Mormon Studies Collection
Comments
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Luther was the Father of the Reformation. EDIT: > Luther has been referred to as the Father of the Reformation. Have you studied why The roman church needed Reformation?mitchellisdumb said:Hey, Martin Luther was a Catholic!
I'm using "was" in a very strict sense here...
Reform:
1a : to put or change into an improved form or condition.
b : to amend or improve by change of form or removal of faults or abuses.
2: to put an end to (an evil) by enforcing or introducing a better method or course of action.
3: to induce or cause to abandon evil ways <reform a drunkard>
(Per Webster)
Martin Luther
"We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist." (Aug. 18, 1520) Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 2., pg. 121 by Froom. (In response to a papal bull [official decree]): "I despise and attack it, as impious, false... It is Christ Himself who is condemned therein... I rejoice in having to bear such ills for the best of causes. Already I feel greater liberty in my heart; for at last I know that the pope is antichrist, and that his throne is that of Satan himself." --D'Aubigné, b.6, ch. 9.
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I realize who Luther was, I was just having a bit of fun with words. I stand by my statement that Luther was Catholic. He just didn't stay Catholic.
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I would say a very large percentage of us are catholic along with Luther.
cath•o•lic \ˈkath-lik, ˈka-thə-\ noun 15th century
: a person who belongs to the universal Christian church0 -
I invite you to read it again.William Bingham said:I would say a very large percentage of us are catholic along with Luther.
cath•o•lic \ˈkath-lik, ˈka-thə-\ noun 15th century
: a person who belongs to the universal Christian church
Martin Luther
"We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist." (Aug. 18, 1520) Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 2., pg. 121 by Froom. (In response to a papal bull [official decree]): "I despise and attack it, as impious, false... It is Christ Himself who is condemned therein... I rejoice in having to bear such ills for the best of causes. Already I feel greater liberty in my heart; for at last I know that the pope is antichrist, and that his throne is that of Satan himself." --D'Aubigné, b.6, ch. 9.Luther was not speaking of the "small c" catholics. He specifically wrote of the papacy of the "large C" Roman Catholic organization.
Anyone acquainted with WELS should know this...and should not be muddying the waters with such rhetoric !
Read what true Lutherans have to say about the papacy here:
http://www.wels.net/about-wels/doctrinal-statements/antichrist
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Do not feed the troll!
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Mike Pettit said:
to do so you have to be scrupulously fair but fairness is very different to neutrality.
I think of it a little differently. When I read a novel, I suspend my disbelief - that is I get into the story as if it were real world while knowing I'm reading a book of fiction. I do something similar when reading theological books - I read it as if it were true. I observe places where the logic is bad or has holes in it from the perspective of the author. It i after I put the book down, that I evaluate it in terms of what I believe to be true. That's what I mean by neutrality.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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BriM said:
but I tend to search my whole library and I guess many people do the same. I'm thinking that a checkbox option like full or restricted search, together with the ability to over-ride what resources go in these would satisfy people of theological persuasions.
Now that we have the ability to search "My Content" I doubt I will ever search my whole library again. I suspect there is enough difference in what resources one considers reliable that the current method of the user defining the collection that is "all my library worth searching" themselves is better than Logos trying to define it for us.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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deleted - a fun fact that might be misconstrued as troll food - see
H. H. Pope Shenouda III to guess what I might have been thinking ... always ready to broaden your horizons.[:D]From 1999 http://www.lutheranworld.org/Special_Events/OfficialDocuments/jd97.EN.html re: Lutherans and Catholics.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:
Which translation- that's easy, the same one Jesus, Peter, and Paul used. [;)]
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Martin Luther
"We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist." (Aug. 18, 1520) Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 2., pg. 121 by Froom. (In response to a papal bull [official decree]): "I despise and attack it, as impious, false... It is Christ Himself who is condemned therein... I rejoice in having to bear such ills for the best of causes. Already I feel greater liberty in my heart; for at last I know that the pope is antichrist, and that his throne is that of Satan himself." --D'Aubigné, b.6, ch. 9.
