http://www.logos.com/product/16021/mormon-studies-collection
On community pricing.
Oh my word!
How cool is this, where else but Logos could you get such a marvelous resource without any risk that a penny will go to the LDS.
This is really exiting.
Hey, Martin Luther was a Catholic! I'm using "was" in a very strict sense here...
Hey, Martin Luther was a Catholic!
I'm using "was" in a very strict sense here...
I realize who Luther was, I was just having a bit of fun with words. I stand by my statement that Luther was Catholic. He just didn't stay Catholic.
I would say a very large percentage of us are catholic along with Luther.
cath•o•lic \ˈkath-lik, ˈka-thə-\ noun 15th century
I would say a very large percentage of us are catholic along with Luther. cath•o•lic \ˈkath-lik, ˈka-thə-\ noun 15th century : a person who belongs to the universal Christian church
: a person who belongs to the universal Christian church
Martin Luther "We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist." (Aug. 18, 1520) Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 2., pg. 121 by Froom. (In response to a papal bull [official decree]): "I despise and attack it, as impious, false... It is Christ Himself who is condemned therein... I rejoice in having to bear such ills for the best of causes. Already I feel greater liberty in my heart; for at last I know that the pope is antichrist, and that his throne is that of Satan himself." --D'Aubigné, b.6, ch. 9.
Luther was not speaking of the "small c" catholics. He specifically wrote of the papacy of the "large C" Roman Catholic organization.
Anyone acquainted with WELS should know this...and should not be muddying the waters with such rhetoric !
Read what true Lutherans have to say about the papacy here:
http://www.wels.net/about-wels/doctrinal-statements/antichrist
to do so you have to be scrupulously fair but fairness is very different to neutrality.
I think of it a little differently. When I read a novel, I suspend my disbelief - that is I get into the story as if it were real world while knowing I'm reading a book of fiction. I do something similar when reading theological books - I read it as if it were true. I observe places where the logic is bad or has holes in it from the perspective of the author. It i after I put the book down, that I evaluate it in terms of what I believe to be true. That's what I mean by neutrality.
Has it occurred to you that there are Mormon users of Logos? Just saying - don't assume that it's only of use for apologetics.
but I tend to search my whole library and I guess many people do the same. I'm thinking that a checkbox option like full or restricted search, together with the ability to over-ride what resources go in these would satisfy people of theological persuasions.
Now that we have the ability to search "My Content" I doubt I will ever search my whole library again. I suspect there is enough difference in what resources one considers reliable that the current method of the user defining the collection that is "all my library worth searching" themselves is better than Logos trying to define it for us.
deleted - a fun fact that might be misconstrued as troll food - seeH. H. Pope Shenouda III to guess what I might have been thinking ... always ready to broaden your horizons.[:D]
From 1999 http://www.lutheranworld.org/Special_Events/OfficialDocuments/jd97.EN.html re: Lutherans and Catholics.
I would have a one Book library left. What translation?
I would have a one Book library left.
What translation?
Which translation- that's easy, the same one Jesus, Peter, and Paul used. [;)]
Martin Luther
"We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist." (Aug. 18, 1520) Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 2., pg. 121 by Froom. (In response to a papal bull [official decree]): "I despise and attack it, as impious, false... It is Christ Himself who is condemned therein... I rejoice in having to bear such ills for the best of causes. Already I feel greater liberty in my heart; for at last I know that the pope is antichrist, and that his throne is that of Satan himself." --D'Aubigné, b.6, ch. 9.
You are aware, I assume, that there are others than the bishop of Rome that use the title Pope? hint: check out the North African churches.
Willard
I am quite clear on the position of the WELS toward the Papacy. I wholeheartedly agree with it. My posting is not meant to muddy the waters. There is a distinct difference between catholic and Catholic. Capital C acts as a personal name thus it is capitalized. As you might notice the "first" definition to catholic is the universal Christian church.
