PBB Update?

Michael Lyman
Michael Lyman Member Posts: 671 ✭✭

Dear whoever is leading the way with PBB,

Could we please get some kind of regular update where PBB is heading and when it might start arriving in Beta's? This is the number one reason I still use Libronix to access my John Gill works and other books that are only available through PBB.

Gill is languishing in Community Pricing and I have no hope for seeing it in Logos 4 except through PBB, even though there is probably no one as versed in Rabbinic literature like and no one else who has written a commentary on the Entire Bible that is still used regularly by many people of different denominations.

We have waited patiently and will continue to wait, but it sure would be nice to hear about it on a regular basis especially since it is due again... this quarter.

Thanks.

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Comments

  • Frank Sauer
    Frank Sauer Member Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭✭

    Bob gave some great insight on not only PBB but also a lot more, here's the link:

    http://community.logos.com/forums/t/33263.aspx

    Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14

  • Michael Lyman
    Michael Lyman Member Posts: 671 ✭✭

    Thanks! It's so hard to figure out which thread the latest news you want to know about can be found. It would be great if there was a Bob e-mail list or something. If there already is please let me know how to sign up!

  • TCBlack
    TCBlack Member Posts: 10,980 ✭✭✭

    No such email list, unless you count Logos Newswire.  

    Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

  • Floyd  Johnson
    Floyd Johnson Member Posts: 4,002 ✭✭✭

    There is this entry in the Wiki - though I don't know how well it is maintained:

          http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_Speaks

    Blessings,
    Floyd

    Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

  • Rosie Perera
    Rosie Perera Member Posts: 26,194 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks! It's so hard to figure out which thread the latest news you want to know about can be found. It would be great if there was a Bob e-mail list or something. If there already is please let me know how to sign up!

    You can do a Google search for "Bob Pritchett Posted" site:community.logos.com

     

  • Todd White
    Todd White Member Posts: 71 ✭✭

    It would be great if there was a Bob e-mail list or something.

    Each person has a 'My Activity' section on their page. Bob's page is http://community.logos.com/members/2130/default.aspx.

    Also, you will find a link to an RSS feed next to 'My Activity' (http://community.logos.com/members/2130/activities/rss.aspx). Websites like Google Reader help you keep track of what is new in any RSS feeds you are watching.

  • Rosie Perera
    Rosie Perera Member Posts: 26,194 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Also, you will find a link to an RSS feed next to 'My Activity' (http://community.logos.com/members/2130/activities/rss.aspx). Websites like Google Reader help you keep track of what is new in any RSS feeds you are watching.

    Cool! Thanks!

  • NetworkGeek
    NetworkGeek Member Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭

    You can do a Google search for "Bob Pritchett Posted" site:community.logos.com

     

    It may be easier to just check out the list of his forum posts here.

  • J. Wright
    J. Wright Member Posts: 31 ✭✭

    I, too, read Bob's statement, but it doesn't give much info other than "it isn't ready yet."  I upgraded to Logos 4 because the "coming soon" features included PBB.  The release date of which has been changed at least twice, and now it appears it may not be ready by the end of this quarter.  It's good to know that it hasn't been abandoned, but I'm a bit disappointed that every promised "coming the quarter of..." has come and gone. The forthcoming PBB was the major selling point for me to upgrade to 4.0.

    Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice...

  • Rev Chris
    Rev Chris Member Posts: 570 ✭✭

    J. Wright said:

    I, too, read Bob's statement, but it doesn't give much info other than "it isn't ready yet."  I upgraded to Logos 4 because the "coming soon" features included PBB.  The release date of which has been changed at least twice, and now it appears it may not be ready by the end of this quarter.  It's good to know that it hasn't been abandoned, but I'm a bit disappointed that every promised "coming the quarter of..." has come and gone. The forthcoming PBB was the major selling point for me to upgrade to 4.0.

    Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice...

     


    I'm learning to just ignore all Logos projection dates. I think there are more delays than fulfilled promises/estimates.

    Pastor, seminary trustee, and app developer.  Check out my latest app for churches: The Church App

  • J. Wright
    J. Wright Member Posts: 31 ✭✭

    Not to sound overly harsh, but I'm learning to do the same.  And learning I may want to start looking into other options that will suit my study needs.

  • tom
    tom Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭

    Rev Chris said:

    I'm learning to just ignore all Logos projection dates. I think there are more delays than fulfilled promises/estimates.

