I feel a little misled
L4 was pitched as a revolution in Bible study. Maybe one day L4 will be that, but right now, it's not very helpful. It's not the revolution they made it out to be. It should be a beta, not a final RC, until they get the functionality built into it. I have been using Logos for about 10 yrs. I have always been a huge fan. I purchased a mac upgrade a while back for my macbook pro so I wouldn't have to run it in VM ware. This, of course, was a huge mistake. The mac platform never really got off the ground. Oh well, money down the drain.
Now, I purchased the L4 upgrade, and I am disappointed. An incredible amount of core functions are nowhere to be found. I will keep working with it, but I don't care much for it. It seems like important functions have been stripped out. I don't even care much for the interface.
Now, many will say "just wait for the nice folks at Logos to fix this... they have demonstrated their aptitude and desire to do so." My response: "what about the mac platform I bought into late last year. That died. Logos didn't come through on that.
It really seems like L4 is a step backwards. I feel like I'm using Bible navigator or something. It's unsettling. I have always been a logos cheerleader, but now... not so much.
not real happy with Logos anymore.
Comments
Kevin there are things that I don't care for in V4 either, but overall it is far and above a more powerful system than V3. I am going to trust Logos to deliver the features I miss and use most like Sermon File Add-in, Smart Tags, etc... as promised. If not I may go back to the V3 engine.
As for being misled, not sure where...
Free engine upgrade, if you pay for the crossgrade it is not for the engine but for the additional resources which are a very good bargain...
My suggestion, take some time to play with the V4 engine find some of the not so obvious gems that are in it. It has only been released to the public for a few days... Hardly enough time to get familiar with and test the new engine. Take it from weeks of feeling what you are feeling during Beta runs...
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
Here's the way I look at it...
Even with the missing features that I dearly miss and always use from v3, L4 is still head and shoulders above any other Bible Software on the market.
One may have easier integration with MS Word (as of now - this will change when Logos finishes the updating of v3 features)
One may offer some classic study works like Apostolic Fathers in a cheaper package than Logos...
But add and subtract everything and Logos clearly is the last man standing in the Bible Study Software wars...
I'm sure if they tossed the Iphone/Ipod Touch app on the back burner and the Mac Alpha on the back burner all the PC features would be complete. Unlike most businesses they did not forsake their low percentage users (no disrespect intended here) and focus solely on the majority of their customers - the PC users.
Despite my disagreement on some issues (More User Control) and disappointment on other issues (Sermon File, Smart Tags, etc.) I still would not abandon Logos and the power and productivity that comes with it. To be clear I am not a consumer with thousands invested as some customers are....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
It really seems like L4 is a step backwards. I feel like I'm using Bible navigator or something. It's unsettling. I have always been a logos cheerleader, but now... not so much.
The folks who have had the hardest time adjusting to Logos4 are power-users. I'm not sure I qualify as a power-user, but I have been using Logos extensively since about version 1.6. (Sometimes I still miss the old library navigator that went out with version 2.) Many users, including me were also disappointed at first. I found I couldn't do things quite as efficiently as I used to. But that was mostly due to leaving behind my own customizations, and that I had learned to use Libronix so well that I no longer had to find anything.
L4 is a massive change in program architecture and user interface. It takes some getting used to. I sort of forced myself to use L4 as my primary sermon prep tool and soon found myself rarely going back to L3. I also find that I can now do things much more quickly, and go deeper in Bible study than before (not sure why).
Some of the 'missing functionality' I really miss. Some is just redesigned (it's there under a different name), a lot of it I actually don't miss anymore.
So let me encourage you to set aside the old, comfortable shoes and try on the new 'stiffer' ones for a while, and see if they don't get more comfortable the more you wear them.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
Rich,
I appreciate your encouragement. I will continue to give it a try. I do consider myself somewhat of a power user, so I do feel very constricted. Many features are now buried under different menus etc.
All that to say, I absolutely love the new cloud based system. I no longer have to worry about backing up all my resources and transporting them to a new machine etc.
I still feel like this release should be a beta since so many features are lacking. All that to say, I will press on, but I still feel a little misled by Logos.
I still feel like this release should be a beta since so many features are lacking. All that to say, I will press on, but I still feel a little misled by Logos.
Several Beta testers felt the same. But Logos was determined to get this out on schedule. Just imagine the program unfolding like a flower in spring over the next few months. It'll be fun. (Okay. Yes, I'm trying to be a 'glass-half-full' kind of guy.)
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
It sound overall like Logos is moving very quickly and in an almost Redmond style. From the comments I have heard here the problem appears to be an absence of something like a road map. Before I get L4 I would like to see a feature map that takes me from a feature in 3 to that feature in r4. Also where is the documentation (high level) that shows what changed, removed, added, etc?
The demo and these comments done encourage me to buy this new package of which this is the first time I have heard of it. Frankly, for a move this big where was the unveiling? How much thought went into this? I am on daily and this is the first I heard 4 was coming. I like 3 and Logos has done very little to educate me about 4 up to this point. That is poor marketing.
Dan Fugett, DBA, MSCIS, BSIT, AAB
Before I get L4 I would like to see a feature map that takes me from a feature in 3 to that feature in r4.
http://www.logos.com/4/missingfeatures
Frankly, for a move this big where was the unveiling? How much thought went into this?