Willard I am quite clear on the position of the WELS toward the Papacy. I wholeheartedly agree with it. My posting is not meant to muddy the waters. There is a distinct difference between catholic and Catholic. Capital C acts as a personal name thus it is capitalized. As you might notice the "first" definition to catholic is the universal Christian church.
Luther was the Father of the Reformation. Have you studied why The roman church needed Reformation?
Need I remind you of the "Morningstar of the Reformation", John Wycliff? Or what about Jan Hus who read much of his writing and paid with his life? This was all before Luther. Of course, there was also Savonarola, but if my memory is correct, he was a bit of a kook.
Here is a gentle reminder of the forum rules.
Luther was the Father of the Reformation. Have you studied why The roman church needed Reformation? Need I remind you of the "Morningstar of the Reformation", John Wycliff? Or what about Jan Hus who read much of his writing and paid with his life? This was all before Luther. Of course, there was also Savonarola, but if my memory is correct, he was a bit of a kook.
http://www.amazon.com/Martin-Luther-Father-Reformation-Signature/dp/0756515939
Do not feed the troll!
i'd say he's pretty much learned to do it himself . . . [:O]
My only defense is that Luther is the one we were discussing.
May I remind you that this thread is on Mormon resources - not Luther, not the papacy etc.
If people insist on harping on Reformed doctrine in a thread on Mormons, can we at least limit it to the Latter Day Saints Reformed Church? The Mormon Studies Collection is missing any coverage on that branch. I would surely welcome a few books explaining the differences.
What Wycliff, Luther and the Popes have to do with this thread escapes me! [^o)]
VV TROLL ALERT! VV
I think it is clear that Logos intends these resources to be used for apologetic reasons - much like with the Islamic collection. I would have an issue with Logos marketing and labeling the Book of Mormon as a "Christian" resource. However, they have not - so I am fine with this collection. The same with the Catholic Collection?
I think it is clear that Logos intends these resources to be used for apologetic reasons - much like with the Islamic collection. I would have an issue with Logos marketing and labeling the Book of Mormon as a "Christian" resource. However, they have not - so I am fine with this collection.
No. The Catholic collection is not specifically intended for apologetic reasons, however; I am sure that many Logos users will pick it up for such reasons. It is clear that Logos considers the Roman Catholic faith a legitimate and valid "Christian" faith and the Mormon faith not. They have created and marketed a Roman Catholic base package along with a video series that quote "provides you with important insights and tips concerning how to use Logos within a Catholic Scripture study methodology".
Now if Logos created a Mormon base package along with a video series that helped Mormons use Logos within a Mormon Scripture study methodology - that would be a different story. This would be Logos clearly promoting the propagation of the Mormon faith as a legitimate "Christian" faith. To me this would be unacceptable. Could Logos do this? Yes. But because of the nature of their product - namely the Bible - many of its users would be offended and outraged. Has this happened with the way Logos promoted the Catholic faith? Maybe - but the majority of those on this forum have disagreed.
Looking at => http://www.logos.com/product/16021/mormon-studies-collection noticed Blood Atonement and the Origin of Plural Marriage: A Discussion has two authors, including: "Richard C. Evans was a member of the First Presidency of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He was later excommunicated from the Mormon Church for denying that God and Christ visited Joseph Smith."
Likewise noticed Mormon Studies Collection (45 vols.) has three volumes about systematic theology of Mormon doctrine.
... can we at least limit it to the Latter Day Saints Reformed Church? The Mormon Studies Collection is missing any coverage on that branch. I would surely welcome a few books explaining the differences.
Appears reformed branch has existed for 10 years, which is different than fundamentalist branch. Also
Searching Logos.com and Vryso.com for Mormon did not find any reformed nor reorganized Mormon resources; did find something to add to my wish list.