    Personally, I have never seen Logos even come close to any projection date they have published.  When any of my prepubs is first given a date, I have always added two months to this date, and Logos has never came in on time with I include my two additional months.

    NOTE: I do not track prepubs that I am not buying.  Therefore, other prepubs could have made their projected date.

  • Rev Chris
    Rev Chris Member Posts: 570 ✭✭

    Rev Chris said:

    I'm learning to just ignore all Logos projection dates. I think there are more delays than fulfilled promises/estimates.

    Personally, I have never seen Logos even come close to any projection date they have published.  When any of my prepubs is first given a date, I have always added two months to this date, and Logos has never came in on time with I include my two additional months.

    NOTE: I do not track prepubs that I am not buying.  Therefore, other prepubs could have made their projected date.

    I think I've seen some single-book releases get published on-time, but it seems that multi-volume works never do.

    Pastor, seminary trustee, and app developer.  Check out my latest app for churches: The Church App

  • J. Wright
    J. Wright Member Posts: 31 ✭✭

    Honestly, the delayed pre-pubs don't bother me as much (I don't purchase many pre-pubs as the Silver library has a lot of resources I use regularly).  But a promised feature to be included in the software - which is used as a selling point of why one should upgrade - that frustrates me.  I upgraded because PBB was promised to be included within a few months.  I spent money on something that I still can't use as advertised.  We're now over 12 months past that original deadline/promise.  Never in my life have I had a business tell me if I purchased something and they would throw in such-and-such features/extras have I waited well over a year to actually receive it.  And there's still no official word on when it may be available.  As stated in the Princess Bride, it's truly "inconceivable".

  • tom
    tom Member Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭

    J. Wright said:

    Honestly, the delayed pre-pubs don't bother me as much (I don't purchase many pre-pubs as the Silver library has a lot of resources I use regularly).  But a promised feature to be included in the software - which is used as a selling point of why one should upgrade - that frustrates me.  I upgraded because PBB was promised to be included within a few months.  I spent money on something that I still can't use as advertised.  We're now over 12 months past that original deadline/promise.  Never in my life have I had a business tell me if I purchased something and they would throw in such-and-such features/extras have I waited well over a year to actually receive it.  And there's still no official word on when it may be available.  As stated in the Princess Bride, it's truly "inconceivable".

    Missing production dates is simply bad customer service. 

    We are now basically 2/3 of the way through the second quarter.  There is no way Logos can now get PBB into their production environment by the 2nd quarter of 2011 as they state on their website (unless they skip the entire beta cycle).

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 54,964

    J. Wright said:

    But a promised feature to be included in the software - which is used as a selling point of why one should upgrade - that frustrates me.  I upgraded because PBB was promised to be included within a few months.  I spent money on something that I still can't use as advertised.

    I agree with you but with 2 reservations: (1) Having worked in IT most my life, I learned never to believe estimated delivery dates unless there was as immovable required date behind them (tax software tends to be on time [;)]) (2) we as users made demands for features that were given higher priority - reading layouts, search while typing. Unfortunately for me, these were not features I wanted more than the promised sharing of files and PBB's but Logos has yet to realize that they'd make oodles more money if they did what I want first. [:D]

     

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Rev Chris
    Rev Chris Member Posts: 570 ✭✭

    Just goes back to the theory that they should stop giving us projected dates for things that are too difficult to reasonably estimate.

    Pastor, seminary trustee, and app developer.  Check out my latest app for churches: The Church App

  • Ron
    Ron Member Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭

    Rev Chris said:

    Just goes back to the theory that they should stop giving us projected dates for things that are too difficult to reasonably estimate.

    I don't see that solving the problem...you will get just as many people saying "Can you please give us an update or tell us SOMETHING about XYZ?" as you get now complaining about giving target dates and then missing them.

  • J. Wright
    J. Wright Member Posts: 31 ✭✭

    Well, I know lots and lots of people who are IT professionals, so I
    fully understand the timing that's involved with code work.  It's
    tedious, difficult, and takes very special attention to detail.  I
    understand this very well.  Nevertheless, I've made a ton of software
    purchases through the years, and never has a promised feature/patch gone
    over a year without being made available. 

    As for your #2), I can see why you may have a reservation there.  But I only made the purchase based on the promise of PBB support.  I paid $...Logos didn't provide what I paid for.  I believe I've been lied to...and I don't like being lied to.

    All that said, I think I've stated everything I needed/wanted to say.  Rant=officially over.

