4.5c Beta 1 - Program Setting - Doctrinal Choice ?
Noticed Logos 4.5c Beta 1 Program Settings has Doctrinal Choice with three options:
Wondering how Doctrinal Choice affects Logos 4 usage ?
Keep Smiling [:)]
Comments
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Wondering how Doctrinal Choice affects Logos 4 usage ?
This is such a tempting question. I must behave myself. I must behave myself. I must ...[:#][:P]
Behaving myself, there's a momentous event implied - the Great Schism of 1054 has been resolved.[Y][:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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What do you choose if you are decidedly not Protestant or Catholic? [:O]
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Guess it is a good choice as catholic does mean universal ….. I left it as Catholic but as person born into the Lutheran church and now considering myself anglican, I am not sure if catholics would want me in their camp or push me into protestant circles..hehheheheh
-Dan
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Wondering how Doctrinal Choice affects Logos 4 usage ?
Ditto. Wondering why this matters. There is no product functionality that I know of that would or should behave differently depending on Doctrinal Choice. Perhaps it's for some future envisioned feature? Maybe it's for Faithlife? But I can imagine a lot of people wouldn't want to reveal that info to other Faithlife users.
Wondering whether maybe they are just trying to collect the data to find out what percentage of their existing user base self-identifies as Catholic so as to know how much effort to put towards Catholic resources. But if that's what they're doing, it's the wrong way to go about it. Existing user base would be very skewed based on what resources are already available.
Also it appears that the powers that be at Logos still haven't learned from all your advocacy, MJ, that there are other Christians in the world -- lots of them -- besides Catholics and Protestants. And once you get people identifying their Doctrinal Choice in the software, you open up a huge can of worms. If indeed, as may very well be the case, the overwhelming majority of their existing users and target future users are either clearly Protestant or Catholic, then perhaps rather than Undecided they should put "Other". And they should give people the option of not answering the question. "Undecided" doesn't have that connotation -- it seems to mean rather that you haven't decided where your doctrinal position lies, not that you simply haven't gotten around to answering the question or would prefer not to.
I also noticed that hovering over the question mark icon next to that option does not bring up tool tips help, as all the other ones do. If they had that text, this is where they could explain "whatever you choose here will remain private" or "you don't have to answer this question: if you leave it as Undecided that means you prefer not to answer it" or whatever is appropriate.
Dan Francis said:Guess it is a good choice as catholic does mean universal ….. I left it as Catholic but as person born into the Lutheran church and now considering myself anglican, I am not sure if catholics would want me in their camp or push me into protestant circles..hehheheheh
Also many Mennonites/Anabaptists consider themselves another "third way" and wouldn't identify as Protestant either, since Protestants persecuted them during the Reformation.
This whole thing could get very dicey. I really question the wisdom of adding this option as just a binary choice. Even census forms and seminary applications which ask you to identify your denomination (and list a dozen possible choices) often fail to include a good option for everyone. You certainly need a catch-all "Other" regardless.
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A believer, Christian.
Blessings in Christ.
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Dan Francis said:
I am not sure if catholics would want me in their camp
You're quite welcome in my favorite "supra-denomination" - ACELO (Anglican, Catholic, Church of the East, Lutheran, Orthodox). Of course, my family tree is a banyan - weak on bloodlines, strong on inclusiveness.[;)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rosie Perera said:
I really question the wisdom of adding this option as just a binary choice.
My guess based on absolutely no information which is much more fun when you are guessing. I wonder if they are responding to the complaints that certain texts are treated as canonical. I would love it if we had a "Canon" setting. However, there is a huge flaw in the current choice - how do our Jewish users identify themselves?
Rosie Perera said:powers that be at Logos still haven't learned from all your advocacy, MJ
Must be something in the Bellingham air that keeps them soooo provincial.[;)] Let's require that they spend weekends in Vancouver B.C., San Francisco and Seattle in an ongoing rotation. I know 2 great Russian Orthodox Cathedrals in San Francisco, a Nestorian group in Seattle ... Rosie you have to fill in the Vancouver slot.[:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Wondering how Doctrinal Choice affects Logos 4 usage ?
Yes, that's definitely something that should be explained.
- Will it trigger the display of lectionaries? But then they need to discern further.
- Will it drive the links to ressources like ANF/NPNF as well as some bibles, where "protestant editions" and "catholic editions" exist? But this means, I - as an evangelical - need to identify as a Catholic to have them work in my Catholic Scholars package (but then why use settings? Logos knows my library!)
