Tim Keller's work

Yes, Please.

[Y]

While his books are great, if we could get a sermon collection from him, that would be even better.

Yes!

+1

Now that they have their own publishing house (in Redeemer church), AFAIK, maybe they will be eager to publish in Logos, too.

Paul Immanuel said:

I have gained a lot from the books by Tim Keller: The Prodigal God, Reason for God and Generous Justice.  I recommend that Logos consider having them in the Logos format.  They are already available in Kindle. 

Thanks.

Paul

[Y] Absolutely, but don't forget Counterfeit Gods and King's Cross [;)].

 Yes - Counterfeit Gods and the rest

[Y] Agreed: just yesterday I was just here for Keller.

Some of his stuff is already in Vyrso.

I love his sermons.  The progress of pre-pub seems slow by the progress bar on the website.  DJ: Do you have insider info that it is coming out of pre-pub?  

Andrew Mackie said:

Is it just me, or is anyone else disappointed / annoyed / frustrated / angered by the $200 price tag of Tim Keller's sermons?

I hear what you're saying, but for me I look at the price and make a decision based on if I think I see that as value for money. For me, in this instance I do. In other instances, for me, I don't and I don't purchase. If I don't like the price, I don't purchase. I don't get angry about it.

I was under the impression that the sermons will be transcribed from audio, which is the reason for incremental release as this will take a lot of time. This being the case I had also presumed that this process would be costly. I can't find where I read that though. Can anyone else confirm?

Having said that, maybe the price is the reason for the slow progress. 

Andrew Mitchell said:

I was under the impression that the sermons will be transcribed from audio, which is the reason for incremental release as this will take a lot of time. This being the case I had also presumed that this process would be costly. I can't find where I read that though. Can anyone else confirm?

This was my impression too.  I think someone posted a copy of a typical Tim Keller sermon outline / notes in another thread and suggested this would be the case.

Andrew Mackie said:

On Tim Keller's side of the equation, these sermons are his digital exhaust. He was paid by the church to prepare the sermons and he gave them. Why would he expect to be paid for them again?

As already stated, if you go to the Redeemer website most of the sermon downloads require a purchase. I'm pretty sure this goes to supporting the church, not Keller. I wouldn't be surprised if the proceeds of this product also go to the church and not Keller. Even if they did, Keller is a very generous steward of God's money - he's feeding hungry people, not buying yachts - so I'm not concenred about this issue.

Andrew Mackie said:

On Logos' side of the equation, yes, there's a lot of work in preparing 1,223 sermons. But that's no reason for Logos to charge $200 in perpetuity as the sole vendor of Tim Keller's sermons.

You kind of made the argument for Logos. As an aspiring pastor I value this resource much higher than technical commentary sets for which I paid far more. Do I wish it was less expensive? Of course. But for a resource of this value and breadth I'd gladly pay this price or even more.

Andrew Mackie said:

If we did this to Wesley and Edwards they'd be turning in their graves.

Did I miss something? I think the pricetag for the Edwards collection I ordered is $900. Edwards isn't rolling over. You can get all those works free from Yale. But to get it into Logos Bible Software is going to cost. It's the same principle with Keller's sermons.

Matthew Hamrick said:

Andrew Mackie said:

If we did this to Wesley and Edwards they'd be turning in their graves.

Did I miss something? I think the pricetag for the Edwards collection I ordered is $900. Edwards isn't rolling over. You can get all those works free from Yale. But to get it into Logos Bible Software is going to cost. It's the same principle with Keller's sermons.

Thanks Matthew. There are two points here:

• You can get Edwards free from Yale. If I've understood the Tim Keller / Logos deal correctly, you won't be able to get Tim Keller sermons anywhere else at any price. And that means that Tim Keller's sermons will be limited to Logos users who elect to pay $200. If Edwards sermons were only available to Logos users who paid $900, then Edward's thinking would not have influenced a generation of preachers. And that, I think, would have him turn in his grave. I'm saying that Tim Keller's sermons are too important to locked down and be unused in this way.
• Yes, getting content into Logos Bible Software is going to cost. But it costs Logos users, not Logos - they don't proceed unless they have orders that cover the cost. I am suggesting a different approach - that users continue to cover the cost of turning free content into Logos content but do so as a form of generosity - to allow everyone - Logos user and not - to have access to a highly valuable free resource to be freely available to the world. I will happily be one of those people who contribute to the cost.

