What is going on?

Does anyone else feel frustration and disappointment with Logos for Mac? I am not criticizing Logos' intentions, but intentions do not equal product satisfaction.

Logos 3 for Mac was never finished (broken promise) and after a year of Logos 4 for Mac it now continually crashes (Beta 5). Old unlocks are lost in Logos 4 and some books work in Logos 4 but not Logos 3. Do you have any answers to these issues other than "Check the Forums" or spend $$$ for Parallels and Windows???

Logos between your 26 Alpha's and now 5 Beta's with no stable workable product and your decision to to be tight lipped about updates or work progress or just exactly how long is "soon"... You owe your Mac customers at the very least if not more, an apology and real explanation about what is going on with product development.

Sincerely, Allen

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David Mitchell

Perhaps you could post more details about the specific difficulties you're having?

Many people are able to run the app just fine on a day-to-day basis. If you're encountering bugs, the only way that we can fix them is if you help us track them down.

As for your complaint about old unlocks, nothing should be lost in Logos 4—customer service should be able to sort that out if you call them.

Wes Saad

Logos between your 26 Alpha's and now 5 Beta's with no stable workable product and your decision to to be tight lipped about updates or work progress or just exactly how long is "soon"... You owe your Mac customers at the very least if not more, an apology and real explanation about what is going on with product development.

I'm not sure what's behind this comment. I've had no real complaints about the process, though there are some things I wish would get more attention than others. On the whole, I've been pleased with the progress. The experience with Libronix 1 for Mac was certainly frustrating and I do think Logos made several mistakes with that, but the experience with Logos 4 for Mac has been good.

A stable product does not yet exist, but recent progress should certainly show Logos is moving in the right direction, and every update brings improvements. I can do pretty much all my work in the Mac version (use the Mac version exclusively at home, fire up my virtual machine at the office simply because I have it installed and it gives me access to the PC Beta version) and there aren't many circumstances that cause me to crash. For me, the biggest issue right now is speed. Scrolling is still too slow, and some other parts of the program are not as responsive as I'd like, but these issues will get cleared up as the beta progresses.

What particular issues are you having, and where are you encountering crashes? Post more information about your problems. It may help reveal bugs in the software and will help everyone that uses Logos 4 Mac.

Allen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160299#Comment_160299

My Logos books go all the way back to the days of floppies. And it was customer service who told me that due to license agreements that some things are not available with the newer Logos product...

Also, I don't know the "many people" who run Logos without bugs, but I do know "many people" do encounter bugs. Other post in the forums bear this out. I have read them...

As to my overall question... Does Logos have an answer to that???

It is insincere to ignore the fact that Logos 3 was abandoned and never finished and Logos 4 is buggy and not finished after a year... You may ignore this fact, but I do not.

Allen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160315#Comment_160315

Also, I was told in the past by customer service that some books work in L4 but not L3 did I misunderstand... or is this correct?

Wes Saad

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160315#Comment_160315

It is insincere to ignore the fact that Logos 3 was abandoned and never finished and Logos 4 is buggy and not finished after a year... You may ignore this fact, but I do not.

So help make it not buggy. Complaining and demanding information will not make development proceed one day faster. Receiving a timetable from Logos will not make it go faster (and timetables in software development are generally of little value anyway). Providing information about the bugs you encounter *will* help it go faster.

So, which will it be?

Wes Saad

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160320#Comment_160320

Also, I was told in the past by customer service that some books work in L4 but not L3 did I misunderstand... or is this correct?

Some resources in L4 do not work in L3, such as the new Biblical People, Places & Things. As far as the books themselves, as far as I am aware, all books should still open in L3, though it may be more difficult to get them in L3.

Mike Aubrey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160320#Comment_160320

Also, I was told in the past by customer service that some books work in L4 but not L3 did I misunderstand... or is this correct?

Which books were they?

Thomas Ball

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160315#Comment_160315

Allen:

Echoing David's request. Could you specify what exactly it is you are having problems with? What are you attempting to do but are unable to accomplish?

Cameron Watters (Faithlife)

Logos 3 for Mac was never finished (broken promise) and after a year of Logos 4 for Mac it now continually crashes (Beta 5).

Any crash we know about, we will fix. Most users who experience crashers post their logs to the forum and we track down the issue and fix it. At least 3 Mac developers and a Mac support tech are in these forums following up with users. You've stated in the past that you typically find forums useless. Our forums aren't typical. If you report a crashing bug, it is almost certain that you will receive a response directly from a developer, often the developer who will fix that bug.

Old unlocks are lost in Logos 4 and some books work in Logos 4 but not Logos 3.

Any book that works in Logos 4 on Windows should work in Logos 4 on the Mac. If it doesn't, it's a bug, and we'll fix it. If there are intellectual property licensing issues for a particular resource that prevent it from working in Logos 4, that's a publisher relations issue not a technical one. I suspect that the number of resources affected by such issues is incredibly small. Customer support is going to be your best bet for that issue.

Logos between your 26 Alpha's and now 5 Beta's with no stable workable product and your decision to to be tight lipped about updates or work progress or just exactly how long is "soon"... You owe your Mac customers at the very least if not more, an apology and real explanation about what is going on with product development.