- Will it help focus the homepage content? But then it should be a part of Homepage settings - after all, we would expect the other parts of the software to work regardless of Doctrinal Choice. I can't believe it's intended to say hide search hits about e.g. Jesus' brothers from Catholic users. Moreover, even if the setting was intended to improve on the meaningfulness of such unclear things as "rank" in search results, it should be clearly explained which features are affected and how. Maybe a hard-core Lutheran is researching the first Vatican Council?
One aspect of doctrinal choice is its multi-dimensionality. A binary choice not only will leave out the "neither" (which may definitely not be undecided, but e.g. Eastern Orthodox) and the broad ranges within the two groups, but also the large overlap of both groups and additional dimensions such as liberal versus conservative (an evangelical protestant may identify much more with a conservative Roman Catholic on a large number of aspects than both do with the liberal wings of their own denomination and vice versa), of "ancient ressourcement" versus modern versus post-modern, of leaning towards determinism or human freedom of choice etc....
Thus I'd prefer Logos to explain the feature to us and give it another, meaningful name that clearly indicates what is going on here.
Have joy in the Lord!
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NB.Mick said:
Thus I'd prefer Logos to explain the feature to us and give it another, meaningful name that clearly indicates what is going on here.
[Y]
For now, I will leave the question unanswered—However, even that is an answer = "I don't know what I am" [8-|]
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Here in the D.C. region we dozens of parishes that are Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox. I don't believe that we have any congregations that belong to the Assyrian Church of the East (Nestorians).
I would say that I and my fellow Orthodox believers are most assuredly decided and most definitely are neither Catholic nor Protestant. And neither are the Oriental Orthodox or the Assyrian Church of the East.
And Bellingham should be aware of the Orthodox tradition, they keep publishing primary source material from the Fathers of the Church [:D]. And besides, there is even an Orthodox community in that sleepy little town of Bellingham [:D]
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As the way they have it here; it is a huge mistake, and it can only anger people. Most people know what faith tradition they belong to. Therefore, undecided just doesn't work.
The case is even more complex if you toss in the groups who are Christian but do not believe in the Trinity (please no theological debate here on the proper definition for the term Christian) like Mormons. They too do not consider themselves Catholic or Protestant.
If they would like L4 to operate differently for different faith traditions, then Logos should say how the program would behave different; not ask the question if we are Catholic, Protestant, or Undecided.
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Wondering how Doctrinal Choice affects Logos 4 usage ?
I am going to go out on a limb here and take a guess. [:)]
My guess is that this will effect things like which advertisements show up on the home page. Perhaps also which books tend to show up in discovery on the home page.
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
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I call myself Protestant, (some say cult, others say sect) but I do not want my choice to affect anything unless I specifically tell it to. I also purchase products that interest me, no matter which label they have on them. I receive email alerts for just about everything Logos has.
Most of this is speculation, but it would be good to know the reason why the choice was given, the options and the limitation.
Logos, how about an explanation!
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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alabama24 said:
My guess is that this will effect things like which advertisements show up on the home page. Perhaps also which books tend to show up in discovery on the home page.
That was my thought too. I bet it is sent to the Logos servers to be saved there too for the purpose of email marketing.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Todd, it needs further explanation. If that is the case, give the user the option to have all delivered. Even though I cannot afford it, I would like to have all of the academic resources that Logos sells on my computer.
I buy books by interest, no matter what Publishing House, or Denomination it comes from. Graduate research often requires you to research a subject from various angles without concern as to denomination. An authors/writers work is judged based upon what he/she brings to the table.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Lynden Williams said:
If that is the case, give the user the option to have all delivered.
If Todd is right, "undecided" would be that choice.
Lynden Williams said:it needs further explanation.
Agreed, but there is no reason to get worked up over this yet (not that you are). This is beta software, and we should not expect full explanations for everything just yet. I trust that there will be an explanation before this ships.
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alabama24 said:Lynden Williams said:
If that is the case, give the user the option to have all delivered.
If Todd is right, "undecided" would be that choice.
Lynden Williams said:it needs further explanation.
Agreed, but there is no reason to get worked up over this yet (not that you are). This is beta software, and we should not expect full explanations for everything just yet. There should be an explanation before this ships. My guess is that Bob will reply in 5, 4, 3...
I agree that we should not get worked up over this, but people do get worked up if they believe that a company is prying too much into their personal lives. This setting simply breaks all good programming standards and all good communication skills. It is simply too vague. If this setting is for the homepage, then it should be with the rest of the settings on the homepage. If it is for marketing, then it needs to be labeled as a marking option.
Because it is so vague, people are going to write stories on what this setting is for. And Logos needs to have their hands slapped for putting something out that is so vague that no one can figure it out.
