I need Help selecting a Seminary

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/366882#Comment_366882

Hello

I am serving in the overseas missions field.

I have Logos Bible study edition. so i may need to upgrade to the Scholar's Library. But I am unsure of the need.

I am thinking of Northwestern Seminary for a Bachelor of Theology in Biblical Studies or Bachelor of Theology in Christian Apologetics.

It most be a On-line only program. And of course the cost will be a very big issue.

Thank You Lee

Liberty University and Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary are regionally accredited and offer many full online "theology" degrees.

James Chandler

I agree with Lee, Liberty is a very good school and completion of a degree, can be done completely online.

Jim

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/367592#Comment_367592

Hello and thank you to everyone above, I have selected to go with Northwestern Theological Seminary. They are one of the only 100% on-line programs in my price range.

Now I must get focused to compplete this Bachelor & Master conbination program that I picked.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/368293#Comment_368293

Hello and thank you to everyone above, I have selected to go with Northwestern Theological Seminary. They are one of the only 100% on-line programs in my price range.

Now I must get focused to compplete this Bachelor & Master conbination program that I picked.

I noticed that NTS is NOT regionally accredited nor is it ATS accredited. They are able to grant diplomas only based on a state exemption as a religious entity. You know this right?

Now I'm not saying this school is not academically rigorous - however, depending on your reasoning for getting a degree this can cause problems down the road.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/368293#Comment_368293

Hello and thank you to everyone above, I have selected to go with Northwestern Theological Seminary. They are one of the only 100% on-line programs in my price range.

Now I must get focused to compplete this Bachelor & Master conbination program that I picked.

I would be cautious about this. I won't say that there is necessarily anything wrong with it, but I have a feeling there is something not quite kosher here. Take Josh's caution regarding accreditation seriously. This is part of my hesitation on this: On the one hand they claim that Christian organizations dealing in religious education don't seek the normal accredidation yet they also claim that they have accreditation. Something doesn't add up. Also, look at its affiliation with the "Worldwide Church of Jesus Christ". This sounds like something related to the Herbert W Armstrong group though when I search for an entry for it in Wikipedia, which has pages on many groups, I am given a list of articles which are heavily weighted toward the LDS. CAUTION !

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/368295#Comment_368295

Hello Josh, thank you i did not understand the above accrediting. The reason for the degree is that I am serving as a missionary and need to have a degree for visa in this country, but also i wanted more training.

Thanks Lee

Armin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/368313#Comment_368313

The reason for the degree is that I am serving as a missionary and need to have a degree for visa in this country, but also i wanted more training.

This makes it even more important that your degree is accredited. Be very careful with non-accredited programs. A non-accredited program does not necessarily mean that it is bad, but I doubt that your country will accept a non-accredited degree. There are enough diploma-mills around.

Armin

Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/368324#Comment_368324

As an overseas missionary, you may well be eligible for a number of scholarships that could significantly reduce the cost of admission to a more well-known seminary. I'm waiting to hear back from the admissions committee at Fuller Theological Seminary myself, and I know they have a fairly robust online curriculum. Gordon-Conwell is another that comes to mind. If money is the main issue, I'm sure there are ways to make it happen.

Sacrifice

Until you make a decision you can use the free seminary courses here:

http://thirdmill.org/seminary/

Cheez

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/368313#Comment_368313

Hi Lee, I'm not sure which country you are serving in, but do note that if you are working in a "closed country", they may not recognize a seminary degree for your attempt to get a visa. You'll need to find out.

Visa is a constant issue with us in the field, even with those of us who has postgraduate degrees. It's very dependent on the country...

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/368311#Comment_368311

look at its affiliation with the "Worldwide Church of Jesus Christ". This sounds like....heavily weighted toward the LDS

From http://www.northwesternseminary.com/Doctrinal.htm I would assume that NTS holds to a conservative, evangelical theology and that EDIT: calling the church in connection with NTS the "Worldwide Church of Jesus Christ" is meant to show their focus on global mission. For whatever reason, it seems important to this church to diplay the apostolic succession of their bishop /EDIT

However, the problem with degrees offered by this seminary may really be the lack of formal accreditation - see this discussion page, where the seminary president, "Bishop" Sarkela weighs in. Obviously, as he himself writes, this issue is different for ministers already working in an organization and intending to deepen their theological knowledge than for people who will need accredited degrees for future employment (or visa requirements as is the case here).

