Where would a new user start?
I am assuming that all of us are beta testing as existing users of 3.
One of the things that I have been wondering is: Would someone buying version 4 with no prior knowledge of Logos know where to begin with the current interface? What do you guys think?
Comments
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There are several Mac users here, but I think most have experience with v3. I personally ditched v3 completely and only use the Mac 1.0 (flaws and all)
First impression, OVERWHELMED with no idea where to start.
I have made several suggestions to help rectify that, but we will see which ideas were good or useful.0 -
RodneyPrickett said:
I am assuming that all of us are beta testing as existing users of 3.
One of the things that I have been wondering is: Would someone buying version 4 with no prior knowledge of Logos know where to begin with the current interface? What do you guys think?
Wether or not I'd seen 3.0 I'd be overwhelmed because it is not like any application I have ever used. If I'd never seen 3.0 I'd think more highly of it since I wouldn't know how much is missing from this version. Not that I don't think highly of it, but it does loose marks for not having things in 4.0 that I paid for in 3.0.
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Hello Andrew.
How do you know that you have not got some 'things' you paid for(I assume you mean resources/books) in Logos 4 that were in Logos 3? I had the impression that the 30 or so books I have short in V4 will eventually be reinstated when they are 'upgraded' to be compatible. I am sure that someone said this to me earlier on in the blog. Do you know something that I don't on this one?
Tony
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RodneyPrickett said:
Would someone buying version 4 with no prior knowledge of Logos know where to begin with the current interface? What do you guys think?
I think a new user would be completely lost. When you look at the home page, it doesn't look anything like Bible study software. Hopefully, at some point, a new user would notice the very faint words "enter passage or topic" up in the white box by the go button. Presumably the interface is similar to the web so that they would know to press "go." If they entered a passage and clicked "go," they'll find lots of interesting things on that screen.
But where to go next after that? Nothing really tells them how to make another search for a passage, topic, or word. If they like to snoop around in a program and try to figure it out, they'll certainly start to find these things. But many users aren't like that - if it's not clear to them, they get flustered and quit.
So, bottom line, I think v.4 is wonderful for power users, but it is going to need some very clear basic training for new users. Here's my best idea - a short animated or video tutorial of the basics that begins automatically (though it can be cancelled) when the program is installed for the first time. Several other software programs do this, and I've always been thankful for it when I was a brand new user.
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Specifically refer to addins rather than resources, while it has been indicated these will be backat a later date, its still a bit disappointing that they are going to be offline for an unkown time. Yes I can still use them in 3.0 alongside 4.0 but we have no idea when we will see 4.1, 4.2 or whaever version they make their return (I expect Logos doesn't have any defintie dates on those sort of things either, maybe only rough target dates and so don't expect them to give a date ) Also I do feel a bit ripped off that the interlinears are no longer separate resources I don't find the new format helpful and won't be using them much if at all in 4.0.... so I'm being forced over to Georges way of thinking.....but not quite there yet George, I'm still lamenting the situation... In terms of resources I have about 1300 offline at the moment as I was directed to do things this way by Logos but that is not really an issue at this point as one would expect things like that in a beta.
Visual markups in particular were a selling point of 3.0 and a fairly regulary used item for me. I also will particulary miss sentence diagrammer whilte its not there. If the missing features were going to be in a later beta of 4.0 then that would be fine but they are not so I well and truly have my customer's hat on , when it comes to these particular points.
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TimothyLovegrove said:RodneyPrickett said:
Would someone buying version 4 with no prior knowledge of Logos know where to begin with the current interface? What do you guys think?
I think a new user would be completely lost. When you look at the home page, it doesn't look anything like Bible study software. Hopefully, at some point, a new user would notice the very faint words "enter passage or topic" up in the white box by the go button. Presumably the interface is similar to the web so that they would know to press "go." If they entered a passage and clicked "go," they'll find lots of interesting things on that screen.
But where to go next after that? Nothing really tells them how to make another search for a passage, topic, or word. If they like to snoop around in a program and try to figure it out, they'll certainly start to find these things. But many users aren't like that - if it's not clear to them, they get flustered and quit.