I'm not sure how much more communicative we could be. Developers post in the forums daily. We post weekly or bi-weekly updates to the software with relevant release notes. We've been incredibly clear about which features will and will not be included in our release (e.g. Handouts will *not* be included in the initial Mac release). Perhaps the only thing we haven't stated publicly is the date we will actually ship the initial release. That isn't a matter of secrecy so much as it is a function of the non-deterministic nature of software development. Having worked in the software industry for 10 years, I have never seen nor experienced a greater level of transparency about a product's development process than I have experienced as a part of the Logos 4 Mac team.

While the current text of http://www.logos.com/mac/disclaimer has been recently updated to reflect the current state of development, the earlier versions included a very direct apology and acknowledgement of mistakes made with Libronix 1.x (the Mac product that precedes Logos 4 Mac). It also contained multiple paragraphs explaining the reasoning behind the decision to abandon Libronix 1.x development and our plans for Logos 4 Mac.

Mike Binks

Does anyone else feel frustration and disappointment with Logos for Mac?

I must admit that when Libronix 1 was abandoned and a new product announced I was a bit cheesed off. However that passed very quickly as the advantages of L4 became apparent very early on in the Alpha stage.

Logos 3 for Mac was never finished (broken promise) and after a year of Logos 4 for Mac it now continually crashes (Beta 5).

Strangely I must have missed Logos 3 for Mac, and I thought that I was paying attention. However on the whole I have been fortunate with the latest Beta's most problems seem to have a work round and the list of problems gets significantly shorter each iteration. I have been doing all my sermon prep with L4Mac for many months now and while I do have the occasional crash it certainly isn't a 'continuous' experience.

Old unlocks are lost in Logos 4 and some books work in Logos 4 but not Logos 3.

As I said I have no experience of Logos 3 but I am sure I recall a promise on the web site that assures customers that they will never have to pay for the same resource twice - but I may be wrong about that. i guess that for some of the older purchases it might not be possible to incorporate some of the newest indexing features - but the original book and the original features should still be there for you.

Do you have any answers to these issues other than "Check the Forums" or spend $$ for Parallels and Windows???

If, at this stage of the game the second part of your quote is an answer that you have actually received then it is the wrong answer. As far as I am aware everyone who has gone through the simple trouble shooting steps recommended by our developers has been able to get up and running with a workable system. Of course not everyone wants to mess with Alpha and Beta Software - that is a decision for each individual.

Logos between your 26 Alpha's and now 5 Beta's with no stable workable product

...

Many of us have a workable product, stability could and is being improved but L4Mac is no lame duck even in its current state.

You owe your Mac customers at the very least if not more, an apology and real explanation about what is going on with product development.

I think that early on we got an apology for the mistakes made with Libronix 1 and the promise that considerable resources would he deployed on the Mac Product. The forum receives great support from the Development Staff (often over and above the call of duty) and I am pretty satisfied with the updates on product development.

Overall very little of what you complain about is applicable to my experience. However I hope that L4 comes up to the standard you expect fairly quickly. In the meantime you might help some of the other users by following up with specific problems and the associated information to help rectify them.

tootle pip

Mike

Dewayne Davis

Does anyone else feel frustration and disappointment with Logos for Mac? I am not criticizing Logos' intentions, but intentions do not equal product satisfaction.

Not even a little bit. I am actually quite excited. They left intentions behind a long time ago.

Logos 3 for Mac was never finished (broken promise)

Hardly a broken promise. L4Mac is rapidly approaching equality with L4Win as we speak. I would be very disappointed if all I had right now was a product in Mac equal to Libronix.

and after a year of Logos 4 for Mac it now continually crashes (Beta 5).

Actually it is quite impressive to be where we are right now. Of course there are still bugs. That is why they call it Beta.

Old unlocks are lost in Logos 4

There are a number of books no longer available for purchase due to license agreements. But they are still available to those who already have the license. You just can't purchase new licenses.

some books work in Logos 4 but not Logos 3.

Yes, and Blue Ray won't play in my DVD player either, but that hardly makes me angry at Sony. The new resources are made for the new technology. They wouldn't work in Logos for Mac either.

Logos between your 26 Alpha's and now 5 Beta's with no stable workable product

Actually it is quite stable. And bugs are being squashed daily with updates weekly and sometimes more often than that.They have an impressive logging mechanism in place that has proven quite effective.

your decision to to be tight lipped about updates or work progress or just exactly how long is "soon"

I think your frustration and others in the past confirms the correct decision to not make empty promises. But rather that "soon", more accurate would be "as soon as is unreasonably possible". These guys have been awesome in answering questions and directly dealing with every problem quickly, both on the clock and off. And I am not sure they are ever actually off the clock. They respond morning, noon, and night and even on the weekends. I really don't know how they do it.

You owe your Mac customers at the very least if not more, an apology and real explanation about what is going on with product development.

This was hashed over many times in the past, and they have more that covered the apology and explanation. I am sure others here will help find those posts and set your mind at ease. We are on the verge of a great product that far exceeds the promise that was made in regards to L3. I hope you will join us in Beta testing and reporting bugs to push this over the hill.