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There should be an option of 'Nunya'
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I don’t want the use of any resource denied me. If the answer to that question ever affects any functionality in Logos 4 [or even in their advertising] then maybe they need an answer of ‘YES’ to turn on all options. When I am doing a search I want to see ALL hits.
[On the other hand I am not doing a weekly talk so I can take the month or more to review all hits – The few times I need to know that I am only seeing so called ‘safe’ resources I can use collections]
[It may be ‘fun’ after they turn this on – set ‘doctrine’ refresh home page, run search; reset ‘doctrine’ re refresh home page, re do search; re re set ‘doctrine’ re re refresh home page, re re do search – etc]
[IMHO ‘undecided’ is too powerful a word to use where the person means ‘I will not tell’] [And also thank you to all the Beta testers]
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tom collinge said:
If it is for marketing, then it needs to be labeled as a marking option.
Agreed. In any case, we need to know what affected by changing that setting.
As an aside, though I am Presbyterian, I was getting a lot of marketing of Catholic products
sent to me, which were worded as if I had a Catholic background. I can
only guess that this is because I bought several "Catholic" resources.
I wonder if Logos was getting push-back from making these assumptions
and decided that they needed someway to identify which users get which sales pitches.MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Todd Phillips said:
As an aside, though I am Presbyterian, I was getting a lot of marketing of Catholic products
sent to me, which were worded as if I had a Catholic background. I can
only guess that this is because I bought several "Catholic" resources.
I wonder if Logos was getting push-back from making these assumptions
and decided that they needed someway to identify which users get which sales pitches.I don't think this setting is for marketing. They have this info on the website, and they have this type of info for those of us who entered it into our profile page. the location of this setting tells me that it changes the behavior of L4 somehow. The question is how does it change the behavior of L4?
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This setting is a prototype that wasn't supposed to ship, has no effect on the software, and will be removed in Beta 2. (It slipped into Beta 1 by mistake; I had been hoping that no one would notice, since it seemed likely it could generate a multi-page discussion on the forum... [:)])
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Perhaps by 2015 there will be other options and offerings: Orthodox, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Scientist, Zen Buddhist...
I propose adding "all of the above" as an option for good measure.
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This is fun! For the first time in my life I'll be 'officially' Catholic! [:D] Perhaps I should download the beta before you people protest so much that they take the chance away from me. [:P]
MJ. Smith said:there is a huge flaw in the current choice - how do our Jewish users identify themselves?
Indeed! While I'm more than happy to be Catholic, some Christians may be more or less annoyed with the restricted choices -- but that's nothing compared to forcing a Jew to say that he's 'undecided' whether he's Catholic or Protestant. That's really insensitive.
It seems to me it's high time Bob bring in some consultant and have everyone attend a couple of seminars on cultural and religious sensitivity.
Rosie Perera said:Wondering why this matters. There is no product functionality that I know of that would or should behave differently depending on Doctrinal Choice.
What about the 'ranked view'? See the post I happened to write yesterday at http://community.logos.com/forums/p/50025/369691.aspx#369691. Given that these two 'features' turned up at the same time, is it that far fetched to suspect they're connected?
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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I was going to say the same thing. There is a systemic issue at Logos as it relates to faiths outside the evangelical world. There have been too many 'oops' like this one to say it was a one time thing.fgh said:It seems to me it's high time Bob bring in some consultant and have everyone attend a couple of seminars on cultural and religious sensitivity.
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
This setting is a prototype that wasn't supposed to ship, has no effect on the software, and will be removed in Beta 2. (It slipped into Beta 1 by mistake; I had been hoping that no one would notice, since it seemed likely it could generate a multi-page discussion on the forum...
)Well, it was the only "visible" new feature in beta1, and we needed something to talk about in the beta forum. So I thank you for that.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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I thought the converstion was quite calm.. LOL
Lets be real though - who cares anyway.. I dont - I will read anything and try and glean the ear of wheat from the tares..
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
seemed likely it could generate a multi-page discussion on the forum...
Where's my like button? [:D]
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
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fgh said:
What about the 'ranked view'? See the post I happened to write yesterday at http://community.logos.com/forums/p/50025/369691.aspx#369691. Given that these two 'features' turned up at the same time, is it that far fetched to suspect they're connected?
It is pretty far-fetched. [:)]
While rank is new on Mac, it's been on Windows for a long time, and it has been added to increase Mac parity. (In fact, Mac already sorted by rank in Tile mode; this change just allows you to view the rank, and sort by it, in Details mode.) The implementation is exactly the same on the two platforms, hasn't changed recently, and is based purely on textual matching, not any sort of doctrinal filter.
The "Doctrinal Choice" setting code was deleted from the Logos 4 codebase last week (before any beta testers noticed it).
