Searching for questions of Christ?
Any way to search the words of Christ for sentences containing questionmarks?
thanks
Comments
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Derek said:
Any way to search the words of Christ for sentences containing questionmarks?
thanks
Hmm, good question. You can't search for punctuation in Logos. So you might be able to get a good approximation by searching for all the question words: who, what, where, when, why, how, which. But that won't catch questions that are formed by reversing subject/verb: "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
I don't know Greek, but maybe there is some clue in Greek that points to a question which you could search for which someone else could help you with.
Barring that, it looks like a good project to read through all the red letter text looking for questions and marking them up with a particular highlighting style that you create for the purpose: Questions of Jesus. Someday, when/if we're able to export our highlighting to share with others, you'd be very popular!
You could use one of these books as a guide to help you should you decide to take this project on:
The Questions of Jesus, by John Dear ("offers a 2-3 page reflection [each] on 125 of Jesus' questions")
The Questions of Jesus: Meditations on the Red Letter Questions by Don Harris ("There are 151 questions, formulated in the mind of the Son of God, recorded in the Scriptures. This book explores them all.")
These are not available in Logos, unfortunately.
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Derek said:
Any way to search the words of Christ for sentences containing questionmarks?
thanks
Derek,
I assume you know that the "words of Christ" is one of the search fields available, however I do not think the program will search punctuation. I thought initially that you might be able to search the common question words (who, what, where, when, why, how) but that does not work very well as it returns a lot of passage that are not questions (e.g. "Blessed are those who mourn, etc.)
If have have a resource in you library called "All the Questions of the Bible, you could do a passage list for the 4 Gospel's, Acts, and Revelation. This would at least narrow the field of questions and then delete those that are not questions Christ posed.
If someone else has another idea, I would be interested in hearing it.
EDIT: Rosie was posting at the same time I was, sorry for any duplication in our answers.
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Derek said:
for sentences containing questionmarks?
You can use the following to find questions:
I don't have time to see if you can add the words limit here or if one has to do two search and merge the results (overlaping)
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Derek said:
for sentences containing questionmarks?
You can use the following to find questions:
I don't have time to see if you can add the words limit here or if one has to do two search and merge the results (overlaping)
It looks like you can add the Word of Christ limit here:
But when I did that I got zero results.
However you could create a passage list from those results (choose "Save as Passage List" from the panel menu). Then I think you can create another passage list with just the Words of Christ by doing a Bible Search for * (the wildcard character) with the Words of Christ checkbox set under Search Fields (drop down that menu by clicking on "All Text"). (I'm in the midst of trying it now, but wildcard searches take a very long time, so it isn't finished yet.) Once you have the two Passage Lists, you can merge them via Intersection (open either PL, select Merge, select the other PL from the list, and choose Intersection from the right side of the menu).
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I suspect that's because only the surface text is tagged with WoC, not the underlying Greek text.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
I suspect that's because only the surface text is tagged with WoC, not the underlying Greek text.
If that's the case, then why do they let us select WoC in a Morph search?
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Try as follows.
If you set "Words of Christ" you get ZERO, as above, so just search all Matt-John.
Then save as a Passage List.
Then, remove any that you don't want.
Then, add any missing ... which is of course, your original question ... [:)]
HINT: If you make multiple different passage lists, using different kinds of search, you can then add, merge, subtract them etc to make new ones. Think if them as "set" operations, and build all kinds of goodies as required. Its a powerful feature, that I've seen little talk of here, but its worth learning.
P.S. My "Gospels" is just a named search range, so I don't have to get the whole NT or Bible in results. Note that there are Words of Christ in Acts, Rev and a few other NT locations. The exact Words-of-Christ vary by translation, and are not indicated in the Greek manuscripts, so use caution on what is, or is not, actually included.
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OK, my wildcard search for Words of Christ just finished. I did an Intersection Merge of the Passage List generated from that with the PL generated from Martha's suggested Morph search for the Greek Interrogative Particle, and came up with only 55 verses. It's missing, for example, all of Jesus' questions to Peter in John 21:15-17 "Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?" Etc.
I don't know Greek at all, but evidently there are questions that do not use that interrogative particle. I couldn't find anything in the morphology of the Greek text of those verses that would indicate a question, so you'd have to figure it out from context.
