaven. (I am 99% theologically sure of this). Therefore, this too shall pass away, though maybe not in our lifetime.
    12. I can live with subscriptions and am. Buck up, my brother! My Sister! Be strong! Have courage! Think positive! If we stand by each other, we can survive this. We got through the holocaust! Covid! [Some President]! Did that take us down? No! Not us! Same with subsciptions.
  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,629 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Excellent stewing, Gao.

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • EastTN
    EastTN Member Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭

    That's exactly what I'm thinking. They probably wouldn't use these words, but you could imagine Faithlife pitching it as "Logos 11" and "Logos AI Services". Then you could buy the program and subscribe to the services.

  • DMM
    DMM Member Posts: 297 ✭✭✭
    edited May 30

    I also used to recommend Logos to people at church and almost anyone I might talk about the Bible with. I used to say that the average person could spend less than $100 on some of the starter packages and have enough to keep them busy for a long time.

    But the subscription makes it hard to do that. For them, why would they want to pay $10+/month for pretty much what they can get elsewhere for free? These people aren't doing advanced studies. They don't read a lot. They are happy with a Bible, a couple commentaries, and a Bible dictionary. They don't have interest in AI search.

    Even recently, one guy I had setup with a bunch of the free stuff told me he switched back to what he was using before because he said that one doesn't have ads all over… and I couldn't argue with that. I would have felt bad if he had bought a starter package at my suggestion and then didn't want to use it because it has ads for the subscription on every screen.

  • Dan Akins
    Dan Akins Member Posts: 5 ✭✭

    The best solution is for Logos to abandon the model of making a software difficult to use and make it into an easier to use software. Almost all other Bible software is made after the model of being easier to use. Sadly, I cannot recommend any of my ministry friends to buy Logos in its present form. QuickVerse was so much better....Wordsearch was so much better....ESword is so much easier......but Logos took QuickVerse and Wordsearch and produced a product of so much less quality when it comes to ease of use.

  • GaoLu
    GaoLu Member Posts: 3,560 ✭✭✭

    In all fairness, we might be comparing apples to oranges, so to speak. Both are good.

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  • Anatolii Tsoniev
    Anatolii Tsoniev Member Posts: 10 ✭✭

    I think that, considering how much concern and frustration has been expressed, it would be really helpful if the developers offered some alternatives. You’ve expressed your thoughts with real clarity and depth. I believe that when the current subscription period ends next year, we’re likely to have a serious conversation with the developers about the roadmap going forward—though it’s also possible they already have a proposal in the works that reflects the feedback they’ve received.

  • John
    John Member Posts: 750 ✭✭✭
    edited May 30

    @GaoLu

    Your view on things is very close to the conclusions I have arrived at.

    … The value ofbuyingand owning resources as opposed to rentingand losing them …

    I would say the problem is actually worse.

    The original deal had a library (which you purchased), a program which was free and a promise that it would always be free.

    Sometime after the Libronix time period, the promise of free program forever was abandoned. It became free only in the sense that basic features would be maintained. New functionality was chopped up into myriads of features, datasets etc which you had to pay to purchase.

    In effect, you not only bought books (resources), but you also had to buy the program to fully use them.

    Now the situation has changed (for all new customers) to buying the books, and paying rent perpetually to fully use them. Essentially having to pay an ongoing fee to fully access.

    And to further complicate things, many “resources” are now available as part of the rental plan, requiring a “rent vs own” decision also to be made.

    I cannot in good conscience recommend the purchase of books or resources which are totally dependent upon a reader program which cannot be purchased or owned.

    Can you imagine the loss of customers Amazon would experience if it were announced tomorrow that Kindle devices could no longer be purchased and kindle apps must be part of a subscription? Amazon is smart. You can subscribe to access a library of books. But ownership of the ability to access purchased books has never been clouded or obscured.