Donald G. Fisher

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/368313#Comment_368313

Hey Lee,

I was in Ethiopia for two years and our internet at the time was dial up. Having said that after we returned to the states I did my MA through Liberty which offered a decent education but in all honesty, it did not add much to my education after having completed a 4 year Bible College. It did take me a couple of years to complete while working full time. It is fully accredited and recognized but the one issue in Ethiopia is that those who were there teaching theologically also needed a degree in something other than "religious" studies. In other words, they were looking for people who could help the country through agriculture, medicine, engineering, or teaching non-Bible subjects. My main function was teaching IT but also did Bible. My wife was a nurse but also served at a mission's school. There are plenty of viable options for a seminary degree. Feel free to contact me if you'd like.

Blessings,

Don

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/368609#Comment_368609

Hello

I thank everyone above; I have looked into Northwestern Theological Seminary in detail. I have decided to attend and, have been accepted in their degree program.

NB.Mick Replied: Today 5:52 AM

From http://www.northwesternseminary.com/Doctrinal.htm I would assume that NTS holds to a conservative, evangelical theology and that reference to the worldwide church in connection with NTS is meant to show their focus on global mission rather than a specific organization calling itself "Worldwide Church".

I do agree with you.

Also Donald thank you, the visa status is based on Certificate in Teaching English as a Foreign Language. And having the Bachelor and Master is really more for my mission work and show a Degree if asked.

Thank You Lee

Armin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/368637#Comment_368637

... and show a Degree if asked.

I really want to caution you here. I don't know of any overseas country that accepts non-accredited degrees. I am a program evaluator with a big accreditation agency in the US and have worked for and with several government bodies around the world on accreditation issues. If you just want to learn something, get books. If you want to get a degree, study in an accredited program offered by an accredited university.

Armin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/368637#Comment_368637

I thank everyone above; I have looked into Northwestern Theological Seminary in detail. I have decided to attend and, have been accepted in their degree program.

Lee,

I didn't want to be the one to make a judgment on this program, but I must, in all candor, say that I think you are making a very UNWISE decision if you go with NTS.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/368724#Comment_368724

I'd be suspicious of anything called "Northwestern" with a Florida address.[H]

(spoken as a true North-westerner sharing a state with Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/368749#Comment_368749

I'd be suspicious of anything called "Northwestern" with a Florida address.

(spoken as a true North-westerner sharing a state with Logos)

That had occurred to me as well though there is the consideration that Northwestern University (a part of the Big 10) is located in Illinois. In defense of Northwestern University it might be noted that it was at one time a part of the Northwest Territories.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/368753#Comment_368753

Everyone knows 'northwest' means 'the panhandle'.

Philana Crouch

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/368757#Comment_368757

Choosing an accredited program is very important. If something were to happen and you had to drop out of the program for a period of time and decided to switch schools, it's a real possibility that your credits might not be transferable. You can end up losing a lot of money if that happens, and be required to retake courses. It's best to attend an accredited school, many of which do have a distance learning option.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/368759#Comment_368759

First if you understand that i am not in the U.S.A. and may not be for many years, so i can only do on-line course for 100% of my program. 2nd any program I do must be paid by the group supporting me, so I have very limited funds.

After looking many on-line Seminary programs I have picked NTS.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/368757#Comment_368757

Everyone knows 'northwest' means 'the panhandle'.

The next time I make pancakes I'll remember to grab the northwest.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/368767#Comment_368767

First if you understand that i am not in the U.S.A. and may not be for many years, so i can only do on-line course for 100% of my program. 2nd any program I do must be paid by the group supporting me, so I have very limited funds.

After looking many on-line Seminary programs I have picked NTS.

Apparently you had already made up your mind prior to posting. I'm wondering why you asked. I simply don't see any benefit to pursuing a program which may have little or no value. The information regarding this "school" stinks to high heaven.

Bill Moore

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/368774#Comment_368774

First if you understand that i am not in the U.S.A. and may not be for many years, so i can only do on-line course for 100% of my program. 2nd any program I do must be paid by the group supporting me, so I have very limited funds.

After looking many on-line Seminary programs I have picked NTS.

Apparently you had already made up your mind prior to posting. I'm wondering why you asked. I simply don't see any benefit to pursuing a program which may have little or no value. The information regarding this "school" stinks to high heaven.

Lee, I completely agree with George. I have completed theological training through both distance education and on-campus seminaries and have spent more time than I care to admit researching degree programs. Life is short, and even a small amount of money is to be valued. NTS will be a throwing away of both, in my opinion. I don't mean to appear harsh, but I really wish you would reconsider and choose a legitimately-accredited alternative. A seminary that promises a PhD with four to twelve months of study, regardless of a student's previous qualifications, reveals that it is not legitimate.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/368707#Comment_368707

If you just want to learn something, get books. If you want to get a degree, study in an accredited program offered by an accredited university.