Allen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160338#Comment_160338

Guys...

I think we are missing the forrest for the trees. Let's try this.... I have listed my questions numerically.

(1) Was Logos 3 ever completed? Did Logos stop development of Logos 3 for Mac?

If I remember correctly... If in fact Logos did halt development of L3... I seem to remember the reason was to put all energy into L4 development...???

(2) With no completed L3... Do we after a year of "soon", have a stable workable L4?

You may need to read some of the other forums (not my post) about Beta 5 crashes before you answer this one.

Tom Philpot (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160352#Comment_160352

And I am not sure they are ever actually off the clock. They respond morning, noon, and night and even on the weekends. I really don't know how they do it.

Subscribe to the forums and have your email delivered to your mobile phone... (*And care a lot about what you do*)

Dewayne Davis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160358#Comment_160358

(*And care a lot about what you do*)

You guys make this obvious! [Y]

Wes Saad

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160353#Comment_160353

I think we are missing the forrest for the trees. Let's try this.... I have listed my questions numerically.

Allen, you know the answers to these questions. Why bother asking them? (though when was "soon" promised for a finished product?) They have nothing to do with where Logos is now. Logos has been open about everything. They have apologized for their failings with the original Mac product. The current Mac product is well under way. Bugs exist, but they have not stopped people from using the current Mac product - except, evidently, you. Now, will you help us and tell us what problems you personally have experienced with the current beta?

Mike Aubrey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160353#Comment_160353

(2) With no completed L3... Do we after a year of "soon", have a stable workable L4?

You may need to read some of the other forums (not my post) about Beta 5 crashes before you answer this one.

Allan, November to August isn't a year.

Pierre-David Pfister

Hi Allen,

If you want to run L4 for Windows on your Mac and not spend the $$$ for parallels or vmware, you could try-out the free virtualbox (http://www.virtualbox.org/). Although I haven't been using L4 with virtualbox a lot, I've tried, and it does run. You still need a Windows license though...

-Pierre

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160353#Comment_160353

You may need to read some of the other forums (not my post) about Beta 5 crashes before you answer this one.

What crashes have you personally experienced? Where are your logs? Are you really interested in a finished Mac product, or do you just want to vent? You have repeatedly been asked for specifics, and all we hear are generalities, some of which has no basis in fact.

B. J. Clarke

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160363#Comment_160363

Allen,

I don't think we are missing the forest for the trees. I think you are missing the answers to your questions for the emotions and frustrations you are feeling right now.

I can understand how frustrating it must be for you. I'm sure you feel like others in the forum don't understand your level of frustration. Therefore, any comment that appears to defend Logos right now just makes you even more frustrated because you feel that your frustrations are being invalidated and ignored.

No one has ever said that Logos is perfect. In fact, they have admitted as much in their apologies. They have been very transparent about what to expect with Alpha and Beta software. Therefore, it is not surprising to read that some are reporting bugs and crashes in the forums. This is to be expected in Alpha and Beta software development.

It is easy to read all of the posts in the forums about bugs and crashes and assume that this is happening to everyone. However, the majority of people are not going to take time out of their busy schedules to send a post announcing that all is well. Occasionally, you will read posts of gratitude, but most folks are not going to post unless they are having a problem.

It would be improper reasoning to go to a jam-packed doctor's office and to assume that the whole world is sick just because the majority of the people in the waiting room are sick. Likewise, the majority of people in the Mac forum room are dealing with a bug, but that doesn't mean the whole L4 Mac family is infected.

Furthermore, if you are physically sick with a bug and you refuse to go to the doctor, it is useless to complain about not getting better. The doctor has to be able to get a close look at you to be able to diagnose your problem and fix it. Likewise, if you've got an L4M bug and you refuse to post your logs for the "doctors" to diagnose and fix your problem, it really does no good to complain about not getting better.

Sometimes, when I am really frustrated, I have to just walk away from what is making me frustrated. I often find that once I've had time to let my emotions cool down, I see things in a different light. Why not take a break from the forum for a bit, and later post some of your specific bugs? You may be surprised at what the "doctors" in the Mac family can do for you.

Jason York

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160353#Comment_160353

Guys...

I think we are missing the forrest for the trees. Let's try this.... I have listed my questions numerically.

(1) Was Logos 3 ever completed? Did Logos stop development of Logos 3 for Mac?

If I remember correctly... If in fact Logos did halt development of L3... I seem to remember the reason was to put all energy into L4 development...???

(2) With no completed L3... Do we after a year of "soon", have a stable workable L4?

You may need to read some of the other forums (not my post) about Beta 5 crashes before you answer this one.

Allen,

Logos 3 was completed as far as I understand, it was out for years before logos 4 ever came out. The mac version may not have become feature complete in comparison to logos 3 for pc, but it is fully stable and functional. Would you rather have had the dev team make that feature complete and have the mac version be still on version 3 and the pc be on version 4? No one likes mac versions of software to be less capable than the pc counterpart, which means that the dev team had to first make version 1.2 stable and functional, which they did, and then transition to making the best mac bible software out there, version 4.

