Your input needed: Faithlife Study Bible

Interesting that I saw this offer today and almost grabbed it, then stopped.

I'm new to Logos so I'm still overwhelmed with all that I have. My thought was, "Do I really need this when I haven't even put to use all the other resources that I have?"

I used to be the type where I'd grab something if it was free. Then, reality set in and I realized how little time I had for all these free offers in general, not just Logos-related.

Again, being new, I don't think I'm qualified to answer all your questions.

But let me ask you one...

When I was ready to get deeper into Bible study, I poured through the Logos site, reading everything I could.

Not everyone is like that. So if I'm talking to someone about Logos for the first time and they've never heard of you, what is one URL I could send these people to get a starter version that doesn't overwhelm them with everything Logos has to offer? And maybe that includes the FSB.

This would be a link I could e-mail to someone that helps them bypass the home page and is dedicated to people who "heard about Logos from a friend, but I have no idea what to do first."

And maybe that site has a video that walks them through what they should do next.

By the way, living in Whatcom County, I thought about visiting. But your virtual tour was so good I feel I've already had a great tour.

Bob Pritchett said:

...right now it’s free through March 2014 (with coupon code “FREE”).

First reason for rejecting FSB: Many offers appear with "free until <date>." It reminds me of a pusher's offer--"the first fix is free." My Bible is my most personal possession. When my Bible full of notes wears out, it takes years to transfer all of them to a new one. That is what attracted me to Logos Bible Software; all my notes would be in all the Bibles in my library.

Second reason for rejecting FSB--community notes. It would be like the offer of a community toothbrush. I want my own notes, not those of others who have their own views. Fred Smith, founder of FedEx, said, "Keep an open mind, and others will throw garbage in it."

One more happy Logos user,
Jack

Bob Pritchett said:

March 2014 (with coupon code “FREE”).

Sounds interesting but How do i get the coupon code?

Thanks Sam West

My reservations to this point:

1. Unsure of the theological underpinnings of the contributors of study notes (reformed / arminian, complementarian / egalitarian, etc.) 
2. Faithlife / Biblia interaction is confusing to me. Facebook groups are more familiar to most folks and more accessible.
3. However, I do like the features and UI of the app.

What matters most in a study Bible is the quality of the content. That is way more important than the quality of the technology, but I fear that Logos hasn't paid enough attention to this factor. Students need to be able to trust their study notes - I'm not sure that there's enough scholars and pastors that users know and trust who are endorsing and writing for the FSB.

Into Grace said:

Bob,

Why do you keep calling Faithlife "free". A credit card is required with an agreement to an upcoming annual subscription. A person does not own anything. After the trial runs out you start charging an annual subscription. Should they decide to opt out, they have nothing. Logos would have a lot more credibility if they were truthful. Your program is free for nothing.

You do? I didn't give a credit card I don't believe. Also, FREE for a term has been the way it's been marketed from the beginning. Directly from the FSB web page you can find this:

• 
  
  

  Subscribe

  Use your coupon code to get the FSB for free through March 2014.

Not sure how much MORE TRUTHFUL they can be than telling the truth in the parameters of the product. FREE THROUGH MARCH 2014 is full disclosure in my opinion.

Tom Castle said:

 

Into Grace said:

Bob,

Why do you keep calling Faithlife "free". A credit card is required with an agreement to an upcoming annual subscription. A person does not own anything. After the trial runs out you start charging an annual subscription. Should they decide to opt out, they have nothing. Logos would have a lot more credibility if they were truthful. Your program is free for nothing.

You do? I didn't give a credit card I don't believe. Also, FREE for a term has been the way it's been marketed from the beginning. Directly from the FSB web page you can find this:

• 
  

  Subscribe

  Use your coupon code to get the FSB for free through March 2014.

Not sure how much MORE TRUTHFUL they can be than telling the truth in the parameters of the product. FREE THROUGH MARCH 2014 is full disclosure in my opinion.

I understand what you are saying, Tom

My point is with the word, "free" Why not say, "no cost until March 2014.

Tom Castle said:

Just to be sure, I went through the process again to see if I had to enter anything... Clearly, from the screenshot, you can see that no payment is due and I was not asked for a CC.

If I recall correctly, I had to provide a credit card when I created the account a few months back.

Into Grace said:

Tom Castle said:

Just to be sure, I went through the process again to see if I had to enter anything... Clearly, from the screenshot, you can see that no payment is due and I was not asked for a CC.

If I recall correctly, I had to provide a credit card when I created the account a few months back.

 

I have signed up several people and never once did I have to enter a credit card.

