Logos Is Too Expensive

Joel, welcome to the forums. I doubt you are that much in the minority.

But the details are important. I have the OL simply because it had a specific resource no one else had at the time, along with some of the Logos tools. Had no need for 'scholars' etc. So Logos saved me money. Quite affordable for what I wanted.

Then there's the bottom 3 packages. Again hard to say. Is everyone like you? I don't really know (not joking).

Rich DeRuiter

I'm sorry to say that something is simply not right with this world. I understand the fact that you have to make a profit in order to keep your feet on the ground, but charging over $600 for a beginners package seems a bit out of line.

If you don't think it's worth it, don't buy it. Really. Maybe Logos isn't for you. It may not be for everyone.

That said, there's a reason that Logos prices are higher than some of their competitors, and that has to do with outstanding customer service, highly tagged and even cross-tagged resources, and a research environment (for studying the Scriptures and other materials) that is unparalleled. I have some books on my Kindle that were dirt cheep. I'd much rather have them in Logos for 3X the price, because they would be so much more usable to me in Logos.

Another way to look at these is to take one of the packages you're considering and only look at the cost of the resources in that package you want (don't even count the value of the resources you wouldn't buy). Add up the cost of those in hard copy or in some other Bible software package. For me, the cost analysis told me I'd have a substantial savings buying one of those high end packages. But it may not turn out that way for you.

the first four software packages are so useless. (I.E. Christian Home, Bible Study Library, Leaders Library, and Original Languages

I started out purchasing separate resources that interested me since they had a super sale on at the time. Eventually I moved to the Original Languages package. While the OL needs some supplementing in grammars and lexica (notably BDAG [don't open your bible study program without it] and HALOT [you could conceivably to with this since BDB is still quite useful]), it really isn't a bad starter package. I wouldn't mind seeing them remove the TDNT and putting BDAG in its place. Anything lower than OL is not for someone who has training in biblical studies in my opinion. If you start out with OL, you will get credit for what you already own if you upgrade—especially if you pick up the phone and call a sales rep. Many have complained about the high cost of Logos resources, and I wouldn't mind getting them a bit cheaper myself (well, I'm human, aren't I? Don't answer that [:)]). What you get, however, is well worth the price, and if you take advantage of Logos' offers and Community Pricing you can save some money compared to what you would otherwise pay.

Thanks for the reply, it's good to hear someone else's perspective on the matter!

I think this is my biggest problem ... Are Christians here to make lots of money through ministry, or help other Christians grow in their faith?

Perhaps I sound a bit harsh, but I have become progressively frustrated by so many of the so called 'Christian Businesses' that are charging an arm and a leg for their products. I've heard all of the excuses before, such as limited distribution, or a small buyers market, but these couldn't be further from the truth. The Christian market is one of the largest individualized markets in the world! There are plenty of people out there that are willing to purchase items like these, and distribution companies would be glad to offer competitive prices to anyone who will give them business. I think many of the Christians out there are stuck in the mentality that for some strange reason Christian products are supposed to be more expensive than secular products. It's almost like most Christians are accepting some kind of 'Persecution Tax' that elevates the prices of their goods and services. Well, I'm happy to tell you all that there are millions of eager Christians in the world that are dying for more ways to grow in their faith, but unfortunately there aren't a lot of ministries (or companies) out there that are willing to supply these needs at a reasonable price. To give you an idea of what I mean, I have included a few examples of some of the so called ministries out there that are gouging their customers . .. JVIM Ministries charges an average of $25-$40 PER DVD even though they sell tens of thousands every week. Rose Publications sells a single Powerpoint DVD for $40 covering only one topic, regardless of the fact that there are thousands of Homeschooling families who would love to have such a wonderful resource ... Jeremiah Films, Prophesy In The News and Exploration Films charge between $20-$40 for an individual DVD (Almost no exceptions in all three cases) ... and of course the biggest perpetrator of them all is Logos Bible Software... charging $150 for a basic Bible software package including no more than a Few Bibles, References and Commentaries ... most of which you can find for free on any eBook website!

I'm sorry if I sound bitter ... I guess I'm tired of being taken advantage of by my so called brothers and sisters in Christ.

As far as I'm concerned, value doesn't play into this ... I would feel taken advantage of if I paid $600 for any software, let alone Bible Software.

