Passage Guide oddities
I decided to try the passage guide in L4 and found some weird and some frustrating things.
I ran it on Ephesians 4:17-24 (the NIV is my preferred Bible).
The first oddity is that there is a title (pericope name from an unknown version?) "Put on the New Man." If I click the arrow I find that I can give this guide a Title and Description. I'm not sure why I'd want to do that, but it seems to be saved automatically under this name, whether I want it to or not (is there an option not to save?)
The commentary section is a bit underwhelming, or overwhelming, depending on whether or not I click the "more" button. But I don't have any commentaries prioritized right now, maybe that's the issue. I get some pretty 'weak' commentaries at the top (although I do like the IVP Bible Background Commentary, the others seem weak-IMHO, of course).
The Cross References section had some useful verses listed first and fully written out, followed by a list of verses which overflowed to a second page. Is it possible to simply display it all in the same page -- maybe with a drop down "more" link, like we see at the bottom of the Commentaries section? This section gives good information, BTW and the most relevant cross references were the ones that were fully written out. I found this part of the report helpful.
The Handout included so much irrelevant material (4 pages of it) that it seemed not worth the effort to fix it. It seems easier to create a similar document elsewhere. I have no idea how the calling of Levi, the faith of the Syrophonecian woman, the healing of Bartimaeus, paying taxes to Ceaser (etc.) got included in this handout. Does this thing have ADD, because it seems to have it's own way of making connections and getting distracted. (BTW, I have ADD. I know how this works.)
Media resources included some pictures of baptisms in the Jordan river. Huh?
But what really made me curious was the "Topics" section (see attached file). The first two entries (Adam and Baptism) aren't mentioned at all in this section, Adam isn't even in the book of Ephesians! I can see how 'creation' might get in there (cf v.24), but not "descent to the Underworld...First Epistle of Peter, Gift of Tongues...Spirit, Spiritual gifts, tradition."Some of the other topics make some sense. But the main topic of this section (even picked by L4) the "New Man" (and the converse: the "Old Man") aren't listed (except in Spanish "Hombre Nuevo" in large type).
It looks like the topics are picked from references that cite something in the current passage and then then article heading is listed here. The reason "Gift of Tongues" is in there (I just had to figure this one out), was that Anchor Bible Dictionary put in a reference to Eph 4:19 that should have been to Eph 5:19 (typo submitted). So the topic section works like a "cited by" section. My suspicion is that other off-topic topic references have to do with articles citing larger sections of Ephesians that merely include the section I'm studying. This makes the topics section much less helpful than it should be - in fact I probably won't use it again, unless this gets some attention.
When most of the default information in this guide seems irrelevant, it doesn't look very useful to me as designed. The only way this report is going to be helpful is if I spend some time putting together some collections (favorite commentaries, sermon collections, a Bible dictionary, etc.). Come to think of it, this is how I used it in version 3.
On the other hand, it seems to me that if L4 is supposed to work for new users "out of the box," something should probably be changed in this section. Minimally, new users should be encouraged to prioritize resources to get the most benefit out of this guide.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
Comments
-
The commentary section is a bit underwhelming, or overwhelming, depending on whether or not I click the "more" button. But I don't have any commentaries prioritized right now, maybe that's the issue. I get some pretty 'weak' commentaries at the top (although I do like the IVP Bible Background Commentary, the others seem weak-IMHO, of course).
. . .
When most of the default information in this guide seems irrelevant,
it doesn't look very useful to me as designed. The only way this report
is going to be helpful is if I spend some time putting together some
collections (favorite commentaries, sermon collections, a Bible
dictionary, etc.). Come to think of it, this is how I used it in
version 3.If you prioritize them it does work. I know it is pretty slow and tedious work prioritizing but it makes these tools useful -- I think we've forgotten how much set up time L3 took to get it where we wanted it -- although I think L4 may take more time. Those I have were listed first, in the order I prioritized them.
The Handout included so much irrelevant material (4 pages of it) that it seemed not worth the effort to fix it. It seems easier to create a similar document elsewhere. I have no idea how the calling of Levi, the faith of the Syrophonecian woman, the healing of Bartimaeus, paying taxes to Ceaser (etc.) got included in this handout. Does this thing have ADD, because it seems to have it's own way of making connections and getting distracted. (BTW, I have ADD. I know how this works.)
Media resources included some pictures of baptisms in the Jordan river. Huh?
I fully agree with what you say here.
But what really made me curious was the "Topics" section (see attached file). The first two entries (Adam and Baptism) aren't mentioned at all in this section, Adam isn't even in the book of Ephesians! I can see how 'creation' might get in there (cf v.24), but not "descent to the Underworld...First Epistle of Peter, Gift of Tongues...Spirit, Spiritual gifts, tradition."Some of the other topics make some sense. But the main topic of this section (even picked by L4) the "New Man" (and the converse: the "Old Man") aren't listed (except in Spanish "Hombre Nuevo" in large type).
