I have gained a lot from the books by Tim Keller: The Prodigal God, Reason for God and Generous Justice. I recommend that Logos consider having them in the Logos format. They are already available in Kindle.
Thanks.
Paul
[Y]
Yes, Please.
Hear, hear.
I have gained a lot from the books by Tim Keller: The Prodigal God, Reason for God and Generous Justice. I recommend that Logos consider having them in the Logos format. They are already available in Kindle. Thanks. Paul
I just bought the paper versions of 2 of his books, but I would be very happy to have them also in Logos. Great suggestion. [Y]
While his books are great, if we could get a sermon collection from him, that would be even better.
Agree - books would be great
Yes!
+1
Now that they have their own publishing house (in Redeemer church), AFAIK, maybe they will be eager to publish in Logos, too.
[Y][Y]
[Y] Absolutely, but don't forget Counterfeit Gods and King's Cross [;)].
Tim Keller sermon's would be FANTASTIC! [Y]
Yes - Counterfeit Gods and the rest
It would be amazing to get even a partial collection of his sermons!
[Y] Agreed: just yesterday I was just here for Keller.
I would buy Tim Keller books and sermons. I would especially love the sermon collection.
Some of his stuff is already in Vyrso.
Thanks to this message thread and the accompanying prayers, the Tim Keller Sermon Archive will be releasing soon!! http://www.logos.com/product/17902/timothy-keller-sermon-archive
I love his sermons. The progress of pre-pub seems slow by the progress bar on the website. DJ: Do you have insider info that it is coming out of pre-pub?
Is it just me, or is anyone else disappointed / annoyed / frustrated / angered by the $200 price tag of Tim Keller's sermons?
On Tim Keller's side of the equation, these sermons are his digital exhaust. He was paid by the church to prepare the sermons and he gave them. Why would he expect to be paid for them again?
On Logos' side of the equation, yes, there's a lot of work in preparing 1,223 sermons. But that's no reason for Logos to charge $200 in perpetuity as the sole vendor of Tim Keller's sermons.
This is too valuable a resource to make it unaffordable to people. If Logos is the sole custodian of Tim Keller's sermons, it should act like one and make them as widely available as possible. Instead this feels to me like profiteering.
No doubt Logos would counter that they're in business and there are costs they need to recover (and a profit that they're entitled to). No problem - we'll crowdsource it. Send ten sermons my way and I'll do the work for free using my personal book tool. And I'm sure we can find 122 others who will do the same. Anyone?
I hear what you're saying, but for me I look at the price and make a decision based on if I think I see that as value for money. For me, in this instance I do. In other instances, for me, I don't and I don't purchase. If I don't like the price, I don't purchase. I don't get angry about it.
I was under the impression that the sermons will be transcribed from audio, which is the reason for incremental release as this will take a lot of time. This being the case I had also presumed that this process would be costly. I can't find where I read that though. Can anyone else confirm?
Having said that, maybe the price is the reason for the slow progress.
I've read a couple of his books and enjoyed him. We also listened to his The Prodigal God sermon series and got a lot out of it. I actually read the book after listening to the series and found it helpful to read instead of listen. That said...the price of this collection is definitely the reason I have no interest in purchasing it. I wouldn't get $200 worth out of reading his sermons.
This was my impression too. I think someone posted a copy of a typical Tim Keller sermon outline / notes in another thread and suggested this would be the case.
I guess this is hijacking the original thread a bit, but I'm not any of the adjectives you mentioned.
For one, if you want to get the audio for Keller's sermons you have to pay $5 a pop. That's right, Keller chargers for his audio. Personally, I've got no problem with that since he happens to preach in on of the most expensive cities in the world, so I have no problem kicking in some cash to help support their efforts there. That said, at $5 a pop, you'd get 40 sermons for $200. WIth Logos, you're getting ALL his sermons. So, it is a good deal there.
Next, sermon transcription is EXPENSIVE when it is done well. The company logos went with is the industry leader in sermon transcription (http://www.facebook.com/digitalsermontranscription/posts/420060431356015) The quantity of transcription that will take place will no doubt be costly, but it will be very high quality. Much higher than a crowdsourcing effort.