Keep Smiling [:)]
KS4J - I innocently thought I'd throw together a short timeline of the LDS only to find it wouldn't be short - or is my source not trustworthy?:
The following list of dissident groups is taken from the book Divergent Paths of Restoration:
FOUNDED BETWEEN 1830 AND 1844
NON-EXTANT MOVEMENTS FOUNDED 1844-1860
EXTANT MOVEMENTS
Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, James J. Strang, 1844
Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Brigham Young, 1847
Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Church of Jesus Christ, Alpheus Cutler, 1853
Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, 1851-1860
Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Church of Jesus Christ, William Bickerton, 1862
Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of Church of Christ (Temple Lot), Granville Hedrick, 1863
This would be Logos clearly promoting the propagation of the Mormon faith as a legitimate "Christian" faith. To me this would be unacceptable. Could Logos do this? Yes. But because of the nature of their product - namely the Bible - many of its users would be offended and outraged. Has this happened with the way Logos promoted the Catholic faith? Maybe - but the majority of those on this forum have disagreed.
Has this happened with the way Logos promoted the Catholic faith? Maybe - but the majority of those on this forum have disagreed.
Wow...this Mormon temple is crazy.
When was that vote taken?
No vote. But there was a thread a while back that brought this issue up. I gave my opinion and got slammed for it. I was basically standing alone. However, the thread was started by a troll who just wanted to promote hatred instead of starting an honest debate.
I was basically standing alone.
This would be Logos clearly promoting the propagation of the Mormon faith as a legitimate "Christian" faith. To me this would be unacceptable. Could Logos do this? Yes. But because of the nature of their product - namely the Bible - many of its users would be offended and outraged. Has this happened with the way Logos promoted the Catholic faith? Maybe - but the majority of those on this forum have disagreed.There are Mormons who post on these forums who would find it unacceptable that you find their faith unacceptable. There are Christians on these forums that are offended and outraged that Rome is still considered a Christian faith, after all the reformers, and Christians in general have been persecuted and killed because of their attempt to expose the papacy for what it is. Has this happened with the way Logos promoted the Catholic faith? Maybe - but the majority of those on this forum have disagreed. When was that vote taken?
It ws not merely reformers who were persecuted and killed for their faith. Catholics were as well in non-Catholic areas. It must be remembered that those were harsh times. While that does not excuse the persecution, it does explain why it happened. Why should we continue the bitterness today due to what happened in the past?
“Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly; do not claim to be wiser than you are. Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” No, “if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” (Romans 12:16–21, NRSV)
KS4J - I innocently thought I'd throw together a short timeline of the LDS only to find it wouldn't be short - or is my source not trustworthy?: The following list of dissident groups is taken from the book Divergent Paths of Restoration:
Noticed book was published in 1982, Reformed Mormon web site http://www.reformmormonism.org/aboutus.htm has more recent history.
Wonder about suggesting book Divergent Paths of Restoration for Logos consideration ?
If you're interested in architecture http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/has a slide show of LDS temples from around the world - some stunning, some less so
I was basically standing alone.So, then, You are the majority of which you speak?
No. I am not part of that majority.
This is cool. Thank you.
This one is really neat. Its like seeing double. lol
Appears reformed branch has existed for 10 years,
Thank you MJ. I just love it when you lay it out with so much detail. I enjoy reading of all the diversity. One of my favorite topics of Mormonism is polygamy. [:D] Nina pretty much has her mind made up on that one. Even though I bring up all the patriarchs of the Old Testament, she still won't give in on that.
The legal and cultural issues are not limited to Mormon factions. When the United States pulled out of Vietnam the CIA evacuated a large number of Hmong people.They practiced polygamy in their homelands and were forced by the US Immigration to choose which one wife they wanted to remain married to. Imagine breaking up two of your three families because your host country is intolerant of your beliefs. It is difficult to be on the receiving end of persecution.
While that does not excuse the persecution, it does explain why it happened. Why should we continue the bitterness today due to what happened in the past?
Since we can see that the Muslims' animosity can be traced back to Ishmael's disappointment, (when Abraham sent him away) Do we get over our bitterness toward them?