Thanks for bringing that to my attention. You are aware, I assume, that Luther posted the Ninety-Five Theses at the Castle Church in Wittenberg, Germany? Clearly, he was petitioning the Roman Catholic Organization. Do you believe he was addressing African popes?[:O]MJ. Smith said:You are aware, I assume, that there are others than the bishop of Rome that use the title Pope? hint: check out the North African churches.
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Willard
I am quite clear on the position of the WELS toward the Papacy. I wholeheartedly agree with it. My posting is not meant to muddy the waters. There is a distinct difference between catholic and Catholic. Capital C acts as a personal name thus it is capitalized. As you might notice the "first" definition to catholic is the universal Christian church.
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Before your post, there had been no mention of the universal Church. The conversation was centered around the papacy, which is tied to the Roman Catholic Organization, ... not the universal "catholic" Church. So, Whether it was your intent, or not, You did muddy the water. It seems strange that someone who claims to adhere to the WELS position would attempt to divert attention away from the deception being discussed.William Bingham said:Willard
I am quite clear on the position of the WELS toward the Papacy. I wholeheartedly agree with it. My posting is not meant to muddy the waters. There is a distinct difference between catholic and Catholic. Capital C acts as a personal name thus it is capitalized. As you might notice the "first" definition to catholic is the universal Christian church.
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Willard Scott said:
Luther was the Father of the Reformation. Have you studied why The roman church needed Reformation?
Need I remind you of the "Morningstar of the Reformation", John Wycliff? Or what about Jan Hus who read much of his writing and paid with his life? This was all before Luther. Of course, there was also Savonarola, but if my memory is correct, he was a bit of a kook.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!
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Point taken. Edited accordingly. It was not my intention to minimize the contribution of any other reformer. My only defense is that Luther is the one we were discussing. Now that Wycliff and Huss are included in the discussion, I might point out that they, also, saw the papacy as Antichrist. Thanks for pointing out my oversight.George Somsel said:Willard Scott said:Luther was the Father of the Reformation. Have you studied why The roman church needed Reformation?
Need I remind you of the "Morningstar of the Reformation", John Wycliff? Or what about Jan Hus who read much of his writing and paid with his life? This was all before Luther. Of course, there was also Savonarola, but if my memory is correct, he was a bit of a kook.
http://www.amazon.com/Martin-Luther-Father-Reformation-Signature/dp/0756515939
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Dennis Parish said:
Do not feed the troll!
i'd say he's pretty much learned to do it himself . . . [:O]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Willard Scott said:
My only defense is that Luther is the one we were discussing.
May I remind you that this thread is on Mormon resources - not Luther, not the papacy etc.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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If people insist on harping on Reformed doctrine in a thread on Mormons, can we at least limit it to the Latter Day Saints Reformed Church? The Mormon Studies Collection is missing any coverage on that branch. I would surely welcome a few books explaining the differences.
What
Wycliff, Luther and the Popes have to do with this thread escapes me! [^o)]VV TROLL ALERT! VV
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Yes, You may.[:D]MJ. Smith said:May I remind you that this thread is on Mormon resources - not Luther, not the papacy etc.
MJ. Smith said:You are aware, I assume, that there are others than the bishop of Rome that use the title Pope? hint: check out the North African churches.
MJ. Smith said:From 1999 http://www.lutheranworld.org/Special_Events/OfficialDocuments/jd97.EN.html re: Lutherans and Catholics.
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Willard Scott said:
The same with the Catholic Collection?Joshua G said:I think it is clear that Logos intends these resources to be used for apologetic reasons - much like with the Islamic collection. I would have an issue with Logos marketing and labeling the Book of Mormon as a "Christian" resource. However, they have not - so I am fine with this collection.
No. The Catholic collection is not specifically intended for apologetic reasons, however; I am sure that many Logos users will pick it up for such reasons. It is clear that Logos considers the Roman Catholic faith a legitimate and valid "Christian" faith and the Mormon faith not. They have created and marketed a Roman Catholic base package along with a video series that quote "provides you with important insights and tips concerning how to use Logos within a Catholic Scripture study methodology".