Tom Castle said:

It is actually FREE for the next 9 months.

That only takes you to March 2013 so adding 12 months it's FREE for the next 21 months. 

Tes said:

I agree with you.

I second that.

Into Grace, I know you're upset about the nontransferability of Logos Academic items.  But don't misplace your frustration and see everything that Logos does as underhanded.  It's been made clear from the start that the Faithlife Study Bible would be subscription based, and that you get it free for a period of time with the promo code.

First, 'free until 2014' can mean two things:
  - An annual subscription is free for 20 months but the 21st begins the charge.
 OR
 - Any users signing on before March 2014 have free use of it period.

Doesn't matter for me; I downloaded it. Decided I don't need the regurgitated evangelical theology that re-writes the text, and put it in the hidden resources where I hope it will stay.

My only concern now is I hope 20 months from now it doesn't wake up and start charging my credit card.

Into Grace said:

Bob,

Why do you keep calling Faithlife "free". A credit card is required with an agreement to an upcoming annual subscription. A person does not own anything. After the trial runs out you start charging an annual subscription. Should they decide to opt out, they have nothing. Logos would have a lot more credibility if they were truthful. Your program is free for nothing.

 

Bob,

If I offended you or anyone else with what I stated above, I apologize. As a Christian I am accountable to God and others for what I say.

In Christ

Bob Pritchett said:

We know that some free mobile Bible apps have had as many as 40 million downloads. With a great study Bible, media, Bible dictionary, devotional content, and more, the FSB is an even more useful tool – and it is also free.

Remember, you are VERY late to the game and net new adoption is rare and difficult. You're no longer trying to get people to adopt something new (a different challenge), you're trying to get them to convert. Conversion is difficult... and, frankly, the free subscription model vs the free "ownership" model is a serious barrier to conversions. More savvy thinkers may understand that the "ownership" model is as much a subscription as your model, but the vendor handles it and it "feels" more free (LOL). 

Your content is better, features new and exciting, and the opportunity for expansion and growth is fantastic. In a head to head competition that looks at what you get for what you pay for, you win... until. You see that plenty, if not most of your competitors provide a translation that is widely adopted for free, and you ask $4.99. A fantastic price without a doubt, but why should a user convert from free access, doing 80% of what they want in the existing app, to pay? Also remember that there's a very good chance that they have a community around them that already use the free-free app. So conversion requires evangelists with a strong community and communication around the platform you're trying to encourage conversion towards.   

Another challenge: you're "competing" against non-profits with a mission to get the Word into people's hands at as low a cost as possible. As a business, you have the higher value, more attractive product, but you have to convert people from "free" to "some-undetermined-future-subscription-price" (perception, not necessarily reality... consumers aren't use to doing business with Logos!). 

Bob Pritchett said:

How can we tell people outside our existing Logos user base?

You need to find the evangelists for this product, not the Portfolio base package... people who will add no more then a hundred dollars in resources over a couple years and be excited about it. 

The product offering is muddled and complicated. Simplify and focus message. 

Bob Pritchett said:

What would we need to say / do / offer to reach the people you go to church with? Have you already told them? Why or why not?

I've had in depth discussions with leadership at my church and they've seen it as "yet another portal" or "yet another Facebook" and they're having a tough enough time managing multiple media platforms as it stands today. . . I've tried explaining how it is different and can be complementary, but first impressions and the majority of content is around trying to be a community product. 

N.B. they have NEVER seen it as an entry level electronic bible study competitor. This is a marketing/message problem!

Bob Pritchett said:

The FSB is our biggest content project ever, and we have a lot of marketing effort coming up. But we started with our existing user base, and have been surprised at how quiet the response (and sharing with others) has been. I think there are some community pricing titles that get more buzz! [smile]

I must say that I LOVE the content myself. I love the UIX for the commentary/bible dictionary; I think it should eventually replace the Logos mobile app experience. 

One issue: you started with "keep it quiet" and so I largely have kept it quiet. 

Another: again with the muddled product offering and future, and again with the difficulty of conversion... constantly get the "here's what I use" and no one I've talked to is looking for something else (sometimes something more, but not enough that they're looking for something else).

Bob Pritchett said:

Why? Is it that FSB isn’t targeted at our core customers? (Even if you don’t want a study Bible, have you checked out the Lexham Bible Dictionary?) Are we not describing it well? Is the message lost among our other communications? Does the product not seem right for your friends?

You are not describing it well. I don't see how this fits in the continuum of bible study/reading software you sell. 

Bob Pritchett said:

I’d appreciate hearing your thoughts, as well as feedback on the FSB itself.

