Incredibly slow notes

Notes have always bn a bit sluggish on my netbook. But in the last few weeks (don't know exactly when it started) notes are ridiculously slow. I can type an entire paragraph before any text appears on the screen (it catches up though). And thn if I go back and change a single letter as an edit, it takes about 45 seconds for the edit to appar and I am unable to do anything else in the program until the edit appears.

I don't have any quantitative data on the relative slowness now versus before. But it certainly feels much slower. Was there any changes in notes in the last month or so that would have caused this?

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Dave Hooton

There were no features or bug fixes for Notes in 4.0d, but we don't know what changes occurred "under the hood".

Melissa Snyder

Jacob,

I'm not able to reproduce this, so a few more details may help.

Does this same slowness occur in a new Note document, or primarily in an existing large Note document, or imported Note file?
Does it occur when just the Notes document is open, or when there are several other panels open?
Are there links to references, resources, or websites included in the note you're typing in?
Does it occur when Logos 4 is the only program open?
Does it occur when you're working offline?
Could you enable logging temporarily, reproduce the problem and attach a Logos4.log file to this thread?

Thanks,
Melissa

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147793#Comment_147793

Does this same slowness occur in a new Note document, or primarily in an existing large Note document, or imported Note file?

Does it occur when just the Notes document is open, or when there are several other panels open?

Are there links to references, resources, or websites included in the note you're typing in?

Does it occur when Logos 4 is the only program open?

Does it occur when you're working offline?

Could you enable logging temporarily, reproduce the problem and attach a Logos4.log file to this thread?

I experience the same problem and so am answering your questions, Melissa.

I created a new note document and typed a sentence. Then I typed the same sentence into an existing note document, which is both large and imported from L3. The new note document typing was normal. The existing large imported document was slow (delay in seeing the typed text appear). So, this seems to be the answer.

The existing, large, imported does have links to resources. It does not have links to websites. It may have the occasional table, but if so, it would be very rare.

I was online when I tested. I have a couple other programs open (Outlook and IE). My computer is a dual core 4.2 ghz, 4 gb ram, 320 gb hdd (most of it is free), running Win 7 premium 64 bits.

I can send a log if the above does not already provide the answers you need.

Blessings.

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/153009#Comment_153009

I am not sure when it started but today as I prepare for the sermon I noticed the same problem. As I type the text appears a few seconds later. Definitely it is different from the previous experience.

tjebme

Sluggish for me as well.

David Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/153012#Comment_153012

Ditto here.

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/153058#Comment_153058

Perhaps related to the hang-ups with the notes are also the hang-ups with the entire program (the "not responding" message at the top of the window that lasts a few seconds). Overall, these are still all too common compared to all other softwares I use.

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/153067#Comment_153067

I started noticing this problem this afternoon when working on something. I had a custom passage guide open that was populated primarily with commentaries, surveys, and outlines; four bibles (no highlighting or visual filters were applied) a note file that has a couple of verse passage hyperlinks in it ; and 4 or 5 commentaries. I had no other programs open in the background.

Typing in the note file became very sluggish and delayed. In some cases I was able to type complete sentences before it would appear on the screen.

I loaded my Logos 4 log below. Notice toward the end of that log all of the warnings and errors that occur while I am typing notes as I read.

0652.Logos4.zip

EDIT: I am working with the internet off. I have had this same layout open in previous releases and have not noticed the problem. In the past I have only experienced this sluggish performance when I had a lot of highlighting or visual filter acitivity.

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/153359#Comment_153359

bump

Melissa Snyder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/153359#Comment_153359

Typing in the note file became very sluggish and delayed. In some cases I was able to type complete sentences before it would appear on the screen.

I loaded my Logos 4 log below. Notice toward the end of that log all of the warnings and errors that occur while I am typing notes as I read.

Fred -- We'll take a look at your log, thanks.

Melissa Snyder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/153009#Comment_153009

I experience the same problem and so am answering your questions, Melissa.

Thanks Francis. I provided your information to development along with Jacob's and Fred's (with log).

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/153485#Comment_153485

I had never checked back in on this, but I just wanted to say that I have not been noticing the sluggishness on notes now like I had in the past. When Logos 4 first came out I would write sermons and long notes in Word because Logos notes was too slow. I just finished 2 days solid of writing within Logos without any appreciable degree of lag in the notes. Thank you, Logos.

Good work.

Wyn Laidig

I have always found the Notes editor to be sluggish. It is extremely annoying to work with. You can type a word or two with quick response, then it stops for a second while you keep typing away and seeing nothing until it catches up. This happens with empty new note files as well as large imported ones. It may be better than Logos4 first came out, but it is still unacceptable.

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/176564#Comment_176564

After a time of respite, I have problems again with slow notes and/or the "not responding" 5 seconds freezes. All in all, in spite of great improvement, I would say that Logos 4 is still more prone to buggy behaviour than any of the other apps I use.