Now if Logos created a Mormon base package along with a video series that helped Mormons use Logos within a Mormon Scripture study methodology - that would be a different story. This would be Logos clearly promoting the propagation of the Mormon faith as a legitimate "Christian" faith. To me this would be unacceptable. Could Logos do this? Yes. But because of the nature of their product - namely the Bible - many of its users would be offended and outraged. Has this happened with the way Logos promoted the Catholic faith? Maybe - but the majority of those on this forum have disagreed.
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Looking at => http://www.logos.com/product/16021/mormon-studies-collection noticed Blood Atonement and the Origin of Plural Marriage: A Discussion has two authors, including: "Richard C. Evans was a member of the First Presidency of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He was later excommunicated from the Mormon Church for denying that God and Christ visited Joseph Smith."
Likewise noticed Mormon Studies Collection (45 vols.) has three volumes about systematic theology of Mormon doctrine.
Super Tramp said:... can we at least limit it to the Latter Day Saints Reformed Church? The Mormon Studies Collection is missing any coverage on that branch. I would surely welcome a few books explaining the differences.
Appears reformed branch has existed for 10 years, which is different than fundamentalist branch. Also
Searching Logos.com and Vryso.com for Mormon did not find any reformed nor reorganized Mormon resources; did find something to add to my wish list.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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KS4J - I innocently thought I'd throw together a short timeline of the LDS only to find it wouldn't be short - or is my source not trustworthy?:
The following list of dissident groups is taken from the book Divergent Paths of Restoration:
FOUNDED BETWEEN 1830 AND 1844
- Pure Church of Christ, Wycam Clark, 1831
- The Independent Church, Hoton, 1832
- Church of Christ, Ezra Booth, 1836
- Church of Christ, Warren Parrish, 1837
- The Church of Jesus Christ, the Bride, The Lamb's Wife, George M. Hinkle, 1840
- Church of Christ, Hyrum Page, 1842
- Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, F. Gladden Bishop
- True Church of Jessu Christ of Latter Day Saints, Law, Foster, Higbee, 1844
- Church of Christ, William Chubby
NON-EXTANT MOVEMENTS FOUNDED 1844-1860
- Church of Christ / Church of Jesus Christ of the Children of Zion, Sidney Rigdon, 1844
- Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, James Emmett, 1844
- Church of Christ, S. B. Stoddard, Leonard Rich, James Bump, 1845
- Indian Mormon, 1846
- Church of Christ, William McLellin, David Whitmer, 1847
- Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, William Smith, 1847
- Congregation of Jehovah's Presbytery of Zion, Charles B. Thompson, 1848
- Church of Christ, James C. Brewster, 1848
- Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Lyman Wight, 1849
- The Bride, The Lamb's Wife or Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Jacob Syfritt, 1850
- Church of Christ, Hazen Aldrich, 1851
EXTANT MOVEMENTS
Splinter Groups and Sub-movements
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,
James J. Strang, 1844- Church of Christ, Aaron Smith, 1846
- Church of the Messiah, George J. Adams, 1861
- Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite)
- Holy Church of Jesus Christ, Alexandre R. Caffiaux
- House of Ephraim and House of Manasseh of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Jerry Sheppard
- The True Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, David L. Roberts
- Marriage Counseling Group
- Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, John J. Hajicek
- Strangite Believers in Pennsylvania
Splinter Groups and Sub-movements
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,
Brigham Young, 1847- Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or Church of the First Born, Joseph Morris, 1861
- The Prophet Cainan or Church of Jesus Christ of the Saints of the Most High God, George Williams, 1862
- Morrisite Group, John Livingston, 1864
- Church of Zion, William S. Godbe, 1868
- Church of the First Born, George S. Dove, 1874
- Priesthood Groups (Fundamentalists), 1890
- United Order of Equality, Ephraim Peterson, 1909
- The Church of Jesus Christ of Israel, J. H. Sherwood
- Order of Aaron, Maurice L. Glendenning
- Church of Freedom of Latter Day Saints, 1950s
- Zion's Order of the Sons of Levi, Marl V. Kilgore, 1951
- The Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times, Joel F. LeBaron
