Leak from Dan "All Nighter" Pritchett: Logos is going to release some new cool website on Friday...

Matthew once again can you actually take my statements in context.... Instead of snipping one small statement out of the middle of the whole issue I have... Iwill continue to call on Logos to honor promises. Because if you were fair enough to quote me in entirety you'd clearly see it is with the failure of promises made from Day 1 of Beta testing which by your testimony you were not a part of... So you were not involved with all the debate, complaint and statements that we WOULD have all our features from V3 plus new and exciting ones. It is almost TWO years now and still nothing delivered... As a customer I have the right to complain, don't like it, ignore it... Just as I did with those whining about a feature I never use, notes...

I could care less what the make up is of our group - it does not excuse the ignorant and insulting name calling and personal attacks by a few users toward me because I dare question their Golden Calf....

Matthew C Jones said:

Frank Sauer said:

So as for features listed on the Logos 4 feature set, well they are there.

Then please quit accusing Logos of not delivering what they actually promised. Your assumed perceptions are unfortunately read into the actual statement and resulted in your unfounded expectations. (And the resultant disappointment.)

Frank Sauer said:

Having been a part of the Beta testing from the beginning I'm tired of the false promises and as stated the constant carrot in front of our faces with important features.

I have been a beta tester for other software but not Logos. . But if their program is anything like the rest of the industry you are told up front there are no promises, no obligations, and no guarantees. You are told your computer will likely crash. You will lose data. You will encounter bugs. That is the whole purpose of beta testing.

If you want a carrot, don't leave your barn stall, When horses run wild they may not get many carrots,  (wild=beta, barn=Logos 4.22.5.1109)

Frank Sauer said:

no recognition that Logos has failed us

Frank Sauer said:

I am not alone in this, as others have posted

Frank Sauer said:

and admit failure

Frank Sauer said:

form of an apology or public addressing of this practice

Frank, within the ranks of several hundreds of thousands of Logos users you can find:

1. a few "fan boys"
2. a few nut-jobs
3. a few whiners
4. a few who are never satisfied
5. one who is always content (my wife Nina)
6. a few clueless
7. a few with evil intent
8. a few too smart for their own good
9. and those who know they can run Logos better than Bob

Then there is a silent HUGE majority that are happily using their software and don't take up offenses on behalf of others. I'm sorry you don't find yourself in that majority.

Frank Sauer said:

outlines like Bob posted elsewhere are nice

The posts by Bob in this thread make wading through the rest worthwhile. When my 2 year old throws an item in the toilet I retrieve it, if the value is high enough.

Frank Sauer said:

However because I did not buy my foundational packages directly from Logos, they cannot be refunded so I am stuck beyond ebay...

As for an apology - misleading customers like myself at the Point of Sale, be it full package or upgrades absolutely deserves an apology!!!

You received everything you paid for when you bought v3, even if you didn't buy directly for Logos - the two of "the most requested and desired features" for v4 are part of v3, and from what I've read, you are using them. Anything you've purchased beyond v3 would have come directly though Logos. You can certainly ask for and expect to receive a refund for all your v4 purchases, especially NOW since you feel that you have been lied to by Logos. Under those circumstances, from what I know about Logos, they would be more than gracious to give you a refund on your v4 purchases.

Matthew C Jones said:

Let this thread memorialize something. If you don't like the way your posts look, quit posting them.

I wish you did the same right now, Matthew, as your posts aren't very de-escalating either. Both of you have made your points. You don't agree with each other - so be it. There's nothing to gain from keeping this thing alive.

Theolobias said:

Matthew C Jones said:

Let this thread memorialize something. If you don't like the way your posts look, quit posting them.

I wish you did the same right now, Matthew, as your posts aren't very de-escalating either. Both of you have made your points. You don't agree with each other - so be it. There's nothing to gain from keeping this thing alive.

[Y]

edited:  portions deleted in the spirit of reconciliation

I am happy to see the Vyrso announcement.

I don't agree with Frank's position, as I've made clear, nor the way he's made some of his points. But I do think some of the posts against him have overstepped the mark. This is not a way to win friends and influence people. More importantly I don't think it brings glory to God.

deleted in the spirit of reconciliation

deleted in the spirit of reconciliation

Matthew C Jones said:

Mark Barnes said:

But I do think some of the posts against him have overstepped the mark.

I do not condone everything said in the thread either. But I will add I find several of Frank's posts have overstepped the mark.

You quoted me just before I edited my post.

Denise Barnhart said:

That's my point, Otto ... I don't really need to interpret Frank's comments.