Please tell me if I'm way off base here ... but I'm sure there are many of you out there who have experienced the same thing.

I think this is my biggest problem ... Are Christians here to make lots of money through ministry, or help other Christians grow in their faith?

We really aren't talking about one Christian helping another. We are talking about a Christian business which needs to make a profit in order to be able to continue in business and offer the products they have chosen to produce. If they can't pay the help, the rent, the utilities, etc. and come out with a few $$ left over they won't be around a few years (or less) down the road.

As I mentioned in my previous posts ... there is a difference between paying the bills and charging too much for a product.

There's nothing wrong with making money in a Ministry, but there is such a thing as taking advantage of your customers.

As I mentioned in my previous posts ... there is a difference between paying the bills and charging too much for a product.

There's nothing wrong with making money in a Ministry, but there is such a thing as taking advantage of your customers.

I'm sorry to hear that you apparently feel they are "taking advantage." I think they are simply being wise businessmen. How much experience do you have in business?

Wow, you sound pretty defensive there fella ... do you work for Logos or something?

Kevin Maples

Joel,

I don't know how much you have used Logos, but I believe you definitely get what you pay for. I didn't purchase it for a long time because I couldn't afford it. But now that I am a user, I believe that every penny has been very well spent. If all Logos offered was digital books, then it would be way over priced. But what you are buying are not just digital books, but an amazing multi-platform software system that allows you to use the books like never before. I am constantly blow away as I learn new features in Logos.

I would encourage you to give it a try. If you are unhappy you can always sell your books for a $20 transfer fee.

Also, I think if you were aware of all that Logos provides in terms of support and service, you would not consider their software overpriced at all.

Again, you get what you pay for.

Best wishes.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

That being said it is also the most expensive software available!

Welcome [:D]

Concur Logos is expensive plus has many more resources available for purchase on Logos.com and Vyrso.com so more money can be spent building a digital library using Logos Bible Software; much more than any current competitor.

Thankful for 196 free resources in my Logos library from Vyrso.com plus some more free Logos resources. Logos started giving away Vyrso eBook's near Thanksgiving in 2011. Noticed Vryso.com now has 8,629 eBooks available for purchase, which can be used on mobile devices and Logos 4. Vyrso resources are digital resources from a variety of publishers. Logos 4 includes Vyrso resources when indexing so search can find them.

Thankful for Logos resources purchased a decade ago being updated for use in Logos 4 without needing me to buy them again, which includes a number of resources no longer available for purchase per publisher request. Along the way, personally have upgraded my base package from Scholar's to Silver, then Gold, and later to Platinum. With Master's Library Builder purchase last year, the Portfolio upgrade is currently a bit much for me; do have a wish list with Portfolio resources that are not in my Logos library, but wish lish total is less than upgrade.

Thankful for many of my licensed Logos resources now being available for use in iOS, Android, and web browser (Biblia.com) without needing to buy them again, which has included a number of resources being added for mobile use through Logos negotiations with various publishers.

Thankful for many free software releases, which have added a number of features, including personal books in Logos 4 that allow me to freely expand my Logos library by converting docx files. While looking for free online commentaries noticed a number of comments about substantial quality variations.

Thankful for high quality Logos resources. While building a 1901 ASV Personal Book Bible using public domain text, comparing free text with Logos ASV 1901 resource found many more typographical errors in the free text; had a couple typographical errors to report to Logos, which will be fixed. My appreciation for tagging added by Logos has increased.

Thankful for Logos Academic pricing, which offers discounts for students, especially when Logos Bible Software is required for courses.

Thankful for Logos Community Pricing that allows user community to bid on public domain resources. When a community pricing item has enough bids to cover estimated production cost of high quality Logos resources, a closing date is established. If enough additional bids are placed to cover 100 % of production costs, then the closing amount can be lower for all bidders, which has happened a number of times.

My favorite Logos 4 feature is visual filter highlighting; wiki has => Examples of visual filters that shows screen shots with Logos Greek Morphology visual filters being used in Greek and English resources, which have appropriate tagging added by Logos.

The Logos business model covers software development costs, mobile access, and Logos cloud servers with resource purchases.

I think this is my biggest problem ... Are Christians here to make lots of money through ministry, or help other Christians grow in their faith?