- The Church of the Firstborn, Ross W. LeBaron, 1955
- Perfected Church of Jesus Christ
of Immaculate Latter Day Saints, William C. Conway,
1958 - Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, John Forsgren, 1960
- Church of Jesus Christ, William Goldman, 1960
- LDS Scripture Researchers/Believe God Society, Sherman Russell Lloyd, 1965
- The Church of the Body and of the Spirit of Jessu Christ, Max Powers, 1965
- United Order of the Saints of Guadeloupe, Michel Gamiette, 1966
- United Order of the Family of Christ, David E. Desmond, 1966
- Split from Zion's Order of the Sons of Levi, Eldon Taylor, 1969
- Homosexual Church of Jesus Christ, Denver, Colorado, 1972
- Latter Day Saints Church, N.S. Park, 1972
- The Church of the Lamb of God, Ervil M. LeBaron, 1972
- The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Mikhail Krupenia, 1972
- The New Jerusalem Group, Kathryn Carter, 1972
- The Watchmen on the Towers of Latter Day Israel, Miltenberg, Braun, 1973
- Church of Jesus Christ in Solemn Assembly, Alexnader Joseph, 1974
- Evangelical Church of Christ,
Church of the New Covenant in Christ, John W.
Bryant, 1974 - Split form Zion's Order of the Sons of Levi, Barton Kilgore, 1975
- Affirmation, 1975
- Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Robert Simons, 1975
- Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times, Bruce Wakeham, 1975
- Aaronic Order Break-off, 1977
- Christ's Church, Inc., Gerald Peterson, 1978
- Church of Jesus Christ, Art Bulla, 1978
- The Restorers or School of the Prophets, Robert C. Crossfield, 1979
- Zion's First International Church, LeeAnn Walker, 1980
- The Free Will Mormon Church, Franklin Lee Coleman, 1980
- Church of Jesus Christ, Jorge Mora, 1981
- Sons Ahman Israel, Davied Israel, 1981
- Samoan LDS Church, New Zealand, 1981
- The Millennial Church of Jesus Christ, Leo P. Evoniuk, 1981
- Peyote Way Church of God, Immanuel P. Trujillo, 1981
- The Chruch of Jesus Christ of the Saints in Zion, Ken Asay, 1984
- Break from the Church of Jesus Christ in Solemn Assembly, 1984
- Church of Jesus Christ of All
Latter-day Saints or Restoration Church of Jesus
Christ, Antonio A. Feliz, 1985 - Church of Christ of Latter-day Saints, Robert P. Madison, 1985
- Church of Christ the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times, Siegfried J. Widmar, 1985
- Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Fundamentalists, Wight Family, 1985
- Mormon Fundamentalists, England, Alan and Marian Munn, 1986
- Churchof Jesus Christ Omnipotent, 1987
- Community of Zion, Central Utah Division
- Church of the First Born, General Assembly
Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Church of Jesus Christ, Alpheus Cutler, 1853
- Church of Jesus Christ, Clyde Fletcher, 1953
- The Restored Church of Jesus Christ, Eugene O. Walton, 1979
Splinter Groups and Sub-movements
of The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
Day Saints, 1851-1860- Church of the Christian Brotherhood, Richard C. Evans, 1917
- The Church of Christ, the Order of Zion, John Zahnd, 1918
- The Church of Jesus Christ, Thomas W. Williams, 1925
- Church of Jesus Christ Restored, Stanley M. King, 1970
- New Jerusalem Church of Jesus Christ, Barney Fuller, 1975
- Church of Christ Restored, Paul Fishel, 1976
- True Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Forrest Toney, 1980
- Church of the Restoration or Churches of Christ in Zion, Robert Chambers, 1981
- Lamanite Ministries for Christ or New Covenant Ministries for Christ, 1984
- Restoration Branches Movement, 1984
- Church of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, A. Lee Abramson, 1985
- Church of Jesus Christ, Zion's Branch, John Cato, 1986
- Church of Christ, David Clark, 1986
- Independent Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Christopher C. Warren, 1986
- Native Indian Church
Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Church of Jesus Christ, William Bickerton, 1862
- Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ, Allen Wright, 1907
- Primitive Church of Jesus Christ, James Caldwell, 1914
Splinter Groups and Sub-movements
of Church of Christ (Temple Lot), Granville Hedrick,
1863- Church of Christ, Independent, Informal, Frank F. Wipper, 1927
- The Church of Christ, Otto Fetting, 1929
- Church of Christ, P.A. Ely, 1929
- Church of Christ, C.W. Humphrey, 1929
- Church of Christ, Samuel Wood, E.J. Trapp, 1930
- Church of Christ (Restored), A.C. DeWolf, 1936
- Church of Christ, E. E. Long, Thomas Nerren, 1936
- Church of Christ, Paul Hilgendorf, 1942
- The Church of Christ With the Elijah Message, W. A. D. Draves, 1943
- Church of Christ, Pauline Hancock, 1946