About 4 years of thought. :-) I'm sorry it came as a surprise, though that was intentional. For many reasons we decided to try an "Apple style" unveiling rather than our previous "Microsoft style" year-long public betas.
We're working very hard to get more features into the product, and appreciate the feedback we're getting from all of you. It's good, because sometimes we forget your priorities and ours are different. I, for example, think Logos 4 is "all engine", because I know how much work we did to rewrite the guts. And I (almost) live in a "post-printing-world". I'm always surprised to hear how important it is to some people, since I don't happen to do it much. (If I say it's a green, eco-friendly feature to not have printing, does that help? <smile>) We need to be reminded what's important to you, so we can keep it high on the list.
Kevin:
I had much the same reaction as you when I first began using L4 but I'm steadily finding that most of the fuctionality is still there and in a generally more intuitive fashion than before. One of the things I've found really lacking is the current help file. I like to work in original languages so when I went looking for my Greek keyboard and could not find it on the bar or in the menus I took to the help file...nada there as well. I just happened to look at the new vids which showed how to input Greek. It seems most of it is there, it is just a matter of having the instructional material catch up.
Kevin:
I had much the same reaction as you when I first began using L4 but I'm steadily finding that most of the fuctionality is still there and in a generally more intuitive fashion than before. One of the things I've found really lacking is the current help file. I like to work in original languages so when I went looking for my Greek keyboard and could not find it on the bar or in the menus I took to the help file...nada there as well. I just happened to look at the new vids which showed how to input Greek. It seems most of it is there, it is just a matter of having the instructional material catch up.
I work with original languages too so you would have heard me squealing like a stuck pig if I had to rely on the program to convert a phonetically entered Greek or Hebrew, but fortunately I long ago installed the Logos keyboards in Windows and simply use the <alt-shft-#> combination to change keyboards and enter the words I want. I suggest you do the same. I personally intensely dislike entering transliterated text (or looking at it), but it can be avoided. I haven't come to terms with the new method of entering morphological parameters yet and would still prefer the old checkbox method, but it works once you've played around with it. Sermon files and smart-tags mean nothing to me as well as a number of other features of L4, but there are features that I do like. I never used the home page in L3, but I rather like the home page in L4 (though they could stand to change some of the entries every few days rather than allowing them to continue for days and days. Searches are definitely faster though I was not generally unhappy with the speed of L3 (I didn't often search my entire library). Even now though it is faster to search the entire library than to search only a part of it, I prefer to search only part since I don't care to sort through the search results. It's a mixed bag. The thing I miss most at the moment is all of my L3 notes which I would like to import into L4 and expect to eventually be able to do. Until that is done I will continue to use L3 more heavily than L4.
If you feel lost now, you would have felt even more lost in the beta process since there was no help file until the very end.
george
gfsomsel
יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
If you feel lost now, you would have felt even more lost in the beta process since there was no help file until the very end.
So we are suppose to feel better because a really poor product has now become better, but is still considerably less functional than an earlier version. Sorry, I don't buy it. This does feel like betaware - and though I did not pay as much as some to upgrade (I merely upgraded from Silver L3 to Silver L4), I am still disappointed.
Floyd
Blessings,
Floyd
Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
So we are suppose to feel better because a really poor product has now become better, but is still considerably less functional than an earlier version. Sorry, I don't buy it. This does feel like betaware - and though I did not pay as much as some to upgrade (I merely upgraded from Silver L3 to Silver L4), I am still disappointed.
Trust me, George isn't overly caring about how you feel :-)
So we are suppose to feel better because a really poor product has now become better, but is still considerably less functional than an earlier version.What Logos 4 does, it does better than 3. It is a much better approach, but change is hard for some folks. Check out some of the videos and maybe that will help you make the adjustment. If not, you are free to keep using 3.0. It is still supported by Logos.
L4 was pitched as a revolution in Bible study. Maybe one day L4 will be that, but right now, it's not very helpful. It's not the revolution they made it out to be. It should be a beta, not a final RC, until they get the functionality built into it.
Now, I purchased the L4 upgrade, and I am disappointed. An incredible amount of core functions are nowhere to be found. I will keep working with it, but I don't care much for it. It seems like important functions have been stripped out. I don't even care much for the interface.
not real happy with Logos anymore.
So are you a Mac Logos user?
If so ...you might want to post there...I'm not sure who realizes that you're talking about the Mac platform
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
It should be a beta, not a final RC,
Yea, I thought the (secret) beta was an alpha. Now it is a RC with some hard won features and promises http://www.logos.com/4/missingfeatures. Logos understood what our desire is and it is the same as yours. It also needs to be a commercial success for Logos, so they are very motivated[:)]
You can add Parallel Resource Associations and improved resource metadata to that list.
Dave
===
Windows 11 & Android 13
I too had to force myself to use Logos4 as a beta tester. There were many times when I just wanted to go back to 3 just to get it done quickly. But after a few weeks, I too find myself rarely going back to 3. There are some features that I really miss, and I would be more vocal about asking for them, except that they are promised soon...and in the meantime I can live without them (i.e. diagramming...I just do on paper in the meantime). But I just find that what I already did quickly in v3 and can do even faster in v4. For the first month or so I was only about 70% Logos 4. Now it's been over 2 weeks since I even launched the program that I used to spend over an hour with every single day for years.
