search NEAR or WITHIN

I'm doing a search for rebuke NEAR village, and rebuke WITHIN 10 WORDS village, and getting no results. I have selected all bible text, new testament, top bibles, and match all word forms. I know Lk 9:55-56 has these words near each other but don't know why its not being listed.

Any ideas?

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Friedrich

Anthony, I am still trying to figure this out. Here is the Wiki page on SEARCHES (there are others, too):

At first I thought it was because you used "rebuke" and not past tense: "rebuked" But that didn't pan out, either.

steve clark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227831#Comment_227831

Your words cross verse boundaries. Try using Basic search with your Bible as the book to be searched.

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227832#Comment_227832

Your words cross verse boundaries. Try using Basic search with your Bible as the book to be searched.

lol, thanks, Steve. I was just going to post that and realized you had already. I had never encountered that before. But that was my conclusion that you already knew! [Y]

MJD

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227834#Comment_227834

What do you mean by, verse boundaries??

thanks,

Mike

Anthony U

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227832#Comment_227832

OK - that worked - thanks, but it doesn't seem right to me.

Does this mean that Logos searches only within a verse and not between them? What are verse boundaries? Shouldn't verse numbers, and other markings, not even come into play in a bible search?

This might be time to post a suggestion.

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227836#Comment_227836

Michael, the search result Anthony was looking for was over Luke 9:55 and 56.

@ Anthony--I have not seen any detailed reasoning. Maybe Steve has some? Pretty Please? But I agree.

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227835#Comment_227835

What do you mean by, verse boundaries??

Bible and Morph searches only look for words within a verse. Therefore Jesus AND Christ will find a verse that has both terms but not adjacent verses where one has Jesus and the other has Christ. A proximity search will only work for two (or more) words within a single verse, the engine won't look beyond verse boundaries.

A Basic search uses chapters as its frame of reference. Therefore a proximity search will ignore versification and you can find words that are in different verses.

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227840#Comment_227840

@ Anthony--I have not seen any detailed reasoning. Maybe Steve has some? Pretty Please? But I agree.

... particularly given that the verse number is artificial when compared to the original text. (I know, "duh")

steve clark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227836#Comment_227836

This had quiet a discussion many months back, but i haven't located that post.

But here is another post where this came up: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/27613/204398.aspx#204398

Bible searches are performed on a verse by verse basis.

Basic searches are performed on a chapter by chapter basis (per Dave).

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227844#Comment_227844

Thank you, Steve--on top of things as always!

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227844#Comment_227844

Another example: wept WITHIN 36 WORDS Lazarus

Doing a Basic Search of a Bible collection can find words in nearby verses and pericopes (e.g. "Jesus Raises Lazarus") within a chapter that a Bible search cannot. Changing search to wept WITHIN 181 WORDS Lazarus finds results in 20 Bibles (verses John 11:35 and 11:43).

Contrast: a Bible search for Jesus NEAR Lazarus does find verses with both words.

Keep Smiling [:)]

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227859#Comment_227859

Um...based on what I've read in this thread, I conclude that using OPERATORS in Bible searches is pointless, correct?

Actually, I guess that is a bit of an overstatement. But the use of NEAR and WITHIN seems pointless.

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227873#Comment_227873

Um...based on what I've read in this thread, I conclude that using OPERATORS in Bible searches is pointless, correct?

Actually, I guess that is a bit of an overstatement. But the use of NEAR and WITHIN seems pointless.

No it's not pointless, but it's only good for matching within individual verses. And since verses generally means sentences, you shouldn't use proximity operators if you expect the two words to be found in different sentences or different verses. In many cases, though, using "AND" (which is the assumed operator if multiple words are entered) will be sufficient for verse searches.

I find BEFORE and AFTER to be the operators I use most with the Bible search.

steve clark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227874#Comment_227874

This also seems to be the way Libronix (Logos3) works.

Bible search does not find rebuke NEAR village

Basic search finds rebuke NEAR village

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227874#Comment_227874

Um...based on what I've read in this thread, I conclude that using OPERATORS in Bible searches is pointless, correct?

Actually, I guess that is a bit of an overstatement. But the use of NEAR and WITHIN seems pointless.

No it's not pointless, but it's only good for matching within individual verses. And since verses generally means sentences, you shouldn't use proximity operators if you expect the two words to be found in different sentences or different verses.

Thread http://community.logos.com/forums/t/27679.aspx includes Kevin Becker's desire for morph searches to cross verse boundaries. Likewise wish basic search could cross chapter boundaries.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227874#Comment_227874

No it's not pointless, but it's only good for matching within individual verses. And since verses generally means sentences, you shouldn't use proximity operators if you expect the two words to be found in different sentences or different verses.

yes, not pointless. But I sometimes remember words in different sentences but in a close context and am trying to locate them. Bible searching as currently constructed would be pointless. I don't know the technical side, but I agree--not only would I like to see Bible search transcend verse, but also chapter (although I can't imagine too many scenarios when the latter will trip me up -- but it might.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227879#Comment_227879

I agree that WITHIN/NEAR searches shouldn't be affected by boundaries (be they article, chapter, or verse boundaries). That's because logically using WITHIN or NEAR you are specifying the extent of the matching within the query (WITHIN 10 WORDS). But with AND and OR you don't specify the extent of the matching within the query, and therefore it's reasonable for Logos to do that for you.