Finally, while I don't know the details of the Logos' deal with Keller, hopefully the transcripts will be available elsewhere. For example, after they transcribed Driscoll's sermons, you can now get transcripts on all his sermons from the Mars Hill website. However, the power is always hiving them searchable in Logos.
In the end, if you feel Keller's sermons are useful in your study of the scriptures, $200 seems like a reasonable price for sure.
You kind of made the argument for Logos. As an aspiring pastor I value this resource much higher than technical commentary sets for which I paid far more. Do I wish it was less expensive? Of course. But for a resource of this value and breadth I'd gladly pay this price or even more.
Thanks all for your thoughts.
I think I can sum up my main objection with an analogy - imagine if Wesley's or Edwards' sermons were locked into a proprietary format in perpetuity and the entry price was high enough for most pastors to say 'actually I won't'. Keller's sermons are too important for this outcome. The price changes our behaviour - we need to be certain that it's worth such a high amount and for many pastors (and lay people such as myself) they can't have that amount of certainty in this all-or-nothing deal.
Tim Keller's should become part of the public Christian infrastructure that we all benefit from. That God is glorified by. Not locked into Logos at $200 where 100 or even 1,000 people access them. If we did this to Wesley and Edwards they'd be turning in their graves.
Thanks for your comment, Dave. The problem here is that capitalism is about companies taking a risk and in return receiving a reward. And through the pre-pub and community pricing models, Logos avoids taking any significant risk (they don't start unless they have orders to cover costs) and yet they continue to seek a reward in perpetuity. This is understandable for works in the private domain where there is a publisher or author who expects to be paid (as this is part of their set of expectations - they wrote something and expect the patronage of those who consume it) and it's not unreasonable for Logos to take a cut (of value unknown ... ?) in return for this service.
But Logos still does this with resources that are public domain (Spurgeon, say) or made available freely online (John Piper, say). This is, in my mind, unconscionable - Logos should make these free resources part of all base packages. And so it is here with Tim Keller's work. He's already been paid for it. The high price will prevent a large number of people from using it. The answer is to drop the high price and see the work spread for God's glory.
This still raises the objection of cost and there are at least two ways to deal with that:
run a Come&LIve!-style 'I give so others live' program. For resources that are public domain or the publisher offers electronically for free, Logos could invite a small number of people to make donations to cover the cost of production so that the resources could be made free for everyone in perpetuity. And for that I'd happily pay $200. Count me in.
I've also decided to send Tim Keller's office an email asking him to not lock his sermons into the Logos format. I'll also send an email to Bob Pritchett suggesting the 'I give so others live' model. And perhaps I should start a new thread on that to gauge public support. Thoughts?
Wow.
Two of my favorite ministries have different philosophies about this very subject. One gives away almost EVERYTHING free of cost. The other charges a reasonable, but not inexpensive, amount for everything. I wish both churches had the same philosophy the second church had the philosophy of the first, but I would never presume upon the one the values of the other. (The second ministry's material is superior in my opinion, but the first reaches a much wider audience). There is nothing immoral about Tim Keller (I don't even know who he is) selling his work. There is also nothing wrong with Logos making a profit. If you don't like it, start your own company and write your own sermons.
I think I can sum up my main objection with an analogy
Allow me to sum up my view with a comparison based on what came up first in a Logos search::
$ 23.50 for 19 sermons - Farm Sermons by Charles H. Spurgeon ($1.24 per sermon)$ 10.99 for 13 sermons - Expository Sermons by Ian R. K. Paisley ($0.85 per sermon)$ 27.27 for 19 sermons - Cambridge Sermons by Joseph Barber Lightfoot ($1.44 per sermon)$ 99.95 for 300 sermons - Fresh Sermons by James L. Wilson ($ 0.33 per sermon)$ 36.95 for 24 sermons - Sermons on Gospel Themes by Charles G. Finney ($1.54 per sermon)$ 9,95 for 12 sermons - Sermons Preached on Various Occasions by John Henry Newman ($ 0.83 per sermon)$199.95 for 1,233 sermons - Timothy Keller Sermon Archive ($ 0.16 per sermon)
Seems to me that your best argument might be that they should be divided into multiple volumes that are purchasable individually.
If we did this to Wesley and Edwards they'd be turning in their graves.