[Y]

This is 100% correct.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/369847#Comment_369847

Even a seminary like Luther Rice (which is nationally accredited with TRACS) would be highly preferred over NTS - BTW LR can be done fully online and they are realistically affordable.

Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/369848#Comment_369848

Gordon Conwell has a new online degree program (http://www.gordonconwell.edu/online/index.cfm) . GCTS has excellent reputation and I would think it is preferable.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/369855#Comment_369855

Gordon Conwell has a new online degree program (http://www.gordonconwell.edu/online/index.cfm) . GCTS has excellent reputation and I would think it is preferable.

I agree that GCTS is a great school. However, the OP needed a seminary that offers full online degrees - not partial ones like GCTS offers. A student at GCTS still is required to take intensive campus residency courses. In fact, ATS accredited seminaries are not allowed to offer full online degrees. This is why Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary purposely dropped them. It's not like they need ATS anyway, they are regionally accredited (SACS) - which is the gold standard of accreditation. The OP was also looking for something affordable - GCTS online costs $1,300 a course plus misc. fees. That is not cheap.

Paul-C

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/369874#Comment_369874

For info, I think ATS are holding a meeting in June to discuss and vote on changes which could allow accredited institutions to offer full online degrees. It might be worth the OP watching that space as it could open up a raft of opportunities if it's voted through (although I'm not sure how much lead-in time seminaries would need to offer a full distance learning degree.)

Ronald Quick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/369897#Comment_369897

I agree - accreditation can be very important.

The college I chose after high school emphasized their accreditation. Although it meant nothing to me at the time, I really appreciated it when I went on for my Master's degree and every credit I earned transferred.

The only time where accreditation is not needed is if you plan on using your degree within an organization that accepts the education from that college. For example - my denomination has long distance classes where a person can earn a degree that will be accepted by any church in my denomination - but outside it is basically meaningless.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/369897#Comment_369897

For info, I think ATS are holding a meeting in June to discuss and vote on changes which could allow accredited institutions to offer full online degrees.

This is great news! Can you provide a link to where you saw this information posted? I went to the ATS site but didn't find anything.

Paul-C

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/370203#Comment_370203

Josh, if you look at the ATS home page, you'll see down the left hand side links to various documents which are the "Final Draft Proposed Revised Degree Program Standards". I think ATS are voting on whether to adopt these new standards.

When I opened up the link for the B-MA (Professional) degrees, take a look at the following section, on page 4 of 6.

I suspect the proposed change which may allow schools to offer full degrees online is covered by the text I have made bold and underlined at the end of this section. I haven't checked to see whether the same is true of MDiv degrees,

I guess it's arguable whether, if this proposal is adopted, it will make full online degrees mainstream amongst seminaries (since it is couched in terms of being an "exception"), however it seems like the option could be there nevertheless.

B.3.1.3 Because professional MA education expects regular and substantive student-
145 faculty interaction to achieve the stipulated learning outcomes, this interaction requires
146 that at least one-third of the required credits for the degree shall be completed at the
147 main campus of the school awarding the degree or at an extension site of the institution
148 that has been approved for professional MA degree-granting status. An exception may
149 be granted if a school can demonstrate how its educational design and delivery system
150 accomplishes the learning outcomes associated with residential theological study.

*EDIT* - It looks like the same proposal is true of MDiv degrees too, if you refer to paragraph A.3.1.3. of the program standards for MDiv degrees,

Thomas Hanna

There are some serious concerns with this school. In addition to the accreditation issue (which is always a red flag, plus you need to realize that any non-accredited degree earned carries absolutely NO weight, making it little more than a pretty piece of paper). But in addition, these are some serious concerns taken directly from their website:

[quote]

Mission Statement:

"To reach every nation through forming ministry alliances and through opening new branches of our Church Ministry and Educational Institutions (University and Seminary) throughout the world." (http://www.northwesternseminary.com/Doctrinal.htm)

While they go on to discuss the Great Commission and the making of disciples, their mission statements itself says NOTHING about:

Jesus
Discipleship or Evangelism
Educating the student
Theological/ Educational excellence

In fact, the entire emphasis is essentially "we exist to expand and make more branches of our school." That is shady, and not only makes we question their theological and spiritual motives, but also makes me question their dedication to the student. In fact, it sounds like an attempt to simply siphon off money. Notice how they never list their professor staff? Noting the numerous grammatical errors throughout their website, I further question their commitment to educational excellence. These are people offering graduate-level degrees. If they expect their students to be able to write at a graduate level, they should be able to at least grammar-check their website (which also looks extremely low budget).