Puzzling question that is not related to this discussion about Mormon Studies Collection for Logos nor related to using Logos Bible Software. Hence question seems appropriate for discussion elsewhere. Internet has many web sites for theological discussions.
You did not seem upset when George suggested we overlook the persecutions inflicted by Rome....
But you are offended when the same proposal is made about Muslims?[:)]
This thread has several reminders about Logos forum guidelines; please focus on using Logos Bible Software, including discussions about resources would like available in Logos for research and study.
Searching my Logos library for persecution finds 79,489 results plus Topics section. Searching for love finds 634,286 results with larger Topics section, which is a bit less than 689,541 results for faith. A search for glory finds 264,904 results, bit more than 249,737 for hope. Search for God finds 4,247,135 results; Christian finds 824,825 results.
Likewise searching my Logos library for Mormon found many results, including a biography in => Perseus Civil War and 19th Century American Collection (340 vols.) that has encounters in a couple chapters.
Personally have bid for http://www.logos.com/product/16021/mormon-studies-collection along with dreaming about a filter for Entire Library that can be turned on and off as desired.
Thanks to MJ's reply about Mormon church history, would like book Divergent Paths of Restoration for Logos (or Vyrso) use.
While that does not excuse the persecution, it does explain why it happened. Why should we continue the bitterness today due to what happened in the past? So, George; Since we can see that the Muslims' animosity can be traced back to Ishmael's disappointment, (when Abraham sent him away) Do we get over our bitterness toward them?
HHHMMMmmm~~~
On 3 Jan 2012, another Logos user replied after one of your posts:
Sam, actually it looks like you silently help the trolls out here when you cite their posting in full. If some Logos admin deletes "Andy's" post, yours will carry the message along. Just my 2c Mick
Sam,
actually it looks like you silently help the trolls out here when you cite their posting in full. If some Logos admin deletes "Andy's" post, yours will carry the message along.
Just my 2c
Mick
Wonder about please repeating edit to remove quoted posts ? Both questions are appropriate for other forums, e.g. => http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/
http://community.logos.com/resized-image.ashx/__size/550x0/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/77/8838.RLDS_5F00_temple_5F00_by_5F00_jadisofeternity.jpg
This is actually the one-and-only temple of the Reorganized LDS Church, now known as the community of Christ.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_of_Christ
In other words, not a Mormon temple.
http://community.logos.com/resized-image.ashx/__size/550x0/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/77/8838.RLDS_5F00_temple_5F00_by_5F00_jadisofeternity.jpg This is actually the one-and-only temple of the Reorganized LDS Church, now known as the community of Christ. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_of_Christ In other words, not a Mormon temple.
I don't follow your logic here. How do you define "Mormon"?
If a person or religious organization practices the theology of Mormonism - could they not be considered Mormon? The wiki you linked cites that the Community of Christ practices Mormonism.
If a person or religious organization practices the theology of Mormonism - could they not be considered Mormon?
Since infant baptism is a Catholic doctrine would all who practice infant baptism be called Catholic? What I think Ben is saying is, there is enough difference between the LDS church based in Utah and the RLDS church based in Missouri
That is why we can't go with a one-label-fits-all, shotgun approach.
"If a person or religious organization practices the theology of Mormonism"
The CoC/RLDS Temple neither practices the liturgy nor the theology. But as you know, that goes beyond the purpose of this board.
If a person or religious organization practices the theology of Mormonism - could they not be considered Mormon? Since infant baptism is a Catholic doctrine would all who practice infant baptism be called Catholic? What I think Ben is saying is, there is enough difference between the LDS church based in Utah and the RLDS church based in Missouri That is why we can't go with a one-label-fits-all, shotgun approach.
http://www.standard.net/stories/2012/01/27/jailed-warren-jeffs-sends-gods-revelations-newspapers
KumBaYa !
Yeah
Reported as abuse.
Blanket insults are no different than bearing false witness.