There are some things - air, water, the right to send an email, etc. - that are too important to charge their full 'value' for, because charging full value for them limits their use. It's like offering bibles to non-believers for $200 - the bible is definitely worth it but that doesn't mean they'll buy it. Tim Keller, Edwards, Spurgeon and the rest are Christian air - let the world breathe it for the glory of God, not the collection of $200 x a handful of Logos users. It's far too important for that.

fgh said:

It seems to me that you're arguing that for some reason Tim Keller doesn't have the same right to his own work as every other author has. And it sounds a lot like you want Logos to just steal it. I presume that wasn't your intention?

In that case it seems to me that your argument is either that Tim Keller should voluntarily give up his copyright, or that international copyright law should be changed. Neither of which is in Logos' power to do anything about. So why attack them?

Thanks for your thoughts, fgh. It would appear that my attempt to speak concisely in this forum has done me a disservice.

This was my email to Tim Keller's office:

I'm writing to express concern that the transcriptions of Pastor
Keller's sermons will be locked into the proprietary Logos format
and offered at such a high price ($200). I'd like to propose an
alternative approach.



In short, my concern is that Pastor Keller's sermons are too
valuable to have their use limited in this way. If, for instance,
Edwards', Spurgeon's or Wesley's sermons were only available via
Logos for a significant fee, generations of pastors would not have
been influenced by them. And I want to suggest that over time
Pastor Keller's sermons will be as important to the Christian
world if they are made widely available. This is Christian air -
everyone should be able to breathe it freely for the glory of God.



I would therefore like to suggest that:

• the transcription effort and the
  'formatting for Logos' effort are separated so that the
  transcribed sermons to be available by any format - web, PDF,
  etc., and
• the cost recovery for this work is done in
  a different way to Logos normal practice. What Logos
  currently does is invite Logos users to pre-order the sermons
  and the work commences when costs are covered. From that point
  on, however, Logos will charge all future users the same - or
  higher - price to access the resource. What I propose instead is
  that Logos users be invited to make a donation to cover the
  transcription and formatting work so that the sermons can be
  made freely available as a gift - and part of all base Logos
  packages.
  

I would also like to suggest the same approach
for the Redeemer sermon store - that a smaller number of people
make significant donations to allow the world to have unrestricted
access to them rather than limit their use by charging for each
sermon - the application of a fee changes the behaviour of those
would otherwise consume them.



On a personal note I'd like to thank you for the books and free
sermons - over the last two years they have played a significant
part in the Lord's transforming work in my life.

They have replied to say:

Regarding the sermon transcripts on Logos, they are only proprietary in that they are first
being formatted for use within Logos Bible Software, but they are not
going to remain exclusive. Having the transcripts made is a large and
costly undertaking which Logos has been licensed by Redeemer to
administer. The Logos pre-pub offer, which you've cited, is actually in
our opinion, a brilliant model for getting the project underway. Once
the transcriptions are created however, they will be given to Redeemer
for the discretionary use of the church. Redeemer simply does not have
the staffing to create the transcripts on our own. As Dr. Keller and
many of our staff are users of Logos software, we are thrilled about the
application of the sermons in their format. Their functionality is not
something we could reproduce. We are also excited to have the entire
library at our disposal once the work is complete. There really is no
limitation here, only what we see as a great opportunity. I apologize,
however that you've had insufficient information at your disposal to see
the full picture. We are still ironing out some details and so we
haven't made a comprehensive announcement. More will follow in the near
future.


As to the larger question of whether Redeemer should charge for
sermon recordings, the basic reason we do relates to the costs
associated with creating, maintaining and distributing the library
(personnel, equipment, office rental space, web-hosting, etc). The
elders of Redeemer decided from the outset that the Sermon Ministry
should pay for itself and not require funding from Redeemer's operating
budget that would hinder the church's ministry work in the city.