Scott Dietrick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/177083#Comment_177083

Any and all notes have always been sluggish for me. I hope this is something that gets some serious attention now. I use notes a lot and it drives me wack dealing with the delays.

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/177130#Comment_177130

Help, Melissa! It's happening so frequently, it is a drag.

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/180424#Comment_180424

Help, Melissa! It's happening so frequently, it is a drag.

Francis,

Just out of curiosity, does this happen when the note file is the only resource open?

Melissa Snyder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/180424#Comment_180424

Help, Melissa! It's happening so frequently, it is a drag.

Here is an excerpt from a recent post by Bob Pritchett about notes (http://community.logos.com/forums/p/24110/179516.aspx#179516):

#3 is a performance issue in the WPF rich text box. We're still trying to figure out how to speed this up, but don't have much hope other than faster machines. (I'm very surprised you're experiencing the problem with your specs.) This is probably the weakest performance area in WPF, but unfortunately it's an all-or-nothing scenario -- we're are locked in, and can't opt out of WPF for just this component. We'll keep looking for solutions, and keep pressuring Microsoft to optimize this scenario.

Some users have indicated that they see less of the slowness problem by having fewer individual notes in each Note document.

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/180430#Comment_180430

Philip, I missed your question a while back. But you are RIGHT. It makes an immediate difference when I close all other windows IN LOGOS 4 (the other apps don't matter). The question is: what does that mean? Are Logos staff aware of that phenomenon?

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/180430#Comment_180430

Help, Melissa! It's happening so frequently, it is a drag.

Here is an excerpt from a recent post by Bob Pritchett about notes (http://community.logos.com/forums/p/24110/179516.aspx#179516):

#3 is a performance issue in the WPF rich text box. We're still trying to figure out how to speed this up, but don't have much hope other than faster machines. (I'm very surprised you're experiencing the problem with your specs.) This is probably the weakest performance area in WPF, but unfortunately it's an all-or-nothing scenario -- we're are locked in, and can't opt out of WPF for just this component. We'll keep looking for solutions, and keep pressuring Microsoft to optimize this scenario.

Some users have indicated that they see less of the slowness problem by having fewer individual notes in each Note document.

My question to y'all is why do I have this problem in L4 only? I do not have this problem in any other program that I use.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/182193#Comment_182193

I do not have this problem in any other program that I use.

What other programs do you have that use WPF? As I recall, Logos is a fairly early adopter of this technology so the answer may be very few with texts long enough to make the problems visible.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/182228#Comment_182228

What other programs do you have that use WPF? As I recall, Logos is a fairly early adopter of this technology so the answer may be very few with texts long enough to make the problems visible.

I do not know what program uses what technology, and to tell you the truth, I do not care what technology a program that I uses. What I do know is that I only have this sluggish problems in L4. Therefore, it is a problem with L4.

For me, I take Bob Pritchet's statement about the issue being with WPF and not L4 as passing the buck. I think Bob needs (and wants) to hear what we have to say about L4. So, I am going to share what I heard when I read Bob's statement, "It is not our fault that L4 is a substandard product, the problem belongs with Microsoft." I know that same people would say, "Wow, that was harsh." But this is how I took Bob's statement, and I think Bob needs (and wants) to hear our (good and bad) feedback.

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/182246#Comment_182246

For me, I take Bob Pritchet's statement about the issue being with WPF and not L4 as passing the buck. I think Bob needs (and wants) to hear what we have to say about L4. So, I am going to share what I heard when I read Bob's statement, "It is not our fault that L4 is a substandard product, the problem belongs with Microsoft." I know that same people would say, "Wow, that was harsh." But this is how I took Bob's statement, and I think Bob needs (and wants) to hear our (good and bad) feedback.

Tom,

I'm sure Bob appreciates and seeks feedback, whether it be positive or negative. Any good business person wants that. I agree (and I think what Bob and others at Logos have said) that the notes feature is not where anyone wants it to be. There are varying opinions on where the feature should be; but all agree it is not there (wherever "there" may be) yet. In that sense I guess you could say L4 is sub-standard.

However the overall product IMO is far from sub-standard. The capabilities, features, and tools in L4 have far exceeded my expectations; and have taken my study of God's word far beyond what would be possible with any other product I am aware of.

Don't stop providing feedback and challenging Logos toward continuous improvement and innovation. I am sure that is Bob's goal (to inlcude as he stated looking for ways to improve the notes feature) for his company.

Clinton Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/182307#Comment_182307

... when I read Bob's statement, "It is not our fault that L4 is a substandard product,...

However the overall product IMO is far from sub-standard. The capabilities, features, and tools in L4 have far exceeded...

There are two aspects to a software program, scope and quality. Scope refers to the breadth of the functionality offered, quality refers to how well it does what it does.