  • Rev Chris
    Rev Chris Member Posts: 570 ✭✭

    J. Wright said:

    I believe I've been lied to...and I don't like being lied to.

     

    I generally think of a lie as an intentional misleading of truth.  Now, we can't possibly know the intentions of the Logos staff, but I'd venture a guess as to say they were just wrong - not that they lied to us.  The problem, as I see it, is that they are wrong way more than they are right and should probably be way more conservative in the estimates they give people.  For something like PBB, nobody is going to be upset that you promised a 2-year waiting period and then delivered it in 1 year.  (I can see people getting upset with early delivering of prepubs where money is at stake, but even then if you give a fair notice I think people would be generally happy).

    Pastor, seminary trustee, and app developer.  Check out my latest app for churches: The Church App

  • J. Wright
    J. Wright Member Posts: 31 ✭✭

    Rev Chris said:

    J. Wright said:

    I believe I've been lied to...and I don't like being lied to.

     

    I generally think of a lie as an intentional misleading of truth.  Now, we can't possibly know the intentions of the Logos staff, but I'd venture a guess as to say they were just wrong - not that they lied to us.  The problem, as I see it, is that they are wrong way more than they are right and should probably be way more conservative in the estimates they give people.  For something like PBB, nobody is going to be upset that you promised a 2-year waiting period and then delivered it in 1 year.  (I can see people getting upset with early delivering of prepubs where money is at stake, but even then if you give a fair notice I think people would be generally happy).

    I agree.  And I made the decision to upgrade based on statements made
    then about PBB (and other features) being available within the next 3
    months.  "Order now for this special price...and while these features
    aren't available yet, they will be in the next few months."  That was
    essentially the quote.

    In essence, in this particular situation I
    DO believe it was an intentional misleading of truth.  To be over a year
    late, somebody somewhere had to know and be saying, "There's no way
    we're going to get this feature (and some others) out there anytime soon."  But there it
    was on the website, "Order now for this special price!..."  

    As a
    student of all things scripture, I understand the virtue of patience,
    the fruit of the Spirit, etc.  But in the end, I believe I was lied to
    in order to get a sale.  I believe I, and many others were intentionally
    mislead by the marketing, the "special price", and the "these features
    are coming soon" campaign.

    I'm not the kind of person that wants
    something for nothing.  I just want what I paid for.  And honestly, I
    don't think that's too much to ask.

     

  • Frank Sauer
    Frank Sauer Member Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭✭

    J. Wright - I had much the same experience when wanting to take advantage of special upgrade pricing... PBB and Sermon File are being finished up for release... Yet PBB still not around and based on recent statements... Well looks like Sermon file is going to be delayed even further off into the future and get stuck with some kind of web site link of unexplained degree... Guess even after all the complaints that Logos has had about library.logos.com and biblia.com they are going to just continue plugging away at more and more websites instead of actually releasing quality updates to the main platform.

    If I wanted websites, I'd build them myself or use existing ones... I paid Logos for Bible Study SOFTWARE!!! That is still not complete almost two years later with nothing but open ended unfulfilled promises...

    After this last "coolest website" ordeal - well I am now officially in the Buyer Beware realm of ANY recommendation of Logos...

    #EpicFail

    Sad part is they already have our money and if we sell it still has no impact on them... They're too busy building websites... lol

    Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14

  • William Baptiste SFO
    William Baptiste SFO Member Posts: 21 ✭✭

    To my fellow long-suffering Logos users

    May the Peace and Joy of Jesus settle deeply into your souls!

    I understand the many frustrations vented in this thread.  Although I had wanted it for a long time, I finally ordered the Personal Book Builder because I was upgrading to Logos 4 anyway and Logos told me the PBB would be updated for use within Logos 4 within a certain number of months (long past now).  I was so excited to get it that I started building many public domain Logos books with the older software anyway, but the enthusiasm eventually died out and I decided to wait for the new version (also more pressing matters forced me to shelve these projects).  So I and we still wait.  Not only for the PBB but also for highlighting within the Logos iPhone application.

    On the good side, Our Lord Jesus is perfecting our patience!  God knows that these technological marvels will be useful not only for our own study but towards the re-Christianization/rebaptism of our culture with His Love and for His Glory.  Logos' position as a Christian witness at the cutting edge of our technologically advanced "post-Christian" Western culture is an important ministry and a very special blessing to all of us, and although we can be tempted to complain about delays in the particular features we most desire, we can use these feelings of frustration as opportunities to PRAY for Logos and its many projects-in-process, utilizing the power the Holy Spirit of our adoption into God's Family has given us to unleash angels into human affairs. 

