What Happens When L4 is Released?

What happens to those of us who are Beta testing under a different name than our regular LDLS Customer ID?

Bob Pritchett said:

No, I can't disclose it yet

I think it will be on my 50th birthday but I will don't disclose the date to anybody [;)]

Bradley Grainger said:

Alex Scott said:

What happens to those of us who are Beta testing under a different name than our regular LDLS Customer ID?

Hopefully nothing. We're moving towards identifying you using the email address and password that you use to sign in to Logos.com. For existing users who originally activated Libronix DLS with a different email address, you can set up a link between your two accounts by editing the "Libronix Customer ID"  listed at https://www.logos.com/MyAccount. If you continue to run LDLS3 and Logos 4 side-by-side, that link will keep your accounts in sync.

 

I was under the impression that if I edited my Libronix Customer ID I would mess up my ID on the server and I could possibly lose my license. Are you telling me it is okay to change my libronix customer ID to match my current email address?  Will it affect L3 as my current installation has my old email address as my Libronix Customer ID?

Richard DeRuiter said:

Bob Pritchett said:

No, I can't disclose it yet, but we will give advance notice here on the forums so that...you'll all be ready on release day to twitter, blog, and generally say nice things

BTW, did you notice the new B5 tester who signed on today? Pretty lost at first. It will be interesting to see what happens after a day or two. It seems the transition will be hardest for L3 "power users."

Well, my husband tried v. 4 on Saturday, never having used v. 3 or other Logos versions, but has used other Bible software and found them easy to use.  In short, he found it diffcult to learn, looked for "help" within the program-there is none yet-, said he didn't have the time it would take to learn to use it.  Yes, he could type in a Bible passage and hit "go".  But the next screen he got with 6 panes on it was overwhelming to him at first.  I could hear him say "how did that happen?" when he moved the cursor and "how do I get back to where I was?" and "why aren't more Bible versions showing up in this window?" .  He did like the appearance-soft colors- and thought it was cool that when he moused over English words, he had a window with Greek look ups.  At first, he liked the pop ups with info for KJV, etc. but then after he saw it a few times said "that  would be very annoying, if it continues; how do I turn it off?"  He is used to software like MS Office 2007 and is a power user of all of that.  He thinks that if you have a position where you are in full time Christian work, you would have the time and motivation to learn v. 4.  But for him, he just could not sit and watch videos or attend a seminar.  No time; his job requires a lot of time because he has a lot of responsibilities.  And really needs a interface with more structure that "helps" him rather than having so many choices confronting him that he was confused. 

And I made sure he didn't have to go through an indexing round or two.  IOW, the program was up and running well.  So, I don't think it is just hard for v.3 power users.

Dave,

Thanks for your comment.  Yes, if he had to endure indexing, he would never have kept the program.  He expects that from a high end, expensive piece of software realistic startup guides and in program help should come with it that removes any confusion from the new user.  He doesn't think he should have to pay more for videos or training.  (Other Bible software does come with training included; it is not asking too much to provide it with Logos.)

I guess I realize that what I mean by intuitive is really "learnable".  I should be able to open up v. 4 and have a successful first experience in using it.  Yes, challenging but also rewarding in the sense that if I have a question as a new user as to "how to prioritize?", then the program should explain why it is necessary to prioritize and how to do it.

Quite frankly, I am coming to the conclusion that the reason the majority of beta testers do not find v. 4 difficult to use is because they truly have brilliant minds.  And I am not in that group; v. 4 is difficult to use for me and it is not because I have used v. 3.  It is because I do not have a lot of time to do things by trial and error and learn from my errors.  I would prefer to read something on "why prioritize and how to" and something on "how resources are organized, e.g. subsets to search on".  And when I first get the software, not wait months until videos are posted or have to pay a lot of money for training. 

I wonder how many other people are out there who have never participated in the forums/newsgroups that have purchased a package from Logos and never made another purchase of resources because they found the program difficult to use and hard to learn.  I am just determined and stubborn enough to have hung around because I do love the software.  Thanks for listening[A]

George,

Maybe not a knife, but you are one of the shiniest apples in the bunch.[:D]

 Morris Proctor, who is a great instructor, puts out dvd's and other materials for sale. 