So, bottom line, I think v.4 is wonderful for power users, but it is going to need some very clear basic training for new users. Here's my best idea - a short animated or video tutorial of the basics that begins automatically (though it can be cancelled) when the program is installed for the first time. Several other software programs do this, and I've always been thankful for it when I was a brand new user.
I agree and would after the intial things you suggest like windows postioning and layout needs to be focused on as this is an application about resources, one needs to feel in control of positoning and arranging windows and layouts for that matter. These are things I have totally struggled with working out. I did not find it intutitive at all and if this was a program I was not familar with, and was trialling a demo, to be honest I would have ditched it by now.
Once a user has that under their belt they need to understand preferred resources... I am a seasoned user who apprecaited keylinks and resource associations but haven't got there wiith prefered resources at yet... that's my priority for the next day or so, hoping I dont' find too many other interesting things to distract me from that
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In the past, Logos has put out a CD with helpful videos. I am connecting this with that little Microsoft Office guy that pops up for first time users and gives hints when a new feature is used for the first time.
Could v.4 use a feature like this to help guide new users and maybe there could be a little "Help" option to watch a video instead of just reading a text file???0 -
TimothyLovegrove said:
When you look at the home page, it doesn't look anything like Bible study software.
Well, that was our goal. :-)
This feedback is very helpful; we'll also be trying the product out on new users.
The difficult trick is to balance the needs of existing users (many of whom are "power user" -- especially in this beta) and make the product attractive to people who aren't already users, too. I figure that power users will turn off the Home Page and start right up in their last workspace. But we've heard from a lot of users whose biggest question isn't "How do I set up parallel resource associations?" :-), but rather, "I want to spend more time in the Bible. How do I start?"
The (not yet) finished Home Page is our attempt to meet those users closer to where they are, to help them get to the point where they can turn it off. :-)
Our inspiration is the iPhone, which I know is both loved and hated. When I got an iPhone, the first question I had was "where are the photo files? what format are they? How do I manage them and where they're stored?" I also wondered how I could explicitly turn off applications to get better performance, the way I did on my Windows Mobile device.
Of course the iPhone doesn't let you manage your files (which I didn't like until I realized that I didn't care, and it did it well), and you don't turn off running apps because it's only ever running the one you're looking at. That costs something -- you can't have a GPS app running in the background, and if you switch apps there's a penalty to return to the previous one -- but it makes for a great experience all the time, without hidden performance penalties that you have to become an expert user to understand.
(My wife literally could not place a call with my Windows Mobile phone. She does email, calendar, web, and text messaging on her iPhone -- all features I had on my Windows Mobile, and which were useful to me but simply inaccessible to her, since she wasn't willing to be a power user.)
We're definitely going in the iPhone direction with Logos 4. We are listening to your feedback and will do everything we can to make sure you can have an even better experience with 4.0 than with 3.0.
We have all kinds of users, and I expect that some of you will prefer 3.0 forever. (We have users today who prefer Logos 1.6 (1992) and the LLS (1995), and refuse to upgrade.) We know people who still use WordPerfect. (Sorry, Dale! :-) )
And we want the honest feedback you're giving us -- really. This is great.
I hope some testers will step back, though, and try to look at 4.0 with fresh eyes. Try to use it the way it works, rather than the way 3.0 works, and see if that changes how you see it.
For example: We very intentionally put no 3.0 import features into Beta 1. We may actually include some by the time we shipped, but we wanted to "force" everyone to try query based collections instead of importing old manual collections. We wanted to force you to explore the new shortcuts and favorites functions instead of importing your familiar ones. We wanted to see if whole-library searching changed the way you used collections, or if draggable shortcuts changed your use of customizable toolbars. We wanted to see if the (still forthcoming!) built-in-default resource prioritizes reduced the need for setting KeyLinks by data type for most users. We wanted to see if Clippings changed how you use Notes.
We'll have time to add what is really missing from 3.0; this is our only chance, though, to find out what legacy baggage we can leave behind in a way that actually makes the product simpler and easier to use. So I hope that many of you will spend some time in 4.0 "as-is" before putting too much effort into recreating exactly the same configuration / notes / highlights / settings / layouts you had in 3.0.
