On Pre-Pub Reverse Interlinear Apocrypha
This is the first time we've seen a Reverse Interlinear on Pre-Pub:
English-Greek Reverse Interlinear of the NRSV Apocryphal Texts
http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/7130
Check it out.
Comments
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Michael Aubrey said:
English-Greek Reverse Interlinear of the NRSV Apocryphal Texts
http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/7130
Check it out.
Saw that Mike. Looks worthwhile addition providing you own the pre-requistite resources. Looking at the product comparision chart one would need to own orignal languages, or scholars and upwards to automatically own Septuigant wtih Logos Morphology. Most likely this resource will appeal to that audience but if someone on one of the other libraries was interested in it they could always unlock it or look at upgrading to scholars which in the long run would be the more cost effective option even if they used a payment plan to do the upgrade.
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Andrew McKenzie said:
Looking at the product comparison chart one would need to own orignal languages, or scholars and upwards to automatically own Septuigant wtih Logos Morphology. Most likely this resource will appeal to that audience
I tend to look at this a bit differently. Since my NRSV came with the Deuterocanonicals + ("+" for the Greek and Slavic) I simply assumed that the interlinear would be an interlinear not a partial interlinear. I'm a little surprised it is treated as a separate product - after all 79% of Christians world-wide simply consider it as "standard Bible". Oh well, Logos is definitely moving the right direction in L4 especially in verse mapping. I'm very happy to put my preorder in.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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this is unique...it's not the text itself? Just the interlinear alignment?
I'm not quite sure what's involved in this one...I've never seen anything like it in Logos...
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
this is unique...it's not the text itself? Just the interlinear alignment?
I'm not quite sure what's involved in this one...I've never seen anything like it in Logos...
Its a reverse interlinear. With all reverse interlinears already in Logos base packages, you receive the license for the English translation and the original text in the package and then based on the licensing, you then also receive the linked data between the two texts. This is how the ESV RI works, the NASB RI, NIV, NLT, all of them.
This is simply the first time Logos has ever offered one separate of the base package. In fact, the requirement of having licenses to the texts of the reverse interlinears is the main reason why they have up to this point only been available in base packages. But we didn't know what kind of interest there would be in a reverse interlinear apocrypha, so we decided to pre-pub it.
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MJ. Smith said:
I'm a little surprised it is treated as a separate product
Well, the NT was treated as a "separate product" in a sense, too -- being that it was made into a reverse interlinear by itself back in 2006.
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Michael Aubrey said:
Well, the NT was treated as a "separate product" in a sense, too
I promise to keep the books in Anglican-Lutheran sequence so its separate, not integrated. [:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I promise to keep the books in Anglican-Lutheran sequence so its separate not integrated.
Whew!
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MJ. Smith said:Andrew McKenzie said:
Looking at the product comparison chart one would need to own orignal languages, or scholars and upwards to automatically own Septuigant wtih Logos Morphology. Most likely this resource will appeal to that audience
I tend to look at this a bit differently. Since my NRSV came with the Deuterocanonicals + ("+" for the Greek and Slavic) I simply assumed that the interlinear would be an interlinear not a partial interlinear. I'm a little surprised it is treated as a separate product - after all 79% of Christians world-wide simply consider it as "standard Bible". Oh well, Logos is definitely moving the right direction in L4 especially in verse mapping. I'm very happy to put my preorder in.
Something along the lines of this thought did cross my mind when I saw it on the pre-pub page.
Laying aside that thought though for a moment given the requirements of pre-requites resources which the majority of people attracted to this will already have in their base packages (but maybe not all) I think it is reasonably priced from the amount of work and tagging that will need to happen to produce this resource.
As to whether is will actually show up as a stand alone resource or 'integrate' into our already existent NRSV bible, the prepub page gives the impression it is standalone which I think is a shame. As the following picture suggests the NRSV is begging to have this information added rather than it being in a separate resource. But as a separate resource I guess it is better than what we have at the moment which is also reflected by this picture.