I also think that there is a basic underlying issue that needs to be addressed.

Photoshop is a great example. I've been using Photoshop since the 3.0 days and  the first time I opened it I sat there and said....now what??

I was very motivated however and I dug and dug and learned. My mother, or even my wife or brother in law will not do that. for them; "Picasa" with it's "do you want to remove red-eye now?" sort of "big button/low flexibility" interface is fine for them.

It's hard for a piece of software to be both Photoshop with it's power, and Picasa with it's dumbed down "click here to take out red eye" interface...that's an issue that's tough to resolve.

 

The only way that I see out of it is to make it stupid upon launch.

 

click here to study a passage

 

click here to study a word

 

click here to study a topic;

 

click here to open your favorite bible

Robert Pavich said:

I also think that there is a basic underlying issue that needs to be addressed.

Photoshop is a great example. I've been using Photoshop since the 3.0 days and  the first time I opened it I sat there and said....now what??

I was very motivated however and I dug and dug and learned. My mother, or even my wife or brother in law will not do that. for them; "Picasa" with it's "do you want to remove red-eye now?" sort of "big button/low flexibility" interface is fine for them.

It's hard for a piece of software to be both Photoshop with it's power, and Picasa with it's dumbed down "click here to take out red eye" interface...that's an issue that's tough to resolve. 

The only way that I see out of it is to make it stupid upon launch. 

click here to study a passage
click here to study a word
click here to study a topic;
click here to open your favorite bible

Does it also have a button labelled "Click here to throw this in the trash"?

Joe Miller said:

JoanKorte said:

 Morris Proctor, who is a great instructor, puts out dvd's and other materials for sale. 

I think the video tutorials should be included in L4 not as a separate purchase.

Since L4 is a new product, I imagine the easiest way to do this would either be to license new videos from MP or to bring him onboard as a regular Logos employee.  Of couse, it would be possible for Logos to begin to issue their own materials in competition with MP, but I'm not sure Logos would want to do that.

George Somsel said:

Joe Miller said:

JoanKorte said:

 Morris Proctor, who is a great instructor, puts out dvd's and other materials for sale. 

I think the video tutorials should be included in L4 not as a separate purchase.

 

Since L4 is a new product, I imagine the easiest way to do this would either be to license new videos from MP or to bring him onboard as a regular Logos employee.  Of couse, it would be possible for Logos to begin to issue their own materials in competition with MP, but I'm not sure Logos would want to do that.

Logos does put out video tutorials on their website and they are very helpful but the issue is timing.  If I recall correctly, it took them months before they had really gotten them up and running.  There are some for beginners, intermediate and more advanced.

In Logos' defense,  when I got the version 3 upgrade, it included a CD of training videos, and the Beta already has links to training videos on the help menu.  They are for version 3 still, but that is an obvious enough thing that they will fix when the time is right.  Also, the recent betas have had significant improvement in the basic reports, which makes it easier for new users.

That said, the results you get can be, well, unexpected if you don't have the favorite book settings set right.  The release version needs to come out of the box with results that make sense.  This either means that Logos has a sense of picking defaults other than Alpha order, or there is a setup script that walks the new user though setting these favorites.  The present system where we have to make sure we have five of each type of book is not a realist option for the release.

Back in "Logos 4 Philosophy" Bob pointed out that there are only a limited number of peope who are tech savy enough to really be interested in the under the hood stuff that we all are used to handling in Libronix, and so that is why it takes care of all that stuff for us.  Admittedly, I come from a Main-line background, but in my experience there is also a very limited number of people who are used to anywhere the detail of bible study Logos offers, since they already know what the bible says...

By speading up whole library searches with "best" results coming first, Logos 4 is a step forward, but while I LIKE having all the reports open when I type in a reference, it does take a lot of screen space and is not obvious what exactly all those things are.