Did I miss something? I think the pricetag for the Edwards collection I ordered is $900. Edwards isn't rolling over. You can get all those works free from Yale. But to get it into Logos Bible Software is going to cost. It's the same principle with Keller's sermons.
$69.99 for 1174 sermons- The John Piper Sermon Manuscript Library (1980–2009) ($0.06 per sermon).
$200 for a collection of sermon is too expensive for most people.
"Price elasticity measures consumer responsiveness in relationship to quantity demanded and price per unit purchased. If producers can increase total revenue by lowering price, demand is considered elastic. If producers can increase total revenue by increasing price, demand is considered inelastic. Businesses receive maximum total revenue at the point when the greatest number of units can be sold for the highest possible price. "
I think they will be able to sell more if they lower the price: many more people would be interested. They should set its price comparable to Piper's collection.
If we did this to Wesley and Edwards they'd be turning in their graves. Did I miss something? I think the pricetag for the Edwards collection I ordered is $900. Edwards isn't rolling over. You can get all those works free from Yale. But to get it into Logos Bible Software is going to cost. It's the same principle with Keller's sermons.
Thanks Matthew. There are two points here:
There are some things - air, water, the right to send an email, etc. - that are too important to charge their full 'value' for, because charging full value for them limits their use. It's like offering bibles to non-believers for $200 - the bible is definitely worth it but that doesn't mean they'll buy it. Tim Keller, Edwards, Spurgeon and the rest are Christian air - let the world breathe it for the glory of God, not the collection of $200 x a handful of Logos users. It's far too important for that.
As discussed above, I have now emailed both Tim Keller's office and sales@logos.com to propose that:
Logos adopt a new model for public domain content that allows users to volunteer to cover the costs so that all other Logos users may freely access them,
Based on experience as a volunteer editor at CCEL and in making PBB's in L3, I would not be willing to pay much for crowd-sourced documents. I also would want to explore if the coordination and quality assurance for crowd-sourced documents actually cost more than their current contractors.
Thanks MJ. I did not mention crowdsourcing in my email - I suggested that people volunteer to pay production costs so that all other users can have the finished resource for free. (i.e. that Logos does the work).
Thanks, Andrew. - that is a much more viable option.
I think I can sum up my main objection with an analogy - imagine if Wesley's or Edwards' sermons were locked into a proprietary format in perpetuity
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Wesley and Edwards are dead, and this guy Keller seems very much alive.
Tim Keller's should become part of the public Christian infrastructure that we all benefit from.
They will be. 70 years after his death, when the copyright expires.
This is understandable for works in the private domain where there is a publisher or author who expects to be paid
You mean like with Keller's works...?
It seems to me that you're arguing that for some reason Tim Keller doesn't have the same right to his own work as every other author has. And it sounds a lot like you want Logos to just steal it. I presume that wasn't your intention?
In that case it seems to me that your argument is either that Tim Keller should voluntarily give up his copyright, or that international copyright law should be changed. Neither of which is in Logos' power to do anything about. So why attack them?
Logos adopt a new model for public domain content (...) andTim Keller's sermons be made available freely under this model.
Again, Logos can't do that, as the sermons aren't public domain. That would be stealing.
It seems to me that you're arguing that for some reason Tim Keller doesn't have the same right to his own work as every other author has. And it sounds a lot like you want Logos to just steal it. I presume that wasn't your intention? In that case it seems to me that your argument is either that Tim Keller should voluntarily give up his copyright, or that international copyright law should be changed. Neither of which is in Logos' power to do anything about. So why attack them?
Thanks for your thoughts, fgh. It would appear that my attempt to speak concisely in this forum has done me a disservice.
This was my email to Tim Keller's office:
I'm writing to express concern that the transcriptions of Pastor Keller's sermons will be locked into the proprietary Logos format and offered at such a high price ($200). I'd like to propose an alternative approach. In short, my concern is that Pastor Keller's sermons are too valuable to have their use limited in this way. If, for instance, Edwards', Spurgeon's or Wesley's sermons were only available via Logos for a significant fee, generations of pastors would not have been influenced by them. And I want to suggest that over time Pastor Keller's sermons will be as important to the Christian world if they are made widely available. This is Christian air - everyone should be able to breathe it freely for the glory of God. I would therefore like to suggest that:
I would also like to suggest the same approach for the Redeemer sermon store - that a smaller number of people make significant donations to allow the world to have unrestricted access to them rather than limit their use by charging for each sermon - the application of a fee changes the behaviour of those would otherwise consume them. On a personal note I'd like to thank you for the books and free sermons - over the last two years they have played a significant part in the Lord's transforming work in my life.