- Antarctica Development Interests
or the New American's Mount Zion, John Leabo,
1955 - Church of Christ at Zion's Retreat, Gerald Hall, 1973
- The Church of Israel, Dan Gayman, 1973
- Break from the Church of Christ (Hancock), Davison, Michigan, 1973
- The Church of Christ, Restored Gospel 1929, 1985
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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There are Mormons who post on these forums who would find it unacceptable that you find their faith unacceptable. There are Christians on these forums that are offended and outraged that Rome is still considered a Christian faith, after all the reformers, and Christians in general have been persecuted and killed because of their attempt to expose the papacy for what it is.Joshua G said:This would be Logos clearly promoting the propagation of the Mormon faith as a legitimate "Christian" faith. To me this would be unacceptable. Could Logos do this? Yes. But because of the nature of their product - namely the Bible - many of its users would be offended and outraged. Has this happened with the way Logos promoted the Catholic faith? Maybe - but the majority of those on this forum have disagreed.
When was that vote taken?Joshua G said:Has this happened with the way Logos promoted the Catholic faith? Maybe - but the majority of those on this forum have disagreed.
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Wow...this Mormon temple is crazy.
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Willard Scott said:
When was that vote taken?
No vote. But there was a thread a while back that brought this issue up. I gave my opinion and got slammed for it. I was basically standing alone. However, the thread was started by a troll who just wanted to promote hatred instead of starting an honest debate.
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So, then, You are the majority of which you speak?Joshua G said:I was basically standing alone.
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Willard Scott said:
There are Mormons who post on these forums who would find it unacceptable that you find their faith unacceptable. There are Christians on these forums that are offended and outraged that Rome is still considered a Christian faith, after all the reformers, and Christians in general have been persecuted and killed because of their attempt to expose the papacy for what it is.Joshua G said:This would be Logos clearly promoting the propagation of the Mormon faith as a legitimate "Christian" faith. To me this would be unacceptable. Could Logos do this? Yes. But because of the nature of their product - namely the Bible - many of its users would be offended and outraged. Has this happened with the way Logos promoted the Catholic faith? Maybe - but the majority of those on this forum have disagreed.
When was that vote taken?Joshua G said:Has this happened with the way Logos promoted the Catholic faith? Maybe - but the majority of those on this forum have disagreed.
It ws not merely reformers who were persecuted and killed for their faith. Catholics were as well in non-Catholic areas. It must be remembered that those were harsh times. While that does not excuse the persecution, it does explain why it happened. Why should we continue the bitterness today due to what happened in the past?
“Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly; do not claim to be wiser than you are. Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” No, “if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” (Romans 12:16–21, NRSV)
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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MJ. Smith said:
KS4J - I innocently thought I'd throw together a short timeline of the LDS only to find it wouldn't be short - or is my source not trustworthy?:
The following list of dissident groups is taken from the book Divergent Paths of Restoration:
Noticed book was published in 1982, Reformed Mormon web site http://www.reformmormonism.org/aboutus.htm has more recent history.
Wonder about suggesting book Divergent Paths of Restoration for Logos consideration ?
Keep Smiling [:)]
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If you're interested in architecture http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/has a slide show of LDS temples from around the world - some stunning, some less so
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
If you're interested in architecture http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/has a slide show of LDS temples from around the world - some stunning, some less so
This is cool. Thank you.