    Let us acknowledge our frustrations and then offer them to God in prayer for Logos Bible Software!  Let us pray that God sends both (technologically skilled) men and angels to Logos' aid!  In this way we can be part of the ministry which Logos has to our technological culture, supporting them AS ONE BODY by our prayers!

    Besides, I have just been encouraged that Logos does not always take forever to respond to our requests.  My recent post about misleading information on the new Von Balthasar Collection Pre-Pub ( http://community.logos.com/forums/t/33614.aspx ) was acted upon in only a day (albeit by removing rather than correcting the misleading sentence).  So quick action is possible!  Let us support it in the many more complex matters Logos deals with by being Prayer Warriors on behalf of Logos and the important service to God's Kingdom they provide as "salt and light" within the technology industry!

    May the LORD bless and keep you all.

    Glory be to Jesus Christ!  Glory be Forever!

    -- brotherunity@ymail.com -- http://christian-unity-in-diversity.ourchur.ch/

  • Mark Smith
    Mark Smith MVP Posts: 11,834

    Well, I have to share the frustration about the interminable delays over PBB in 4.0. I agree that we were given a bunch of assurances when offered a partially completed product. It is true we had increased functionality when we upgraded, but the promise of PBB to be delivered in 2010 was clearly made. Since that promise was made we've seen programming resources devoted to the Mac, to iOS, to some new worship presentation software, to a redesign of the Logos.com website, and a number of other initiatives, and we still have no PBB.

    I don't claim to have any insight into why PBB been delayed; Bob has given his input. Still, the appearance that Logos has decided to put its effort elsewhere is clearly to be seen. Whether any of this has contributed, or will contribute, to the delay of PBB is something we don't know. It is possible that all possible resources are directed toward PBB that can be effectively done so and that these other developments have in no way detracted from the development of PBB. We don't know, but I understand the suspicion some have concerning this.

    We should remember that PBB publishing was an optional extra in 3.0. Very few probably had the builder. Most of us could read PBB files even if we could not publish them.That is what we cannot do now.

    I would favor giving us the ability to at least read PBB files in 4.0 even if later on those same files need to be rebuilt so enhanced features can be incorporated. Let the once optional publisher be yet in the future as it is developed along the lines we have been promised. In the meantime we'd be able to read and search our PBB files. 

    Can we have an interim solution that could be produced in reasonable time?

    Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

    Bridgeport, CT USA

  • NetworkGeek
    NetworkGeek Member Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭

    I would like to add to these concerns that with all the functionality needs that have been voiced on these forums, UserVoice, etc., both the current beta (4.3) and the current release (4.2b) both appear to be updates that are virtually feature free.  It's nice some bugs are being fixed, and it could certainly be the case that infrastructure behind the scenes is laying ground work for a slew of functionality updates in the next 6 months, but if that is not happening we have gotten very little in terms of functionality updates on the PC platform since 4.2a in March.  The list of small features updates needed  is long too; there are a lot of small-ish improvements that are really needed to make Logos less clumsy and less oriented to the way some would have us use the product.

    Money is being invested in resources on a  lot of platforms, and I too am not pleased that this has happened long before version 4 replaced ALL the functions that version 3 had. I am still miffed that I lost the lectionaries I used because the ability to create our own were taken away, and very few of the popular lectionaries have been made available (certainly not the daily Roman Catholic one that I use). I miss my PBB files greatly also, and I second Mark's suggestion if Logos could at least let us read them in the interim.  I am a small PBB reader compared to some, but I know exactly what resources I am missing - and there are 122 of them.

    Version 4 really has a lot of rich functionality, and I love it. We should be here in summer of 2010 though, not now.  I think Logos has made me very wary of the future when it didn't finish the job and has moved on to other platforms to the expense of the PC platform.

  • Rosie Perera
    Rosie Perera Member Posts: 26,194 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Can we have an interim solution that could be produced in reasonable time?

    Bob has already told us that they've been actively developing PBB and it's going be released soon (understanding "soon" in the usual way with Logos, or any development team, where things can take longer than you anticipated, even in the final stages).

    Doing some other interim solution would probably take longer at this point than simply finishing what they've already put over a year of work into.