Yes of course...that is what I thought!!! I stand by what I said earlier - he is in so many words calling Bob a liar...

deleted in the spirit of reconciliation

deleted by the one-eyed puppy 

   for common decency

Greg Masone said:

The only thing you have ever paid money to Logos for has been for digital books,

This is not totally true.  Users paid for PBB and on top of that were asked to pay an annual license fee.  Some got sermon file add-in for free other's had to pay for it.  Whether or not what is important to Frank is important to you, doesn't mean he does not or should not have the opportunity to express his concerns.  The nay-sayers who keep telling him he has no right  to ask what is happening with software he has actually paid for on top of the digital books he has purchased, only serve to kindle the fire of his concerns.  If you don't agree then skip over his comments and move onto the next post.

deleted in the spirit of reconciliation

In a strange way I hope this thread can end up being positive.  Bob, I am sorry for how some of the things have been said in this thread, but I hope you know there is some major frustration in Logos land! 

For example I am missing a working PBB reader in Logos 4, and am not at all happy with the Logos 4 notes system.  The PBB could really add value for poor folks by allowning them to buy a lower level library and then add the nearly 1000 modules to that and have a good start library at a very low price.

A better note system is a key part of a total educational system and has been messed up for a year and half.  This system becomes more important as a person understands the value of being able to access their studies quickly and with ease.

On the other hand when Logos 4 came out I never dreamed of being able to access Logos for on an Android phone, let alone for free!

Although my goals and the goals of Logos are not always the same, I am very thankful for the work that is being done!

I have to admit that some days I wake up and I am so mad about Logos that I could just scream(think notes), but the next moment I find myself so thankful for what they have done!  They have changed the way I study and the resources I can use, they allow me to find information easier and quicker than ever before and I can store it in other programs that allow me access to my research in seconds.

So Bob, I hope this thread is positive for you and not just a downer.  You are the one working on so many projects and you know more about what you can and can not do and the order it can be done in, but know there is some frutration out here, but in my case it is because my goals and expectations have gotten so much bigger because of Logos, that I can hardly wait for the next step!

Your brother in Christ,

Jim Van Schoonhoven

Matthew C Jones said:

Bottom line: If Frank bought MS Word version 2.0 would he have standing to complain MS Word 2010 was not backward compatible?

Wrong forum , this is not Microsoft and we are talking about one version onwards about features that were promised, rather than approx 1991 v 2010 so for me not a helpful analogy.

Matthew C Jones said:

He could have started a new rant thread instead of hijacking this "good news" thread with his re-hash.

Brother,  have you never taken a thread in a different direction ?    That's what happens in conversation and what happens in forums, I though given your extensive experience on this forum you would have realised that.  As much as we'd like to think we can keep everything in neat little boxes....we'll life never happens like that ....so why would a forum thread ?

  And what some see is "good news" other's don't.  I am neither here nor there on this news at this point, but Logos need to keep moving forward as a business and I have no issue with the news and so have promoted the news through facebook and twitter because of my respect for Logos.....

My only concern and reason for commenting  is it seems things never change in these forums.... they are run by the Logos Fan boys, if you say something that even remotely smells like a negative comment against Logos...then look out.  These forums should not be  about who can jump in the quickest and stomp on any comments that don't praise Logos, they are forums for Logos users, and that means people will post about things they are not happy with.......

p.p1 {margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; text-indent: 18.0px; font: 12.0px Helvetica}

Philippians 4:2...

² I plead with [Frank] and I plead with [Matthew] to agree with each other in the Lord. ³ Yes, and I ask you, loyal [Logos Forum Contributors],^a help these [brothers] who have contended at [our] sides in the cause of the gospel, along with [Bob] and the rest of [our] fellow [Logos employees and users], whose names are in the book of life. 

⁴ Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! ⁵ Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. ⁶ Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. ⁷ And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. 

⁸ Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. ⁹ Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you. 

It has been painful reading through this thread.  I hope that no unbelievers have happened upon these discussions, because the comments and behaviour of some have been damaging to the name of Christ.  Brothers, why not agree to disagree, but more importantly make steps to publicly be reconciled in the name of Jesus Christ?  That would honour Him and the gospel that bears His name.  

No Otto,

I am not calling Bob a liar, and maybe all those who want to personally attack people for expressing their frustration for long overdue (based on Logos' own estimates) and promised features, should ignore and move on instead of agitating with ignorant name calling and flaming.

Otto S. Carroll said:

Denise Barnhart said:

I'm not sure why it's necessary to take Frank to task for his perspective. Judging from some of Bob's previous comments, he respects Frank's comments, though doesn't agree with them necessarily.

