Windows 8 & Logos- Logo's Team thoughts?

The ipad doesnt run OSX apps, why should anyone expect Micro$ofts new smartpad os to run win32 apps, its unrealistic IMO.

There will be a seperate (64bit) PC operating system as well (as I read it), and the tablet PC's will run the PC Software.. as for legacy stuff, I imagine there will be emulators like "Virtual Box" or "Vmware" around for many years to come.. 

and smartpad users will run metro...

Convertible netbooks and laptops running x86 CPUs will run Win 8 and offer support for both Metro and traditional Windows apps. I'm using Logos 4 on a Tablet PC and thoroughly enjoying the experience. Its nice to be handwriting on it and interacting with the program by pointing and dragging with the stylus. I'm getting better than 99% accuracy.

DominicM said:

The ipad doesnt run OSX apps, why should anyone expect Micro$ofts new smartpad os to run win32 apps, its unrealistic IMO.

There will be a seperate (64bit) PC operating system as well (as I read it), and the tablet PC's will run the PC Software.. as for legacy stuff, I imagine there will be emulators like "Virtual Box" or "Vmware" around for many years to come.. 

and smartpad users will run metro...

Until MS made this clear I expected it. The primary desire of Windows users for a win tablet is the ability to run windows apps. We don't need another iPad wannabe. MS is making a big mistake in this point and it will make the win8 tablet a footnote in computer history.

[Quote]:  "We don't need another iPad wannabe."

I hear you ; but I worked in the market research industry for many years and I can tell you that its surprising how many people will purchase something for a different reason than yourself.

The bulk of computer users today have grown up with what we have and the proficient ones take for granted the overhead we all have with the current paradigm.

But there are many others out there; probably more than the current user base; that want a computer experience that is more like an white ware appliance; no need for manuals, looking for drivers, constant upgrades.  They just want to drive a car with no idea what is under the bonnet. 

If Windows evolves in that direction it's a good thing.  Less effort devoted to maintaining the system and more resource can be applied by users to the tasks that they really want to get on with... like bible study!    ;-)

I'm sure the more tech savvy user will still find a way to tinker, so all can be happy.

Tony Kan said:

I don't see why Logos can't be both.  I use it as Bible 2.0 for my daily devotionals and I use it for our home bible study group to dig deeper.  I like that its the same user interface for both.  It means a lower learning curve for me. 

Because the same user interface won't work on a portable device and a desktop where you can have four or five windows, tabs, and etc. --it's a simple real estate problem. This is precisely the problem MS is having with Windows 8; there's no clear way to make something as complex as Excel work on a small touch device.

Right now Logos has two products, one that's more "general reading," and "light research," and the other of which is a full blown research tool. The question becomes --at some point in the future, when Logos is resource constrained, which do we, the users, care more about?

Tony Kan said:

I'd like to see Logos become so easy to use that my elderly Uncle (who attended seminary when he was young, 60 years ago) or my soon-to-be 8 year old son wouldn't think twice to pick up Logos and do some serious study. 

I understand what you want to do, but, in reality, there are only three choices here:

1. The software can do simple stuff for users who have the skill set required to do those simple things, but has the ability to turn on more complex tools as the user learns.

2. The software can do complex stuff for users --far beyond their skill set-- but this means the coder is doing the "thinking" for the person, and spitting out the answers the coder thinks the user wants. Think about how Google works, or Facebook. They determine what they think you want to see, and cut out the results they don't think you want to see (or they don't want you to see). Is this what you think Logos should be doing?

3. The software is like a tool box from the start, with lots of tools all over the place, but in order to build a play set or a house, you have to know what every tool actually does, how to use it, what the right materials are, etc.

The folks who are pushing cloud say #2 is the answer --you tell the iPad you want to "design" a bridge, and it does all the "hard work" for you. Of course, the iPad isn't doing the "hard work," a coder someplace did the hard work, and programmed it into the software on some server the iPad is accessing. Hence you're always building the bridge the coder wants and likes, not the one you want to build, or the one you think is right.

In terms of sermons and study, sure you can write software that builds sermons for you, so even an 8 year old could go write a sermon. But what you're doing is letting the coders write all the sermons in the world.