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Rosie,
For ESV Gospels, counts as follows:
@BI => 96 hits
@RI => 400
@TI => 111
@V??O => 12
All up, using all four for entire NT, gets 851 verses. Merge/intersect that with your PL for Words-of-Christ, and then explore the results.
I expect some false hits, and some misses, but I have not tried in any detail.
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Remember, you can use a passage list to restrict a search range too.
Prov. 15:23
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This title is in all base packages except Original Languages
All the Questions in the Bible
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Rosie Perera said:
If that's the case, then why do they let us select WoC in a Morph search?
WOC Field in a Bible search also gives zero results because of the silly limitation to surface text. So I used a special reference range of all WOC in Gospels that I had from L3 - see http://community.logos.com/forums/p/9732/77362.aspx#77362. It returned 55 verses very quickly but omitted the ones you mentioned in Jn.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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This seems like a pretty simple question for which there is no simple answer in Logos right now. The data is available, but our search limitations prevent us from being able to find it. What this points up is the need for a fully functional search capability within Logos. We need to be able to specify the search parameters, the data type, and the resources we want to search without the current limitations imposed by the current Basic, 'Bible', Morph', and 'Syntax' impositions. I know Logos doesn't want to create a beast they have to support, but learning to write a search 'from scratch' couldn't be harder than figuring our syntactical searches, IMO.
(For example, The Lexham Causal Outlines of the Greek NT contains markers for questions which are searchable in Basic search as surface text. Fine. But there is no way to then search those results for the WOC marker in an English Bible, or for any other data we might want to search. A full search capability would let us search the first for intersections with the latter. I won't hold my breathe for this, but it would unlock all the data we have in Logos.)
Another possibility for just this search would be for Logos to 'hard code' a list of the WOC Bible references (sort of like the passage list Dave supplied) which could then serve as a Bible reference option in all types of searches. This would be easy and a useful thing to do.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark A. Smith said:
Another possibility for just this search would be for Logos to 'hard code' a list of the WOC Bible references (sort of like the passage list Dave supplied) which could then serve as a Bible reference option in all types of searches. This would be easy and a useful thing to do.
Actually, NO, NOT an easy thing to do ...
Words-of-Christ are not an original part of the manuscripts, so are up to the translation teams to decide. A simple check between ESV and NIV will show different verses includes or excluded.
E.G. John 3:16 in NIV "For God so loved the world ..." is shown in red, however, see the footnote after verse 21.
Possible solution: Make a WOC Passage List that includes the Superset of all main(trusted/prefered/fav.) versions as the base for any such searches. Then, on finding any "answers", consider the verses on their merit, using all tools to hand.
(Be nice if we had a working wildcard search that does not take an hour every time.)
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JimT said:
(Be nice if we had a working wildcard search that does not take an hour every time.)
+1 [Y]
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Mark A. Smith said:
What this points up is the need for a fully functional search capability within Logos.
YES!!!
Please let us have access to the aw search engine. I don't care if the syntax is tricky or complex, but at least let those that are motived enough have at it!
(Someone would soon enough write up all kinds of cut-N-paste examples all over a wiki page or two, so those wanting or needing it, would work out the gory stuff. And of course, leave the nice simple front ends for users that just want to do more simple searching.)
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JimT said:
Actually, NO, NOT an easy thing to do ...
Not to argue, but it isn't hard to do at all. Your point is which version to base it on, not the difficulty of getting it done. Logos can create more than one set if they choose. Call them NASWOC, ESVWOC, or whatever. That would be a long way ahead of what we have now.
I think it may be faster to create the WOC passage list in 3.0. I gave up in 4.0 and tried it there. It took time, maybe 10 minutes to do the search and create the verse list. BTW: mine's based on the NAS.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark A. Smith said:
Not to argue, but it isn't hard to do at all. Your point is which version to base it on, not the difficulty of getting it done.
Correct!
Yes, not so hard in technical terms. Hard in terms of "which verses are in or out?". I should have made that clearer.
In Logos4, search for "*" with only Words-of-Christ enabled. Takes a VERY LONG time. Export/Save as a passage list. e.g. NIV as "WOC_NIV", ESV as "WOC_ESV", NASB95 as "WOC_NAS" etc, according to taste.
Then, using the Merge or Add Passage List features of 4.1 (Beta), slice and dice as required.