Related to that, you indicated that you are aware that we have made
over 200 sermons of Dr. Keller's, both old and new, available on our
Free Sermon Resource. We were careful to include sermons that would
cover the breadth of Dr. Keller's teaching. Listening to all of them
would give you the equivalent of what a Redeemer member would receive
over the period of five years.


We truly appreciate that your concern comes from an appreciation of
the ministry of Dr. Keller and Redeemer Presbyterian Church. I hope this
brief response will put things in a better light.

Thank you for your support.

I am considering whether to reply and if so what to say.

My email to Logos said:

Hello,



I'm writing to suggest an alternative model for producing public
content - content that is public domain (e.g. Spurgeon's sermons)
or the author makes freely available online (e.g. John Piper).



What I would like to see for this content is a model that allows
Logos users to 'give so others live' - to *donate* towards the
cost of producing the content in Logos format so that all future
Logos users can freely receive the content as part of the base
package.



The alternative - the status quo - is quite troubling to me, as it
would appear that Logos makes money from public content without
bearing any risk (as users to bear the cost of producing the works
through community pricing or pre-orders). And this means that
valuable public content is underutilised (as not everyone who
would benefit from the content can/will pay for it) for the sake
of making 'free' profit for Logos. I would suggest that it should
instead be spread widely for the glory of God. This is Christian
air - let us all breathe it.



As I believe Tim Keller's sermons to be important enough to be
widely used by Christians around the globe, I have also contacted
Tim Keller's office asking him not to lock his sermons into the
Logos proprietary format - to separate the transcription work from
the Logos formatting work so that the transcriptions can be made
available in other formats - PDF, web, etc. I have also put
forward this model of users volunteering to cover production costs
so that his sermons might be made freely available to all Logos
users.



Thanks for your time - if you have comments or questions I would
be pleased to discuss this further with you.



Yours in Christ,

Andrew

They have replied with:

Thank you for your email!

I have forwarded your suggestion to suggest@logos.com.

If you have any further suggestions we would love to hear them, you can email suggest@logos.com
 
Blessings!

fgh, if you still have concerns about my motive or approach I would be pleased to discuss it with you.

Thanks for your thoughts, Alabama24 and Paul (and thanks for the links!). I agree with both of you with regard to your concerns:

alabama24 said:

Andrew - I think that I have come to
see and appreciate your heart in this matter. I do not, however, believe
that I need to impose this view on others. I think it clearly falls
within the realm of Christian liberty.

Paul Lee said:

I don't think it is fair to pressure Redeemer to give all their sermons free online.  It costs a lot to maintain a church in Manhattan.  They have been very generous in putting the sermons as free podcasts already.  

So I do want to be clear - I'm not seeking to impose my views or pressure anyone (and I'm certainly not starting a campaign to raise the support of other users). I do, however, believe that this issue is detailed and nuanced and I don't believe that Redeemer has understood all of the downsides of their current approach. I think that there is an alternate method which will not present a cost burden to the church *and* increase the effectiveness of their global ministry.

I have therefore sent this email to Redeemer in reply to theirs:

Dear [name],

Thank you for taking the time to provide a
comprehensive reply - it's much appreciated. And I am thankful that the
sermons will be available to Redeemer for publication in other formats -
this is good news.



If you are happy to bear with me here, however, I believe that there are
downsides of Redeemer's and Logos' proposed approach that may not be
immediately obvious and were not discussed in my first email.