  • Ryan Schildroth
    Ryan Schildroth Member Posts: 67 ✭✭✭

    M1 MacBook Pro (2020)

    iPad Air 4th Gen

  • Ryan Schildroth
    Ryan Schildroth Member Posts: 67 ✭✭✭

    In addition to the differing visions that are becoming apparent with Logos, there is a time element. AI is what seems to be now and next (how that pans out remains to be seen). What is being lamented seems to be what was and appears to be disappearing historically. I have almost two decades with Logos and I appreciate for what it was and am skeptical about what it is becoming. Don’t lose what made the platform what it is for the sake of what it could be. Explore the future without losing the past. That’s what the vision was to start with: make historical paper books more useful by digitizing them. In a sense that is what is being done with AI, but we are seemingly losing the last remnant of the original book/library paradigm: ownership and investment. I’d rather have 10 premium books I own than 1,000 computer-digested rentals.

    M1 MacBook Pro (2020)

    iPad Air 4th Gen

  • Bradley Grainger (Logos)
    Bradley Grainger (Logos) Administrator, Logos Employee Posts: 12,190

    Sometime after the Libronix time period, the promise of free program forever was abandoned. … In effect, you not only bought books (resources), but you also had to buy the program to fully use them. … Now the situation has changed (for all new customers) to buying the books, and paying rent perpetually to fully use them. Essentially having to pay an ongoing fee to fully access. … Can you imagine the loss of customers Amazon would experience if it were announced tomorrow that Kindle devices could no longer be purchased and kindle apps must be part of a subscription?

    The free reader is still available at https://www.logos.com/install.

    Maybe we have a different understanding of what "fully use" your purchased resources means, but the free program includes: Reading, Searching, Notes, Highlights, Guides, Layouts, Collections, panel linking, and more. It's much more than just a basic PDF/ebook reader, and the set of free features has only increased since we launched Logos 4 in 2009.

    Yes, you have to pay a subscription fee to access the advanced AI search features (and many of the other brand new features developed since Logos 4 was launched) but claiming that you have to rent perpetually to use purchased ebooks is overstating the case, I think.

  • Kristin
    Kristin Member Posts: 816 ✭✭✭

    the free program includes: Reading, Searching, Notes, Highlights, Guides, Layouts, Collections, panel linking, and more.

    Hi @Bradley Grainger (Logos),

    If I am understanding correctly, when you say "searching," would my friend be able to buy the Greek and Hebrew texts, and on the free version search for the lemma and lex of original language words?

  • Ryan Schildroth
    Ryan Schildroth Member Posts: 67 ✭✭✭

    Thanks for jumping in @Bradley Grainger (Logos)!

    I understand that we will retain ownership of our purchased resources. But as I get presented with ads in the software I have already purchased, I start to wonder if I am viewed as a dying breed, especially when reps use terms like “non-subscriber.”

    If AI becomes what everyone hopes, it will become more and more enmeshed in the product, which causes me to ask if it will eventually assimilate everything, Borg style. Is resistance futile? I hope not. I think there is a place for what Logos has been alongside of what it will be.

    And since I have your attention, resist wokism and identity politics.

    M1 MacBook Pro (2020)

    iPad Air 4th Gen

  • John
    John Member Posts: 750 ✭✭✭
    edited May 30

    @Bradley Grainger (Logos)

    … claiming that you have to rent perpetually to use purchased ebooks is overstating the case, I think.

    Renting perpetually is the new business model. It isn’t just the cripple-ware “free” program that a non-subscriber gets. A non-subscribing customer also has to pay a 5% up-charge penalty to purchase the same books.

    In the end, what matters more is what the customer thinks, their perception is the one that matters most.

  • Whyndell Grizzard
    Whyndell Grizzard Member Posts: 3,527 ✭✭✭

    I despise the AI intrusion as well- it's a basic nuisance to me- a tick button to disable is greatly needed. The ad's are definitely unwanted- I have subscribed, and only buy what I want- when I want it- and I check the website regularly.

    So I'm to the point that I will be blocking all emails from Logos, and any other sales intrusion methods used.

    Sorry to be so blunt but I know you have no intention of stopping your practices, so we'll do it the hard way.

  • Bradley Grainger (Logos)
    Bradley Grainger (Logos) Administrator, Logos Employee Posts: 12,190

    Yes; if you have purchased a morphologically-tagged edition of an original language text in Logos, you can search it with the free version:

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