In so many words, Frank is basically calling Bob a liar. Accordingly, he should just ask for a refund and move on.

Mike Aubrey said:

Matthew C Jones said:

and,  Logos did list the Oxford Latin Dictionary as a Pre-Pub in 2009 and entered into development without having the license to sell it.   Luke 14:28-30

Are you saying that by putting it on pre-pub they were or were not counting the cost?

Really good question. I have always viewd the Pre-Pub and Community Pricing programs as a valiant attempt by Logos to comply with this passage. My concern with Oxford Latin Dictionary is the status change from "gathering interest" to "under development."  I can now see, from the Logos perspective, "under development" would include approaching the publisher to obtain rights to publish. Whereas securing those permissions without knowing if enough interest exists to follow through would be a violation of the "counting the cost" lesson.

From the outside it looks like Logos was not. (That is what happens when those of us in the dark start criticizing Logos.)

Frank Sauer said:

No Otto,

I am not calling Bob a liar, and maybe all those who want to personally attack people for expressing their frustration for long overdue (based on Logos' own estimates) and promised features,

Very well, Frank.

In view of the comments Bob made on this earlier, on what basis did you write the following: "I challenge what has been a failure to produce and the business model of promising things are right around the corner that are NOT being worked on..." (emphasis added)?  It is one thing to voice your concerns about the perceived lack of progress of features that Bob has said major focus is being given to, and it's another thing for you to continue saying these things are NOT being worked on, even as Bob continues to say otherwise.

Matthew C Jones said:

Andrew McKenzie said:

Wrong forum

If you want to differentiate forums, why not extend me the same courtesy to tell Frank, "Wrong thread?"

You were trying to compare apples with oranges hence my suggestion of wrong forum related only to your analogy, Microsoft and Logos simply don't compare.

Matthew C Jones said:

And they should not be about launching attacks that question the honesty and integrity of the the CEO.

Not sure where I said they should,  I was commenting about those who fuel the fires of other users frustrations.

Matthew C Jones said:

I noticed you did not address the fact Frank got everything he paid for in Libronix and has paid nothing for those features in Logos 4.

How you and I view that is very different,  I believe there is no free lunch, to me when a company says 'free', it says they believe the will recoup their cost through increased sales driven by increased brand loyalty, word of mouth about their "offer" from those loyal customers to friends, and the product expose to a wider range on potential new customers.  You may say nothing was paid for those features in Logos 4.  I say when Logos keeps its promise they will be paid for, just not directly.

I  leave you with right of reply if you feel the need but we are both one-eyed puppies, just of different varieties, so that's my last comment on our differences on this thread.

.

Otto S. Carroll said:

Just because your view may be clearly outnumbered by the opposing view doesn't make those holding those views "fan boys!!!" Seriously...

Otto, this is not a competition to see who has the most on their side... certainly not from my perspective.   And the label doesn't apply to every poster who disagrees with me.  I have not issue with people having different viewpoint in general.  What a boring place the world would be if everyone agreed with me all of the time.

Otto S. Carroll said:

I don't know of a single person here, based on what I've read, who has an issue with Frank voicing his concerns about the progress of features "promised" to him.

Obviously we are reading a different thread because my reading from the start of the thread is totally different.  And I am not talking about people raising concern where Frank may have overstepped the mark.  I have no problem with that if he made any inappropriate personal remarks about anyone.

Frank Sauer said:

Again Otto context is key... That statement is in regard to being told one thing at the point of sale and finding out different later. Not directed at Bob personally.

Even in that context, what is the basis for you to say that the features were not being worked on?

Per comments from Bob and based upon the user voice Logos page - Sermon File Addin is "planned" not started and is no where near close. I upgraded back in November sometime so we are on six months or so from then, let alone the previous year that it was insinuated by estimate dates starting in Quarter 1 of 2010 that it was being worked on... If it is still in planned stage and is going to be based off the final rendition of PBB to some degree as comments would point to, it is quite evident that in November it was not being worked on in the functional sense and very well may not be right now.

Otto S. Carroll said:

Frank Sauer said:

Again Otto context is key... That statement is in regard to being told one thing at the point of sale and finding out different later. Not directed at Bob personally.

Even in that context, what is the basis for you to say that the features were not being worked on?

Do we have a Guinness record here for fastest growing thread...lol...I'm just glad I'm a patience man.  I'm just gonna be happy and thankful the day I'm able to use my sermon file and PBB in Logos 4.  I will also be thankful and happy whenever we get the Android App because hopefully I'll get a new Droid tablet soon.  Hey, I might even get my first Droid phone too, my first real smart phone...;-)   

Have a great weekend!

Douglas