JoanKorte said:

Quite frankly, I am coming to the conclusion that the reason the majority of beta testers do not find v. 4 difficult to use is because they truly have brilliant minds.  And I am not in that group; v. 4 is difficult to use for me and it is not because I have used v. 3.  It is because I do not have a lot of time to do things by trial and error and learn from my errors.  I would prefer to read something on "why prioritize and how to" and something on "how resources are organized, e.g. subsets to search on".  And when I first get the software, not wait months until videos are posted or have to pay a lot of money for training. 

I wonder how many other people are out there who have never participated in the forums/newsgroups that have purchased a package from Logos and never made another purchase of resources because they found the program difficult to use and hard to learn.  I am just determined and stubborn enough to have hung around because I do love the software. 

Joan,  I am far from the sharpest tool in the shed around here either, there are many more learned and seminary trained people around here than myself.  I would say I feel very comfortable working with computer applications in general and don't have a lot of difficulty working out new ones   but I have not all been comfortable with working with L4.  For me its not so much the information that is presented but the way to go about things in order to get things done.  That said I can see the majority of people in my bible study group would not at all be excited by L4 they would not have a clue as to where to start with all the information that got thrown up at them after entering a passage in the home page box.   L3 offfered I think a much better usser controlled entry into the program allowing the user to dermine whether they wanted their bible study to start with the works or just a simple bible and commentary or even just a bible to read.  L4 you presented with a whole lot of information thrown up at you in what was not apparent to me was suppossed to be mimicking a newspaper and then when you get over that and work out you are suppossed to enter a passage in the box it gives you bible study on steriods...and thats great I like that and many of us beta testers like that..but someone new to bible study software who is unsure of the benefits of using such an application...I am not sure it is really going to make the right first up impression upon them. i.e. the average person in my bible study group they will consider opening up their favourite commentary alongside their bible a much easier method...now someone who is a more of an academic type, who has a defininte reason to use bible study software, or the person like you or me who really wants to take their bible study a little further and explore wider topics, then they might be willing to stick it out a bit longer if they have a real desire to learn how to make use of such software. The L4 bible study on steriods with the works or nothing at all approach I think is not going to catch the needed entry points into bible software for all potential new users.

Richard DeRuiter said:

This is an unfair comparison. Try closing all Bibles but an English Bible, then open from the home page and see if your friend finds it a little more accessible.

 

I did exactly that. I had an english bible open. He came into my office. I closed all down but the home page and asked him to tell me what he thought...after he  typed in the verse....that's what he saw....LOTSA STUFF!

For the record; I just did it 2 minutes ago with another "non bible software using" christian and his reaction was the same..."Why don't I just get a bible and a commentary...what's all this other stuff?"

 

and part of  the reason that I did this was to see if he'd even know what to do on the home page....it took about 2 minutes before he realized that he was supposed to type in a passage...and all that other stuff he didn't expect...he expected to read the passage #1 and also have a commentary there along side him to help.

 

I ALSO ASKED if he thought that after he got comfortable that he'd be fine with "taking the training wheels off" and he said "probably yes"

 

 

Bob Pritchett said:

but we will give advance notice here on the forums so that you can tell me it is too soon, and then I can explain why we need to release it anyway and promise that we'll add those important missing features ASAP, and then, I hope!, you'll all be ready on release day to twitter, blog, and generally say nice things to encourage a massive number of upgrades and new purchases, thereby funding our ongoing development and the near-term release of the things that should have made it into the first release but didn't.

Are you with me? :-)

 

Of course I'm with you Bob, but can we please have more than a two day notice.  :-)

Since I'm still waiting on artwork and workflow in some areas to finalize I'm not doing my screenshots and walkthroughs yet. 

I'm certainly hoping to spend a few days writing up a massive review and walkthrough complete (I hope) with a few video's and demonstrations.  But I will need time to actually begin and finish. 

Of course in the interest of scandal and sheer web traffic I'd love to post the whole thing about 24 hours before you announce it.  [;)]