A program can be narrow scope but high quality, limited function but it does it correctly, never crashes, does it fast, etc. A program can be broad scope, but low quality, That is, it does a lot of things, but it is slow, it crashes, it locks up.

You are arguing scope, Tom is arguing quality. Logos has concentrated on scope first and many users are clamoring for quality improvements.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/182246#Comment_182246

For me, I take Bob Pritchet's statement about the issue being with WPF and not L4 as passing the buck. I think Bob needs (and wants) to hear what we have to say about L4. So, I am going to share what I heard when I read Bob's statement, "It is not our fault that L4 is a substandard product, the problem belongs with Microsoft." I know that same people would say, "Wow, that was harsh." But this is how I took Bob's statement, and I think Bob needs (and wants) to hear our (good and bad) feedback.

Having been an IT professional who sometimes got yelled at by users, I understand exactly what you are saying and believe that the vast majority of users agree with you. However, I don't see Bob as "passing the buck" but rather as having been suckered by Microsoft. I had a colleague who changed positions and built a product based on Microsoft Access only to discover that it did not scale well i.e. it worked well on a small number of test users but when you tried to let everyone use it, it couldn't handle the job. Microsoft promised that the next release would solve the problem but ... my colleague was demoted before that happened. I suspect that Logos is in a similar situation with WPF. Only Microsoft has more motivation to make WPF work.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't complain to Logos - you should. It just means you should have a wee bit of sympathy while you complain.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/182307#Comment_182307

However the overall product IMO is far from sub-standard.

Fred, I mainly use Logos for my sermon prep, and I rely on my notes tremendously. If I cannot use L4 for my basic needs, why would I even try to use the other features, tools, ...?

As I told Bob, the note function in L4 is one of three reasons why I still (have to) use L3.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/182412#Comment_182412

Having been an IT professional who sometimes got yelled at by users, I understand exactly what you are saying and believe that the vast majority of users agree with you. However, I don't see Bob as "passing the buck" but rather as having been suckered by Microsoft. I had a colleague who changed positions and built a product based on Microsoft Access only to discover that it did not scale well i.e. it worked well on a small number of test users but when you tried to let everyone use it, it couldn't handle the job. Microsoft promised that the next release would solve the problem but ... my colleague was demoted before that happened. I suspect that Logos is in a similar situation with WPF. Only Microsoft has more motivation to make WPF work.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't complain to Logos - you should. It just means you should have a wee bit of sympathy while you complain.

Hi MJ.,

Your post about Microsoft reminded me of the Frog and Scorpion Parable.

Still, I have a hard time that this issue did not come up in their QA testing, and they disregarded this issue.

Because I do not know anything about WPF (Windows Presentation Foundation), so I did some research on it. While it was hard to find reviews of WPF, this is what I found about the latest release of WPF: "too late - the audience has already departed," " Issues included the large memory footprint of a WPF application," and "in fact, for a long time Microsoft itself advised against using WPF for line of business applications."

If I remember correctly, someone said that this was new technology from Microsoft. The above poster stated also said this, "Long-term Microsoft platform users have learned to be cautious about any technology that is not much used within Microsoft itself. WPF was a great example."

The poster went on to say some good things about WPF, "WPF is maturing to become an excellent development framework."

Based on my quick research on WPF and Bob's statement about this issue, "[we] don't have much hope other than faster machines. (I'm very surprised you're experiencing the problem with your specs.)," I am wondering why this platform was selected knowing that most computers in congregations are not "state of the art computers." I even know of a two congregations that has an office computer that still has a floppy drive.

It just means you should have a wee bit of sympathy while you complain.

Sorry MJ., I do not have any sympathy, just pain when it comes to L4.

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/182745#Comment_182745

However the overall product IMO is far from sub-standard.

Fred, I mainly use Logos for my sermon prep, and I rely on my notes tremendously. If I cannot use L4 for my basic needs, why would I even try to use the other features, tools, ...?

As I told Bob, the note function in L4 is one of three reasons why I still (have to) use L3.

I too use L4 for sermon prep each week. I normally create at least two, sometimes three new note files each week. I have been frustrated at times with the performance of the notefiles but have learned a few things that make them tolerable. I generally try to limit the number of resources I have open when I am taking notes. One help was to create a different layout for each step in my study and prep process. For example when I am just reading through the passage I have 3-5 bibles open along with the notefile and sometimes the highlighting tool. Then when I move into another step in my process I have a different layout for each step that includes only those resources I typically use for that particular step. This seems to help.

As I said, I appreciate and share your concern regarding the notes feature and I have confidence that Logos will work to improve the performance in that area. I do not usually create sermon outlines or other material using notes primarily because I prefer to have the performance and functionality of my word processor for that task.

My experience with Logos has been nothing but positive, especially when I have had a problem with their product. I have no reason to doubt that this is a concern for them as well and they will address it when they have a solution.