The development of logos mac version 1 was halted because they wanted to have the product be completely comparable to logos 4, which I and most everyone else appreciates, that was coming out for the pc. Logos 1.2 is still fully functional if you want to use it until the mac version of logos 4 is perfect.

I remember when logos announced that they were going to make a mac product and I was quite excited. Although it took a long time, they followed through with a functional but somewhat basic product, version 1.2.

But, what you may not remember is that the reason why it took so long to come out with their first mac product was because back in 2006 apple switched from using motorola processors (the G4/G5) to intel, which meant that all software that was going to be compatible with apple in the future had to be rewritten for the new intel system.(essentially requiring software development to start over.) (that wasn't logos fault and neither was it apple's, its simply a time consuming transition into much better technology) If you want innovation there will always be rough transitions, wether that be analogue to digital television (making elderly people buy and set up a digital converter box) or any other technological advance.

it hasn't been a year yet on logos 4 mac development and my guess is we are very close from having all the bugs ironed out. Using software is a choice, if you don't want to use beta software, then wait a month until things are more complete, if you would rather use other company bible software then do it. I came from quick-verse, which literally never fixed bugs or typos and didn't have a forum to get quick answers directly from the developers. I would rather use version 1.2 than quick-verse or any other bible software out there for mac because logos is a way better company with way better customer service and a real method for getting things fixed even if it isn't instant. I have never known a company who so thoroughly and quickly releases bug fixes and even fixes for typos.

I realize, its our nature to want things right away and to want them to work perfectly, but quality products take time, and logos is doing a fine job of making the highest quality bible software out there. I have now graduated from bible school and was really only able to use logos minimally, because it was in early alpha,on my final projects for school, and I would have loved a fully functional product, but thats life, and now that I am out of school I will be able to use logos for all of my studies and sermon prep, which is awesome.

what other company lets you talk directly to the developers about issues and problems? We are greatly blessed to have such access to helping the progress of logos 4.

Allen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160389#Comment_160389

I didn't think anyone would actually give an answer to the 2 questions I posted... You only wish to as BJ put it "defend" Logos and pretend my points are not valid. I can't believe that you guys in good conscience can ignore the obviousness of my questions and have the attitude of "What is my problem" when I point them out.

Thank you BJ for at least acknowledging some things in your post. I will give you today's specifics...

My first crash was when I was opening NLT after I had opened ESV and NASB in the same window.

My second crash was when I was opening various dictionary resources 4 of them.

And my third crash was when I was trying to display the interlinear in ESV.

All these happened today. Each time loosing all work and windows I had opened at the time.

Allen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160365#Comment_160365

Michael Aubrey,

[Please forgive my over statement, I did not mean to confuse my point. It has been 10 months not 12.]

The point was L3 was not completed and L4 "after 10 months" is still buggy and crashes (not just for me but for many others, check out the forums...) Those are facts whether we chose to acknowledge them or not.

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160432#Comment_160432

The point was L3 was not completed and L4 "after 10 months" is still buggy and crashes (not just for me but for many others, check out the forums...) Those are facts whether we chose to acknowledge them or not.

Allen, it's still beta. But if you want to work with the beta program, then post your logs when you get a crash. What more do you want? A refund?

Cameron Watters (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160423#Comment_160423

I didn't think anyone would actually give an answer to the 2 questions I posted...

I'm confused about which questions weren't answered.

Libronix 1.2.2 (there was no such product as "Logos 3" for the Mac) development was stopped. At the time it was stopped, it lacked many features that were present in Libronix DLS 3 on Windows. Efforts were instead focused on Logos 4 Mac. This was covered in explicit detail in the original status update regarding Logos on the Mac in November written by the CEO. Moreover, Logos 4 Windows still lacks some features that were available in Libronix DLS 3, including PBB, Sentence Diagramer (coming in 4.1 on Windows), etc. I think that should cover question #1 (which was actually 2 separate questions).

At the present moment Logos 4 Mac is at Beta 6 (released within the last couple of hours). Is it 100% stable? No. Is it bug free? No. Is it workable? I suspect that's an individual criteria, the definition of which differs. A number of people in this thread indicate that it is workable for them. However, this line of discussion suggests other questions: Will Logos 4 Mac ever be 100% bug free? No. Is Logos 4 Windows bug free? No. At some point, we'll declare it "bug free enough" and release that as a stable version.

My first crash was when I was opening NLT after I had opened ESV and NASB in the same window.

My second crash was when I was opening various dictionary resources 4 of them.

And my third crash was when I was trying to display the interlinear in ESV.

All these happened today. Each time loosing all work and windows I had opened at the time.

This is progress. Unfortunately, nobody else has reported these specific issues and you've neglected to upload your logs which means that, unless they happen for me (which they don't), it's impossible for me to determine the underlying cause of the issue and incredibly difficult to fix it. If you upload your logs (see the instructions in the FAQ, which is linked in my signature) I'll happily do what I can to track down the issue(s).

B. J. Clarke

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160432#Comment_160432

Allen,

If you go back and read the other posts, I think you will discover that your two questions were answered. They may not have been answered with the answers you were looking for, but I do believe that other members of the forum took the time to at least try to answer your questions.