I actually have high hopes for FSB if you can find the right model and get the conversions you need to gain momentum. 

Truth be told, I would LOVE to be the product manager for this product! Having done product management/marketing of this kind of work for things I don't have near that amount of passion for, I suspect the biggest (internal) issues are related to the huge focus on building more and more content to sell to Logos users -- predictable ROI, easy upsell, and minimal risk... why invest in the low end with small returns, high cost, and high comparative risk? That's going to require absolute clarity of vision and evangelism on your part and some muting of the Logos Base Package drumbeat. I don't think this has to be at the expense of the Logos user market at all, but I constantly see you trying to sell $500 in bible software to people who are currently happy with free. They need to understand what they're missing, give them a viable entry point, and then you can take people up the value chain. 

There's also, I think, untapped synergy between Logos, FSB and Proclaim. You could also stand to better partner with some of the community platforms out there (not FB, but like PCO and CCB). 

All this and I'm guessing you don't want a software professional's feedback, but the "man on the street" Logos user! I hope this is helpful. Feel free to contact me via email if you prefer.

Here is my 2 cents. (If I have any credibility left [:$] )

"There is nothing new under the sun" Book of Ecclesiastes.
Copy the successful business model used by Apple software developers. Create
two Faithlife applications, one free and one premium. The free edition would be
limited so potential customers can test it and fall in love with the features
and decide to buy.

The premium edition would be a one-time charge. The market
does not support annual subscription type software. People want to own products;
this is how the Apple and Android market work. Successful software developers make
money by volume selling. If a product is great, and continues to get better
over time, more and more will join and the positive rating will follow. Who
would not want the Faithlife application once it's improved for say, a one-time
price of $9.99? Once Logos sells several thousand copies, they break even and it
turns profitable; this includes additional new customers for the flagship product,
Logos Bible Software.  

In Christ!

For what it's worth, Bob:

1.  I'm not sure of the source of the information or its theological leanings.  Unknowns like this make it very difficult to trust it.  If it's purely factual information or diagrams only, the distrust decreases.  Yet, I have a study Bible to help me in those times that I don't have time to get into my Logos library and dig deeper, like during sermons or other teaching times.  So maybe perhaps the idea of something like this being instantly available might be burdensome for the person trying to use it during those times; outside of those, its use is probably eclipsed for the reason I shared above.

2.  Subscription service?  Like nearly everyone else,  I want to pay for it and own it forever, that's when ownership occurs.

3.  How can it have notes and community notes but we can't in the Android app?  I feel like a faithful user of Logos has been set aside in this case and replaced by what your own priorities.  I would think you would perfect what you have before adding to.  The Android guys says its still months before we will have this feature in the app.  Sorry for the rant, but you asked for my thoughts.

DMB said:

Am sure you'll get a lot of input.

But for me, the $30/year subscription cost meant 'don't get involved'.  Usually when I plug in a resource, I want it to be a long-term go-to solution.

Thinking about this some more, and already being solidly 5-figures into Logos, the subscription is actually pretty peanuty (by comparison). So I suppose I haven't crossed the 'subscription' model yet. I do subscribe to JBL but some years yes, some no.

Later: I downloaded the free version. It did download immediately. I'm studying in the syriac Luke and on opening the study Bible it popped to where I was studying. Scanning down, it's a typical study Bible (easy to quickly read and get the key points). But I also notice when the going gets rough, like most of today's study Bibles, it waters Jesus down to middle-class palatability. I suppose that's ok for the group intended; certainly not my call anyway.

Bob, I think DMB's statement regarding the Jesus of the FSB reflects my views, without going into details.

Bob Pritchett said:

 

For years, users have asked us to make a “starter version” of Logos Bible Software that they could share with friends who might not be ready to make a larger investment in Bible study resources.

The Faithlife Study Bible is our attempt to meet this need. We’ve made a huge investment in the Faithlife Study Bible; it is our largest editorial project by far. And right now it’s free through March 2014 (with coupon code “FREE”).

We are trying to make the FSB as accessible as possible: it runs on smart phones, tablets, iOS/Android, in Logos 4 on Mac or Windows, and can even be accessed via http://Biblia.com. Our hope is that it will be a great blessing to many people in the church, reach many people we aren’t otherwise serving, and eventually return its development costs and a profit to us through the small number of those new users who decide to invest in a larger library or other digital Christian content at http://Vyrso.com, etc.

We know that some free mobile Bible apps have had as many as 40 million downloads. With a great study Bible, media, Bible dictionary, devotional content, and more, the FSB is an even more useful tool – and it is also free.

How can we tell people outside our existing Logos user base?