GIve it a chance, and trust that most of what you're looking for is there (it might just be called something different). Learn how Logos 4 runs and it will quickly convert you.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org
I too had to force myself to use Logos4 as a beta tester
I am in this process now. I loved v.3 and had keyboard shortcuts defined to make the use of the software easier and quicker. I loved the control that I had over the details of the software. I purchased v4 upgrade on Monday and it was tuesday or so until I began using it. I went to sleep Monday night thinking that I made a big mistake and wasted the money over a hype. But, after a few days, it is starting to grow on me.
Question: I feel hesitant to highlight anything in v4 until my highlights and annotations are imported from v.3 because I don't know if they will merge with v4 or just overwrite them. I feel that this was a big issue to have completed for release. Notes and markups that I have done in v3 are essential in v4.
John
Question: I feel hesitant to highlight anything in v4 until my highlights and annotations are imported from v.3 because I don't know if they will merge with v4 or just overwrite them. I feel that this was a big issue to have completed for release. Notes and markups that I have done in v3 are essential in v4.
This issue was heavily mentioned by the beta testers and as I suspected would be the case Logos was listening. I would hold off highlighting until we see how much they are able to do. because of some significant differences how well these importers will work is still a question.
Question: I feel hesitant to highlight anything in v4 until my highlights and annotations are imported from v.3 because I don't know if they will merge with v4 or just overwrite them. I feel that this was a big issue to have completed for release. Notes and markups that I have done in v3 are essential in v4.This issue was heavily mentioned by the beta testers and as I suspected would be the case Logos was listening. I would hold off highlighting until we see how much they are able to do. because of some significant differences how well these importers will work is still a question.
I am sure that they will be able to import all notes and annotations from v3 to v4. But if they are unable for one reason or another to complete this in a timely manner, I will be first in line demanding a refund.
Question: I feel hesitant to highlight anything in v4 until my highlights and annotations are imported from v.3 because I don't know if they will merge with v4 or just overwrite them. I feel that this was a big issue to have completed for release. Notes and markups that I have done in v3 are essential in v4.
I've seen note importing working internally; we're days away from having the code done for notes and highlighting, then we'll do testing and then deploy it.
The plan is to import whole note files, preserving their names. So there won't be conflict with anything you do in Logos 4 now.
Highlighting won't overwrite your highlights on a book, but will merge into it. It's possible you could import a highlight "on top of" one you makein Logos 4, but they'd both be there, the way you can manually overlap them now.
The plan is to import whole note files, preserving their names. So there won't be conflict with anything you do in Logos 4 now.
Highlighting won't overwrite your highlights on a book, but will merge into it. It's possible you could import a highlight "on top of" one you makein Logos 4, but they'd both be there, the way you can manually overlap them now
Thanks, Bob! This is good news and I will be less hesitant to highlight and markup my books in v4 knowing they will be merged with v3 when the import tool in public.
John
Bob,
You guys have been so responsive to our impassioned pleas. I never much used either of these features in v3.0 and was a bit hesitant to start in 4 lest I lose all.
BTW. My list of 50 things I'd still love to see is still around 
I've seen note importing working internally; we're days away from having the code done for notes and highlighting, then we'll do testing and then deploy it.
The plan is to import whole note files, preserving their names. So there won't be conflict with anything you do in Logos 4 now.
Highlighting won't overwrite your highlights on a book, but will merge into it. It's possible you could import a highlight "on top of" one you makein Logos 4, but they'd both be there, the way you can manually overlap them now.
Thanks for listening and it sounds like you took it all the way.
I agree... I just downloaded the "4 Engine" just to get the feel without the expense and I am also frustrated the the layout and feel. I do understand that there is a learning curve. However, Logos could have expressed the fact that 4 would have a rather "out of the box" steep learning curve. Don't get me wrong, I love to learn. Yet, my comfort level with 3 is almost thoughtless and tweaked to my liking. Now, not sure where to begin with this. Just aimlessly clicking here and there and it seems to take up more RAM and CPU resources as well... Still wrestling 4, not giving up....
Win Vista/3gig/ AMD 64 Turion
~Dave
Hi Dan & David,
Most (if not all) of us who beta tested felt pretty much the way you seem to... there were lots of areas of initial discomfort, compared to L3 where we felt VERY proficient. Even worse, to really appreciate its power, L4 required us to change the way we work (& even the way we think).
In addition, while we did receive a free "crossgrade" to the equivalent / current package we already owned, please note that ALL of us are existing Logos owners--most of us with sizable investments.
In other words, we have lots of skin in the game, too, as customers.
About the only difference I can see between our frustrations is:
a) we've had a couple of months to work through them;
b) we've seen how responsive Logos has been in the couple of months to address the concerns we voiced; and
c) we've had enough play-time in the software to BEGIN to appreciate the new capabilities it offers.
If in any way we've offered offense, for one, I'm truly sorry. Here's hoping you're able to receive graciously the UNCOMPENSATED help offered by those who've gone a little farther than we have on the L4 trail. They're doing this because they truly want to help us, not because they're compensated in any way. And most have day jobs...
Many blessings to you!