#1 is the only realistic solution, but mobile device interfaces just flat don't have the real estate needed to support the user interface, and the network can't really (ever) support complex user interfaces and data transmission rates required to make #1 work (and here you'll just have to trust me --I'm working on a lot of networks where they're trying to go to virtual desktop --the first thing we have to do is quadruple the bandwidth in their network just to have a hope of making it work).

So we wind up with #2 by default. And while the world cries "that's wonderful!," I just cry for all those people who are turning their creativity and brain cells over to a programmer someplace. They might be nice coders, and they might even believe the same things I believe --it doesn't really matter.

If your 8 year old really wants to study the Scriptures, he's going to eventually have to learn how to use the tool box. Anything that tells him he doesn't have to learn real tools to really study the Scriptures --that he doesn't have to do the hard work of actually reading, comprehending, and assimilating the information because the computer is doing all that for him-- is just shunting his growth down the road someplace.

Again, read The Shallows. The author has a bad worldview so the solutions he presents won't work, but his analysis of the problem is absolutely dead on.

Russ

Tony Kan said:

[Quote]:  "We don't need another iPad wannabe."

I hear you ; but I worked in the market research industry for many years and I can tell you that its surprising how many people will purchase something for a different reason than yourself.

I'm not saying everyone wants what I want. I'm saying I doubt very many want what MS is making. There is the iPad, the Kindle Fire, and a bunch of Android Tablets. They are all making the appliance computer. MS charges for their OS so I doubt many hardware manufacturers will choose it over Android since it will cost more to make. They won't be able to compete with Apple who has found a way to produce a great product cheaper than anyone else can produce. Amazon has a similar product, but they admit they lose money on the device, but they can afford it because it plugs people into buying their content and they have a net gain. MS can't do that because they don't sell what Amazon sells.

What MS needed to produce to distinguish themselves was a tablet OS that could run the Logos Bible Software apps fo the world. They didn't do that so they will fail. The laptop/desktop version of Windows 8 makes no sense. I left MS because of decision like this. They are clueless and just don't get what modern consumers want and with windows 8 they are now going to alienate their business buyers, their bread and butter. Thanks to money on hand and inertia they will coast forward for a decade or more but every passing year they fail to adapt will be a year they come close to becoming and a computing afterthought like IBM now is.

My fear is that Apple is doing the same with Mt. Lion but at least they have iOS to keep them going for years to come.

Kevin A. Purcell said:

What MS needed to produce to distinguish themselves was a tablet OS that could run the Logos Bible Software apps fo the world.

The person who can figure out how to make a tablet work like a PC --the same level of productivity as I can get on a 28in monitor with a pad and keyboard-- will make a mint. The entire idea of cloud seems, to me, to be that you can solve the problem by making the small screen just a window into the larger screen. This doesn't solve the small screen model, though --it just makes you scroll around a lot. The other solution being offered is the app model, the "small application." The problem here is that it just removes options from the user sphere to make the interface fit on the screen available. Another option is to make text really really small so a lot more fits on the screen --but this doesn't work for older folks. :-) Another option is to do as much visually, but it turns out that a picture really doesn't replace a thousand words, after all...

MS is attacking the problem directly --which I think it is a good thing overall-- but they don't have any more of a clue about how to solve it than anyone else. I don't know that there even is a solution, particularly in the space of how applications interact. The genius of quasi-open software models is that one piece of software doesn't have to do everything --but the small screen model goes contrary to this idea. I'm actually afraid this actually fragments out thinking and lives.