They have replied to say:
Regarding the sermon transcripts on Logos, they are only proprietary in that they are first being formatted for use within Logos Bible Software, but they are not going to remain exclusive. Having the transcripts made is a large and costly undertaking which Logos has been licensed by Redeemer to administer. The Logos pre-pub offer, which you've cited, is actually in our opinion, a brilliant model for getting the project underway. Once the transcriptions are created however, they will be given to Redeemer for the discretionary use of the church. Redeemer simply does not have the staffing to create the transcripts on our own. As Dr. Keller and many of our staff are users of Logos software, we are thrilled about the application of the sermons in their format. Their functionality is not something we could reproduce. We are also excited to have the entire library at our disposal once the work is complete. There really is no limitation here, only what we see as a great opportunity. I apologize, however that you've had insufficient information at your disposal to see the full picture. We are still ironing out some details and so we haven't made a comprehensive announcement. More will follow in the near future.As to the larger question of whether Redeemer should charge for sermon recordings, the basic reason we do relates to the costs associated with creating, maintaining and distributing the library (personnel, equipment, office rental space, web-hosting, etc). The elders of Redeemer decided from the outset that the Sermon Ministry should pay for itself and not require funding from Redeemer's operating budget that would hinder the church's ministry work in the city.Related to that, you indicated that you are aware that we have made over 200 sermons of Dr. Keller's, both old and new, available on our Free Sermon Resource. We were careful to include sermons that would cover the breadth of Dr. Keller's teaching. Listening to all of them would give you the equivalent of what a Redeemer member would receive over the period of five years.We truly appreciate that your concern comes from an appreciation of the ministry of Dr. Keller and Redeemer Presbyterian Church. I hope this brief response will put things in a better light.Thank you for your support.
I am considering whether to reply and if so what to say.
My email to Logos said:
Hello, I'm writing to suggest an alternative model for producing public content - content that is public domain (e.g. Spurgeon's sermons) or the author makes freely available online (e.g. John Piper). What I would like to see for this content is a model that allows Logos users to 'give so others live' - to *donate* towards the cost of producing the content in Logos format so that all future Logos users can freely receive the content as part of the base package. The alternative - the status quo - is quite troubling to me, as it would appear that Logos makes money from public content without bearing any risk (as users to bear the cost of producing the works through community pricing or pre-orders). And this means that valuable public content is underutilised (as not everyone who would benefit from the content can/will pay for it) for the sake of making 'free' profit for Logos. I would suggest that it should instead be spread widely for the glory of God. This is Christian air - let us all breathe it. As I believe Tim Keller's sermons to be important enough to be widely used by Christians around the globe, I have also contacted Tim Keller's office asking him not to lock his sermons into the Logos proprietary format - to separate the transcription work from the Logos formatting work so that the transcriptions can be made available in other formats - PDF, web, etc. I have also put forward this model of users volunteering to cover production costs so that his sermons might be made freely available to all Logos users. Thanks for your time - if you have comments or questions I would be pleased to discuss this further with you. Yours in Christ, Andrew
They have replied with:
Thank you for your email!I have forwarded your suggestion to suggest@logos.com.If you have any further suggestions we would love to hear them, you can email suggest@logos.com Blessings!
fgh, if you still have concerns about my motive or approach I would be pleased to discuss it with you.
As an addendum to the above, a wise old Christian once said to me:
"In the world we buy and sell, but in the kingdom we give and receive."
My focus is not on rights nor on undermining them - my focus is on growing the kingdom. In this case I believe that if Tim Keller voluntarily relinquishes the right to be paid for his work the kingdom will be better served.