Anyway, I don't want to rankle you. I suppose we could debate all night whether your questions were or were not answered. But such a debate wouldn't really get us any closer to solving your current problem with the software.

So, let's try to move forward to actually finding a solution. I am not a programmer so I do not have any expertise to offer on why the problems you mentioned are happening to you.

However, I do know how you can move toward a positive solution. Pardon the doctor analogy again, but it just makes sense here. If you verbally describe to the doctor what your symptoms are he may not be able to know what is causing the problem without an X-Ray or an MRI. These tools enable him to get a look at what's going on inside so that he can pinpoint the problem.

Likewise, when you post your logs it is like giving the developers an X-Ray or MRI of what is going on inside the program so that they can pinpoint the source of the problem.

If you look at the main page of the L4 Mac Forum, you will notice the second item down lists a post that has to do with how to report bugs and send logs to the developers. Joe Miller did an excellent tutorial video to explain how to do this.

It would only take you about 5-7 minutes max to post your logs and send them. If this 5 minutes or so puts you on the road to finding a fix, I'm sure you would agree that it is time well spent. It couldn't hurt to try. Why not send the devs "an MRI" of your problems in L4M?

Allen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160397#Comment_160397

Jason York,

I realize that using software is a choice. And that Logos 4 is in development. However don't forget Logos 3 was not sold as a software in development. I have spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars on Logos software ( over $1000 but less than $2000) so your insinuation to using Logos is a choice is not helpful...

Also, I'm not sure but I think L3 for Mac came after Intel chips for Apple...............

Also, I did not realize that my raising the issue of L3 not being finished and L4 after 10 months still having major problems is "wanting things right away"... If your time line of 2006 is correct for the mac software until now August 2010 then I think 4 years is not being impatient for a final mac product... which to my knowledge, we do not have as of this date.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160389#Comment_160389

Well done Mr. Clark, very well done.

Rusty+

Paul Gisbourne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160423#Comment_160423

I will give you today's specifics...

My first crash was when I was opening NLT after I had opened ESV and NASB in the same window.

My second crash was when I was opening various dictionary resources 4 of them.

And my third crash was when I was trying to display the interlinear in ESV.

All these happened today. Each time loosing all work and windows I had opened at the time.

Hi Allen,

I'm sorry to hear that you are finding L4Mac difficult to use, if not unusable at times. I too have seen the posts regarding the crashes that people have been experiencing during their use of L4Mac.

However personally I haven't experienced the crashes that you have outlined or others that have posted on here. For me I find L4Mac to very useable, like others I do sermon prep with the product, as well as research work for essays and daily personal study. Furthermore, I don't run a windows parallel, exclusively using L4Mac.

I joined the ride some way down the Alpha process and have been amazed at the rate of development of the program.

I feel your being a little over critical if you expect a fully functional stable program within 10-12months, it just doesn't happen. It is also worth bearing in mind that L4Mac has been a complete rewrite from the ground up, and the Mac side of things though sharing the same base code has to have its UI written from scratch. These aren't quick easy things to achieve.

Yeah frustrations come in and like others have said, including Cameron and David, post your logs. Let the development team help you and everyone else to get L4Mac more stable. It is far better to be a part of the process than to be moaning about it.

In fact I think it was an incredibly brave decision by Logos to halt production of the previous Mac product and go grounds up on a rewrite, not only that, but to do all this in the public domain. Each day we find and report the issues we face we are all helping to speed along the process and create a better product.

Every Blessing

Paul

Richard Teschendorf

I feel your frustration, but suggest you document your crashes per the instructions provided as they be unique to your system. Personally, I use L4 for Mac several times a day and rarely (and I mean RARELY) experience a crash. I haven't had to report a bug in many months. So...the product is already pretty stable for some users. Note: I am perhaps more patient because my Logos experience just started last November with an early alpha. I don't have your history with their earlier product(s).

Roger Feenstra

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160443#Comment_160443

Some things in life we simply have to get over. It's Logos 4 now, Allen. Post your logs please and move on.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160423#Comment_160423

My first crash was when I was opening NLT after I had opened ESV and NASB in the same window.

My second crash was when I was opening various dictionary resources 4 of them.

And my third crash was when I was trying to display the interlinear in ESV.

Appreciate crash descriptions, wish zip file(s) were posted with log files, especially console messages. Forum http://community.logos.com/forums/t/6731.aspx has excellent log posting tutorial. Console Messages includes Logos logging messages and Mac OS X diagnostic information, needed to determine if crashes have different causes.

One possible cause for all 3 crashes is too many programs open => forum http://community.logos.com/forums/p/21204/159177.aspx => Kudos to Logos Development "Doctors", learned to monitor Active Memory usage. Already configured Activity Monitor to show memory usage on dock - now pay attention to green and yellow sizes - if Green too small, spinning beach balls happen. If Yellow too large (many open programs), can easily crash Logos 4 Mac.

By the way, many years ago learned "Never let anything mechanical know you are in a hurry."