:-)

Russ

I have been for the last 12 years a Linux user (gentoo),  Three months ago I switched back to windows.  I purchased a Samsung Series 7 slate. Two months ago I switched from the Bible Soft program to Logos. Both moves have been excellent. I have played the game of trying to get all the apps I use to work well on all my devices (I have used Vmware since 2004). Android made a lot of sense to me with my Linux background but being able to do everything I wanted on all my devices was not coming easy. When I stopped and thought about the apps that were important to me mainly MS Office and my bible study resources, Windows made the most sense. For the first time every thing works. I switched to Logos because it looked like you guys were moving forward on all fronts. That said this Samsung Slate is awesome, It runs the Logos software very nicely. Logos however has some problems with the touchscreen not scrolling properly because of its design. I have been ok with the short comings thinking you guys will be addressing the Windows 8 stuff as it comes.  I hope I have not made a mistake in thinking you would program with windows touchscreens in mind. The new windows phones are getting great reviews and I think there will be a number of people that will be looking to unify and simplify the blending of devices. The windows OS still has the largest market share for the home / work computer. I will close by saying...  to say these things about windows goes against everything I have said for years but this windows Slate is awesome. It combined with Logos is becoming an invaluable tool to me and my ministry. Thanks ...

Bob Pritchett said:

Otherwise we risk being like the MS-DOS Bible software company executive who passed up a chance to acquire Logos v1.0 in 1991 because he had enough experience (from GEM, TopView, GeOS, etc.) to know that graphical windowing interfaces were a UI fad that wouldn't make it, making it unnecessary for him to invest in building or buying a Windows Bible software product.

Yeah that scenario must have been played out thousands of times all around the world in the early 90s.  In my case, I saw it in an international trade application that went the way of the dodo because the principal couldn't see that the future lay with graphical UIs.

Bob Pritchett said:

Russ White said:

I think they believe, right now, that they can do both on the same software.

Yes, we do believe that. It's not the exact same software, but rather a toolbox of components, data sources, and flexible constructs that we can deploy on multiple platforms and customize for different users and user interface paradigms. Maybe this is too ambitious, but we think it can be done, and that we're already well on the road: we use the same ebook files, the same display engine, and other shared pieces to deliver to both the desktop and the iPhone.

I prefer that its on the same software.  I don't like swimming at the deep end all the time, and I like the idea that I can have a casual dip in the same pool.

Bob Pritchett said:

So will you see Logos giving a lot of attention to consumers and casual Bible students / readers? Yes. Because they outnumber you 10 (or 100?) to 1.

Whether others like it or not, its the practical reality.  I think you're on the right track.

Bob Pritchett said:

Is that to the detriment of our service to you, the loyal power user? It may feel that way, because you see so much of our attention going to the consumers. But we also have more resources to give to our core power user market, and there are many more people in this market than there used to be. We have 26 times as many developers as when we built Logos 1.0. We have 8 times as many developers as when we built Libronix. If we give only 10% of our people and resources to developing desktop tools for serious study, we'll be giving more people and resources to desktop software than we ever have in our 20 year history.

These kinds of stats makes me think that Logos has long legs that can stay the course.  It means that I can invest in Logos' resources with confidence.

Bob Pritchett said:

Russ, I love hearing your perspective on this. I hope you won't mind my engaging this particular debate more deeply, because I think it's really interesting and useful. (If this is too long, the Logos-specific answers are at the bottom!)

I love it when Bob posts long posts like this.  He can't help but let future directions out of the bag when he does. :-)

Bob Pritchett said:

I head people saying in 1998 that nothing would ever substitute for the paper book. 'The feel, the easy interface, the smell, the weight in my hand, etc. etc. etc. These eBooks are a fad.' And in 1998 all those people were right.

I have heard the same stuff recently, around the Kindle's arrival. And this time, those people are wrong. And the funny thing is, some of the people who believe it most strongly (and wrongly) now are the people who just a decade ago were right about the exact same thing. And they didn't change; the world did.

A lot of ideas are round for a long time before some key peice comes into place falls into place to make them really practical.  Often, it's not obvious in advance what that key peice is.  While the videophiles and video engineers were debating about how much better Beta was than VHS, VHS came out with the key feature: the ability to record 120 minutes, which for the every day user trumped the whole video quality debate.  Shoot, I usually used VHS in EP mode to get 6 hours.

Going back even earlier, if you had asked horse-and-buggy users what they would like in a new transportation vehicle, I doubt any of them would have said a gasoline engine.  There were powered vehicles that failed before Ford started buiding them on an assemly line.

It's easy to laugh at the people who get it wrong, but that's because we have 20/20 hindsight.  It seldom is obvious from the ground where some singular adjustment of the the paradigm will push a concept over the tipping point from a failure to a success.