Bill
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
iPad 9th Gen iOS 15.6, 256GB
I think at this point, enough time has passed that a few things are very clear: Logos has made a major change in their operating system. It is a fantastic product. But it is an unfinished product. A little bit more thought was needed in instructing us all in what to expect before taking the plunge into L4. The video does not cut it. It does not tell us how much free space is required on a machine before trying to switch. That is basic information. Richard on another post mentioned 12 GB. I really wish I had been informed before attempting to install L4. So much disappointment that many have could have been avoided just by having descent instructions informing the user what to expect realistically. In this, LOGOS messed up.
In the world of PR, there are two ways to move forward: the first is to deny a problem and defend the company's actions. It appears to me, that is the way LOGOS has chosen. The second way is to admit mistakes and correct them, and go over and above the call of duty to return confidence to the customer. Two case studies come to mind that demonstrate both options: The Exxon Valdez crisis and the Tylenol Crisis.
I still see no clear instructions on the L4 web site (learn more) except the video. I still see no FAQ page from logos (enough time has passed that this should be a priority). It seems to me, many will formulate their opinions after Kevin Purcell and others write independent reviews.
I am still holding out hope (being very patient) but only because of my investment in Logos. The update destroyed my computer (to which I have yet to recover). I still remember the one thing that kept so many returning to LOGOS time and time again: Bob P's honesty and openness with us. Sometimes I wonder who behind the scenes really was pushing this new shift in their operating system.
Mark
One more nagging thought: it seems like L4 is not as visually crisp or as quick as L3. Does anyone else confirm. The links and buttons don't respond like they do in L3. Perhaps, they will improve in this area. I personally don't feel that L3 was aesthetically in need of a massive overhaul. Perhaps some small changes would have been nice. This is just my opinion. I don't want to engage in any fussing. I'm just seeking to discuss my thoughts.
Here's what Bob had to say in the beta forum. It is worth repeating here, I think:
Chris
The leading Bible software products available today
(including Logos 3.x) are powerful tools designed 10-20 years ago. I believe
that all the top commercial Bible software companies were started in a day when
every single user owned a screwdriver for opening their computer case, and most
of us had flipped DIP switches or moved jumpers to install something.Our customers were "pastor geeks." Our software
was designed for people who liked technology, were comfortable with it, and
wanted to have fine-level control over it.Now that wasn't everyone who wanted to study the Bible, but
it was pretty close to everyone who wanted to study the Bible and owned a
computer.Today everybody has a computer, and lots of them are not
computer-geeks and don't want to become them. The majority of
"everyone" has something else they want to do -- from Bible study to
photography to cooking to water skiing -- and a computer is just one more tool
in their life for doing whatever it is they want to do. They just want it to
work.(There are "geek" minorities in every area of interest,
and many of us move across the spectrum over time. In software I've been moving
from geek to user. I used to disassemble software. Now I just want it to work.
In cooking I'm going the other way: I used to microwave plastic food, now I
hand grind spices.)As computer ownership has changed from being a reliable
indicator of computer-geek status to the equivalent of owning a toaster our
customer base has changed. There's interest in our tool for Bible study from
people who don't have any interest in technology. And we want to serve people
who want to do Bible study -- all of them. Not just the people whose interests are
both the Bible and computers.To serve them well, we need to get the technology out of the
way.(There are still open questions of what to simplify, what is
and isn't more powerful, what's easy, what's hard, what settings are and aren't
needed. We won't get that perfect in the first pass, or ever, but we'll keep
adjusting it based on feedback and experience.)The Mac vs. Windows argument is a great example of what's
happening in computers. The Mac has been around since 1984, and long derided by
"real computer users" as a silly toy that didn't have the power and
control we needed. And it was (and remains, in some ways) true. People
literally open up their PC's and modify them with hardware, add-on cards, special
drivers, connectors, software, etc. Nobody took a soldering iron to a Mac, but many
PC users of the 80's made their own circuit boards. Because if you were
spending $3,000 on a computer, in 1985 money, you had "serious computer
needs."20 years later the Mac is an overnight success. :-) It's
winning the mind share, it's converting people, and people are praising how
"it just works."Sure, it's gotten a little more flexible and powerful, but
for the most part the criticisms justly leveled against it in 1984 are still
true. It's a closed system that simplifies things. You're constrained to one hardware
vendor. What's changed isn't the Mac, it's the world. Computers aren't huge
investments by people who really need or like technology. They're toasters;
common household appliances used by everyone.I know people who like to tinker with cars. Most of them learned
to do that because they had to; the cars required the tinkering to keep
working. Even I was pretty familiar with what was under the hood of my first
car.Today I drive a car that recognizes my key in my pocket and
opens with a touch, starts with a button, and turns on the headlights and
windshield wipers automatically. I never open the hood. It alerts me when it
needs an oil change. The only way it could be better for me is if it radioed
the dealer about the oil change, sending its GPS location and historical
pattern information suggesting where it would likely be parked for 2+ hours so
the dealer could come and change it in the parking lot while I'm at work. Or,
better yet, if they made an engine that never needed an oil change. Or oil.Maybe you change your own oil. Maybe you like changing the
oil. Maybe you go out of your way to have an older car you can tune and tinker
without a special programming chip. More power to you; I get it. I don't have
to hand grind spices, I just want to.But you are no longer the majority of car buyers, and I am
not the majority of spice consumers. People want them pre-ground. Or just
cooked into the packaged plastic food. :-)I'm not asking you to change, or to stop loving total
control over the technology. I'm just explaining what's happening, and how it's
affecting us. I would encourage you to step back and think about it though. Sure,
you're used to changing your oil. You like the hands-on involvement and the
ritual of it. You did it with your dad or your son.But really, wouldn't an oil-free car be nicer for everyone?