Thanks for helping us with that, even if it's a bit frustrating! :-) And please keep the feedback coming.
Also, I'm happy to consider your immediate family members as covered under your non-disclosure agreement, assuming you and they agree. If you've got a spouse or child who is not already a Bible software user, I'd love to hear about your experience watching them try to use it.
Thanks!
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HiI really like how easy it is to start studying without messing around with the program
I have really bad dyslexia I have to use speech recognition software to write any of my notes, e-mail
I am definitely getting more out of the Bible text than I ever did with the previous programme[:)]
I'm not a power user,
I am missing the pronunciation tool for the Greek {I like to hear the pronunciation)
This is how I started using the program
Create a reading plan, have the Bible Explorer open and the information window open
and away I go amazing information at my fingertips
I don't know if this is possible but sometimes I may not need to have the information window synchronising all the time
is there a way I could switch this on or off in the toolbar
mick
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I have to agree with you. My wife never uses Logos 3 because she finds it too confusing. She much prefers E-Sword with its simple interface. Logos4 would be even more confusing for her and she wouldn't even give it a chance. Sad, but true.
Personally speaking, I have found it an adjustment. I know what Logos 3 does so I have certain expectations and I find myself wondering how to do what I always did before with ease. Once I learn the new system things are fine. New users won't have to worry about that. Remember how MS Office users complained about the new look and ribbon?
Personally I think there should be a simple mode which has Bible, dictionaries and commentary. Instead of making their own layout new users could chose from set designs and then once they are advanced they can learn how to do it themselves. I think that Logos is becoming the PhotoShop of Bible software. Most people think that PhotoShop is the best photo editing software out there and professionals (always) use it. The average user is happy with Adobe Elements or something else simpler and cheaper (or even free).
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Bob,
Thanks for your excellent explanation of the theories and reasons for doing as you have done. This is a significant departure from 3 and one of the things that I kept saying to people to whom I would recommend 3.0 to was the fact that any idiot could open it know what to do with little searching of help files, which I hate to do when I first fire up a new program.
One of my fears is the comment you made about the "iPhone direction". A phone is something totally different than a PC. Microsoft missed the boat because they didn't realize that and tried to make WinMo like a PC in your hand. I hope you are not making the same mistake going the other way. I love my iPhone by I'd hate it if my PC worked that way.
I think I would love the Home screen if it was what it is now, plus the guides. Also it would be helpful if it was organized or categorized more. Like a column for a bible excerpt, a column for a different devotional, a column that opens to a random commentary, one for Bible dictionary, one for general books, and so on. And taking the iPhone metaphor, a way to swipe form screen to screen using the mouse (mouse gestures) or your finger if you have a touch screen device like a tablet or one of the HP touchsmarts.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
I hope some testers will step back, though, and try to look at 4.0 with fresh eyes. Try to use it the way it works, rather than the way 3.0 works, and see if that changes how you see it.
For example: We very intentionally put no 3.0 import features into Beta 1. We may actually include some by the time we shipped, but we wanted to "force" everyone to try query based collections instead of importing old manual collections. We wanted to force you to explore the new shortcuts and favorites functions instead of importing your familiar ones. We wanted to see if whole-library searching changed the way you used collections, or if draggable shortcuts changed your use of customizable toolbars. We wanted to see if the (still forthcoming!) built-in-default resource prioritizes reduced the need for setting KeyLinks by data type for most users.
I've stepped back a fair bit and I'm still trying to pick myself up! I responded elsewhere (can't search[:(]) to this Q of yours by suggesting Logos provide a few query-built collections to get newcomers going. Whole library search speed has affected my need to have extensive collections in v4, but the Prioritize feature does need a decent design review (see elsewhere for detailed comments) but the hidden builtin defaults for keylinking, parallel associations and serial associations may carry most users for a while. I would caution about sanitising lexicons by stripping them of multiple data types for keylinking eg.retain Original Language and Strong's in the Swanson DBL's as I don't want to be forced to use Strong's Lexicon for Strong's numbers! I see that some fields have already been stripped from some resources eg. GenNote in the NET bible allowed me to search for footnote identifiers. DBL Greek lists two fields in v4 although I can still search on lemma and gloss!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Bob Pritchett said:TimothyLovegrove said:
When you look at the home page, it doesn't look anything like Bible study software.