    I am one who is eagerly awaiting PBB, but I think Logos is doing the best they can to get it finish. They have different teams working on different things and have not "delayed" PBB in order to get something else done first. It's just taking longer for the PBB team (or person?) to do the work. I don't know whether putting more people on it at this stage would get it finished sooner. There's an old adage in computer science from The Mythical Man-month, that putting more people on a project does not necessarily speed up the process; the added complexity of having more people working on it (communications, understanding each others' parts of the code, documentation, etc.) can actually eat up all the extra benefit you get from having more hands at work. Just as you can't make a baby in less than 9 months by adding more human resources to the task, usually you can't bring out software twice as quickly by having twice as many people working on it. There's a magical number for each level of complexity of a project beyond which it is not helpful to add more. I'm sure they've got this project as fully staffed as they can, because it's important to them.

  • Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)
    Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) MVP Posts: 23,162

    Thankful for Bob Pritchett's post couple weeks ago (previously posted) => What Logos development is doing that includes:

    P.S. Know a great software developer? Send them our way!

    For many months, Logos has had open Software Development positions for many platforms => http://www.logos.com/about/careers

    I miss my PBB files greatly also, and I second Mark's suggestion if Logos could at least let us read them in the interim. 

    [Y] Also wish Logos 4 could read and search Libronix 3 PBB's.  Thankful Libronix 3.0g can freely read old PBB's.

    Keep Smiling [:)]

  • Milford Charles Murray
    Milford Charles Murray Member Posts: 5,004 ✭✭✭

    Thank You Indeed, Rosie, for your post!

    Blessings and Peace to you!

                A very refreshing post.  Frankly, I'm getting a little tired of all the moaning and groaning and whining I've read on these Logos Forums over the last few days.  Very depressing!

                             Keep up your "good manners" --  and you, dear Rosie, are never "rude" (at least that I can remember!)                \  

                                               *smile*

    Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    Just as you can't make a baby in less than 9 months by adding more human resources to the task,

    The Old Testament does document polygamy......................................................................        [:O]

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Rosie Perera
    Rosie Perera Member Posts: 26,194 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just as you can't make a baby in less than 9 months by adding more human resources to the task,

    The Old Testament does document polygamy......................................................................        Surprise

    Yup, but even with multiple wives, you still can't make any particular baby in less than 9 months. You might make 3 or 4 babies in that same amount of time, though (and without even needing to do twins or triplets). So think of that as an analogy to what Logos is doing. In the time they're doing PBB (which they can't shorten no matter how hard they try) they are also doing Vyrso, Proclaim, and adding infrastructure to allow sharing and collaboration in a future release. And bringing out a bunch of pre-pubs as well...  They've got parallel teams working on these separate things in tandem, not taking time away from one priority to do another.

  • Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)
    Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) MVP Posts: 23,162

    Just as you can't make a baby in less than 9 months by adding more human resources to the task,

    The Old Testament does document polygamy......................................................................        Surprise

    Yup, but even with multiple wives, you still can't make any particular baby in less than 9 months. You might make 3 or 4 babies in that same amount of time, though (and without even needing to do twins or triplets). So think of that as an analogy to what Logos is doing. In the time they're doing PBB (which they can't shorten no matter how hard they try) they are also doing Vyrso, Proclaim, and adding infrastructure to allow sharing and collaboration in a future release. And bringing out a bunch of pre-pubs as well...  They've got parallel teams working on these separate things in tandem, not taking time away from one priority to do another.

    Noticed => Important changes to sync feature coming in 4.3 Beta 6 includes:


    The re-writing of the sync feature is being done in order to pave the way for some exciting future features (groups, sharing, collaboration, etc.)

    Looking forward to exciting Logos 4 Bible Study improvements [:D] (wondering if sharing includes PBB's, Notes, etc)

    Keep Smiling [:)]


  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    I would favor giving us the ability to at least read PBB files in 4.0 even if later on those same files need to be rebuilt so enhanced features can be incorporated. Let the once optional publisher be yet in the future as it is developed along the lines we have been promised. In the meantime we'd be able to read and search our PBB files. 

    Um, you all are making me nervous about PBB. I'm wondering if we're on the same page.

    We can not read the old PBB files in Logos 4. That isn't happening and isn't being worked on. Those old PBB books were built from HTML, and we viewed them by literally embedding Internet Explorer into Libronix to allow presentation of the books.

    This had many problems:

    A) The books weren't in the native Logos format. They lacked some important functionality, and never integrated with notes, etc.

    B) IE broke us over and over, and we are no longer willing to be dependent on it. (I believe many of you have supported us in that decision.)