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That's not the only thing missing:
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We still have a ways to go but we are slowly working towards equality. Yes, I've noticed some testing on topics.logos.com that looks like another step is on the way.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Andrew McKenzie said:
As to whether is will actually show up as a stand alone resource or 'integrate' into our already existent NRSV bible, the prepub page gives the impression it is standalone which I think is a shame. As the following picture suggests the NRSV is begging to have this information added rather than it being in a separate resource. But as a separate resource I guess it is better than what we have at the moment which is also reflected by this picture.
Andrew, if you could point me to where the pre-pub page suggests such a thing, I'd like to correct that when I get back to the office tomorrow morning. That was definitely not the intention. This will not be a stand-alone resource. It will fill the gap that you see in the picture you provided.
I had tried to avoid implying the possibility that it was a separate resource with the indented statement:
Restrictions and Resource Requirements:
The English-Greek Reverse Interlinear of the NRSV Apocryphal Texts
will only the available for Logos 4 and higher. It cannot be used in
Libronix 3.0 or earlier. Also, it only includes the linked data for the
Greek and English texts. For this reason, both the New Revised Standard Version and the Septuagint with Logos Morphology are prerequisite resources for its use.Let me know what suggested it was separate and I'll fix it.
MJ. Smith said:That's not the only thing missing:
Actually, MJ, if I may simply repeat you...that is the only thing missing. Fill in the reverse interlinear data and you get the right click information too. The reverse interlinear will fill it all in.
Basically, if you want these holes filled, help Logos get this pre-pub into development!
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Just my opinion, but it seems a bit pricey. Am I out of line?
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Michael Paul said:
Just my opinion, but it seems a bit pricey. Am I out of line?
I think the price is reasonable - it's essentially all new coding rather than "minor" tweaking of a pre-existent mapping.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Michael Paul said:
Just my opinion, but it seems a bit pricey. Am I out of line?
Well, we'd love to offer it at a lower price, but balancing demand vs. cost is always a challenge.
We're basically contracting a scholar to work through align these two texts together because its never been done before. In terms of size, the Apocrypha (especially that presented in the NRSV) is very close to the size of the entire New Testament. That's a lot of Greek and English text to read and link together.
In any case, its still cheaper than most Brill books!
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Michael Aubrey said:
I had tried to avoid implying the possibility that it was a separate resource with the indented statement:
Restrictions and Resource Requirements:
The English-Greek Reverse Interlinear of the NRSV Apocryphal Texts
will only the available for Logos 4 and higher. It cannot be used in
Libronix 3.0 or earlier. Also, it only includes the linked data for the
Greek and English texts. For this reason, both the New Revised Standard Version and the Septuagint with Logos Morphology are prerequisite resources for its use.I found the whole description to be somewhat ambiguous. If it is to be integrated with the NRSV bible text why is the LXX with Logos Morphology a prerequisite if "it
only includes the linked data for the
Greek and English texts"? Is the AFAT a prerequisite for the English-Hebrew RI?Are Louw-Nida numbers to be included when you state "They
open up a number of avenues of research such as determining whether the
translator's rendering of conjunctions, adverbs, and other function
words match the semantic range delineated in Louw and Nida's Greek-English
Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains"?Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Michael Paul said:
Just my opinion, but it seems a bit pricey. Am I out of line?
At 29.95? I considered this to be a bargain.
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This is really cool - I hope it gets into production soon!
In fact, if I can go out on a limb here, Logos I would go ahead and start the production process, I am sure enough people will order it [;)]
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Michael Aubrey said:Andrew McKenzie said:
As to whether is will actually show up as a stand alone resource or 'integrate' into our already existent NRSV bible, the prepub page gives the impression it is standalone which I think is a shame. As the following picture suggests the NRSV is begging to have this information added rather than it being in a separate resource. But as a separate resource I guess it is better than what we have at the moment which is also reflected by this picture.
Andrew, if you could point me to where the pre-pub page suggests such a thing, I'd like to correct that when I get back to the office tomorrow morning. That was definitely not the intention. This will not be a stand-alone resource. It will fill the gap that you see in the picture you provided.