Andrew - I think that I have come to see and appreciate your heart in this matter. I do not, however, believe that I need to impose this view on others. I think it clearly falls within the realm of Christian liberty. As I mentioned above, there are two ministries that I like to follow regularly. One gives away almost everything for free. I really respect the pastor and his ministry for such a "kingdom" mindset. Honestly, though, the materials that they offer are often very good, but my "go to" material comes from another church, which I believe puts out excellent material. Even though I can get free stuff from the one church, I will often purchase material from the second because it is better. Each church has a different calling, and I am glad to support both ministries. I believe that both ministries are good stewards of the things God has given them, and they are accountable to God for how they manage those things.
I once remember sitting in a deacons meeting, when one deacon was furious that the church was going to spend nearly $20,000 for a projector. (Projectors were much more expensive in those days). What he couldn't understand is that 400+ people every week were going to benefit because the sight line in the balcony wasn't very good. In his mind, such things shouldn't distract people. In the real world, however, we know that they do. No one would gripe about paying a pastor $20,000 a year (except the pastor!), but the purchase of this projector was a major cause of conflict for 6 months!
No one, that I am aware of, is accusing Tim Keller of anything immoral or unethical. You have written your letter and received a very thoughtful reply (in my opinion). The stewardship of this issue should now be left up to him and his team.
Redeemer put a lot of Tim Keller's sermons (including the apologetics series for non-believers) free on iTunes podcast. Additional sermons and some of the transcripts are available here: http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/bio/timkeller.html and http://djchuang.com/keller/
For his preparation method: see http://www.scribd.com/doc/13385894/Preaching-in-a-PostModern-City and http://adrianwarnock.com/2009/03/preach-to-change-them-in-their-seats/ and http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/documents/reading_Keller_notes.pdf
I don't think it is fair to pressure Redeemer to give all their sermons free online. It costs a lot to maintain a church in Manhattan. They have been very generous in putting the sermons as free podcasts already.
Tim Keller is an amazing preacher: he is able to engage a very sophisticated audience, interacting with contemporary thoughts and cultures, through the use of intense biblical exposition, taking the audience into the love and grace of God-- his Christ-centered sermons are sprinkled with the power of the Holy Spirit.
Thanks for your thoughts, Alabama24 and Paul (and thanks for the links!). I agree with both of you with regard to your concerns:
Andrew - I think that I have come to see and appreciate your heart in this matter. I do not, however, believe that I need to impose this view on others. I think it clearly falls within the realm of Christian liberty.
So I do want to be clear - I'm not seeking to impose my views or pressure anyone (and I'm certainly not starting a campaign to raise the support of other users). I do, however, believe that this issue is detailed and nuanced and I don't believe that Redeemer has understood all of the downsides of their current approach. I think that there is an alternate method which will not present a cost burden to the church *and* increase the effectiveness of their global ministry.
I have therefore sent this email to Redeemer in reply to theirs:
Dear [name],
Thank you for taking the time to provide a comprehensive reply - it's much appreciated. And I am thankful that the sermons will be available to Redeemer for publication in other formats - this is good news.If you are happy to bear with me here, however, I believe that there are downsides of Redeemer's and Logos' proposed approach that may not be immediately obvious and were not discussed in my first email.Firstly, with respect to Logos' pre-pub offer model, I agree that this is an effective model for starting projects but my agreement is very much limited. The pre-pub offer model taps into our human desire to 'get in now before the price goes up' and this is an effective strategy in prompting humans to act. The problem, however, is that this model requires that the price then does actually go up and that's the wrong direction for the price if our goal is to see a large number of Christian men and women using and benefiting from the content. The underlying premise of the pre-pub model is that a user's reason for supporting for it is based on self-interest - it sets in them the expectation that no other user will receive the same good deal that they did - at least not until the content is on the bargain bin in many years to come - and therefore prevents any repricing of content that might be needed to maximise its use in the Christian community. On reflection this is not unlike Jesus' parable in Matt 20:1-16 (which would suggest that Christians should not be comparing what they get for their labour / money with other Christians) and this business model invites that very comparison and indignation should the product need to be repriced and therefore it prevents repricing (i.e. no one wants to pay $200 for something thinking that they're getting a great deal, only to discover that it's now $50). To my mind, then, the