Does the next generation want to mess with it?At Logos we spend approximately $1 million per year on customer
service and technical support. The majority of that expense goes to supporting activation,
installation on more than one machine, and "where are my book files / my
book files are out of date".So in Logos 4 we tried to eliminate as much as we could of
all those things. We're replacing activation with an email address and password,
even if you rarely/never use email. We're simplifying multiple machine
installation by simply synching all your settings and data. We're avoiding
missing/old resource files by having the software automatically download
missing and updated resources and manage them for you.Are some people going to hate it? Yes. Some people refuse to
have an email address. Some people want to manage every file on their system.
Some people use filters to control every byte in and out of their machine to
the Internet. Some people open up Logos 3 XML data files and hand-hack the
contents.And maybe that's you. If so, I've got two questions: Do you
think it's the majority? (I'm guessing not. Well, not guessing. I've got the
data, the feedback, and the frustrated calls to tech support on my side.)And secondly, do you really care? Or are you turning
something we did because we had to into something we want because we've always
done it that way?(I used to be forever deleting files and pruning my
directory tree because my hard drive ran out of space and I had to do backup on
floppy disks, and I needed to organize files to find them. My kids save
everything, throw it all in one directory, and use search when they want to
find it. We don't use half the hard drive, and they get bigger each year.)We're always stepping up to higher levels of abstraction.
You want to control where your files go, but do you really? Do you know that
the operating system breaks your 1 meg file into lots of chunks and scatters
them around the hard drive? Do you care? I used to. I used to run checkdisk,
undelete, and defragmenters all the time. I worried about contiguous chunks and
wrote software that was disk-sector-size aware. Now I let the OS deal with it,
though I still organize my folders.What if you bought a new computer at BestBuy, took it home,
turned it on, and after entering your name and password found that it brought up
every application, photo, video, and music file from your old computer. Would
that be cool?Well, it'd be scary, to you and me. How did it work? How did
it know? Did it store it on the server or use wifi to take it off the old
machine? Is it secure? etc. But what about our kids? Would they get nostalgic
for a null-modem cable and manually moving every file between systems? Would
they worry about whether moving an application directory brought over the
settings and registry keys?Or would they just think "well of course, it should just
work, and it did."With all that said, I know we need to make it work. We need
your feedback to know what's a good streamlining and where we need to leave
some user control. It's clear we can't assume your C: drive has enough space;
but I don't think that means we need to bring back the Location Manager report
and tell you file sizes and version numbers.And we need to respect the fact that some people want to
tinker with their car, and some people want to "reveal codes" in
WordPerfect, and some people want to write JavaScript macros on their Logos
custom toolbars.That's why you can buy and keep an old car, and that's why
we very intentionally did not make Logos 4 replace Logos 3. You can keep Logos
3, and every feature that worked there is still there, just as it was. We're
even ensuring it keeps running on Windows 7, etc.Logos 4 isn't a mandatory replacement, and it doesn't take
away anything you have invested in. It's an optional new product that works
with the content you've invested in. I hope you'll like it, and I hope you'll
help us make it better. But if not, I hope you'll still realize that it has
value for a new, different user, and that, correctly done, it can help even
more people get into better Bible study.(Last analogy: digital cameras. Early on they didn't offer
the power and flexibility of analog cameras. But they took photography from an
intentional activity that required expertise to something people do all the
time -- off cell phones! And as they improve they're offering even better
customization and power. But the funny thing is, people are caring for that
power less and less. Did you really want to mess with the exposure? Yes? Okay.
But what if the camera picked for you? What if it guessed, but then backed
itself up by taking every photo simultaneously at 15 exposure settings and letting
you pick the best result anytime later? Isn't that better? For some experienced
photographers, even that will probably never beat having "control".
But for most people? Simplicity backed up by power....)
That's why you can buy and keep an old car, and that's why
we very intentionally did not make Logos 4 replace Logos 3. You can keep Logos
3, and every feature that worked there is still there, just as it was. We're
even ensuring it keeps running on Windows 7, etc.
Hmm...that's nice. But will tech support continue for L3? Will they continue to work on the speed of searches in L3?
Again, nice post. And I agree with Bob. But to me, this is not the issue. The frustrations with L4 probably fall into only a few categories:
A. The user who does not like the new style
B. The user who simply is annoyed...really annoyed that they were not informed what would happen when they began to upgrade to L4
C. The user who is afraid that what he/she paid for in the past will be good for a few more windows operating systems before being so outdated, the library is no longer any use without updating to the new style
You cant do anything about user A. You can provide an answer for user C. But for user B, the only thing you can do, is apologize and correct the problem by adding a page on the L4 website informing the user of L3, exactly what is going to happen when they switch to L4, what to expect, how much space is needed to upgrade and how much time is going to be needed to make the installation and indexing complete, as well as pointing them in the direction of a FAQ page...and a quick tutorial (or user guide) that will help them make the switch.