Actually, someone could do this for all their bibles that have WOC markup, make the master list, and paste it back here as a simple text file of the hits. Then, anyone else could do a simple import to their own PL, and not need the search portion.
If no one beats me to it, I might do it later today, if nothing else gets my attention, or seems more important at the time ...
Is such a list fair-useage, or a Copyright issue?
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JimT said:
Is such a list fair-useage, or a Copyright issue?
You would not be distributing the actual text through sharing the references. I can't see a problem with that.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark A. Smith said:JimT said:
Is such a list fair-useage, or a Copyright issue?
You would not be distributing the actual text through sharing the references. I can't see a problem with that.
I think the question is more whether the list of verses which the ESV translators consider to be WOC is their intellectual property (they've gone to the work to determine which verses they think he spoke), and ditto for each of the other translations that have red letter versions.
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JimT said:
Actually, someone could do this for all their bibles that have WOC markup, make the master list, and paste it back here as a simple text file of the hits. Then, anyone else could do a simple import to their own PL, and not need the search portion.
This is my ESV WOC list which can be used to generate a PL or a Reference Range. One can choose the Gospels only or Gospels + rest of NT.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Reading through and trying to intrepret all your responses, I kind of get the idea that this is really not that possible at the moment to get a list of the questions of Christ?
If I were to take that text file, is there any way to use that to get the questions using the greek?
Thanks, I am such a newbie at all this... Never studied greek, I am afraid.
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You can make a search of all the Words of Christ with the following search.
Once it generates the list click the panel menu and select "Export to passage List". Save this list as "Words of Christ". Now make a morph search look like this...
I realized after going through all this that you said you wanted the questions, not the commands. I think there is a way (a couple of words in Greek indicate that a question is being asked rather then the form of words, If I remember correctly.) but I'll post this anyway in case someone is able to learn something from it.
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Philip Spitzer said:
You can make a search of all the Words of Christ with the following search.
That will only find the verses that include words beginning with a vowel. I'm sure Jesus must have spoken sentences with no words beginning with a vowel (in English translation, that is). Here's one, for example: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (that verse would get picked up by your search, though, because of the preceding Aramaic bit which is part of the same verse: "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?")
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Rosie Perera said:
That will only find the verses that include words beginning with a vowel. I'm sure Jesus must have spoken sentences with no words beginning with a vowel (in English translation, that is). Here's one, for example: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (that verse would get picked up by your search, though, because of the preceding Aramaic bit which is part of the same verse: "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?")
Yeah, I guess you need a star on both sides of the vowel.
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Philip Spitzer said:
Yeah, I guess you need a star on both sides of the vowel.
Why include the list of vowels at all? Why not just search for * ? Yeah, it's slow (takes about an hour on my system). But is searching for all the words with vowels in them any faster? I haven't let it go long enough to determine whether it's faster.
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Rosie Perera said:
Why include the list of vowels at all? Why not just search for * ? Yeah, it's slow (takes about an hour on my system). But is searching for all the words with vowels in them any faster? I haven't let it go long enough to determine whether it's faster.
I guess it depends on your system. Mine accomplished the search in about 5-10 minutes I think. I walked away with 2055 hits after including "*vowel*. When I tried the wild card it was taking too long.
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Derek said:
Reading through and trying to intrepret all your responses, I kind of get the idea that this is really not that possible at the moment to get a list of the questions of Christ?
If I were to take that text file, is there any way to use that to get the questions using the greek?
Thanks, I am such a newbie at all this... Never studied greek, I am afraid.
A Morph search for the Interrogative type in Greek grammar is the closest as Interrogative implies a Question. I would use the terms:-
The WOC text file can be used to create a Passage List to limit the search to verses containing the Words of Christ. Create a new PL and use the Add ... a file option to import the verses from the text file. Use that PL (I called it WOC-Gospels) as shown below:-
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Perhaps someone has already said this, but why not just go to Matthew 1:1 in your English Bible, hit ctrl-F and type "?"
Kind of low tech, but it should work.
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A very good thought, but you will have to weed through all the questions from other people in the gospels.
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yes, of course.
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Hmm... Used the words of christ to start out with, then tried different searches. nothing worked very well.
I ended up copying the list and pasting it into word.
I used Word to search for "?" and then manually deleted every sentence that was a statement...