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This one is really neat. Its like seeing double. lol
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Wow. If that is correct, they have made great progress in only one decade.Appears reformed branch has existed for 10 years,
MJ. Smith said:KS4J - I innocently thought I'd throw together a short timeline of the LDS only to find it wouldn't be short - or is my source not trustworthy?: The following list of dissident groups is taken from the book Divergent Paths of Restoration:
Thank you MJ. I just love it when you lay it out with so much detail. I enjoy reading of all the diversity. One of my favorite topics of Mormonism is polygamy. [:D] Nina pretty much has her mind made up on that one. Even though I bring up all the patriarchs of the Old Testament, she still won't give in on that.
The legal and cultural issues are not limited to Mormon factions. When the United States pulled out of Vietnam the CIA evacuated a large number of Hmong people.They practiced polygamy in their homelands and were forced by the US Immigration to choose which one wife they wanted to remain married to. Imagine breaking up two of your three families because your host country is intolerant of your beliefs. It is difficult to be on the receiving end of persecution.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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So, George;George Somsel said:While that does not excuse the persecution, it does explain why it happened. Why should we continue the bitterness today due to what happened in the past?
Since we can see that the Muslims' animosity can be traced back to Ishmael's disappointment, (when Abraham sent him away) Do we get over our bitterness toward them?
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Willard Scott said:
Since we can see that the Muslims' animosity can be traced back to Ishmael's disappointment, (when Abraham sent him away) Do we get over our bitterness toward them?
Puzzling question that is not related to this discussion about Mormon Studies Collection for Logos nor related to using Logos Bible Software. Hence question seems appropriate for discussion elsewhere. Internet has many web sites for theological discussions.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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You did not seem upset when George suggested we overlook the persecutions inflicted by Rome....
But you are offended when the same proposal is made about Muslims?[:)]
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This thread has several reminders about Logos forum guidelines; please focus on using Logos Bible Software, including discussions about resources would like available in Logos for research and study.
Searching my Logos library for persecution finds 79,489 results plus Topics section. Searching for love finds 634,286 results with larger Topics section, which is a bit less than 689,541 results for faith. A search for glory finds 264,904 results, bit more than 249,737 for hope. Search for God finds 4,247,135 results; Christian finds 824,825 results.
Likewise searching my Logos library for Mormon found many results, including a biography in => Perseus Civil War and 19th Century American Collection (340 vols.) that has encounters in a couple chapters.
Personally have bid for http://www.logos.com/product/16021/mormon-studies-collection along with dreaming about a filter for Entire Library that can be turned on and off as desired.
Thanks to MJ's reply about Mormon church history, would like book Divergent Paths of Restoration for Logos (or Vyrso) use.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]Willard Scott said:
So, George;George Somsel said:While that does not excuse the persecution, it does explain why it happened. Why should we continue the bitterness today due to what happened in the past?
Since we can see that the Muslims' animosity can be traced back to Ishmael's disappointment, (when Abraham sent him away) Do we get over our bitterness toward them?
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Silent Sam said:
HHHMMMmmm~~~ On 3 Jan 2012, another Logos user replied after one of your posts:
NewbieMick said:Sam,
actually it looks like you silently
help the trolls out here when you cite their posting in full. If some Logos admin deletes "Andy's" post, yours will carry the message along.Just my 2c
Mick
Wonder about please repeating edit to remove quoted posts ? Both questions are appropriate for other forums, e.g. => http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/
Keep Smiling [:)]
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This is actually the one-and-only temple of the Reorganized LDS Church, now known as the community of Christ.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_of_Christ
In other words, not a Mormon temple.
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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Ben said:
This is actually the one-and-only temple of the Reorganized LDS Church, now known as the community of Christ.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_of_Christ
In other words, not a Mormon temple.
I don't follow your logic here. How do you define "Mormon"?
If a person or religious organization practices the theology of Mormonism - could they not be considered Mormon? The wiki you linked cites that the Community of Christ practices Mormonism.