Bob Pritchett said:

Yes, cloud computing is just client-server come back around. It's exactly the same thing, with only minor differences. Like the fact that client-server technologies involved heavy, bulky client terminals physically tethered by a network cable or a land-line phone line. And today's "cloud" uses ubiquitous wireless signals that talk to client devices that weigh 6 ounces, keep a charge for 24 hours, and are presently carried in the pocket or purse of nearly everyone over the age of 13 in the developed world.

Other than that, client-server and cloud are exactly the same.

And ubiquitous wireless access may be the idea that pushes the cloud computing paradigm over the tipping point.  Though I could imagine future technology that could push it back the otherway.  Imagine if you could have a computer 1000x faster with 1000x more storage that could fit in your contact lens and project a high resolution heads-up display directly on your retina.  Local computing (and the increased security from hacking that accompanies it) might make sense again.

Bob Pritchett said:

Russ, the funny thing is that my instincts are just like yours. I've been deeply immersed in the computer industry for almost 30 years, and I too have enough experience to know that a lot of what gets the kids excited these days is a bad idea we've already tried. Which is why it's so important to keep an open mind and to keep re-evaluating the bigger context for fundamental changes that make bad ideas good at last. Otherwise we risk being like the MS-DOS Bible software company executive who passed up a chance to acquire Logos v1.0 in 1991 because he had enough experience (from GEM, TopView, GeOS, etc.) to know that graphical windowing interfaces were a UI fad that wouldn't make it, making it unnecessary for him to invest in building or buying a Windows Bible software product.

 

I remember using GEM.  I even did a little programming on it.  I wrote a instrument manager from my Kawai keyboard on my Atari ST.  Man, I had forgotten all about that.  That was, what, late 80's?

Bob Pritchett said:

 And that was true -- all through the 90's and until recently. But now any serious mapping problem would want traffic data integrated into the solution. Any fleet manager would want dynamic re-routing based on real-time traffic incidents. Anyone researching a GIS problem wants integrated satellite imagery of any point on the earth at their fingertips. And while I could get an annually updated CD-ROM with all of America's roads, no CD-ROM could hold all the imagery of America at 3 meter resolution. No local computer could store it, or sort and aggregate the real-time reports of thousands of cars reporting back their GPS location over cellular networks for real-time traffic analysis on roads without sensors.

On the other hand, every time I go over the mountains where there is no reliable cell coverage, even from Verizon, I really miss having a local mapping app.  I think ideally, solutions need to be hybrid.  I may not be able to get 3 yard or better resolution, but I sure wish it could at least display where I am on the road.

Bob Pritchett said:

 

 antonym(word1=Gloss,word2=Antonym), Gloss < Antonym, token(reference=Ref,lemma=Lemma,gloss=Gloss), token(reference=Ref,lemma=AntLemma,gloss=Antonym).

Does that meet your need for

Russ White said:

...new ways to do research (even if it means more complexity) in a real desktop application.

? :-)

(But, I must confess, there's a catch... running that query (and the others this new system supports) in any reasonable time frame -- which we can do now -- requires a massive amount of data running on a server with massive amounts of memory. So while we could deliver it to your local machine, you'd need to dedicate 16 gigs of RAM to the query processing system. So our present plan is to build a rich, desktop UI for this -- no iPhone interface planned! -- but actually send the queries to a dedicated server in the cloud with massive memory and SSD hard drives. The result set will be sent back to you and delivered in a rich local UI you can manipulate on your own machine.)

While the syntax there is a bit less than intuitive, so I can't tell exactly what it's doing, it suggests you might be doing something similar to what I suggested years ago.  I've wanted to be able to use Princeton's WordNet database to be able to search for meanings rather than for words.  For those unfamiliar with WordNet, it organizes words by how they are semantically related.  You're probably familiar with synonyms and antenyms, but WordNet also does hypernyms, hyponyms, and meronyms (and maybe some others I'm not remembering off the top of my head).  So, if I want to find, say, things about the authorship of Mark, in a single search, I could find all sorts of related words to authorship without having to think of them (or look them up) myself.