Then I found out that half of the entries were entries that people asked Jesus as well, not just the words of Jesus. Some verses contain statments from others within the samve verse as something that Christ said...
Then I also found that some of these items are very long, and they were cut off. The copy and paste of the information just left some things like this
Sermon on the mount words of Christ - Blessed are the etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. ...
The ... was the end of it, but some things like the sermon on the mount went on for ever, but the full text was not shown...
1 hour of work - and I finally felt it was too complicated to finish...
So instead, I saved a list, but all that gave me was the references.
I finally gave up.
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Roy Zuck book Teaching as Jesus Taught pg. 258 (Baker publishers) has a table listing all the questions Jesus asked. In this table he has 225 questions, the individual or groups addressed, the kind of question (15 categories) and the immediate response of the one or ones questioned. This is not available in logos. In pg. 291 he has a table of 103 questions addressed to Jesus and His responses.
In another book by Zuck Teaching as Paul taught pg. 184 he lists 250 questions Paul asked and the type of question asked.
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I think this OPenText query gives all questions in the Bible, but I could not figure out how to direct it just to Words of Christ, as that does not seem to be in their syntax. This returns 158 results, not too bad to scroll through:
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Hi Dominick
This looked really interesting and so I replicated your search.
Looking at some of the results I noted that it didn't find the questions Jesus asked in Matthew 5:46
If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
Looking at the clausal outlines it seems to be using a different construct as below (but I don't know enough Greek to understand exactly what is happening here).
The same is also true for the questions in Matthew 5:47 but I haven't looked any further
Graham
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Not a LOGOS resource, but it might be of help:
So twenty years ago Bishop John Marshall, Bishop of Burlington VT. and later Springfield Mass compiled a book: But Who Do You Say That I Am? In the book he collected and listed all the questions Jesus asked in the Gospels. And he encourages us to answer the question. He also listed questions asked by others in another section of the book. Bishop Marshall in listing the question gives extra verses for context and adds brief commentaries. However, I would like to list just the raw questions. I will give the verse reference so you can look it up. But I encourage you to print this list and take it to prayer. Read it slowly, perhaps over days or weeks. I have attached a PDF version of the List here: 100 Questions that Jesus asked and YOU must answer. Ponder each question. Answer each question prayerfully and reflectively. This is not the complete list of questions but it is surely food for thought. Now, answer the questions:
You can find the quote and the list of questions here:
http://blog.adw.org/2010/03/answer-the-question-one-hundred-questions-that-jesus-asked/
You also find a link to the original book (if the above link does not work as copied). The original book looks like it might be an interesting addition to LOGOS - if it is still available.
Add these to those posted by Rosie in her original post:
Rosie Perera said:You could use one of these books as a guide to help you should you decide to take this project on:
The Questions of Jesus, by John Dear ("offers a 2-3 page reflection [each] on 125 of Jesus' questions")
The Questions of Jesus: Meditations on the Red Letter Questions by Don Harris ("There are 151 questions, formulated in the mind of the Son of God, recorded in the Scriptures. This book explores them all.")
These are not available in Logos, unfortunately.
I had read it when she posted it, but forgot to scan the thread before posting my reply.
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Dominick Sela said:
I think this OPenText query gives all questions in the Bible, but I could not figure out how to direct it just to Words of Christ
I used Unordered to simplify your query and I have a reference range for WOC that you can get here 3755.WOC_ESV.txt.
The lemma tis is an interrogative pronoun but I could not use the morphology because it would exclude Matt 5:46. The pronoun is also used in 5:47 but OpenText got that wrong(?) and it's not worth the false positives to exclude the Definer!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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INteresting thread it would be nice to completely figure it out!
Here is another example of why we need to be able to do some sort of wildcard search - if I could do a search that returns all the verses of Words of Christ, I could then create a passage list and search against that. I tried searching Words of Christ for '?' and it returned everything, and redundantly it appears. Some searches Logos appears not to be able to handle very well, although it could easily be my own experience with it shining through!
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Floyd and Rosie:
Are you familiar with the book Teaching As Jesus Taught by Roy Zuck . I believe it contains the most complete lists of question and analysis available. He list 225 questions. See my prior post.