It would also be excellent to have WITHIN 10 VERSES or WITHIN 4 CHAPTERS, or perhaps even WITHIN 1 BOOK for Bible searches.

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227932#Comment_227932

I agree that WITHIN/NEAR searches shouldn't be affected by boundaries (be they article, chapter, or verse boundaries). That's because logically using WITHIN or NEAR you are specifying the extent of the matching within the query (WITHIN 10 WORDS). But with AND and OR you don't specify the extent of the matching within the query, and therefore it's reasonable for Logos to do that for you.

It would also be excellent to have WITHIN 10 VERSES or WITHIN 4 CHAPTERS, or perhaps even WITHIN 1 BOOK for Bible searches.

[Y]

Anthony U

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227932#Comment_227932

Can you Power Users make a call to the higher ups at Logos to get this done? Or, do I have to intercede in prayer the way I did to get Large Text searching? lol

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227956#Comment_227956

Can you Power Users make a call to the higher ups at Logos to get this done? Or, do I have to intercede in prayer the way I did to get Large Text searching?

I think your second suggestion is more powerful than the first!

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227876#Comment_227876

This also seems to be the way Libronix (Logos3) works.

Bible search does not find rebuke NEAR village

Basic search finds rebuke NEAR village

Another switch would be welcome so that on could search delimited by verse boundaries or not delimited by verse boundaries -- as someone commented earlier, the verses are artificial.

RyanB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227932#Comment_227932

I agree that WITHIN/NEAR searches shouldn't be affected by boundaries
(be they article, chapter, or verse boundaries). That's because
logically using WITHIN or NEAR you are specifying the extent of the
matching within the query (WITHIN 10 WORDS). But with AND and OR
you don't specify the extent of the matching within the query, and
therefore it's reasonable for Logos to do that for you.

It would also be excellent to have WITHIN 10 VERSES or WITHIN 4 CHAPTERS, or perhaps even WITHIN 1 BOOK for Bible searches.

[Y] [Y] [Y]

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/228011#Comment_228011

But with AND and OR
you don't specify the extent of the matching within the query, and
therefore it's reasonable for Logos to do that for you.

Except, that even with AND and OR it is possible to define a personally defined range - and give it a name that can be reused in subsequent searches. There may be default ranges for AND and OR - if so make them clear in the results. Build a description of the default range into the header of the result page so there is no doubt as to what was searched. It would make sense for the same to be true for all searches.

Whatever range is searched and regardless of the kind of search, verse and chapter boundaries should be ignored. I cannot see a reason to ignore book boundaries.

Anthony U

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227966#Comment_227966

how right you are - I should know better!

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/228016#Comment_228016

Except, that even with AND and OR it is possible to define a personally defined range - and give it a name that can be reused in subsequent searches. There may be default ranges for AND and OR - if so make them clear in the results. Build a description of the default range into the header of the result page so there is no doubt as to what was searched. It would make sense for the same to be true for all searches.

Whatever range is searched and regardless of the kind of search, verse and chapter boundaries should be ignored. I cannot see a reason to ignore book boundaries.

No, this isn't the case. You can't ignore verse and chapter boundaries for an AND search. If I do a search for God AND love in Matt-Jn, I mean that I want God and love to appear in the same xxxx, where xxxx=verse or xxxx=chapter. In other words, I'm search a large range (Matt - Jn) for all the occurrences of two words within a short range (any single verse/chapter).

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227932#Comment_227932

I agree that WITHIN/NEAR searches shouldn't be affected by boundaries (be they article, chapter, or verse boundaries). That's because logically using WITHIN or NEAR you are specifying the extent of the matching within the query (WITHIN 10 WORDS). But with AND and OR you don't specify the extent of the matching within the query, and therefore it's reasonable for Logos to do that for you.

It would also be excellent to have WITHIN 10 VERSES or WITHIN 4 CHAPTERS, or perhaps even WITHIN 1 BOOK for Bible searches.

count me in!

steve clark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227932#Comment_227932

It would also be excellent to have WITHIN 10 VERSES or WITHIN 4 CHAPTERS, or perhaps even WITHIN 1 BOOK for Bible searches.

It would be interesting from a programmer's perspective how you would display the results on a screen (since they may be separated by many lines).

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/228109#Comment_228109

It would be interesting from a programmer's perspective how you would display the results on a screen (since they may be separated by many lines).

A Basic Search on Bible Text will show how that is handled ie. a few lines of contiguous text with hits + a hit count.

Frank Fenby

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/227956#Comment_227956

Can you Power Users make a call to the higher ups at Logos to get this done?

Please do.

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