What would we need to say / do / offer to reach the people you go to church with? Have you already told them? Why or why not?

The FSB is our biggest content project ever, and we have a lot of marketing effort coming up. But we started with our existing user base, and have been surprised at how quiet the response (and sharing with others) has been. I think there are some community pricing titles that get more buzz! [smile]

Why? Is it that FSB isn’t targeted at our core customers? (Even if you don’t want a study Bible, have you checked out the Lexham Bible Dictionary?) Are we not describing it well? Is the message lost among our other communications? Does the product not seem right for your friends?

I’d appreciate hearing your thoughts, as well as feedback on the FSB itself.

Thanks!

-- Bob

 

Here is my 2¢ (and most of it has been said before)

1. Subscription model
2. Limited canon
3. Theological position (Way TOOOOOOOOOOOO conservative!!!!!!!!!)
4. Do not know anything about the authors.  
5. (This could also be part of number 4 above.)  Creditably of the authors NOTE: (This is just for me), authors MUST have a PhD after their name.  None of the "Major Contributors" that I looked up have a PhD.
6. Do not know who wrote what part of the study bible (author's name should be linked to what she/he wrote somehow).
7. It is linked into yet another social media website - not going to use another social media site.  
8. I still do not trust Logos with my notes/personal data after (1) loosing so much of my notes from L3 to L4, (2) Being forced to upload my sermons in L3 (had to set the option every time I added a sermon, if I forgot - everything was again uploaded to Logos), and (3) having to tell Logos not to put my stuff on their website numerous times (sermons).  (FYI...Because of #3 - I have more trust with Facebook and Google in keeping my personal information quite.)
9. For the mobile device (Android) Why does a Study Bible need to where I am at (GPS) and also read and write to my contacts? 

Dominick Sela said:

Your point about author credibility is an excellent one, I find when books come out I search for them in my Logos library to see what credible references cite them; this can be extremely useful, and as we know there are some PhD's that no one credible would ever refer to!

I did get a glimpse in my mind after reading your post:

Matthew, PhD

Peter, PhD

Paul Of Tarsus, PhD, DDiv

We offer application for doctoral degree in Theology at Alexandria University ... In their first year of study, candidates are called "Early Church Neophytes". Upon successful completion of all coursework with at least a 3.0 grade point average, they move into their dissertation phase and are called "Early Church Newbies". Once degree is awarded, their PhD bestows the title "Early Church Father", and we publish their dissertation manuscript at our Nile (not Amazon) Marketplace. Framed copy costs 2 shekels, in scroll form it is 1 shekel.

It goes on and on.....

Bob, to sum up what I have read, people do not like the subscription method, and people do not trust the authors (Something that is very important if you ask me).

I agree. Any Jesus will suffice.

Peter Covert said:

Gary Butner said:

I agree. Any Jesus will suffice.

 

Are you sure? 

There is a train of thought that Jesus was a homosexual because he had a sexual relationship with John - the disciple whom Jesus loved.  I personally believe that good scholarship can refute this concept; "any Jesus" cannot.

All of my other study bibles have names that I know and trust - why should this study bible be any different?

I was being sarcastic. I personally believe in a highly defined Biblical Christ, and not an idol.

I linked to it from my group blog, which has a good number of readers outside your traditional market base. [;)]

I've found it useful so far as I've read through Genesis, and I tend to have the resources it links to (DDD, IVP collection, AYBD, etc.)

However, I have a number of concerns myself, which reflect my own biases.

1. Subscription model- I'm highly unlikely to subscribe to anything like this, unless it were frequently updated with relevant things to me. As my graduate work was in Semitics, I spend most of my time in the OT, which tends not to be the focus of many people here, so I don't have high expectations in that regard. I generally don't like subscriptions; I don't have cable, and subscribe to exactly two magazines and one newspaper. My wife and I are both students and likely to remain so for the next few years.
2. Theological position. I prefer my study Bibles to be up front about their biases, and then focus on scholarship, not dogmatic theological interpretation (as I find in the ESV Study Bible notes. Gen 1:1 being Exhibit A). Give me the data and the options, let ME make the theological judgments. I haven't seen enough of the FSB yet to see whether this criticism applies.
3. Credibility of the authors. Given my #2, it's important to know who the authors are and where they're coming from. I much prefer PhDs from respectable universities than ThDs from Podunk (insert ridiculously specific Protestant denomination here) Theological Seminary.

Bob, 

I think you should hire Mike S. to promote the product and turn him lose.  I do not know him but his earlier reflections were spot on, in my view.  

Also, I dislike the subscription model.  

Thanks Logos.  UR doing a great job.