It looks like the topics are picked from references that cite something in the current passage and then then article heading is listed here. The reason "Gift of Tongues" is in there (I just had to figure this one out), was that Anchor Bible Dictionary put in a reference to Eph 4:19 that should have been to Eph 5:19 (typo submitted). So the topic section works like a "cited by" section. My suspicion is that other off-topic topic references have to do with articles citing larger sections of Ephesians that merely include the section I'm studying. This makes the topics section much less helpful than it should be - in fact I probably won't use it again, unless this gets some attention.
I agree here, too. In fact, I'm wondering how "gift of tongues" got in to my list as I don't have the Anchor Bible Dictionary! It is medium sized as well. This needs work.
Chris
0 -
I decided to try the passage guide in L4 and found some weird and some frustrating things.
PG is a work-in-progress, Richard.
I'm surprised you didn't comment on the equally irrelevant Bible People, Places & Things (from what I saw in B2).
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
PG is a work-in-progress, Richard.
I hope so.
I'm surprised you didn't comment on the equally irrelevant Bible People, Places & Things (from what I saw in B2).
For that pericope there was something on Jesus and Gentiles. Both of which were mentioned in the text. What was offered wasn't helpful, but I tend to ignore those sections of the report unless I'm looking at narrative -- with a few exceptions.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
0 -
I imagine that Adam is there as the representative of the corporate old man, in the same way as Christ is the corporate new man. I don't know, but baptism might be there as representing the death and burial of the old man.
Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.
0 -
I imagine that Adam is there as the representative of the corporate old man
I don't doubt that there's an article about Adam that likely discusses something like that and mentions this passage.
But that doesn't change the fact that the topic does not arise directly out of this passage. What does arise directly is the "old man" (and the "new man") which does not get mentioned. But that's because the topic section doesn't seem to look at the passage. It seems to look at articles in Bible dictionaries, encyclopedias and such, for citations to the current passage.
This is not how I would expect a Topic guide to work.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
0 -
This is not how I would expect a Topic guide to work.
Logos have commented that improvements to relevancy/topics can be expected in B4. If my memory is faulty, i'm still expecting improvements in B4!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
In Richard's original post he talked about the media connections. I didn't comment on it then, but now I feel I need to.
I did a PG on Heb. 6:1. - Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,a and of faith in God,
The Holy Bible : New International Version, electronic ed. (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996).The Media section includes:
Papyrus manuscript of Paul's epistles
Papyrus manuscript of Hebrews - makes sense
Mark in Codex Vaticanus
Baptism in the Jordan River I & II - PG was not on 6:2
The Ten Plagues of Egypt 2x
Death of First Born
Akhenaton, his wife Neferti and daughter
The Nazirite vowTopics continue to be weird.
I understand this is a work in progress, but there is much progress to be made.
Chris
0 -
I decided to try the passage guide in L4 and found some weird and some frustrating things.
PG is a work-in-progress, Richard.
I'm surprised you didn't comment on the equally irrelevant Bible People, Places & Things (from what I saw in B2).
To what extent is PG still a work in progress? Topics still gives me strange results. I have RC1. I did a PG on Gen 45:1-15. The BIG topic is Demetrius the Chronographer. I have no idea where that comes from or why it is so big. Click on it and you get it repeated underneath. No link, no resources. If it is so important, why is there no link. SImilarly for several other topics.
Screen shot:
Chris
0 -
To what extent is PG still a work in progress? Topics still gives me strange results.
I've not checked the Biblical xxxx sections in a while but Topics is still a work-in-progress and Interesting Words is more relevant.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
The Topics section of the Passage Guide is still under active development in several directions:
- Showing a title for a topic when you don't have the resource (like Anchor) is a bug: that should be fixed in a future release.
- The ranking of topics (represented by the font size) shows an estimate of the topic's importance to the passage. This represents a complex calculation over a lot of information, and we're still trying to improve it (Demetrius the Chronographer is there because of an article in the Anchor-Yale Bible Dictionary discussing his writings Jewish history that mentions this passage)
- The Topics section mixes together two kinds of information: our new managed inventory of topics
(you'll also see these at the top of some searches) linking to a key
set of dictionaries, and then other topical resources (Naves, Torrey's,
and a few more). We're working on better ways to combine these results for less clutter and more coherence. - Some topics are included that probably don't really belong, and we're still working to improve the filtering.
Also it may not be obvious that an explicit mention of Person/Place/Thing in a passage will not generally be included in the Topics, because we'll be able to provide much more precise information about them in their own sections of the Passage Guide. So the primary information about Joseph in Gen 45:1-15 is found under Biblical People (the current link there is because we haven't properly merged the information yet).
In particular, the Topics sections makes a number of trade-offs, and i'd be interested in any comments about our choices:
- Some topics are widely discussed in many dictionaries (e.g. the trinity): others (like Demetrius the Chronographer) are limited to one or two specialized resources. Our goal is to make the broadest topics more important, and to only include a topic if some minimum percentage of resources link it to a passage.
- Some topics are highly specific to a few passages (or even one: the Bridegroom of Blood from Exod. 4:24–26). Others (marriage, justice) are wide-ranging, with references across the entire Bible. Our current thought is to emphasize topics that are more significant in the current passage.