Well, that was our goal. :-)
This feedback is very helpful; we'll also be trying the product out on new users.
Our inspiration is the iPhone, which I know is both loved and hated. When I got an iPhone, the first question I had was "where are the photo files? what format are they? How do I manage them and where they're stored?" I also wondered how I could explicitly turn off applications to get better performance, the way I did on my Windows Mobile device.
We're definitely going in the iPhone direction with Logos 4. We are listening to your feedback and will do everything we can to make sure you can have an even better experience with 4.0 than with 3.0.
iphone... no wonder I don't relate to this.... nothing aginast the iphone cause I've never seen one, let alone used one, or a mobile device for that matter....just don't have the need for anything like that......but my mobile phone, well it lets me make and receive phone calls and send sms, I wouldn't know whether or not it has a calendar and alarm funtion, it has an FM Radio reciever but I never use that cause you need to be wear the headphones to work that and well I never use the headphones....definetely no camera (so don't need to worry about photos), document reader, mp3 player etc. etc... I just need a mobile phone so people can get me when they need to or I can reach them if I need when I not near a landline......my mobile phone may be very plain but it does what I need it to do...
I'm still trying to work out how I can do what I need my bible study software to do with Logos 4.0.....
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TomReynolds said:
Logos4 would be even more confusing for her and she wouldn't even give it a chance. Sad, but true.
Really? Can you try it with her?
Because we thought we'd made 4.0 infinitely easier for new users (though, by definition, confusing to experienced 3.0 users). 3.0 had windows that could hide other windows, put data on miscellaneous fly-out menus off the Tools menu, had a My Library you could lose, offered multiple search dialogs that disappeared before the results showed up, etc. (ugh! what were we thinking? :-) )
Our thought was the 4.0 would offer a lot of "places to start" to new users right away, and that the simple three button interface in the upper left -- home, library, search -- would be easy to understand quickly.
In 4.0 even the Passage Guide is smarter; it auto opens multiple Bibles, opens the first commentary, etc. It seems to be just what you're calling a "set design."
Please, if you get a chance, do have your wife try it, and let me know where she gets lost.
Thanks!
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Bob Pritchett said:
In 4.0 even the Passage Guide is smarter; it auto opens multiple Bibles, opens the first commentary, etc. It seems to be just what you're calling a "set design."
Apologies for jumping in on this one but how does it do that...I have found when I run passage guide it doesn't open any bible for me. I have to go to my libary and manually open a bible and navigate it to that reference if I start with passage guide first..
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Bob Pritchett said:
Thanks for helping us with that, even if it's a bit frustrating! :-) And please keep the feedback coming.
Also, I'm happy to consider your immediate family members as covered under your non-disclosure agreement, assuming you and they agree. If you've got a spouse or child who is not already a Bible software user, I'd love to hear about your experience watching them try to use it.
I'm the type of person who always likes to play with something new and fresh. Therefore I was more then willing, even anxious, to try out software that was completely different from 3.0. Here has been my thought development throughout my testing so far.
initially when I opened the program and started playing around it felt like a stripped down version of 3.0. I'm saying that not because of the user interface but because of the missing addons and features that were not immediately obvious. For instance, where was sentence diagramming, verse list, etc under the Files tab. It felt kinda empty.
As I played I started really liking the layout. realizing that windows floated, layouts were saved, Once I realized that verse lists were not just hidden somewhere obscure but simply was not included in the beta allowed me to move from seeing it as empty to viewing it as clean. Even though I initially loved the reading mode I find myself liking it even more and more as I go along. Rather then continually messing up my window sizes to get more involved with a book I can simply switch to reading mode. Please please please give this feature a keyboard shortcut!
Continued interaction found me absolutely loving collections. Had I not been prejudiced by 3.0's method I think I would have picked up what was going on right away. Collection management, including the ability to tag and mark favorites, is a big leap forward for the ease of the software in my opinion. Having dynamic collections really simplifies the process of adding resources to the library as I no longer have to think "what collections do I need to put this in so I don't loose it."