Of course, I would also like to make use of natural language parsing in searching too.  No, I don't mean the semantic web stuff that tries to pull sylogism from the text and draw conclusions.  I mean to identify how words are related to each other grammatically.  Take my "authorship of Mark" search above.  There are lots of articles in my library (4000+ resources) that mention authorship and mark near each other that have nothing to do with the authorship of Mark.  But if I could search for authorship and related words that have a close grammatical relationship (I don't necessarily care which one) to the word Mark and anything closely related to it (like the phrase Gospel of Mark, or Mark's Gospel), then I probably will get a lot less false positives in my search.

Bob Pritchett said:

Yes, we do believe that. It's not the exact same software, but rather a toolbox of components, data sources, and flexible constructs that we can deploy on multiple platforms and customize for different users and user interface paradigms. Maybe this is too ambitious, but we think it can be done, and that we're already well on the road: we use the same ebook files, the same display engine, and other shared pieces to deliver to both the desktop and the iPhone.

Yes, we do encounter difficulties. Our massive data type system and Bible versification data sets, for example, are literally too large to deliver to today's mobile devices. So our mobile apps have to use some shortcuts, make some assumptions, and occasionally be less precise when navigating obscure texts while offline. If you need to do "real work" on comparing ancient texts, you'll want the desktop Logos Bible Software. 

I think its a mistake to think exclusively in terms of this tool for this user and that tool for that other user.  Everyone uses multiple tools, some more than others.  As long as we're using the tool metaphor, let me run with it for a few minutes.  Resources are like building materials.  Each building material, or more accurately, each use of each building material, has its own preferred tool for working with it.  To build our final product, a Bible Study, one has to choose there materials and tools that best suits there abilities and goals.

I'm a big fan about thinking about activities as a work flow.  The search tools (and conceptually, this includes the library manager) are the front end of my workflow.  I use them to find and select my building materials.  Some of the search tools are useful for finding types of building materials, while others for finding others.  As my library has grown, however, I've found the search of the full text of the entire library to be getting less and less useful because it returns way too many false positives (see my comments about searching for authorship of Mark above).  Doing extensive searching on a small screen just isn't very useful for weeding through 100,000's of hits, the majority of which are not interesting.  A big screen on a fast computer is more useful.

The next stage of my workflow is reading and taking notes.  In the analogy, this would be like cutting my building materials down to size.  I don't need a 30" monitor for reading a book or a journal artical cover to cover.  In fact that's counterproductive as it exceeds my field of view.  I find my 8.9" HP Slate (Windows 7) works very nicely for that, even if going from "page" to "page" takes 2 or 3 seconds.  I'm really looking forward to getting a Samsung Note when it comes to Verizon so I can try using the mobile app for this stage.  I seldom use the clippings and notes features.  Clippings because I can't reorganize them, notes because they used to be so slow, but I've noticed they have sped up a lot lately, so I may try using them more.  Mostly I use OneNote.  And I handwrite my notes with the stylus.  Yes, I could type text faster with a laptop, but the HP Slate is just too conveniently small and handwriting is much faster than virtual keyboards.  Plus, there's more to note taking than writing text.  With handwriting and OneNote, I can use positioning and color and ink weight and quickly drawn arrows and highlights and such to encode more information than just typewritten words allow.

The final stage of my workflow is typically at an actual keyboard using Word to write up the final study, and probably having a second monitor plugged in so I can have word and Logos and OneNote all up on the screen at once.  So to sum up my point, I move from using a laptop to do the initial searching, to a tablet for reading and notetaking (and in the future, maybe the tablet for notetaking and a phone for reading), and back to a notebook again.  Having the same resources, but different tools on different platforms to use those resources, is powerful and useful for a single user.  It isn't a matter of some users being phone users, some being tablets, some being laptop, and some being desktop users.

Bob Pritchett said:

Is that to the detriment of our service to you, the loyal power user? It may feel that way, because you see so much of our attention going to the consumers. But we also have more resources to give to our core power user market, and there are many more people in this market than there used to be. We have 26 times as many developers as when we built Logos 1.0. We have 8 times as many developers as when we built Libronix. If we give only 10% of our people and resources to developing desktop tools for serious study, we'll be giving more people and resources to desktop software than we ever have in our 20 year history.