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
I had been hoping that no one would notice
Probably a futile wish. There are too many eyes in the Beta program. Someone will always tell.
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:it seemed likely it could generate a multi-page discussion on the forum...
It does not take much to prompt this. See, BillS has already searched for a "like" button [:D] We love a good discussion, even when we have no idea what we are talking about [H]
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Hi ya’ll. Sorry I am late to the party, so what are we talkin’bout? Hey, anyone seen George? I seen his Fiat in the parking lot when I came in.....
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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MJ. Smith said:
Tempting to laugh out loud from questionable interpretations [;)]
Personally a bit surprised by Program Setting addition considering Logos propensity to minimize Program Setting choices.
From a technical perspective, wonder about useful Logos 4 Program Setting addition(s) or change(s) ?
Personally wish Resource Panel Background could be extended to all of Logos 4 on Mac and PC with some high contrast color choices (e.g. white text on black background plus dark brown text on yellowish background). For high visibility reading, consider color combinations for road signs, especially warnings (hence my desire for a yellowish background that is easier to read for many hours). Also many forum smilies have black and yellow coloring, which is easy for human reading.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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OOPS!! my bad, I meant Fiat Schwinn, sorry George.....[:$] , [img]http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/042.gif[/img] .
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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Jack Caviness said:
We love a good discussion, even when we have no idea what we are talking about
shouldn't "even" be "especially"?[:P]
And I'm close enough to consult with Logos employees on diversity and cultural sensitivity ... I'll just ask for free resources for life (for me and selected friends) in exchange.[H]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
This setting ... will be removed in Beta 2
You're going to take away my chance to be a Catholic? [:'(][:P]
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:It is pretty far-fetched.
While rank is new on Mac, it's been on Windows for a long time
And how was I supposed to know that? I've been reading these forums pretty much daily for 20 months, and as far as my memory serves me, I've never heard of a Rank column on Windows, nor can I remember seeing it on the Feature parity list. And none of the other users in the other thread seemed to know it wasn't new either.
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:it has been added to increase Mac parity
While I'm certainly glad you're working on that, I have to say I'd prefer that you concentrate on the things we complain about all the time, rather than things none of us seems to have missed, or even been aware of.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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MJ. Smith said:
I'll just ask for free resources for life (for me and selected friends) in exchange.
MJ, would you please include me in your list of friends. [:D]
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Lynden Williams said:
MJ, would you please include me in your list of friends.
I was thinking the same thing. [;)]
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From release notes:
New Features- Program Settings
- Added application setting for “Include Deuterocanonical Books.” This setting does not currently affect any data. (See this thread.)
Okay, Logos - whose's Deuterocanonicals? Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Slavic Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican ... and what are the LXX-based (+ a bit) Jews of Ethiopia to do? And what about the Russian sect that limits its canon to Revelation?MJ. Smith said:I wonder if they are responding to the
complaints that certain texts are treated as canonical. I would love it
if we had a "Canon" setting.I think I win the prize assuming horseshoe rules apply - closest to the stake.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 - Program Settings
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Bradley posted some more information regarding this setting in this thread: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/50177.aspx
[quote]
tom collinge:My question is what Deuterocanonical Books are included? Different faith traditions within Christianity use different deuterocanonical books.
All of them.
As noted in the popup help for that setting, this only affects Bible Facts tools (e.g., Biblical People) when data (from deuterocanonical books) is available.
No such data is currently available, so this setting has no effect. However, we anticipate adding this data in a future update to those resources (I don't have an estimate on the timeframe); this would possibly coincide with a reverse interlinearisation of the NRSV Apocrypha (see http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/514417-create-a-reverse-interlinear-for-nrsv-deuterocanon).
If and when we have sufficient data from different traditions of deuterocanonical books (a big "if"), this setting may be made more fine-grained.
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Doesn't this thread count as a mild slap? <smile>tom collinge said:Because it is so vague, people are going to write stories on what this setting is for. And Logos needs to have their hands slapped for putting something out that is so vague that no one can figure it out.
Honestly I also would like a clarification as to what this effects.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
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In a way, yes. IMHO, Logos needs to do some training concerning the faiths of others. This type of programming (offensive language to the non-Roman Catholics and to the non-protestants people) should never of happened in the first place.TCBlack said:Doesn't this thread count as a mild slap? <smile>
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I like the denomination option.
I hoping that by setting it to protestant,
1. I won't have to see the apocrypha listed as scripture in some resources.
2. I won't have to see any pictures of jesus or catholic shrines on the front pages of logos.
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Catholic. Thanks for making Logos functional for Catholics. Much appreciated.
Steve Ray (www.CatholicConvert.com)
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