And then there is this:

[quote]

NO Preset Conventional Tuitions. Seminary applicants simply make a Love Offer selection, on their online application, which can save them up to 98% when compared to total costs of many traditional Degree programs. (http://www.northwesternseminary.com/index.htm)

So... they are not accredited, they are not focused on education or discipleship, and they have no set tuition? You just... give an offering and get a degree? Uh huh...

[quote]

There are NO costs for textbooks... These savings are made available through our online library.

Since many of your leading works necessary for graduate and post-graduate theological work are not available in digital form (of the latter, many are not even in English, which is why most theological PhD programs require a basic proficiency in French and German), this also raises serious questions about the available material itself.

[quote]

For those who qualify, the NTS-AADP accelerated graduate online degree programs allows students to earn Masters and Doctorate seminary degrees in as little as just 12-WEEKS to ONE year*, in some cases by writing a Thesis or Dissertation only.

Not possible with any level of credibility. So yeah... this place is a money sink, and they are just looking to take your money and provide nothing of substance in return.

AVOID THEM.

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/370962#Comment_370962

I have experienced three different schools and while they were different in some respects, they were alike in many others. The bottom line is what you are looking for the most.

If you care most about getting professional pedigree, then pick the most reputed seminary within the environment where you want to work. Get a good baptist seminary if you intend of being a good baptist pastor, etc.
If mostly, you want to pay a seminary to confirm you into what you want to believe, pick one that has an agreeable (fundamentalist, conservative, liberal, denominational, ecumenical, take your pick) statement of faith and whose contact persons tell you everything you want to hear. As long as you are a good boy or girl, you'll have a "blessed" experience.
If mostly, you want to become scholarly, pick the schools with the best scholars, best research facilities and lots of colloquiums and others top-notch events.
If you really want to become more like Christ, then ask about what is being done about discipleship and evangelism and don't settle for broad answers like "through interactions in and out of the classroom, students have opportunities to grow blah blah blah". Many will give you the "of course" type of answer: if there is something tangible, then you should be able to get very tangible answers. Moreover, beyond the "we believe in the Bible" of course answers, try to detect whether there is really the fear of the Lord and unconditional surrender to Him through His Word.

But then of course, this also depends on you. I would assume that many would also say "of course" to #4. This is why I said it depends on what you want the most. Or better, what you really want the most.

Hope this helps...

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/370968#Comment_370968

I don't know ... I looked at choices 1 to 4. 'More like Christ' apparently can't be done in 1 to 3. So probably that rules them out. It's true that Christ did only discuss evangelism and discipleship. I assume the folks in 1-3 missed that.

OK ... looks like #4 must be the correct answer.

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/370973#Comment_370973

My point is NOT that one or more purpose cannot be concurrently sought but that typically, one dominates the others. This is why I spoke of what one wants the most. For instance the concerns and emphases of the academia are quite different from those of discipleship.

Thomas Hanna

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/371052#Comment_371052

My point is NOT that one or more purpose cannot be concurrently sought but that typically, one dominates the others. This is why I spoke of what one wants the most. For instance the concerns and emphases of the academia are quite different from those of discipleship.

Have to disagree with this rather vehemently. If we are called to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind, then scholarship cannot be divided from discipleship. If Paul calls us to be skilled laborers in the word, then effective training cannot be divided from evangelism. After all, Paul was a noted scholar in his day, having studied the Hebrew Scriptures under Gamaliel, and his letters constantly refer back to the Hebrew Scriptures which he studied. Likewise, the disciples studied at the feet of Jesus for three years before the Great Commission and, while they were sent out to preach the word under Jesus' tutelage, they always returned back to examine their results. In other words, Jesus WAS their seminary.

A good seminary merges scholarship and application. Biblical academia and discipleship are concurrent; to undermine one is to undermine the other. Let's be careful not to promote anti-intellectualism among the Christian body, as there is already far too much of that as it is.

Bill Coley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/371176#Comment_371176

My point is NOT that one or more purpose cannot be concurrently sought but that typically, one dominates the others. This is why I spoke of what one wants the most. For instance the concerns and emphases of the academia are quite different from those of discipleship.

