Searching for νυνι δε in NA27 and RI

I wanted to look at occurences of the phrase "νυνι δε" in Paul's writings so used the following search in NA27 (I have defined Pauline Letters as Romans to Philemon for the sake of this search)

This gave me 32 results in 16 verses.

I wanted to see how this aligned to the New International Version and so did the same search (as below)

As you can see, the NIV search came up with 26 results in 13 verses:

Trying to understand why I looked at the way the verse is laid out in the RI and found the following:

While the coding shows that it knows the order of the words is "νυνι δε" it is shown in the panel in the reverse order. I assumed this was why it was not showing a match.

However, when I checked one of the places which did get a hit I found the same ordering (Romans 3:21) for example) so that couldn't be the reason.

If I try the same search against the ESV I get a different set of results again compared with the NIV. It has 24 results in 12 verses:

it matches Romans 7:17 which the NIV does not
It doesn't have 1 Corinthians 12:18 which the NIV does
It has 2 Corinthians 8:11 which the NIV does not

Does anyone have any explanation as to why I am getting these different results?

Many thanks

Graham

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Comments

davidphillips

Graham,

I think the reason for the difference is as follows:

There are three places where the NIV doesn't return hits - Rom 7:17, 1 Cor 15:20, and 2 Cor 8:11.

In Rom 7:17 and 2 Cor 8:11 you'll notice that the δε is untranslated in the NIV (indicated by the bullet point in the reverse interlinear). In 1 Cor 15:20, while νυνι and δε are within 1 word from each other in the original text, the translated words are not within 1 word from each other in the NIV. The four differences in the ESV (1 Cor 12:18, 15:20, 2 Cor 8:22, Col 1:22)are all of the latter variety.

Dave

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/187316#Comment_187316

Hi Dave

Thanks for looking into this and for your analysis.

I had been working under the assumption that conducting the Greek search against an RI would focus on the underlying Greek as opposed to how these Greek words were treated within the translations.

It looks as though I was wrong!

Graham

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/187498#Comment_187498

I had been working under the assumption that conducting the Greek search against an RI would focus on the underlying Greek as opposed to how these Greek words were treated within the translations.

It's always best to use a Greek bible and then your search is as simple as "νυνι δε"

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/187509#Comment_187509

It's always best to use a Greek bible and then your search is as simple as "νυνι δε"

Hi Dave

Agreed, that's how I started and it was very simple!

However, I wanted to see how these words were treated in the NIV and so added an NIV version to the search results. But, because we don't currently have highlighting of results in "added versions" I started going down the path outlined above which led to all the confusion!

Graham

Mark Barnes

Trying to understand why I looked at the way the verse is laid out in the RI and found the following:

In my opinion, Logos should find this verse with the search greek:δὲ WITHIN 1 WORD greek:νυνὶ. It seems that the WITHIN xx WORDS syntax doesn't work for untranslated words. I understand why that might be, but perhaps you ought to report it as a bug in the beta forum?

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/187498#Comment_187498

I had been working under the assumption that conducting the Greek search against an RI would focus on the underlying Greek as opposed to how these Greek words were treated within the translations

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. There's two issues that will ensure different results:

The Greek text used by the English translations is not identical to NA27 etc.
The word order of the Greek text is changed in RIs, so phrase searching and WITHIN xx WORD results will be different.

So, it does focus on the underlying Greek text, but it's the underlying Greek text of that version, and in the English word order.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/187515#Comment_187515

I understand why that might be, but perhaps you ought to report it as a bug in the beta forum?

Thanks Mark - good suggestion.

This is reported at http://community.logos.com/forums/t/25326.aspx

Graham

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/187517#Comment_187517

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. There's two issues that will ensure different results:

The Greek text used by the English translations is not identical to NA27 etc.

The word order of the Greek text is changed in RIs, so phrase searching and WITHIN xx WORD results will be different.

Mark

Thanks (again!)

I hadn't realised this or thought through the implacations!

Graham

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/187517#Comment_187517

The Greek text used by the English translations is not identical to NA27 etc.

I wanted to explore this further so looked at the recently released SBL apparatus. If I understand it correctly, there is no discrepancy between the NA27 and underlying Greek text for the verses I was looking at.

So this shouldn't be a contributory factor here. Is this a valid use of the apparatus?

(Not wanting to go against what Mark said but trying to understand the specific detail in this case).

Also aware of Bradley's specific information regarding how the searches are done (http://community.logos.com/forums/p/25326/187724.aspx#187724) so this is more a question of appropriate use of apparatus (which is a new area for me!) as opposed to why my original search produce what I expected!

Many thanks

Graham

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/187864#Comment_187864

If I understand it correctly, there is no discrepancy between the NA27 and underlying Greek text for the verses I was looking at.

I'm sure you're right for the verses you're looking at. It's rare that the editors of the NIV and ESV differ from the editors of the NA27 is their reading of the Greek text, but it does happen on occasion. This post explains more, and another addresses the NIV.

Is this a valid use of the apparatus?

The apparatus should alert you to major differences in the Greek texts. But the apparatus won't show every potential issue (particularly the new SBL one, which is designed to be less complex than the full NA27 one). But you're probably safe in assuming that the vast majority of differences between the Greek texts underlying the major English versions will be in the SBL apparatus, though there are no guarantees they all are. The footnotes of the individual translations should alert you to this, though.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/187867#Comment_187867

Thanks Mark - very helpful

Graham