Does anyone else feel frustration and disappointment with Logos for Mac? I am not criticizing Logos' intentions, but intentions do not equal product satisfaction.

Personally No. Do remember disappointment from initial Logos for Mac announcement and shipping 1.* version. Initially delayed purchasing Logos 4 Upgrade since not sure if wanted to participate in Alpha testing. Hindsight 20/20 - should have upgraded to Logos 4 sooner; glad Logos extended Logos 4 Upgrade pricing promotion. Like some other active Logos 4 Mac forum posters, have enjoyed Alpha and Beta releases - amazed by Logos 4 Mac feature exposure and overall usability. Wiki has Logos 4 Mac History page => http://wiki.logos.com/Mac_Beta_Release_Notes_and_History Also quite Thankful for licensing change so a library user can use Logos 4 on a variety of devices: iMac, iPad, iPhone, & Windows.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Mike Zimmer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160463#Comment_160463

Allen, If you could post your logs, I am convinced that the developer team will get on it. I have not experienced crashes you have encountered. I would be upset as well, if I were to lose the work that I had done. This week alone we have had two beta releases. I have beta tested other software and find Logos to be very responsive when the logs are posted. It could be something unique to your installation that they can help you sort out.

Allen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160463#Comment_160463

Roger,

If my post irritates you, I'm sorry. Please ignore them. You don't have to read them or reply to them.

Neal Price

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160554#Comment_160554

........ and after several people practically begging you to post logs, we still wait .......

I had issues as well this week, but the developers jumped on my issues very quickly after I posted my logs. It takes a minute, but it's the ONLY way they can effectively help us.

We help them help us...

I'm VERY new to Logos, so I can't relate to what everyone is talking about with L3 and Libronix and all of that stuff. All I can say is I am VERY pleased.

R. Pared

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160580#Comment_160580

Since it was mentioned that often people don't post their good news, but simply their problems, I'll go on the record and state that I have been using Logos 4 Mac exclusively for the last several months and have found it to be very useable for my needs. Sure a few crashes from time to time, which is to be expected. I posted my logs and am very appreciative to the development team who responded to many of them personally. I echo the amazement that we have such direct contact with them via this forum. I hope that continues for the foreseeable future. Thank you again Mac Developers.

Thomas Wooded

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160389#Comment_160389

OK, my two cents...

I had a stable, working version of another company's bible software that was made only for the Mac. When I got a newer laptop that did not run the older Mac OS 9, I had to decide... do I buy a new version of what I had, or look at something new?

Thank God I found some info somewhere about Logos and checked it out! As a currently enrolled theology student, I decided to take some of the financial aid I had left after tuition and invest it in the Scholar's Library. (More expensive than upgrading my old software, but it was the right way to go!)

I went into this with eyes open. I saw that I could use the old Libronix 1 for Mac, or I could try the Alpha of L4 for Mac. Since my new Mac laptop runs Windows as well as Mac OS, I installed both the Mac Alpha and the L4 for Windows version. At first, the Mac Alpha was just kind of an unusable novelty. But, as the Alphas continued to arrive every week or two, it got better and better. By the time the Mac version went into Beta, I found that I just didn't need to use the Windows version any more. My Mac Beta copy does what I want it to, and doesn't crash very often. (I have commercial release software of other kinds and browsers that are the latest version that crash more than L4 for Mac does.)

Are there things that the Mac Beta doesn't do that I wish it did? Sure. Am I disappointed that some features like handouts will have to wait for the Mac? Yes.

But, the Mac Beta I'm using now blows away the software I used to use and anything else that I looked into.

To the Mac Development Team: Thanks for all the hard work. L4 is awesome! I can't wait to see what will be in the next Beta when it arrives in a week or two.*

*Updates every week or two! How cool is that?

</rant>

Nathan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160554#Comment_160554

If my post irritates you, I'm sorry. Please ignore them. You don't have to read them or reply to them.

Ha! Allen you got snookered into thinking that L4 Mac was a release version....because you don't take the time and effort to post your "logs" your bugs do not exist! You have NO problems it is a figment of your imagination. "Parity" is around the corner.... Hey just run the "learning to use Biblical Greek and Hebrew" videos...they work on the MAC version just exactly like they do on the PC version....

Try the Changing LORD to Yahweh visual filter on the MAC version it works exactly as the PC version... Notes are great...every two weeks you get to be a guinea pig. Great let the Flames begin.... LogosMacHeads take your best shots....

How about the SIMPLEST of additions to L4 MAC.

Ok <grin> I'm being abrasive. I DO understand his frustration. So don't just FLAME him for goodness sake! Yes I like the MAC version in some ways way better (can you say contrasty). But if you want to use ALL of the power of L4 you gotta run a VM on your mac.... Parity someday..oh wait L4 PC is still in development. I'm glad I'm not on the L4 Mac programming team, so much pressure!

Donovan R. Palmer

Logos 3 for Mac was never finished (broken promise) and after a year of Logos 4 for Mac it now continually crashes (Beta 5).