Have to disagree with this rather vehemently. If we are called to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind, then scholarship cannot be divided from discipleship. If Paul calls us to be skilled laborers in the word, then effective training cannot be divided from evangelism. After all, Paul was a noted scholar in his day, having studied the Hebrew Scriptures under Gamaliel, and his letters constantly refer back to the Hebrew Scriptures which he studied. Likewise, the disciples studied at the feet of Jesus for three years before the Great Commission and, while they were sent out to preach the word under Jesus' tutelage, they always returned back to examine their results. In other words, Jesus WAS their seminary.

A good seminary merges scholarship and application. Biblical academia and discipleship are concurrent; to undermine one is to undermine the other. Let's be careful not to promote anti-intellectualism among the Christian body, as there is already far too much of that as it is.

[Y]

Philana Crouch

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/371176#Comment_371176

My point is NOT that one or more purpose cannot be concurrently sought but that typically, one dominates the others. This is why I spoke of what one wants the most. For instance the concerns and emphases of the academia are quite different from those of discipleship.

Have to disagree with this rather vehemently. If we are called to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind, then scholarship cannot be divided from discipleship. If Paul calls us to be skilled laborers in the word, then effective training cannot be divided from evangelism. After all, Paul was a noted scholar in his day, having studied the Hebrew Scriptures under Gamaliel, and his letters constantly refer back to the Hebrew Scriptures which he studied. Likewise, the disciples studied at the feet of Jesus for three years before the Great Commission and, while they were sent out to preach the word under Jesus' tutelage, they always returned back to examine their results. In other words, Jesus WAS their seminary.

A good seminary merges scholarship and application. Biblical academia and discipleship are concurrent; to undermine one is to undermine the other. Let's be careful not to promote anti-intellectualism among the Christian body, as there is already far too much of that as it is.

AMEN!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/370973#Comment_370973

I will admit Francis got me to thinking. I had read (not sure where in Logos) that the early growth of Christianity was mathematically limited. Meaning, if you took the list of bishops later on (the basis of many of the maps of early Christianity), took a range of believers in a community, and then worked backwards, you'd come up with a range of about 2-3% growth rate per year. Even if double that, 20 believers would produce 1 extra believer per year. Of course the situation shifted dramatically with Constantine.

That line of thinking also led to the question of just how much emphasis 'discipleship' and 'evangelism' was in the very early church. We know Jesus sent out the pairs. Also the great commission, which has an iffy textual history. And we also can deduce pairs going out from the early Jerusalem and then Antioch churches. But best I can remember, there's really not a lot of emphasis on it in the various epistles. Considerably more emphasis on how to live, deal with other believers, and so on.

This sounds pretty 'theology-ish' on the forum, but I was very disappointed that a gentleman asked concerning seminaries, made his decision, and then was 'strung up'. I too have opinions concerning seminaries and degrees, but the gentleman's efforts wherever he is located are far more important.

Bill Moore

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/371187#Comment_371187

. . . .

This sounds pretty 'theology-ish' on the forum, but I was very disappointed that a gentleman asked concerning seminaries, made his decision, and then was 'strung up'. I too have opinions concerning seminaries and degrees, but the gentleman's efforts wherever he is located are far more important.

"Strung up"? Respectfully, I disagree. Trying to help a fellow believer avoid a serious mistake is more compassionate than merely letting him go without raising the concern.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/371176#Comment_371176

A good seminary merges scholarship and application. Biblical academia and discipleship are concurrent; to undermine one is to undermine the other. Let's be careful not to promote anti-intellectualism among the Christian body, as there is already far too much of that as it is.

Video on SWBTS and its purpose in evangelism and academia.

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/371225#Comment_371225

Read Luke 14:25-34 and tell me how many seminaries you know that helps its students practice this kind of discipleship.

Then read George Barna Growing True Disciples for facts on the obvious head-in-the-sand assumptions that pervade biblical education in seminaries and churches in relation to actual discipleship.

Let's not compare how and what the apostles learned from the Lord Jesus to the kind of education that is provided today. This is borderline sacrilegious. There is a vast difference between what is considered a biblical scholar today and the kind of people 2 Timothy 2:2 speaks about.

I am not interested in an arguing match. My sole purpose is to help the well-meaning but perhaps inexperienced brother or sister out there so that they may learn to look past the nice sounding slogans and discern what is substantial from what is hollow.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/371245#Comment_371245

Then read George Barna Growing True Disciples for facts on the obvious head-in-the-sand assumptions that pervade biblical education in seminaries and churches in relation to actual discipleship.

I found this interesting article on Barna's statistics. In the article Barna's stats are viewed from a "flipped" perspective. For instance, Barna states, "1/3 find church boring." However, this actually means 2/3 find church not boring! Barna's conclusions are sometimes misleading.