Of course the other way to approach user B is to remind them that Logos is such a great program that there is none in its class...to inform them that statistics show that Logos is right and the customer is wrong to be annoyed...to remind them of the fruit of the Spirit and to get over the old clunker and move into the heavenlies, where Logos dwells....to get as many beta testers on board (or the geeks as Bob would say it) to blast the innocent and ignorant and simple folk for being so hard on a company for not producing a product that requires executing a file and nothing more to get the best product in Bible world up and running...to remind them how tired we all are of those who whine...
Granted, this second approach does work. The whiners eventually stop whining...and stop purchasing...and start investing in another company.
Each company on planet earth, during a crisis time, has to make the choice of how to respond to user B.
Again, nice post. And I agree with Bob. But to me, this is not the issue. The frustrations with L4 probably fall into only a few categories:
A. The user who does not like the new style
B. The user who simply is annoyed...really annoyed that they were not informed what would happen when they began to upgrade to L4
C. The user who is afraid that what he/she paid for in the past will be good for a few more windows operating systems before being so outdated, the library is no longer any use without updating to the new style
You cant do anything about user A. You can provide an answer for user C. But for user B, the only thing you can do, is apologize and correct the problem by adding a page on the L4 website informing the user of L3, exactly what is going to happen when they switch to L4, what to expect, how much space is needed to upgrade and how much time is going to be needed to make the installation and indexing complete, as well as pointing them in the direction of a FAQ page...and a quick tutorial (or user guide) that will help them make the switch.
Each company on planet earth, during a crisis time, has to make the choice of how to respond to user B.
I agree with your point on B.
I also feel this and posted it in a different thread:
I do agree that Logos has not communicated the lack of
features well/adequately/at all in many cases. That's a mistake they've
made.
Okay they made a mistake. That's water under the bridge. I
think everyone has heard that they've done that poorly. Can I say, move
on, nicely?
With respect to those who feel that it all had to be in L4.0 or it should never have been put out, the balance Bob felt was important was
to consider releasing the product as is and letting people take
advantage of the new features already implemented (while still able to
use L3 for those not) or just wait until it was all done. Either way,
he argued, you won't have the feature that isn't yet there until its
there - In other words, if you can't wait for sentence diagramming
until Q2 2010, it would not come faster if they delayed the launch of
L4 until it was ready, it would still be Q2 2010 -- only you'd have
nothing that L4 does have until then. He said, (paraphrased) if you
want to wait until that certain feature is added, wait, no one is
forcing you to move out of L3 or into L4.
So, I'm interested in a
VW clean diesel, but I'm also unwilling to buy a new car. So, I can
wait until the new ones become available on the used car market and in
the meantime keep running my Caravan -- it is my choice. But for those
who have no car (no Logos) he wants to get it out there so they can get
on board with the new and add features as they are developed. He's
taking a risk. But not forcing anyone to do anything.
If you can't live without an L3 feature, don't.
If you really don't like L4 ask for your money back, wait until
Q3 2010 or whenever the features you want are finished, and buy in then
-- probably at a higher price point -- that's your prerogative. I'll
wait for my Jetta diesel, you wait for L4.
That's my point of view.
Chris
Okay they made a mistake. That's water under the bridge. I
think everyone has heard that they've done that poorly. Can I say, move
on, nicely?
Unfortunately,
it is not yet water under the bridge. Everyone has not heard that they
have done poorly. Only people on this forum have heard it. I would
hope that the client base for logos is much larger than this forum.
The problems many experienced in upgrading to L4 will continue unless
Logos corrects the problem of information.
The issue is not about
what was or was not included. It is about information. How many more
computers will be destroyed for the simple reason that Logos has not
corrected the problem of informing the customer how much space or time
is required to install? How many calls and emails will go to Logos for
the simple reason that there is no FAQ page or manual to help guide
them through the product?
My posts are written to encourage Logos
to make simple corrections that they still have time to make...not in
L4, but in the information that is needed by the customer to
intelligently make the decision to upgrade now, or wait...or to help
the customer understand how to use the new program.
Bill,
Your post was somewhat encouraging, partially minimizes my frustration level with L4. I too have been using Logos products for many years. When V3 came out I was thoroughly satisfied with the finished product. Not so much this time. I agree with several others who have posted on this issue. There seems to be significant "bad press" about this release. What is sorely needed, in my opinion are two things from Logos:
1. A projection of what issues are currently being addressed.
2. Version 3 vs Logos4 - a clear comparison guire on a very granular level
I believe the degree of bad press would be greatly reduced if Logos were to publish the first list in the support page, and the second list on the sales page for L4.
I welcome replies as long as they are constructive.
Allen
Allen:
Is this the kind of list your want for #1 http://www.logos.com/4/missingfeatures ?
I don't believe there is anything for #2
Chris
I'm sorry to offend all the faithful - - but I couldn't agree with Kevin Jones post more!!! I feel totally ripped off by Logos because they just dropped the ball on their promise to make fully functional the original MAC platform. Money down the drain indeed!!!
Now I'm suppose to believe them when it comes to L4 for MAC. I feel stupid for having taken the hook and spent the money for upgrading to the Platinum package. I'm paying them for basically a blank screen - which by the way totally shuts down the program anytime you type any search item in. And yes - - It is fully "indexed".
I too am not real happy with Logos anymore. Just a lot of talk and little to show for it. Maybe in a several months or even a year from now there will be a working stable platform for MAC that will be finally working.
Until then, I limp along still with Logos DLS for MAC.
JWD
I'm sorry to offend all the faithful - - but I couldn't agree with Kevin Jones post more!!! I feel totally ripped off by Logos because they just dropped the ball on their promise to make fully functional the original MAC platform. Money down the drain indeed!!!
Frankly, I am also getting tired of the whining in this forum. Logos NEVER promised a fully functional Mac version without an upgrade. In fact, Bob P specifically stated that the Mac engine would not be made fully functional with L3, but that development would proceed in parallel with version 4 for windows. He has explained the reasoning L4 was developed first on the Windows platform. The underlying code base if already present in the Mac version of L4, the programmers are very busy building the UI.
If you are unhappy with Logos, find another application. But stop complaining about an unfulfilled promise that never existed in the first place.
Jack
I feel totally ripped off by Logos because they just dropped the ball on their promise to make fully functional the original MAC platform. Money down the drain indeed!!!I too am not real happy with Logos anymore. Just a lot of talk
and little to show for it. Maybe in a several months or even a
year from now there will be a working stable platform for MAC that will
be finally working.?
JWD Just a question: are you referring to the Alpha version?
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
I called customer support today with my list of missing or compromised features, and spend 90 minutes waiting and talking to someone who wasn't able to help. i was pretty peeved, so i was kicked upstairs and was able to speak with Dan Pritchett amazingly enough. I came away from that conversation with this information: Logos 4 isn't really complete yet. They haven't really made that clear to the public. They are really working hard on it. Right now, the available support staff isn't fully trained to answer the tougher questions beyond installation and other basic questions. The web site also isn't fully up to date to support the new Logos. Currently, the best source of support are the YouTube videos.
Before I spoke with Dan, I was ready to toss in the towel on L4 as a waste of my money and time. However, a simple honest answer from him, that the product is still being refined, but a lot of effort is going into this, put this into perspective, and I'm now willing to wait a little longer for the product to get into shape.
My plea is to please me more honest with the public, even if it means a bit of delayed revenue. If others are like me, this is a loyal consumer base.
Barbara Silverstein
Yes.
I applaus the honesty and accepting responsibility too.
Also, I agree that the more honesty now will get the already loyal customers over this little blip. Ok, maybe this time Logos dropped the ball and rushed to market. The kind of mature responsible handling that you are skeaking of keeps loyalty in tact.
Dan Fugett
Hi Barbara,I called customer support today with my list of missing or compromised features, and spend 90 minutes waiting and talking to someone who wasn't able to help. i was pretty peeved, so i was kicked upstairs and was able to speak with Dan Pritchett amazingly enough. I came away from that conversation with this information: Logos 4 isn't really complete yet. They haven't really made that clear to the public. They are really working hard on it. Right now, the available support staff isn't fully trained to answer the tougher questions beyond installation and other basic questions. The web site also isn't fully up to date to support the new Logos. Currently, the best source of support are the YouTube videos.
Before I spoke with Dan, I was ready to toss in the towel on L4 as a waste of my money and time. However, a simple honest answer from him, that the product is still being refined, but a lot of effort is going into this, put this into perspective, and I'm now willing to wait a little longer for the product to get into shape.
My plea is to please me more honest with the public, even if it means a bit of delayed revenue. If others are like me, this is a loyal consumer base.
Barbara Silverstein
I'm glad you pursued the issue(s) with Logos and that you were able to talk to Dan Pritchett. I'm coming from a different set of circumstances than you are; I was a beta tester and had to rely very totally on the beta testing forum for all my information about v.4. So, we had Bob Pritchett, and several programmers/techsupport giving us information not only about the different beta versions released but also about the kinds of things that you mention, e.g. that L4 was going to be released and there would be things missing that would be added. It took me almost a month to adjust to all the changes and finally, to accept them and even love L4.
It sounds like the worst part was not being given the whole story before you purchased the upgrade. And it also sounds like communicating directly with Logos helped you. I'm glad you posted your story and have had a chance to read what all of us have gone through. I don't think CHANGE has been easy for anyone, including all of Logos staff.
I really hope you like L4. The videos really go a long way towards becoming acclimated to the program. God Bless!
I too have been and am a loyal customer. I go all the way back to the CD Word from Dallas Theo. Sem. Every time Logos has introduced new versions, I have eagerly upgraded. So too did I with L4. I spoke with people at Logos before purchasing to make sure that it would work on my VMware Fusion partition on my MAC. They assured me that it would. (At that point in the discussion, they should have said, but you're going to need a whole lot of hard drive space for this massive program. It is now 13 hours later and I'm still not up and running (Yes, I spoke with two very nice Tech Ser people today). I really believe that a significant amount of additional information should be supplied to customers when they purchase the product. For instance the customers should be told:
1. Due to the word for word indexing feature of L4, please plan on allocating double the hard drive space that the resources of the program require.
(in my case, I purchased and upgraded from Gold to Platinum. When I started loading the program it suggested that I needed 11 GB of space. What I was later told was that because I am such a good customer (my editorial) and have a whole lot of additional resources above my gold package, that L4 merges the platinum package with pre-existing resources [now that's good]. What is a problem is that the indexing function then doubles the space needed as it indexes word for word what you have. I use my computer for everything. Knowing that I need 34 gigs of additional space instead of 17 gigs is something I would think I'd be told upfront.
2. Please note that unlike earlier versions, L4 will not allow you to customize your library.
(This is for me a fairly significant disappointment. While I was eager to have access to additional resources, there are some things that I don't want to have on my Hard Drive. Being forced to include them is not good in my view. But at least I should be told so I can make accommodations.
3. Please note that depending on the speed of your Internet connection, the installation process may take 12 - 14 hours.
(I'm not being funny here. When you have a history with a product, you kind of know what to expect. When I called Logos and was put on hold the animated voice said, if you start Logos 4 and the library page looks blank don't panic, it can take a long time for the program to index your resources. I think that some statement like that should be included on the page of the email that one receives after purchasing the product.
I'm nervous about the automated updates, etc. Again, for those who have to manage resources I'd be concerned about things being added to my program that I may not want or that may take me over my limit. Having discretion for those decisions is something we should be given in my opinion. Nevertheless, I'm still a devoted customer and fan of Logos. The TechnoRev
2. Please note that unlike earlier versions, L4 will not allow you to customize your library.
(This is for me a fairly significant disappointment. While I was eager to have access to additional resources, there are some things that I don't want to have on my Hard Drive. Being forced to include them is not good in my view. But at least I should be told so I can make accommodations.
Actually you can hide resources, which does remove the file from your hard drive. Open up the Program Settings and scroll down to the Hidden Resources section and expand it. Then you can drag books from the library to this section and they will be removed on program restart. Yes it's tedious, but it works (I have ~600 resources hidden).
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
i am guessing if you want them back later, that you can drag them from Hidden Resources. Right ?
Right.
CAUTION: If the resource was updated between the time of hiding it and un-hiding it, you may need to let L4 download the newer version before using it, or be prepared for L4 to freeze, stagger, or crash. Resources and the engine are more closely tied together in L4 than L3, and are still somewhat of a moving target. Expect frequent updates for the next few months.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
Yes it's tedious, but it works (I have ~600 resources hidden).
so that leave you with a couple of bibles and not much else....
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
Yes it's tedious, but it works (I have ~600 resources hidden).
so that leave you with a couple of bibles and not much else....
The truth is that the my hidden resources are about 1/4 of my total resource licenses. It probably also represents the all stuff that Logos could drop from the Platinum collection, and I wouldn't bat an eye.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
What is a problem is that the indexing function then doubles the space needed as it indexes word for word what you have.
I've not seen this before. How do you arrive at this conclusion (not challenging here, just wanting to understand).
2. Please note that unlike earlier versions, L4 will not allow you to customize your library.
(This is for me a fairly significant disappointment. While I was eager to have access to additional resources, there are some things that I don't want to have on my Hard Drive. Being forced to include them is not good in my view. But at least I should be told so I can make accommodations.
At this point in L4 development, you will have to download
everything once. After that you can hide a resource and it won't update
or download again. Further downloads will be automatic, though there are some significantly good reasons for this. L4 and L4 resources are integrally related. Changes to the program will sometimes require changes to resources. By pushing these changes together Logos hopes to avoid situations where users break the program by mismatching old and new, then calling tech support for help. This diminished 'granularity' is designed to save Logos $millions in tech support over the next few years.
spoke with people at Logos before purchasing to make sure that it would work on my VMware Fusion partition on my MAC. They assured me that it would.
Hate to say this, but L4 is known to have lag issues for some using it through VMware. You may or may not experience this. Check with other Mac users in one of the Mac forums for their opinion. Logos does know this and is working on it. In the meantime L4 is usable, but can lag at times.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
I've not seen this before. How do you arrive at this conclusion (not challenging here, just wanting to understand).
I think what he means is that you have one file on your computer that is the actual resource, .logos4, file. Then you have it adding to an index (multi-gig index) since the index is basically another copy of the resource sorted differently.
I think what he means is that you have one file on your computer that is the actual resource, .logos4, file. Then you have it adding to an index (multi-gig index) since the index is basically another copy of the resource sorted differently.
Okay, but my index is only about 20% the size of my resource directory. I don't doubt that the indexer requires some wiggle room, but I've not seen anything that says it needs 2X the space of the resource directory. (Though it's never been a good idea to have less than 25% of your hard drive space free.)
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
Thank you all for your input. Now that the cool evening has arrived, I'm more mellow about L4. The doubling was what one of the tech people told me. However, I called back and we actually looked at the resources folder and the indexing folder. The ratio was about 1:4 Where the indexing folder was about 1/4th the size of the resources folder.
I'm going to continue with the L4 on Fusion. I understand that the MAC version will be complete by the end of the year or early 2010. I guess that I'm getting older and need to watch the reaction to change principle, as I am not ready to declare myself to be old - smile.
Kevin -
I was a beta tester. My first look at V4 was similar, but not as strong as yours. As I actually moved around and got used to things, it was not long until that first impression vanished.
I think the new homepage creates some of this. I did not like it at first, and still am only "eh" about it. But the rest of the program is fantastic and certainly not a step backward, but a huge leap forward.
Keep trying, and even if it does not catch on with you, V3 is still there to use.
Jerry
Macbook Air (2024), Apple M2, 16gb Ram, Mac Sequoia, 1TB storage
thanks for the encouragement. I feel like it was an unwise marketing appeal though. They should have explained that features will be missing. Instead, it was presented as a massive leap forward in Bible study. Now I cannot find my resources. See other post.