Allen - I think if you search these forums, your sentiments were particularly echoed at the turn of the year by many Mac users. There was great disappointment that version 1.2 was not going to be finished after years of waiting, then to add further to the dynamic L4 for Windows was being released with a promise that L4 Mac would eventually achieve feature parity. Given the history of L4 Mac, this news was greeted with some level of dismay and in old internet terms 'flames'. (though we Christians don't do that do we?) [;)]

This year though has seen HUGE progress, more so than anything in the history of development of Logos for Mac of any version. With that many, including myself, can see this product becoming more mature. What is obvious is that behind the scenes Logos has been able to assemble a development team to genuinely be a player in the market. Before with L4 Mac, they were using a sub-contractor to do their development.

I'm pretty fussy any more about buggy software and hence my move to the Mac platform. I just want my computer to work, even if that means I pay a bit more. If the 'gold release' of L4 for Mac is buggy, I will be one of the first to express my disappointment. However, given we are now in the beta stage, I accept that there are bugs and am lending a hand in a limited way to help squash them.

While this may be 'hope deferred' given your valid feelings of frustration, I genuinely think by the end of the year we will be turning a significant corner in Logos on the Mac platform. I only think it is going to get better as the Mac market continues to experience growth. My suggestion is hang in there as I believe a full, stable release of the software is not that far away.

Nathan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160620#Comment_160620

I'm pretty fussy any more about buggy software and hence my move to the Mac platform. I just want my computer to work, even if that means I pay a bit more. If the 'gold release' of L4 for Mac is buggy, I will be one of the first to express my disappointment. However, given we are now in the beta stage, I accept that there are bugs and am lending a hand in a limited way to help squash them.

While this may be 'hope deferred' given your valid feelings of frustration, I genuinely think by the end of the year we will be turning a significant corner in Logos on the Mac platform. I only think it is going to get better as the Mac market continues to experience growth. My suggestion is hang in there as I believe a full, stable release of the software is not that far away.

SERIOUSLY...thank you for a concise realistic response. Kudos

Pastor Lloy B. Stevens

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160389#Comment_160389

I too have been using Logos since the floppy disk days. Logos for Mac, even in beta, is much better than ever before. I have been using the Mac version exclusively for sermon prep for several months. I am well pleased with the progress the development team has made and am rejoicing that we were allowed to get a hold of the program in its early stages. I did not say the program was perfect, but I am greatly pleased with its overall usability.

- Pastor Stevens

Allen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160588#Comment_160588

In your effort to give kudos, don't misinterpret my comments.

I do like Logos... I have spent lots and lots of money on Logos software over the years. And I do think the mac developers are working hard...!

I voiced the obvious over-arching issue... Since the time of the first mac release 2007 ??? until now... ten months into L4 for mac release... We do not have a completed product. But, "soon" right...

Let me give you an Analogy--------

You go into a grocery store and fill up your cart with items. You then go to the front of the store to checkout. When you get there, you see only one register open with a very, very long line. There are other employees in the store doing other things... "stocking shelves with new product, improving displays, greeting new customers, etc..." In the mean time you are still waiting........ After a very long wait, you are told there is a problem with the register and that the line is going to be shut down, so you move to another check out line, but that line is just as slow. So, you continue to wait even longer. A person in the line complains to management (not the cashier!) that the wait is getting ridiculous. And other people in the line say things like, "Shopping here is a choice...<insinuation>" or "if you would just hand the item to the cashier with the bar code out, things would go much faster" or "defending the cashiers hard work --- even when they have not come into scrutiny" All the while the root issue is management decisions, but no one is willing or able to look past the "mac developers" I mean the cashier at the check out counter to acknowledge there is a problem.

I have never once criticized the mac developers. Never! So to defend them is like defending "Mom, Baseball, and Apple Pie". Let me go on record as saying, I love all four of them.

Like all analogies, if you push them far enough they will fall apart. But, if you must then go ahead.

It is funny that almost all the responders have "dog piled" on me... [Thank you Nathan Barnes for being willing to face the "flamers"...]

I knew at the beginning how this was kinda going to go. But when I'm right, I'm not afraid of the masses. Nothing I have said, while it may not be popular, is inaccurate or untrue.

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160664#Comment_160664

Allen,

I do not wish to dog pile you. I do believe that are a lot more than 4 Mac developers. At one point Bob (or someone else) said that Mac team was bigger than the Windows team. As I don't know how much you've read the forums but there has been significant discussion with Logos employees; on http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_Speaks there is a section of statements by Bob Pritchett and some developers about why the Mac is in the state it is. The statements are little on the old side but I think they relate to your question.

Kurt Trucksess

Sorry to respond with a slight attitude. I too have used logos from the beginning. Logos for windows was great and always continued to improve. Logos for Mac in the first version was a poor implementation that had a limited potential.

I know we went a long time before things were turned around. Yes, during that time I too was frustrated and felt abandoned. I now realize that somebody at Logos made the call that they needed to start over from the ground up with Logos 4 and create a unified Windows/Mac system. That was a tough call because it halted obvious forward progress from the customer perspective on the Mac version but IT WAS THE RIGHT CALL! Good leadership decision!