    Writing a "stop-gap" that reads the old PBB isn't going to work, because we'd have to either introduce a dependency on IE (nearly impossible, with our current platform, and technical suicide even if possible), OR we'd have to write something that parsed HTML into our internal formats, and that would be much harder than rewriting PBB from the ground up.

    The new PBB will read Word documents with the same markup as we used for the old PBB. Books will need to be recompiled from Word. (Old PBB books were technically compiled from HTML, but most people built them in Word and exported them to HTML.) This should, for most people, be much easier than the old system, will involve no exporting, and will work on Mac and Windows.

    If you built PBB books in HTML directly, you'll need to bring them into Word.

    If you hate Word / prefer OpenOffice, etc. we don't yet have a solution other than getting your book into Word's .DOCX format.

    The good news is, the new PBB generates "real" Logos format books, with complete functionality.

    The first release of PBB -- in a beta -- is imminent. It will let you compile and use books. It will not yet have support for sharing the books with others, because this is more complicated in a world of synchronization. It's coming, but it's a step behind our first priority, which is books compiling (on Mac and Windows).

    Just out of curiosity, for those who are anxiously awaiting PBB, what are you waiting for? The ability to create PBB books? Or the ability to read them? And if "read", which ones, from where?

     

  • Lynden O. Williams
    Lynden O. Williams MVP Posts: 9,014

    Bob, I am looking forward to sharing PBB books. Which ones, the ones that I create, which will appear on the Logos website in their store.

    Mission: To serve God as He desires.

  • Rev Chris
    Rev Chris Member Posts: 570 ✭✭

    Just out of curiosity, for those who are anxiously awaiting PBB, what are you waiting for? The ability to create PBB books? Or the ability to read them? And if "read", which ones, from where?

    Thanks Bob for the helpful response!  I'm glad to hear the first PBB release is imminent.  I'm guessing that is better than 'coming soon'? ;)  To answer your question, I'm most looking forward to the ability to create PBB's (and of course read the one's I created).  I'm sure there are others out there that will create PBB's that are suited to my fancy, but I'm more interested in importing ebooks and pdf articles into Logos that I already have.  My main hope is that there is an option to NOT publish our personal PBB's on the Logos marketplace, as there are some ebooks I've paid for that are in copyright status that I'd still like to import to Logos, but obviously couldn't put them up for public distribution.

    I'm guessing by the slow response of being able to post this message that lots of people are responding to your question as well!  (either that or my internet is just being slow right now) :)

    Pastor, seminary trustee, and app developer.  Check out my latest app for churches: The Church App

  • Rev Chris
    Rev Chris Member Posts: 570 ✭✭

    I guess I have my answer - my internet was being slow :(

    Pastor, seminary trustee, and app developer.  Check out my latest app for churches: The Church App

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 54,964

    the added complexity of having more people working on it (communications, understanding each others' parts of the code, documentation, etc.) can actually eat up all the extra benefit you get from having more hands at work.

    But there is also significant evidence that many IT shops can be significantly more productive by working smarter ....[8-|]

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Frank Sauer
    Frank Sauer Member Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭✭

    I for one was never anxious for PBB (sermon file here) however the functionality that you are explaining the new PBB to do sounds exactly like what the original Sermon File Addin accomplished. Will the first release of PBB allow for example the same or similar "tagging" fields as the original Sermon File addin to allow a sharp accuracy within meta data and searching? If so, I believe you will have made most, if not all the Sermon File users very happy with this type of release.

    As for the old PBB files, I only used a few public domain resources in that format that really would not hurt my feelings to have to convert...

     

     

    I would favor giving us the ability to at least read PBB files in 4.0 even if later on those same files need to be rebuilt so enhanced features can be incorporated. Let the once optional publisher be yet in the future as it is developed along the lines we have been promised. In the meantime we'd be able to read and search our PBB files. 

    Um, you all are making me nervous about PBB. I'm wondering if we're on the same page.

    We can not read the old PBB files in Logos 4. That isn't happening and isn't being worked on. Those old PBB books were built from HTML, and we viewed them by literally embedding Internet Explorer into Libronix to allow presentation of the books.

    This had many problems:

    A) The books weren't in the native Logos format. They lacked some important functionality, and never integrated with notes, etc.

    B) IE broke us over and over, and we are no longer willing to be dependent on it. (I believe many of you have supported us in that decision.)