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JohnBrumett said:
Are you familiar with the book Teaching As Jesus Taught by Roy Zuck . I believe it contains the most complete lists of question and analysis available. He list 225 questions. See my prior post.
I am familiar with the author, but not this book. I would tend to trust most of what he has written - though I have no way of comparing this book to the others listed here. Maybe Rosie or somebody else has some sense of how this book compares to the others.
Since you cannot do the search yourself, at this point, it might not be a bad choice to pick up two or three of those mentioned in the thread to compare their results. I found one of them used on-line for less than $5, including shipping.
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Floyd Johnson said:JohnBrumett said:
Are you familiar with the book Teaching As Jesus Taught by Roy Zuck . I believe it contains the most complete lists of question and analysis available. He list 225 questions. See my prior post.
I am familiar with the author, but not this book. I would tend to trust most of what he has written - though I have no way of comparing this book to the others listed here. Maybe Rosie or somebody else has some sense of how this book compares to the others.
Since you cannot do the search yourself, at this point, it might not be a bad choice to pick up two or three of those mentioned in the thread to compare their results. I found one of them used on-line for less than $5, including shipping.
I'm not familiar with the book. My post came much before your post, and Floyd was just copying it forward in case others had missed it. You might be right that Zuck's book is the most complete. I am not familiar with either of the ones I mentioned. I just found them in a search on Amazon.com. The Don Harris one claims to be exhaustive as well. But 225 > 151 > 125. So Zuck's is probably the most complete. I guess it might get down to dithering over what is or isn't a question. Also, in addition to being exhaustive in listing the questions, one would also want to see how thorough and edifying the discussions of the questions are. Is it just some watered-down mush, or is it really thoughtful and spiritually nourishing? This sounds like an interesting area to explore, but I'm not interested in it enough to buy all or even one of the books to pursue it. If someone wants to do a comparison, you could probably borrow the books for free from your local library via Inter-Library Loan. Only two of them are listed on worldcat.org, though:
John Dear, The Questions of Jesus - 71 libraries in North America have it
Roy Zuck, Teaching as Jesus Taught - 122 libraries have it
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JohnBrumett said:
He lists 225 questions. See my prior post.
One common reason for a discrepancy in count is whether each synoptic Gospel version is counted individually. Another is how rhetorical questions are handled.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thank you Floyd and Rosie for responding. I had the privlidge of sitting under Dr. Zuck teaching and I and tell you he is very meticulous in his study of scripture and very practical at the same time.
In this book he expounds on 15 purposes for Jesus asking questions.
1. To petition for information or to recall facts
2. To promote conversation
3. To point out something contrary to fact
4. To procure assent
5. To push for an expression of faith
6. To prod for an opinion or an expression of a desire
7. To prove or to test faith or spiritual commitment
8. To promote thinking or reflection
9. To persuade critics of their errors
10. To pull person(s) up short
11. To pour out an emotion
12. To probe for motives
13. To prick the conscience
14. To pinpoint a topic
15. To press for application of the truth
Zuck classifies every question according to these categories.
M.J. Zuck list of 225 combines all accounts in the gospels. He had a table listing a total of 304 questions of Jesus in the Gospels Matthew 90 Mark 67 Luke 96 and John 51. Rhetorical questions are under classification #8 (to promote thinking or reflection.
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JohnBrumett said:
13. To *** the conscience
Ha! The forum software thought you were using a rude word and censored you. We know what word you meant, though. Silly software!
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I will give you a hint. It is 5 lettlers and begins with a P and ends with a K. Do a search of your dictionary pr??k. Ha Ha
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Hey all,
I just wanted to take the time to thank you all for a great dicussion on this thread. I've been monitoring it for the past few days and have found it to be very educational. Search is one of the L4 features that I haven't used very much. I do a lot of reading and checking the original languages, as well as using the clause graphs. I wasn't aware that L4 would allow you to merge searches and only keep the results that overlap. That is very interesting. You guys really do make this software much better. Thanks again.
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Dominick Sela said:
INteresting thread it would be nice to completely figure it out!
Yes. The OpenText Syntax is unsatisfactory together with the others. The simple text search is the best!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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This has been added to the wiki as : http://topics.logos.com/All_the_Questions_Jesus_Christ_Asked
Please add to it as you have time and information.[:)]
It would be great if we could get some of these books mentioned here in LOGOS!
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