pre-pub model appears to be more like a secular commercial model than the giving and receiving that we see modelled in the gospel and for that reason I cannot personally endorse it.On a practical note I would also suggest that $200 is already too high a price for the sermons - the offer has been slow to fill - and that the future higher price for other Logos users will mean that it is largely unused and not available to many who would otherwise benefit from it. The alternate approach that I proposed (of inviting users to voluntarily cover the costs of production) would achieve the same goal of making the content available without a cost burden to either Redeemer or Logos but would provide Redeemer and Logos with the freedom to price the content as being free, a low price or to change the price as you see fit. I'm on record in saying that I'd dearly love for this to be free for the benefit of all, but there is also no reason that the content can't be offered at a much more reasonable price - $30, say - instead and still have the content widely used. And surely that should be Redeemer's goal in its sermon ministry, to see Tim Keller's sermons widely used for the glory of God? A lower price might also create more revenue than $200 (and higher), if creating revenue is one of Redeemer's goals.Secondly, I understand the elders' reasoning that the Sermon Ministry be self-supporting and I also do not want the church's ministry in the city to be hindered. I would, however, point out that I was not suggesting that the church bear the burden of the sermon ministry - I was suggesting another method by which the cost may be borne (and there are no doubt others). I was suggesting a new ministry - that a group of believers be given the opportunity to voluntarily bear the cost of the sermon ministry so that it can be made freely available to the world. I'd put it to you that this is important for two reasons. The first is that the imposition of a price on sermons will have greatly limited their use - without a price people download the sermon and listen to it, but with a price they are forced to make a decision - 'will this sermon be worth it?' - without any ability to have certainty of that prior to purchase (making them significantly less inclined to consume the content). Also, the price presumes a wealthy Western context in which $2.50 is a trivial sum, but there are Christian believers around the world who speak English and for whom $2.50 would be difficult or impossible to bear (and the copyright restrictions necessary to enforce payment prevents them from getting copies from others who could pay). Yes, they can benefit from the free sermons but if the free sermons were sufficient for all, why are the paid sermons offered to anyone? They must have value to believers or Redeemer would not offer them at all. This leads me then, to my second point - I believe that the Elders' decision about the sermon ministry is not wrong but is out of date. Tim Keller's primary ministry is certainly to NYC but through his books and free sermon ministry he also now has a global ministry for which he is now also responsible. I would therefore respectfully ask you and the Elders to look at other methods of avoiding a cost burden to the NYC ministry while not hampering this growing global ministry.Thanks for bearing with me - I hope that I have not come across as argumentative and if so I apologise as this is not my intention. I also acknowledge that Redeemer has freedom to act as it sees fit in this regard and on that basis will provide further input only if you invite it from me. Yours in Christ,Andrew
Why do our best ideas often come after pressing 'send', no matter how many times we review the email? As a quick follow up to the email above (without receiving a reply in the interim) I have also sent the following:
Sorry [name], having pressed 'send' I thought of a useful summary paragraph for my last email.As humans we are highly attuned to the problem of overutilisation (disappearing rainforests, congested roads, etc.) but are poorly attuned to underutilisation of resources (the benefit could be extracted from resources if only we could see the problem and work out how to address it). What I'm suggesting to you is that the online sermon ministry currently suffers from underutilisation and that the current/proposed approach for the transcribed sermons on Logos will result in underutilisation. Assuming that my hypothesis is correct, it would be easy to be satisfied that a number of people benefit from resources without ever realising that with a modified approach they could have benefited many more - possibly ten or even a hundred times as many.Thanks again,Andrew
Yes $200 is a lot, but it works out to a little over 16c per sermon so from that perspective I think it is reasonable. If you go to his churches website they charge $2.50 per sermon for an mp3 download. This makes around 16c per sermon sound even better I expect Redeemer Presbyterian will be getting their cut out of that 16c so I really dont believe Logos is profiteering from this project. Personally I would to like it at a lower price, I think most people would, but I don't think its an unfair price.
Any word on when the first part of this will be released? "Under Development" is pretty vague.
Thanks!
Actually, vague is the point. Logos knows that giving out ETA's too far in advance can cause headaches when "deadlines" aren't met. When the resource gets closer to shipping, you will receive an email with a tentative ship date.
Scheduled now for 02/08/2013.