As a development team, after you created the base framework, which takes a long time but no user sees it or uses it, you need to made a choice where you will put your efforts for interface development. Given the huge amount of Windows users, Logos wisely developed that interface first. Also Windows development tools are much easier to work with than Mac development tools. The Mac interface is MUCH trickier to code.

That being said, I am shocked that the Mac development team has progressed the Mac product as rapidly as they have. I take my hats off to them. Incredible work! Yes, there are occasional crashed but I use the Mac version daily and have abandoned the Windows and Parallels solution since the later Alphas. The software is now quite stable. These guys are doing a wonderful job. By the way, the reason you read about all the crashes in the Mac forum is because the forum is where you go with problem, not success stories. I believe there are hundreds of people running the mac version with much success.

As for responsiveness, through this forum, the Mac team is the most responsive I have ever seen. Great job! Way beyond my expectations.

OK, I have done my ranting. I can not criticize the development team, as a former software writer, I have a lot of empathy for their situation. They are doing a great job.

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160664#Comment_160664

I knew at the beginning how this was kinda going to go. But when I'm right, I'm not afraid of the masses. Nothing I have said, while it may not be popular, is inaccurate or untrue.

Is there anything in particular you wanted to accomplish by starting this thread? How can we help?

Dewayne Davis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160432#Comment_160432

Michael Aubrey,

[Please forgive my over statement, I did not mean to confuse my point. It has been 10 months not 12.]

The point was L3 was not completed and L4 "after 10 months" is still buggy and crashes (not just for me but for many others, check out the forums...) Those are facts whether we chose to acknowledge them or not.

Allen,

I do understand your frustration. I think we all do. And it IS valid. I just think that the rest of us have already dealt with it and have moved on. No I am not telling you to do the same. That is just the reality of it. Remember that the biggest part of the problem was due to subcontractor failure. Most companies at that point of the game would have abandoned the project completely, not taken it on themselves, raising the bar as well.

But really, I personally don't think 10 months is a negative statement. After all, the only thing we have to compare with is the Win version. And due to the private Beta process, I really don't know how long it has been since they started working on that platform. But I was under the impression that it was well under way before it was made public. Personally I am quite impressed at where we are. Considering the resources available to put into the Win version, (experience, programmers, customer base, etc...), I think the Mac version was a huge bite to chew (Starting from scratch with no Mac experience at all, limited customer base, etc...). Yet they have put in the effort and made a good showing. Have I mentioned yet that the software itself is free? Kudos!

All that has been said really boils down to this. Do you want to abandon, vent, or get on board. It is your choice. I don't know what hardware you are using, but I feel pretty good in saying that most likely, you can be as pleased in using the software as the rest of us if you will post your logs and let the Devs see what is happening. It might be a simple fix.

B. J. Clarke

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160715#Comment_160715

Allen,

Please answer just one question for me. Why do you refuse to post your logs?

David Buckham

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160353#Comment_160353

Allen,

I think we are missing the forrest for the trees.

Forget the opinions and personal analyzation (is that even a word?). It does no good.

(1) Was Logos 3 ever completed? Did Logos stop development of Logos 3 for Mac?

There was never a Logos 3 for Mac. I think you are referring to Logos 1.2.2 (which is as advanced as it got). Logos 4 (for PC) development was underway before 1.2.2 Mac became an option. The reason wasn't to stop Mac Logos 1.2.2 but to recreate a better version in L4 for Mac. I'm glad for the change. I am willing to say (guess) that L4 would have been stronger, faster and better than anything L1 for Mac would have put out.

I don't know if any software, for what it's worth, is ever really completed. There is always updates and new features to turn on and add. That's progress. That's change. I'm not using DOS anymore or Windows 3.x (well not primarily) because they were not complete, they evolved and changed. Even console gaming systems update their software.

(2) With no completed L3... Do we after a year of "soon", have a stable workable L4?

For me, as "many others" on this thread and other threads on this forum, Beta has been a stable and workable release.

The whole Alpha/Beta experience has had it's frustrations and bumps, but I appreciate the honesty and hard work involved in such. The Logos Mac team has worked hard and, from their twitter feeds, had much fun doing so.

Allen, I don't know if this answers your questions or not, I hope it gives you a different perspective at the least.

all about Christ,

David

Roger Feenstra

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160554#Comment_160554

Roger,

If my post irritates you, I'm sorry. Please ignore them. You don't have to read them or reply to them.

I'm not irritated in the least. You simply don't have credibility (since all your comments are anecdotal, and you post no logs). I'm not sure why others (or me for that matter) are responding to you. It appears you like the attention.

Grace and peace,

Roger

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160846#Comment_160846

Allen,

Please answer just one question for me. Why do you refuse to post your logs?

I also would like to hear the answer to this question.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/160358#Comment_160358

And I am not sure they are ever actually off the clock. They respond morning, noon, and night and even on the weekends. I really don't know how they do it.

Subscribe to the forums and have your email delivered to your mobile phone... (*And care a lot about what you do*)

Tom,

I'm a win guy but I have to thank you and the whole dev team both Mac and Win for your tireless efforts....

I really appreciate your professionalism, and your willingness to tackle a difficult and stressful task with good humor, and aplomb.

thanks a bunch Dev team!