    Writing a "stop-gap" that reads the old PBB isn't going to work, because we'd have to either introduce a dependency on IE (nearly impossible, with our current platform, and technical suicide even if possible), OR we'd have to write something that parsed HTML into our internal formats, and that would be much harder than rewriting PBB from the ground up.

    The new PBB will read Word documents with the same markup as we used for the old PBB. Books will need to be recompiled from Word. (Old PBB books were technically compiled from HTML, but most people built them in Word and exported them to HTML.) This should, for most people, be much easier than the old system, will involve no exporting, and will work on Mac and Windows.

    If you built PBB books in HTML directly, you'll need to bring them into Word.

    If you hate Word / prefer OpenOffice, etc. we don't yet have a solution other than getting your book into Word's .DOCX format.

    The good news is, the new PBB generates "real" Logos format books, with complete functionality.

    The first release of PBB -- in a beta -- is imminent. It will let you compile and use books. It will not yet have support for sharing the books with others, because this is more complicated in a world of synchronization. It's coming, but it's a step behind our first priority, which is books compiling (on Mac and Windows).

    Just out of curiosity, for those who are anxiously awaiting PBB, what are you waiting for? The ability to create PBB books? Or the ability to read them? And if "read", which ones, from where?

     

     

    Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 54,964

    If you built PBB books in HTML directly, you'll need to bring them into Word.

    Yes, I'd picked that up from your earlier post and I am (glumly) making the conversion. But I keep my grousing private because you made the right decision here.

    Just out of curiosity, for those who are anxiously awaiting PBB, what are you waiting for? The ability to create PBB books?

    My existing L3 PBB's (shared or private) revolve around creeds, catechisms, liturgies and bible study methodology. I have been using L4 into making shareable Bible studies within L4 (rather than Dreamweaver) with an export into a publisher program.

    But I also miss my ability to make lectionaries, timelines and parallels (harmonies) in L4 - I had many in L3 (> 200)

    What I personally find the most frustrating was the missing features were promised for release well in advance of a new lectionary cycle (i.e. Year A) - a symbolically significant starting point for feeling I was on top of my tasks. Instead we are half way through the year and I can't build all the resources I need to be confident Year B will be in Logos 4. Sometimes the symbolic is more important than the factual ... I can pick up at any point in the cycle when the tools and resources are ready.

    (and so you know it's me - Luke 18:1-8 [:D])

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 54,964

    Rev Chris said:

    My main hope is that there is an option to NOT publish our personal PBB's on the Logos marketplace, as there are some ebooks I've paid for that are in copyright status that I'd still like to import to Logos, but obviously couldn't put them up for public distribution.

    We've already been given this assurance. You can drop this item from your worry-list.[;)]

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Bill Anderson
    Bill Anderson Member Posts: 603 ✭✭

    If you built PBB books in HTML directly, you'll need to bring them into Word.

    If you hate Word / prefer OpenOffice, etc. we don't yet have a solution other than getting your book into Word's .DOCX format.

    So, with Libronix, I would edit the text of a book that would eventually become a PBB resource. Then I would save it as filtered HTML and then use Builder Builder to add the tags to the HTML. Then I would use PBB Builder to create the final PBB.

    It sounds like I now have to take the tagged HTML files that I have archived and then bring them back into Word again as .docx. If I do that, will I have to strip out the old tags and retag? How much rework is this going to take?

    I was hoping the conversion of Libronix PBBs (I have released over 50 to the community) in Logos 4 would be drop-dead simple.

    Bill

     

  • Bob Pritchett
    Bob Pritchett Member, Logos Employee Posts: 2,280

    If you have a large investment in content tagged outside Word it might be a good idea to send us some of those files so we can experiment with them to make sure they import into Word right, or find another solution. You could email a sample (if you're willing) to slides@logos.com.

     

  • Blair Laird
    Blair Laird Member Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭

    Thanks for the info Bob,

    I am waiting for the ability to create books. I have a separate library for my public domain books on books.google.com. So if I want to search my library, I have to do it in two places. I am looking forward to the ability to have my library accessible from one search engine. 

  • Mark Smith
    Mark Smith MVP Posts: 11,834

    Um, you all are making me nervous about PBB. I'm wondering if we're on the same page.

    Who knows? I try to read your posts. I do expect the additional functionality you have been talking about.

    We can not read the old PBB files in Logos 4. That isn't happening and isn't being worked on. Those old PBB books were built from HTML, and we viewed them by literally embedding Internet Explorer into Libronix to allow presentation of the books.

    Fine, if there is no easy way to convert them to a format that Logos 4 can read then we'll have to await the full version.