I am sure not everyone named Willard in the world is a troll.
Yeah Reported as abuse. Blanket insults are no different than bearing false witness. I am sure not everyone named Willard in the world is a troll.
I also don't believe that everyone claiming to be a Willard is a Willard. Willard Scott is the name of a (former?) weatherman who also was the first Ronald McDonald. I think he has donned his clown nose and oversized shoes.
It must be remembered that those were harsh times. While that does not excuse the persecution, it does explain why it happened. Why should we continue the bitterness today due to what happened in the past?
I would remind you of the words of Benjamin Franklin: "If we do not all hang together, we shall most certainly all hang separately." We have an enemy of Jesus Christ which is on the march in the form of Islam. I do not say "radical Islam", but ALL Islam. We see expurgated versions of the Koran / Quran in English (we even have one in Logos). These have been cleaned up so as not to alarm those who speak English. Make no mistake about it, those who follow Islam do not guide themselves by the politically correct English versions. There was recently an article in the National Review Online (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/260288/who-attacked-lara-logan-and-why-andrew-c-mccarthy) in which Andrew McCarthy asks "Who Attacked Lara Logan, and Why?" then answers the question he has posed. It lies in passages such as Surah 4:23-24. In these the offensive material has largely been toned down. They intend to subjugate the Christian world and brutalize any who will not submit to Islam. We have not faced such a danger since the Moors overran Spain and threatened France and also were knocking at the very doors of Vienna. They subjected much of the previously Christian world to Islam including Northern Africa (including Egypt), Asia Minor, and what is today Syria and Iraq. Will Europe and the United States be next? They will if we fight amongst ourselves. I would encourage Logos to do its own translation of the Quran in a very faithful version -- assiduously avoiding softening the harsh parts. This would make clear to all the insidious nature of Islam. Its prophet is a false prophet, a prophet of Satan himself, and a paedophile. Its god is not the God of the bible but Satan himself since God would not countenance that set forth in the Quran. Islam is interested in submission (much like the Obama regime), not in conviction. Remember: "He who is convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
I would remind you of the words of Benjamin Franklin: "If we do not all hang together, we shall most certainly all hang separately." We have an enemy of Jesus Christ which is on the march in the form of Islam. I do not say "radical Islam", but ALL Islam. We see expurgated versions of the Koran / Quran in English (we even have one in Logos). These have been cleaned up so as not to alarm those who speak English. Make no mistake about it, those who follow Islam do not guide themselves by the politically correct English versions. There was recently an article in the National Review Online (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/260288/who-attacked-lara-logan-and-why-andrew-c-mccarthy) in which Andrew McCarthy asks "Who Attacked Lara Logan, and Why?" then answers the question he has posed. It lies in passages such as Surah 4:23-24. In these the offensive material has largely been toned down. They intend to subjugate the Christian world and brutalize any who will not submit to Islam. We have not faced such a danger since the Moors overran Spain and threatened France and also were knocking at the very doors of Vienna. They subjected much of the previously Christian world to Islam including Northern Africa (including Egypt), Asia Minor, and what is today Syria and Iraq. Will Europe and the United States be next? They will if we fight amongst ourselves.
I would encourage Logos to do its own translation of the Quran in a very faithful version -- assiduously avoiding softening the harsh parts. This would make clear to all the insidious nature of Islam. Its prophet is a false prophet, a prophet of Satan himself, and a paedophile. Its god is not the God of the bible but Satan himself since God would not countenance that set forth in the Quran. Islam is interested in submission (much like the Obama regime), not in conviction. Remember: "He who is convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
You are brazen enough to counsel me about bitterness?, When you posted this a few months back?
Yes, since this is something which is incorporated in the very foundational documents of Islam and today held by many Muslims today. While not all Muslims share this position, there is a significant group which does and which threatens not only the foundations of societies historically based on Christianity, but Judaism as well. This is not simply a disagreement with an historical position.