I don't think it feels that way because the so-called "consumer" features are things important to part of my workflow.

Very interesting indeed.  Thanks to all.  The only thing I will add is that as has been mentioned above, I like the cloud but also want local storage.  Sometimes the cloud is not available for any number of reasons.  In Bob's example of the updated mapping giving an advantage while driving because the road changes are so huge that only the cloud can keep up, I heartily agree.  Google is updating it's maps constantly and they are the most updated that I can find.  Which is all great until your phone decides to have data drops, and then you're completely quite literally lost, until your cloud services decide to start working again, for that you will need a physical map or a physical chip with a map in it (which recently happened to me!).  

I love the cloud, and enjoy the syncing and also the tablet usage with Logos, but I am very glad all my resources reside on the two hard drives of my computers at home and at Church (cloud synced, of course).  I like the ease of keeping up, but I want the security of local storage.  Only then am I not dependent on the cloud to be working for me to be working.  

Kevin A. Purcell said:

What MS needed to produce to distinguish themselves was a tablet OS that could run the Logos Bible Software apps fo the world.

True...

So Kevin I agree with you that MS's tablet-only version of MS8 is probably headed for the also-ran heap...

But they also released a W7 replacement version with ALL the tablet features & front end that is ALREADY in beta running Logos 4? (Seems like I remember at least one post -- in this thread? --  from someone who's doing that.) Why do you feel that this version makes no sense, if the corporate buyers can flip a switch & continue pretty much as-is? Can't they really be all things to all people? ;-)

Kevin A. Purcell said:

 If they did what they did with win8 but had the ability to run apps like Logos, then they'd have something awesome and could draw people like me back.

Did you see the post from a user that is now running W8 beta (laptop version) WITH L4? What am I missing? Is this not the full tablet version that runs L4 that you're looking for? Takes advantage of full small available small-form processing power rather than a skinny one like ARM?

Again, what am I missing?

EDIT: Here's the thread: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/38163/340274.aspx#340274 

Kevin, you're right... no gestures or touch as yet in W8. Until there is, you're on target where this release is headed...

J. Jackson said:

That's a common misconception. 

Thanks for weighing in... :-)

Kevin A. Purcell said:

Windows 7 tablet version was not touch friendly. You had to use a stylus. For windows to really grab the mojo from Apple, they have to do something really bold. Another tablet software that runs little apps from an MS app store ain't it. If they did what they did with win8 but had the ability to run apps like Logos, then they'd have something awesome and could draw people like me back.

Perhaps matters of opinion.  A stylus can help--selecting text or trying to do a pen flick with a finger in Logos isn't advisable when the stylus makes that happen so much faster and more precisely.  In Win8 Dev, I have noticed that I can now use my finger to write in the handwriting pane and get OK results--in Win7, you pretty much had to use a stylus to get precise enough in the handwriting pane.

Funny.  I was blissfully ignorant at how poorly Windows 7 worked with touch when I bought my Asus Slate a year ago.  I'm really glad I didn't see this thread while I was using Logos to finish my graduate degree in theology using that Slate, particularly since I didn't realize it would only run little apps, and not MS Office 2010 Professional while writing my research papers, or running Visio and Project for work. 

I'm also glad I didn't know when I switched from Windows 7 to Windows 8 Developer preview back in October that I was turning my tablet that had replaced my laptop into nothing more than an oversized smartphone, like an iPad.  Dumb thing kept running Logos even on W8.  Glad I didn't know better.  Now that I've upgraded to W8 Consumer Preview, I'd better uninstall all those full Windows programs, since I'm obviously delirious and set it back so it's only running apps.  Or, I could swap it for the new version of the iPad, which can run full Logos, along with full MS Office programs.  Oh, wait... no it can't. 

I know, I'll go back to using a laptop, because it's much more convenient to carry the extra weight, and most people don't mind hearing the keyboard click while I'm taking notes in church, instead of using the pen like I do now. 

I just wish I hadn't bought this little tablet and installed the little tablet software that runs little apps from the MS app store.