    Just out of curiosity, for those who are anxiously awaiting PBB, what are you waiting for? The ability to create PBB books? Or the ability to read them? And if "read", which ones, from where?

    There are lots of PBB books already created. So if there will be a way to bring them over, that would be the bulk of them I'd be interested in now. I don't have the source files for any of these, so would be dependent on others to make this happen. Of course until sharing is enabled it sounds like PBB will be virtually useless in this regard to me.

    I would like to use PBB to produce Bible study notes, outlines, and so forth to use with my congregation members who have Logos, but that requires sharing be enabled.

    I'm sure others want to publish for their own use. I don't see myself doing that now (but that might change once I see what can be done). So, basically until sharing is enabled I wouldn't see myself using PBB for much at all. (That would add to the frustration of having to wait some more for the same PBB capability we had in 3.0 and I thought we were going to have in 2010.)

     

    Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

    Bridgeport, CT USA

  • Michael Lyman
    Michael Lyman Member Posts: 671 ✭✭

    Bob,

    I want to be able to use the books from Still Truth that I currently use in Libronix. Eventually I believe I would like to self publish and perhaps put pbulic domain works like hymnals in Logos 4 as well. Thanks for taking the time to reply!

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 54,964

    perhaps put pbulic domain works like hymnals in Logos 4 as well

    Which brings up the issue of attaching/sharing sound files embedded in a Word document.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Bohuslav Wojnar
    Bohuslav Wojnar Member Posts: 3,477 ✭✭✭

    Just out of curiosity, for those who are anxiously awaiting PBB, what are you waiting for? The ability to create PBB books? Or the ability to read them? And if "read", which ones, from where?

    What I am waiting for is first of all to be able to rebuild my private PBB books I created in v3 (like some Bible translations we still do not have in Logos) and also to be able to create some new books for my personal use.

    I can wait for the additional features like sharing via the Logos PBB e-book store, syncing etc. If it comes later, fine with me.

    I really appreciate Bob that you asked that question. Thank you. [Y]

    Bohuslav

  • Jacob Hantla
    Jacob Hantla MVP Posts: 3,877

    Just out of curiosity, for those who are anxiously awaiting PBB, what are you waiting for? The ability to create PBB books? Or the ability to read them? And if "read", which ones, from where?

    I really want to be able to distribute church documents in Logos including doctrinal statements, position papers, sermon transcripts, and devotional  readings (communion meditations etc). This obviously won't work without sharing, but that is what I am particularly excited about.

    As for things I'd like to import: I'd like to create a personal commentary of the in depth notes I've taken on passages. I'd like my commentary to be able to appear in Passage Guide and be searchable just like a book for easy reference to the work that I have done (formatting and editing limitations in Notes makes it so that this won't work well there).

    Jacob Hantla
    Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
    gbcaz.org

  • NetworkGeek
    NetworkGeek Member Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭

    Thanks Bob for the update, it is really encouraging.  I trust you understand our concern when we haven't heard specifics for quite a while and the "promise" of PBB is much much later than originally advertised. That will make customers nervous every time.

    Regarding your question, I have a few documents I would like to publish, and doing the work in Word sounds great to me. My first priority though is the books I have, which are also, like Mark's, from the stilltruth site. I hope I can just import them and read them, since it sounds like sharing is not going to be available for awhile. If I can convert what I have (and I do not have source) that would be ideal.  Just look at stilltruth.com to see the books I use in ver. 3...

  • Jack Caviness
    Jack Caviness MVP Posts: 13,605

    If you hate Word / prefer OpenOffice, etc. we don't yet have a solution other than getting your book into Word's .DOCX format.

    It's not that I hate Word. It is that Word for Mac will not handle Hebrew or any other right-to-left language. From the Office for Mac forums, this ability will never be implemented into Office for Mac.

    Just out of curiosity, for those who are anxiously awaiting PBB, what are you waiting for? The ability to create PBB books? Or the ability to read them? And if "read", which ones, from where?

    I would like to share some of the Bible Study notes I create for classes I teach.

  • Jack Caviness
    Jack Caviness MVP Posts: 13,605

    If you hate Word / prefer OpenOffice, etc. we don't yet have a solution other than getting your book into Word's .DOCX format.

    In addition to Word for Mac's inability to handle Hebrew text, it also will not accept links to Logos resources. In effect, the decision to base PBB on MS Word causes it to become a Windows only feature. So much for feature parity. [:@]

This discussion has been closed.