Continued interaction
also found me not loving so much the prioritization. I like minutia control. the prioritized list makes me feel like my options are 1,2,3,4 etc. I prefer 1, 1.a, 1.b, 1.c, 2.a, 2.b.3.r.w.s.f, etc. If you make the prioritized list more visually discernible (e.g. different colors for different resources) and filterable (e.g. allow me to filter the list using the same syntax as a collection) it might grow a bit on me but as of right now I feel very little control with the current prioritized list. If you could make a way for 1,2,3,4 to be sufficient but 1.a, 1.b, 2.a, 2.b to be possible I think you would be closer to the Iphone feel which I view as great on the surface, greater under the hood.I continue to be amazed at how simple it initially looked to me yet how in depth it is for those interested in looking and using creativity. the only missing feature that I am overly concerned about right now is the importing of 3.0 highlighting and notes. I truly hope either this is in the initial 4.0 release or following in an update within 2-3 months. I would rather you focus on getting the platform right now and the additional features to match later. I am willing to miss the verse list temporarily in order to divorce the software from IE.
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Andrew,
I think you'll find this is a reference to running the passage guide from the home page.
Whether there is a benefit to this before preferences are set is debatable. Mine opened the one bible I set from the home page and then the ASV followed by three foreign language bibles. The commentary was from the Ancient Christian Commentary series.
I'm more and more convinced of the need for an installation or first-run dialogue allowing for the setting of some of these preferences.
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Bob Pritchett said:
Please, if you get a chance, do have your wife try it, and let me know where she gets lost
I have a church with people who have no interest in Bible software but love Bible study. If I didn't tell them what they were looking at (e.g. a secret beta) they would have no idea and wouldn't know how to describe what they were seeing if they did. My wife has used 3.0 and would be of the mindset "I already know how to use Logos, i don't want to relearn it.", but they would have no experience at all with it. If at some point you want me to try a beta out on them let me know.
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Bob,
I think I understand what you are getting at. I think I also understand the frustration of some who thought 4.0 would be a souped-up 3.0.
One suggestion I would have, as a new DVD installed user (about an hour ago):
Provide some simple instructions on how to do some basic helpful things. I know you want beta users to "play around" with the software to find out what is useful, easy to find, etc. But the problem from my end is that there is no easy place to begin.
Let me use your iPhone analogy. One of the best things Apple did was to set up very brief, screenshot and word (NOT videos, even short ones) that show "How To" do basic things. Not the super complex things, but basic things. That allowed may to get "comfortable" with the OS and features, and begin to fish around for more things. It spawned more exploration. As I look at 4.0, I'm not sure where to begin. It would help to have some starting points. To continue the analogy - just knowing something is possible, without knowing how, is even MORE frustrating than not having a feature. I was incredibly annoyed with iPhone OS 3.1 when Apple gave a one-line comment about being able to use Voice Control with a bluetooth device, and gave absolutely no idea how to do it. I tried for a couple of minutes to find an intuitive way to make it work, and then gave up in frustration because Apple should have told me. Dozens of people agreed (at least their posts in Apple's forums said so).
So I think it would be a big help to have a couple of basic features basically described and let that start the experience.
EDIT:
The thread on infographics is a good example of this. I would have NO idea about this (potentially) useful feature without Bob's post.
Fred Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA, Katy, TX
Windows 10 64-bit; Logos 7.1 SR-2 (Reformed Platinum)0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
I hope some testers will step back, though, and try to look at 4.0 with fresh eyes. Try to use it the way it works, rather than the way 3.0 works, and see if that changes how you see it.
Bob,
Thank-you so much for the explanation of some of the thought patterns behind this new release. It certainly helped to re-focus my testing. I will say that this type of explanatory definition would be very helpful in testing any new area of the software. Other software vendors that I Beta-test always provide a full "Release Definition" document to it's testers before installing the software. This helps us get our heads around some of the philosophies used in the new release. We still gripe about missing features, etc ... but it really helps focus us so we don't try to undo everything you are trying to do.