- For some topics, we have a lot of content (soldier) and for others, much less (centurion). I'd like to emphasize topics with more content.
Your thoughts are welcomed.
0 -
Your thoughts are welcomed.
I hope I can be encouraging to the staff at Logos as I share my thoughts. I also hope I'm not being selfish in expressing what I want. L4 gets me so excited by what it is and it's becoming, I can't help but think of what it could be.
I'm an exegetical/expository student and preacher. So I'm very text oriented (rather than topic oriented) as I study. But in my study there are Biblical topics and themes that have not only theological significance but are key Biblical themes. In the passage I was studying -- the one that got me all flustered and frustrated (I've since recovered) -- the topics "the new man" and "the old man" (new/old self in NIV) was mentioned. That is a Biblically significant topic, that the topic section did not pick up -- though it picked up some near misses. You almost got it right.
The current approach seems to be a 'cited by' type of approach, with a focus on topic-tagged resources that intersect with the text. Is that a fair way to put it? What I would prefer is the reverse of this approach, where the Biblical text is compared phrase by phrase to an index of topics. Maybe it would be simpler to compare the list of topics to the text - now that I think about it.
I see some obvious problems with that, since computers won't recognize synonyms very well (is it "new man" or "new self" or "new person?"). It would take some creative programing to get around this. But if you could, imagine the possibilities! It would change Bible study forever. I suppose one way would be to tie the topics to the acceptable translations (there's a potential synonym database) of the words in the original language. The reverse interlinears might be a place to start.
As an end-user, when I do a passage guide I want to look at topics that arise out of the text. I'm not interested (at least initially) with topics that only touch the text tangentially. I'm interested in the precise wording, of the text (with the expectation that English synonyms are acceptable). I want and expect more than is possible right now, but not more than is possible.
When I'm looking at the topical report in the PG, I also expect that articles with titles that match the text, are prioritized over articles that discuss the topic within the context of another topic (hope that makes sense). Thousands of articles might mention or discuss the Trinity, but I want to see the articles titled "Trinity" (or variations) first, and most prominently.
Finally, I'd prefer the way L3 handled resources and topics. I'd love to see the topics grouped by resource in collapsible lists. It makes the lists more manageable and easier to navigate (IMHO). I have Naves, but I'd rather read what Anchor Bible or ISBE says first.
There is potential for great breakthroughs in this area. I believe it will come when prayerful programmers and program designers explore beyond the boundaries of conventional assumptions. And, if I may let my charismatic side out for a moment, I believe God wants to reveal the methodology for breakthrough in the area of textual topic studies. It's His Word. He wants it known in its fullness. You guys are at the cutting edge, already pushing the boundaries. You've been faithful with what you've been given so far, keep looking for more.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
0 -
I hope I can be encouraging to the staff at Logos as I share my thoughts. I also hope I'm not being selfish in expressing what I want. L4 gets me so excited by what it is and it's becoming, I can't help but think of what it could be.
Richard,
God bless you brother...what a fully Christian way to begin a whole paragraph of suggestions.
I learn from you and everyone every day....
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
0 -
Rich:
There are some interesting ideas here, and i appreciate your feedback.
The current approach seems to be a 'cited by' type of approach, with a focus on topic-tagged resources that intersect with the text. Is that a fair way to put it? What I would prefer is the reverse of this approach, where the Biblical text is compared phrase by phrase to an index of topics.
That's a pretty accurate statement of how Topics currently works. I can see the merits of the reverse approach, but that requires data we don't currently have (though we've considered it).
Finally, I'd prefer the way L3 handled resources and topics. I'd love to see the topics grouped by resource in collapsible lists. It makes the lists more manageable and easier to navigate (IMHO). I have Naves, but I'd rather read what Anchor Bible or ISBE says first.
The current display groups resources by topics: rather than collapsible lists, you see the "tag cloud" list of topics, and when you click on one you see the individual resources down below. Apart from whether you like a list better than a tag cloud,that seems comparable to L3. Am i missing something? (the topics are different, of course, but that's a different matter) Maybe you're suggested they first be grouped by resource (all the Anchor topics together), then by topic?
By the way, my opinion is that the resources should be displayed in priority order (they're not now): i've reported that as a bug.
0 -
Maybe you're suggested they first be grouped by resource (all the Anchor topics together), then by topic?
I can only speak for myself, but yes. I'd prefer they were grouped by resource first, then topic. Grouping by resource tells me something about the value and reliability of the information I'm about to look at. If I could, I'd typically start with the heavy hitters (Anchor, ISBE, e.g.) and then, if I haven't found what I'm looking for, keep going with the other resources that don't have quite the academic 'chops.' I know that some articles in smaller, older, or less academic sources can be gems too. There are a few times, though, when I just want something simple and those one-volume wonders are just right, for many of those instances.
So, yeah. I'd prefer to see the articles grouped by resource first.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
0 -
Rich,
that's the one thing I liked about the v3 way....you could; at a glance to a quick eval of the "possiblility" of the usefulness of the info.
Justification
BDAG (probably useful)
Hymnal (probably not)
you get the idea
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
0