I had tried to avoid implying the possibility that it was a separate resource with the indented statement:
Restrictions and Resource Requirements:
The English-Greek Reverse Interlinear of the NRSV Apocryphal Texts will only the available for Logos 4 and higher. It cannot be used in Libronix 3.0 or earlier. Also, it only includes the linked data for the Greek and English texts. For this reason, both the New Revised Standard Version and the Septuagint with Logos Morphology are prerequisite resources for its use.Let me know what suggested it was separate and I'll fix it.
MJ. Smith said:That's not the only thing missing:
Actually, MJ, if I may simply repeat you...that is the only thing missing. Fill in the reverse interlinear data and you get the right click information too. The reverse interlinear will fill it all in.
Basically, if you want these holes filled, help Logos get this pre-pub into development!
Thanks for the response Mike, its not so much what it says, but what it doesn't state that makes you wonder whether this is a stand-alone resource. Maybe a statement along the lines of The data will be integrate directly into your existing NRSV resource. If you don't have a license for the NRSV then you will need purchase one and include a link to the NSRV page. A similar statement about why the Septuigant with Logos Morphology is required and a link to the page to unlock would also be good.
As I said earlier the price is great. Look forward to the completed product
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Dave Hooton said:
Are Louw-Nida numbers to be included when you state "They open up a number of avenues of research such as determining whether the translator's rendering of conjunctions, adverbs, and other function words match the semantic range delineated in Louw and Nida's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains"?
To be honest, I was thinking more generally about normal lexical searches when I wrote that, but at the same time, I'm 99% sure that the answer is "Yes." L&N numbers will be included.
Andrew McKenzie said:Thanks for the response Mike, its not so much what it says, but what it doesn't state that makes you wonder whether this is a stand-alone resource. Maybe a statement along the lines of The data will be integrate directly into your existing NRSV resource. If you don't have a license for the NRSV then you will need purchase one and include a link to the NSRV page. A similar statement about why the Septuigant with Logos Morphology is required and a link to the page to unlock would also be good.
Thanks for the input Andrew. Its always difficult to anticipate what is and what is not ambiguous when we're writing up descriptions. You guys are always a lot of help with that! I've added an additional couple sentences.
And feel free to keep this thread on top...it just hit about 1/3 of production costs.
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Michael Aubrey said:
And feel free to keep this thread on top...it just hit about 1/3 of production costs.
I'm in. Thanks for the resource. I expect it to be useful for searches.
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Michael Aubrey said:Dave Hooton said:
Are Louw-Nida numbers to be included when you state "They open up a number of avenues of research such as determining whether the translator's rendering of conjunctions, adverbs, and other function words match the semantic range delineated in Louw and Nida's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains"?
To be honest, I was thinking more generally about normal lexical searches when I wrote that, but at the same time, I'm 99% sure that the answer is "Yes." L&N numbers will be included.
I just got word that there isn't any realistic way to include L&N data for the Apocrypha simply because the L&N is specifically limited to the vocabulary of the New Testament. Sadly, the manner in which the lexicon is designed prevents it from being expanded beyond the New Testament.
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Michael Aubrey said:
Actually, MJ, if I may simply repeat you...that is the only thing missing. Fill in the reverse interlinear data and you get the right click information too. The reverse interlinear will fill it all in.
Basically, if you want these holes filled, help Logos get this pre-pub into development!
I assure you I clicked on the pre-order button before even reading the details. However, when I said something else was missing I meant the Biblical Persons information. I am confident it will come but that doesn't keep me from being a bit impatient.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I assure you I clicked on the pre-order button before even reading the details. However, when I said something else was missing I meant the Biblical Persons information. I am confident it will come but that doesn't keep me from being a bit impatient.
Gotcha.
I was never too worried about whether you would put in an order or not
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Michael Aubrey said:Andrew McKenzie said:
Thanks for the response Mike, its not so much what it says, but what it doesn't state that makes you wonder whether this is a stand-alone resource. Maybe a statement along the lines of The data will be integrate directly into your existing NRSV resource. If you don't have a license for the NRSV then you will need purchase one and include a link to the NSRV page. A similar statement about why the Septuigant with Logos Morphology is required and a link to the page to unlock would also be good.