Firstly, with respect to Logos' pre-pub offer model, I agree that this
is an effective model for starting projects but my agreement is very
much limited. The pre-pub offer model taps into our human desire to 'get
in now before the price goes up' and this is an effective strategy in
prompting humans to act. The problem, however, is that this model
requires that the price then does actually go up and that's the wrong
direction for the price if our goal is to see a large number of
Christian men and women using and benefiting from the content. The
underlying premise of the pre-pub model is that a user's reason for
supporting for it is based on self-interest - it sets in them the
expectation that no other user will receive the same good deal that they
did - at least not until the content is on the bargain bin in many
years to come - and therefore prevents any repricing of content that
might be needed to maximise its use in the Christian community. On
reflection this is not unlike Jesus' parable in Matt 20:1-16 (which
would suggest that Christians should not be comparing what they get for
their labour / money with other Christians) and this business model
invites that very comparison and indignation should the product need to
be repriced and therefore it prevents repricing (i.e. no one wants to
pay $200 for something thinking that they're getting a great deal, only
to discover that it's now $50). To my mind, then, the pre-pub model
appears to be more like a secular commercial model than the giving and
receiving that we see modelled in the gospel and for that reason I
cannot personally endorse it.



On a practical note I would also suggest that $200 is already too high a
price for the sermons - the offer has been slow to fill - and that the
future higher price for other Logos users will mean that it is largely
unused and not available to many who would otherwise benefit from it.
The alternate approach that I proposed (of inviting users to voluntarily
cover the costs of production) would achieve the same goal of making
the content available without a cost burden to either Redeemer or Logos
but would provide Redeemer and Logos with the freedom to price the
content as being free, a low price or to change the price as you see
fit. I'm on record in saying that I'd dearly love for this to be free
for the benefit of all, but there is also no reason that the content
can't be offered at a much more reasonable price - $30, say - instead
and still have the content widely used. And surely that should be
Redeemer's goal in its sermon ministry, to see Tim Keller's sermons
widely used for the glory of God? A lower price might also create more
revenue than $200 (and higher), if creating revenue is one of Redeemer's
goals.



Secondly, I understand the elders' reasoning that the Sermon Ministry be
self-supporting and I also do not want the church's ministry in the
city to be hindered. I would, however, point out that I was not
suggesting that the church bear the burden of the sermon ministry - I
was suggesting another method by which the cost may be borne (and there
are no doubt others). I was suggesting a new ministry - that a group of
believers be given the opportunity to voluntarily bear the cost of the
sermon ministry so that it can be made freely available to the world.
I'd put it to you that this is important for two reasons. The first is
that the imposition of a price on sermons will have greatly limited
their use - without a price people download the sermon and listen to it,
but with a price they are forced to make a decision - 'will this sermon
be worth it?' - without any ability to have certainty of that prior to
purchase (making them significantly less inclined to consume the
content). Also, the price presumes a wealthy Western context in which
$2.50 is a trivial sum, but there are Christian believers around the
world who speak English and for whom $2.50 would be difficult or
impossible to bear (and the copyright restrictions necessary to enforce
payment prevents them from getting copies from others who could pay).
Yes, they can benefit from the free sermons but if the free sermons were
sufficient for all, why are the paid sermons offered to anyone? They
must have value to believers or Redeemer would not offer them at all.
This leads me then, to my second point - I believe that the Elders'
decision about the sermon ministry is not wrong but is out of date. Tim
Keller's primary ministry is certainly to NYC but through his books and
free sermon ministry he also now has a global ministry for which he is
now also responsible. I would therefore respectfully ask you and the
Elders to look at other methods of avoiding a cost burden to the NYC
ministry while not hampering this growing global ministry.



Thanks for bearing with me - I hope that I have not come across as
argumentative and if so I apologise as this is not my intention. I also
acknowledge that Redeemer has freedom to act as it sees fit in this
regard and on that basis will provide further input only if you invite
it from me.



Yours in Christ,

Andrew

Andrew Mackie said:

Is it just me, or is anyone else disappointed / annoyed / frustrated / angered by the $200 price tag of Tim Keller's sermons?

Yes $200 is a lot, but it works out to a little over 16c per sermon so from that perspective I think it is reasonable.  If you go to his churches website they charge $2.50 per sermon for an mp3 download.  This makes around 16c per sermon sound even better   I expect Redeemer Presbyterian will be getting their cut out of that 16c so I really dont believe Logos is profiteering from this project.  Personally I would to like it at a lower price, I think most people would,  but I don't think its an unfair price.