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Joshua G said:
If a person or religious organization practices the theology of Mormonism - could they not be considered Mormon?
Since infant baptism is a Catholic doctrine would all who practice infant baptism be called Catholic? What I think Ben is saying is, there is enough difference between the LDS church based in Utah and the RLDS church based in Missouri
That is why we can't go with a one-label-fits-all, shotgun approach.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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"If a person or religious organization practices the theology of Mormonism"
The CoC/RLDS Temple neither practices the liturgy nor the theology. But as you know, that goes beyond the purpose of this board.
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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Yeah. We need to adapt the strategy of the other organization that denies the Divinity of Christ, and upholds pedophilia. It's all in how you spell it. You have your "Large M Mormons" and your "small m mormons"Super Tramp said:Joshua G said:If a person or religious organization practices the theology of Mormonism - could they not be considered Mormon?
Since infant baptism is a Catholic doctrine would all who practice infant baptism be called Catholic? What I think Ben is saying is, there is enough difference between the LDS church based in Utah and the RLDS church based in Missouri
That is why we can't go with a one-label-fits-all, shotgun approach.
http://www.standard.net/stories/2012/01/27/jailed-warren-jeffs-sends-gods-revelations-newspapers
KumBaYa !
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Willard Scott said:
Yeah
Reported as abuse.
Blanket insults are no different than bearing false witness.
I am sure not everyone named Willard in the world is a troll.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I'm Tellin' on you ![:P]Super Tramp said:Willard Scott said:Yeah
Reported as abuse.
Blanket insults are no different than bearing false witness.
I am sure not everyone named Willard in the world is a troll.
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Super Tramp said:
I am sure not everyone named Willard in the world is a troll.
I also don't believe that everyone claiming to be a Willard is a Willard. Willard Scott is the name of a (former?) weatherman who also was the first Ronald McDonald. I think he has donned his clown nose and oversized shoes.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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You are brazen enough to counsel me about bitterness?, When you posted this a few months back?George Somsel said:It must be remembered that those were harsh times. While that does not excuse the persecution, it does explain why it happened. Why should we continue the bitterness today due to what happened in the past?
I don't recall Matthew reporting that rant as "Abuse."George Somsel said:I would remind you of the words of Benjamin Franklin: "If we do not all hang together, we shall most certainly all hang separately." We have an enemy of Jesus Christ which is on the march in the form of Islam. I do not say "radical Islam", but ALL Islam. We see expurgated versions of the Koran / Quran in English (we even have one in Logos). These have been cleaned up so as not to alarm those who speak English. Make no mistake about it, those who follow Islam do not guide themselves by the politically correct English versions. There was recently an article in the National Review Online (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/260288/who-attacked-lara-logan-and-why-andrew-c-mccarthy) in which Andrew McCarthy asks "Who Attacked Lara Logan, and Why?" then answers the question he has posed. It lies in passages such as Surah 4:23-24. In these the offensive material has largely been toned down. They intend to subjugate the Christian world and brutalize any who will not submit to Islam. We have not faced such a danger since the Moors overran Spain and threatened France and also were knocking at the very doors of Vienna. They subjected much of the previously Christian world to Islam including Northern Africa (including Egypt), Asia Minor, and what is today Syria and Iraq. Will Europe and the United States be next? They will if we fight amongst ourselves.
I would encourage Logos to do its own translation of the Quran in a very faithful version -- assiduously avoiding softening the harsh parts. This would make clear to all the insidious nature of Islam. Its prophet is a false prophet, a prophet of Satan himself, and a paedophile. Its god is not the God of the bible but Satan himself since God would not countenance that set forth in the Quran. Islam is interested in submission (much like the Obama regime), not in conviction. Remember: "He who is convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
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Willard Scott said:
You are brazen enough to counsel me about bitterness?, When you posted this a few months back?
Yes, since this is something which is incorporated in the very foundational documents of Islam and today held by many Muslims today. While not all Muslims share this position, there is a significant group which does and which threatens not only the foundations of societies historically based on Christianity, but Judaism as well. This is not simply a disagreement with an historical position.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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said:
