Finding μεν ουν constructions without δε
Is it possible to search for μεν ουν constructions without any following δε in extra-biblical literature? I'm trying to do a paper on the use of μεν ουν in Acts 23, and can't figure out what to put in the search bar.
Ideally, it would make it so that the search brings up μεν ουν constructions with no δε in the following clause.
Thanks for your help!
Comments
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Ryan Quey said:
Is it possible to search for μεν ουν constructions without any following δε in extra-biblical literature? I'm trying to do a paper on the use of μεν ουν in Acts 23, and can't figure out what to put in the search bar.
Ideally, it would make it so that the search brings up μεν ουν constructions with no δε in the following clause.
Thanks for your help!
"lemma:μέν BEFORE 1 WORD lemma:οὖν ANDNOT lemma:δε" seems to work. On the other hand "lemma:μέν BEFORE 1 WORD lemma:οὖν BEFORE lemma:δέ" gives instances with δέ following.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Ryan Quey said:
Is it possible to search for μεν ουν constructions without any following δε in extra-biblical literature? I'm trying to do a paper on the use of μεν ουν in Acts 23, and can't figure out what to put in the search bar.
Ideally, it would make it so that the search brings up μεν ουν constructions with no δε in the following clause.
Thanks for your help!
Welcome [:D]
George Somsel said:"lemma:μέν BEFORE 1 WORD lemma:οὖν ANDNOT lemma:δε" seems to work.
Observation: morph search looking for μέν BEFORE οὖν in numbered verses that do not have δε should find a number of verses.
George Somsel said:On the other hand "lemma:μέν BEFORE 1 WORD lemma:οὖν BEFORE lemma:δέ" gives instances with δέ following.
Caveat: if δέ is in the same numbered verse (e.g. Acts 25:4), but misses δέ in subsequent numbered verses (e.g. Acts 23:32 that follows Acts 23:31).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Thanks for the help! Actually, I had tried those, but the problem that I keep running into is that so often δε will be in a different verse, so I come up with thousands of hits, and the ones I looked through all had a δε-clause.
Another issue is that when I'm searching extrabiblical literature there are no verses, so I'm not really sure how the searching works.
Thanks again!
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Personally living and learning; appears Perseus has numerical verse boundaries for morph search:
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Ryan Quey said:
search for μεν ουν constructions without any following δε in extra-biblical literature
A little different way in searching resources which have syntactical databases is to use the syntactical search. I know you are interested in extra-biblical literature which doesn't have this. Here's how it looks for the OpenText NT:
This gets around the verse boundary problem of some of the other searches. This search found 22 instances in Acts.
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George Somsel said:
"lemma:μέν BEFORE 1 WORD lemma:οὖν ANDNOT lemma:δε" seems to work. On the other hand "lemma:μέν BEFORE 1 WORD lemma:οὖν BEFORE lemma:δέ" gives instances with δέ following.
Another option would be to find all men oun constructions and then subtract all men oun with de. One could use Passage Lists to accomplish this. This would work on versified resources.
As I ponder over how to do this, it seems to me that this is one of the instances where the graphical search in Libronix was more powerful than the text search strings in Logos 4. It could do this construction in one search.
Prov. 15:23
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Ryan, I am not sure what you are driving at but, rather, indeed, of in light of, on the other hand….and you say in Acts 23.?
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μέν
δέ
… δὲ … on the one hand, on the other hand Gn 27,22; μὲν γὰρ … δὲ … for indeed … but … Jb 28,2; μὲν οὖν then Gn 43,4
C 19-3-4-31-165=222
Gn 18,12; 27,22; 38,23; 43,4.14
expresses certainty, or points out that the word or cl. with which it stands is correlated to another contrastive word or cl. that follows, the latter word or cl. being introduced by
Cf. Lee, J. 1985, 1–11
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μενοῦν (menoun), rather. A compound of μέν and οὖν. Cognate words: μέν, μενοῦνγε, μέντοι, οὐκοῦν, οὖν, τοιγαροῦν
89.128 (1) rather Lk 11:28
Forms of μενοῦν
Μενοῦν
TE(1)
μενοῦν
μενοῦνγε (menounge), rather. A compound of γέ and μέν and οὖν. Cognate words: γέ, ἐπίγειος, εὖγε, καίτοιγε, μέν, μενοῦν, μέντοι, μήτιγε, οὐκοῦν, οὖν, τοιγαροῦν
89.128 (3) rather Rom 9:20; 10:18; Phil 3:8
Forms of μενοῦνγε
μενοῦνγε
TE(3)
μενοῦνγε
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μέν
, Particle, used to shew that the word or clause with which it stands answers to a following word or clause, which is introduced by δέ. Generally, μέν and δέ may be rendered on the one hand, on the other hand, or as well. . , as, while or whereas, but it is often necessary to leave μέν untranslated.
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Ryan Quey said:
Is it possible to search for μεν ουν constructions without any following δε in extra-biblical literature? I'm trying to do a paper on the use of μεν ουν in Acts 23, and can't figure out what to put in the search bar.
Ideally, it would make it so that the search brings up μεν ουν constructions with no δε in the following clause.
Thanks for your help!
Gents.
I got'sa be honest, I did not get any of what ya’ll posted to work in L4, nada, zilch. so if'n ya'll still have those layouts would ya post them....Thanks.
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But on the filp-side I did get this:"μέν ουν" which gave 10k plus - 496 resources, and five verses for Acts 23. I think that if you view the verses.............
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As the OP's question is re: extra-biblical sources, would it be best to begin at the Perseus website's search? It would still be a mix of searches and manual willowing but ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Kevin Becker said:
Another option would be to find all men oun constructions and then subtract all men oun with de.
For resources with a morphology (biblical or otherwise) you need to use a Basic Search to remove the restriction of verses:-
<lemma = lbs/el/μέν> BEFORE 1 word <lemma = lbs/el/οὖν>
- see para 10 in this wiki article for derivation of constructions like <lemma = lbs/el/μέν>, which must be used outside of Morph Search.
But rather than manually scan for occurrences of de you can search for them as follows:-
(<lemma = lbs/el/μέν> BEFORE 1 word <lemma = lbs/el/οὖν>) NEAR <lemma = lbs/el/δέ>
- see para 5 in this wiki article for explanation of NEAR
Note that the use of AND will give incorrect results as it will find occurrences of de that are unrelated to men oun whilst NEAR restricts its proximity. For the same reason ANDNOT will also give incorrect results.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Thanks for your help!
Is there a way to make it so that δε is NOT near to the μεν ουν?
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Ryan Quey said:
Is there a way to make it so that δε is NOT near to the μεν ουν?
You then need a query that will account for zero occurrences of de as well as occurrences that are not NEAR, and this is not possible with a Basic Search (or other text Search). The Syntax Search is better suited for this but it is difficult to formulate a proper query.
A manual inspection of the searches proposed is more rewarding.
EDIT:
You can try (<lemma = lbs/el/μέν> BEFORE 1 word <lemma = lbs/el/οὖν>) WITHIN 10-120 words <lemma = lbs/el/δέ>
but de is such a common word that you don't get a meaningful result!
10-120 means nothing closer than 10 words (not near) nor further than 120 words; which is an arbitrary large number.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Ryan Quey said:
Is there a way to make it so that δε is NOT near to the μεν ουν?
How comfortable are you with regular expressions? You can
- do a search for μεν ουν in the Perseus collection
- export the results to a text editor that understands regular expressions (like Notepad++)
- search/replace μεν ουν(anything)δε with μεν ουν(anything)[tab]δε
- copy and paste to Microsoft Excel
- sort by the column containing δε
This gives you all μεν ουν without δε together. This is actually harder to write than it is to perform. This only looks for δε within the context of the search that Logos returns, but that would probably catch most of them.
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Notepad ++ doesn't seem to work on Mac; is there something I can use for Mac?
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Ryan, haven't touched a mac in years, but I would think that any text editor should work. altho I could be wrong...
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Ryan Quey said:
is there something I can use for Mac?
Mellel? A number of users rave about it, but I have never used it. http://www.redlers.com/
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
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alabama24 said:Ryan Quey said:
is there something I can use for Mac?
Mellel? A number of users rave about it, but I have never used it. http://www.redlers.com/
Logos 4 Mac forum has threads => LibreOffice Mac and Hebrew and => Support for external editors?
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Ryan Quey said:
Notepad ++ doesn't seem to work on Mac; is there something I can use for Mac?
Any editor that understands regex (regular expressions) will work--you can even use MS Word -- at least the PC version does regular expressions. Although I use MS Word, I don't like how it handles regex. You can even use EMACS
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A quick Google search found a number of people recommending TextWrangler. Here's a recommendation with a quick intro to regex
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com/2011/04/introduction-to-regular-expressions.html
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