Hey, wait a minute, Kevin!  You said "If the did what they did with win8 but had the ability to run apps like Logos, then they'd have something awesome and could draw people like me back.".   Guess what?  They did!  I'm typing on it right now!

OK, my sarcasm switch is off, but I've heard too many Apple fanboys dissing on MS anything because they're so in love with their Apple devices.  Steve Jobs did an excellent job building awesome user interfaces and stable platforms that stretched the bounds of computing.  Unfortunately for him, he couldn't break the stranglehold on the business world that MS held, so I stuck with the MS platforms (including Windows Mobile 5.x through 6.5 for my phones) for my personal use, since I was going to use a MS platform all day at work.  I was ready to dump my last Windows phone for an iPhone due to the quirkiness of WP, when Windows phone 7.0 came out.  I bought one of the first, and have to tell you that MS nailed it.  Sure it was an early release, and there were things missing, but W7.5 fixed that, and for objective reviewers Windows Phone is beating iPhone 4 and Android regularly. 

I was also ready to switch to a MacBook to replace my work laptop for personal use, when I stumbled upon this Slate and Windows 7.  Wow!  I forgot about the blue screen of death, and all the other issues with Windows XP (never did the Vista thing).  Biggest downer was the fact that W7 screen layouts and controls are not touch friendly.  It works, it's just that you have to have a rather precise aim with your fat little finger to hit the red X in the upper right corner to close a program.  Logos is also not touch friendly, as it's a real bear to scroll in the windows using the scroll bar, but I've learned to adapt (primarily using the arrow and page keys on the keyboard).  Windows 8 is taking my Slate to a whole new level.  I have a computer that's as powerful as my Dell laptop that my employer provides, but way more portable, with a user interface that's waaaayyyy more functional, whether I'm using the Bluetooth keyboard to write a research paper, or the stylus to take notes in OneNote (which by the way, synchs with my phone via SkyDrive). 

For those of you who haven't demo'ed Windows 8 yet, you should, and you should do it with someone who's actually used it and is familiar with it's capabilities.  Is it different?  Of course!  It doesn't have a start button.  Get over it, you don't need it anymore.  It works fine in a desktop environment, although I can tell you in my office, more and more folks are using their desktop environment less and less every day. 

NOW, IF ANYONE IS STILL READING:  I came to this thread to see what Logos was planning to do with Logos 4.x to make it more user friendly for Windows 8, and for the touch environment.  I posted many months ago about how the sliders for the scroll bars were difficult to use, that swiping and other touch gestures were desperately needed.  You (Logos developers) should have your copy of Windows 8 by now...  Please give us an idea when we're going to see some innovations in Logos that make it ready for the future.

I apologize for not making myself more clear; when I clicked "reply" on Kevin's thread on page 2, I mistakenly assumed that it was quoting the message.

I'm not sure what made you think my post was an attack on you, or that I was setting up any strawmen.  In fact, my post was intended to address the multiple comments on this thread that blasted all things Windows 8, by trying to explain (as have several other users) that Windows 8 works, and that Windows can work in a tablet environment, and do some of the very things that other posters here have condemned MS for either not doing, or ignoring. 

My feeble attempt at sarcasm obviously masked my primary purpose for writing. 

I hesitate to add anything to this thread because I know I am way over my head, but I wish someone could respond to why my simple wish is not what everyone wants:

I wish I could have my own cloud in my house...with only my content on it, and I can travel the world with a tablet and access my cloud, my material, in my possession, not material stored on someone else's servers.

The reason for this is that it is a known fact that cloud companies do disappear, and the content that people had on a company that goes bankrupt can disappear overnight.  As well, why have another monthly bill to put the huge amount of content on someone else' cloud based server which claims to be secure (a claim no company can really make today).

Companies offer respond by saying people do not want this.  I realize that might be true, but find it difficult to believe.  I more believe that there is more money in forcing the cloud to be outside the home.  And that is today's trend.

I have hope that in 5 years or so, eventually enough people will make it possible to use tablets connected to a cloud server based in one's home.

But if someone can correct this simple minded thinking, I really am listening.  I just cant see why people would not welcome a solution of a cloud in their own home that they can access anywhere.