I was having a very hard time liking a lot of things in the new layout...hoping I would eventually figure out "how to do what I used to do." Your explanation makes perfect sense, and has given me the kick in the pants I needed to look at the software with fresh eyes ... and really begin to see the potential.
Just make sure you leave in enough tweaking access for power-user flexibility.
Thanks again,
PS - I am missing the text markup and notes.
Laptop:Vista Business SP2 32-bit OS / Intel Duo Core P8400@2.26Ghz / 3-Gigs RAM
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Bob,
One more example (that would really be helpful to me): what is a "query based collection" ? I have no idea. Can't find it in the help, and even though there might be a thread in the forum, it probably can't be found.
I'd love to give that a whirl, and see how useful it is (compare to 3.0 type collections). I actually partial to a new method of collections, since I don't use the current 3.0 collections much. But again, I don't know where to start.
(If you help me, I'll really work at it for you!) [;)]
Fred Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA, Katy, TX
Windows 10 64-bit; Logos 7.1 SR-2 (Reformed Platinum)0 -
Fred Greco said:
what is a "query based collection" ?
Sorry -- that's just my description of the new collections in contrast to the old ones. It's just Tools | Collections; they happen to be built more by queries than manually.
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I never really got into the 3.0 tools. To me, they were just a jumble of disconnected tools thrown together as good ideas came along.
Someone said, hey, lets give people the ability to diagram sentences... new tool
Let's do something with looking up bibliographies... new tool.
Lets make puzzles.. new tool.
Verb river... useless tool.
etc..
etc..
But there was no real integration.
When Mac 1.0 came along, I quite honestly was glad to be done with all the 3.0 clutter.
I like 4.0 much better, for reasons I have written about in several places.
So I am thinking that the difference may be in learning styles of different people. Logos 3 appeals to one kind of learning style, v.4 to another?
Maybe not, but that is my impression at this time.
I have already shared above what I feel are the shortcomings of the interface to new users, so I wont repeat that.
In short though, I like the direction of v4.0 -
Jacob Carpenter said:
F11 = Reading mode
Singing..."You make me so....very happy. I'm so glad you...came into my life...."
Thanks [:)]
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Well Bob I am happy to say I did get my DVD today and have been busy getting started. Yes the new Home page is overwhelming at first glance but I think I like the direction you are heading. The only question is will v4 be able to import my Journal file I created on v3. It has lots of links to various verses that I do want to keep. Or have you folks come up with something better that I haven't had to to explore
.BTW: I know its been mentioned but the autorun didn't work for me either. Minor hiccup and will be quickly wied from memory as I get into digging. Thanks to you and the entire Logos team for being such a blessing.
In Christ,
Ken
In Christ,
Ken
Lenovo Yoga 7 15ITL5 Touch Screen; 11th Gen Intel i7 2.8Ghz; 12Gb RAM; 500Gb SDD;WIN 11
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Because we thought we'd made 4.0 infinitely easier for new users (though, by definition, confusing to experienced 3.0 users). 3.0 had windows that could hide other windows, put data on miscellaneous fly-out menus off the Tools menu, had a My Library you could lose, offered multiple search dialogs that disappeared before the results showed up, etc. (ugh! what were we thinking? :-) )
Bob,
So glad to hear you say this because I have found the new edition to be confusing. I was expecting 4.0 to be an extension of 3.0 but instead it feels more like an Apple application in a windows shell. I had thought this and wanted to say it, but then when I read your reference to the iphone I said ok I was right. I think then the genius of the new format is that without dumbing down the content you are bringing the user up to a greater level of indepth bible study.
I have to confess that I like how some of the features work in 3.0 and miss some of them. Maybe after the learning curve in 4.0 is vaulted I will have a greater level of confidence in the new approach. Right now I'm struggling.
I put the new beta on my wife's laptop tonight. She is a complete newbie. I will let you know her reactions.
God bless,
Pastor Chris McFarland0 -
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That's a good idea. We are planning to do a welcome video.0
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DamianMcGrath said:
I think you'll find this is a reference to running the passage guide from the home page.
Thanks Damian.....
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