Thanks for the input Andrew. Its always difficult to anticipate what is and what is not ambiguous when we're writing up descriptions. You guys are always a lot of help with that! I've added an additional couple sentences.
And feel free to keep this thread on top...it just hit about 1/3 of production costs.
The update on the page I think now covers it Mike. Thanks for listening to our thoughts.
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Andrew McKenzie said:
The update on the page I think now covers it Mike. Thanks for listening to our thoughts.
Of course. You help me do my job better. Thanks.
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Michael Aubrey said:
Well, we'd love to offer it at a lower price, but balancing demand vs. cost is always a challenge.
Could Logos offer a community effort similar to what was done for the original ESV reverse interlinear with the scholar just playing final editor? I'm sure you would get as many volunteers now as then. You could also probably offer less incentive and get a sufficient response [;)]
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James W Bennett said:
Could Logos offer a community effort similar to what was done for the original ESV reverse interlinear with the scholar just playing final editor? I'm sure you would get as many volunteers now as then. You could also probably offer less incentive and get a sufficient response
I don't remember that being the case for the ESV...
In any case, the larger portion of the cost involves processing, not production.
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Michael Aubrey said:
I just got word that there isn't any realistic way to include L&N data for the Apocrypha simply because the L&N is specifically limited to the vocabulary of the New Testament. Sadly, the manner in which the lexicon is designed prevents it from being expanded beyond the New Testament.
I suspected as much and the wording changes have clarified the intent of that section.
However, under Benefits of the RI text there are two mentions of "new testament" that need to be fixed!
Could you state how the link to the Logos LXX works. I understand that the "underlying" Greek will appear in the NRSV resource as per the Greek for the NT but it seems to work differently to the New Testament Greek.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
However, under Benefits of the RI text there are two mentions of "new testament" that need to be fixed!
Thanks, I fixed that.
Dave Hooton said:Could you state how the link to the Logos LXX works. I understand that the "underlying" Greek will appear in the NRSV resource as per the Greek for the NT but it seems to work differently to the New Testament Greek.
Its the same as in the NT texts. There is no link to the Logos LXX in the Logos LXX. That resource is simply the text used to create the RI and thus a necessary prerequisite. And since the words in that resource share the same tokens. To the extent that sympathetic highlighting will connect the NRSV to the actual LXX resource, they are in a way still connected.
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Michael Aubrey said:
This is the first time we've seen a Reverse Interlinear on Pre-Pub:
English-Greek Reverse Interlinear of the NRSV Apocryphal Texts
http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/7130
Check it out.
Mike, do you know if we're ever going to have the ESV apocrypha in Logos (along with a RevInt for it too)?
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Michael Aubrey said:James W Bennett said:
Could Logos offer a community effort similar to what was done for the original ESV reverse interlinear with the scholar just playing final editor? I'm sure you would get as many volunteers now as then. You could also probably offer less incentive and get a sufficient response
I don't remember that being the case for the ESV...
Since I was there, hopefully I can clarify this.
The ESV NT Reverse Interlinear was done by John Schwandt, and was never a community effort. It was reviewed by John Collins, the ESV Text Editor (at least, that's how he's described on the cover of the print reverse interlinear that Crossway published); Schwandt and Collins then worked out the sticky spots between them.
After we did the ESV NT, we experimented with doing a complete NT (the NASB) based on a community effort (I actually did the Pastoral Epistles for this project. Yikes!). The problem was consistent and accurate submissions. We found that "just playing final editor" and correcting the community submission essentially required re-doing the work, which only increased the cost from the single-scholar/publisher review model of the ESV. We actually never used that data; the NASB NT Reverse Interlinear that is in Logos4 now is a completely different effort.
My guess is that James has conflated these two processes since they both involved reverse interlienars.
Hope it helps in explaining what happened.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0