We really aren't talking about one Christian helping another. We are talking about a Christian business which needs to make a profit in order to be able to continue in business and offer the products they have chosen to produce. If they can't pay the help, the rent, the utilities, etc. and come out with a few $ left over they won't be around a few years (or less) down the road.

Am aware of a Bible Software competitor that has been acquired by a different company since the competitor essentially ran out of funds. Considering discounted pricing recently offered for a combined version upgrade ($ 19.95), personally am wondering about the competitor's future since a substantial number of upgrades will be needed to fund development improvements and ongoing operations.

At times, also wonder about cash flow at Logos due to many projects currently in progress.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Wow, you sound pretty defensive there fella ... do you work for Logos or something?

If you're addressing me, the answer is 'No." I'm just a long-time customer.

Rich DeRuiter

As I mentioned in my previous posts ... there is a difference between paying the bills and charging too much for a product.

There's nothing wrong with making money in a Ministry, but there is such a thing as taking advantage of your customers.

For the reasons I stated above, I don't believe Logos charges too much, and usually feel like I'm getting a bargain. If you feel differently, that doesn't really bother me, but it does seem out of line to suggest that Logos is taking advantage of their customers. Maybe you should come to 1313 Commercial Ave, Bellingham, WA and ask some questions about their costs, and profit margin. That way you could make an informed decision about whether they are taking advantage of their customers, or not.

Second, you seem to keep referring to Logos as a ministry. It's a business. It serves people in ministry, but it is a business. If you don't like the way they do business, don't buy their product. There are stores and restaurants I think charge too much for their products. I don't go to those places. For all I know, some of those businesses are owned or run by believers. What I do know is that if their prices are high enough to lose customers, they'll eventually either change their practice or go out of business. The same will happen with Logos.

I'm quite satisfied with Logos' pricing, as you probably already might have guessed as are thousands of other customers. Sure, I'd rather have everything and pay nothing for it, but I'm not upset about paying a fair price for a quality product.

As for public domain material: get it from the public domain. Read it in PDF, or eSword, or wherever. If you don't need or want it in Logos, don't buy it. But I don't think it's fair to expect Logos to offer for free what costs them hours of time in tagging and proof-reading, to make a resource fully functional in the Logos environment.

Let me say it one more time: if you don't like the price, if you don't think it's a good value, don't buy it.

I appreciate all of the comments from everybody, even though most of them seemed somewhat bias. [:P] (Kidding!)

I think the most quoted suggestion 'if you don't like it don't buy it' is probably going to to be the advice I choose to take.

Thanks for the response all the same!

Paul N

Joel, this isn't the first time this has ocurred on the forums, but it seems from the way you worded your initial post you meant this in a strongly worded e-mail privately to Logos. You wrote as if you were writing to Logos yet posted it here on the forums.

Were you looking for public discussion? Trying to figure out the heart of your initial post.

(EDIT) - ah, looks like you answered my post while I was typing mine. I spoke too soon!

Dan Francis

I too am in no way affiliated with Logos other than being a user for several years. I will admit Logos is expensive (some are almost as expensive). Logos does a great job of bringing many products to publication in a relatively timely matter, with very extensive reference tagging going many works quickly and efficiently. It is by no means an ideal piece of software but it is one of the best pieces out there for Biblical study. It is usually competitively priced when comparing copyrighted resources, and indeed when items are in prepublication they are a great bargain. Lets look at a favourite one of mine.

New Interpreter's Bible

Hard Cover retail $799 (Amazon Pricing $503.31)

Software Retail $799 (Amazon Pricing $473.30)

Logos New Interpreter's Bible (12 vols.) $479.95

This is not even the fairest comparison, since while you may do quick searches with the Abingdon software (Folio is it's core engine ), it cannot be run without the CDROM being in the drive and it is really little more advanced than a PDF reader. The software barely runs on systems after XP (a patched version was released, but most owners of the software have been trying to have it phased out since the turn of century, since it has been sold from microsoft, in the last year maybe the new owners will put more work in it, but even Abingdon has seen the writing on the wall and refused to put their new Bible dictionary in it preferring to release it in a browser compatible base (with a registration card asking several questions about which Bible software you use most). Logos runs on Mac, Windows, with somewhat limited mobile applications (still get many great fears and most of your library) for iOS/Android and web browser access from anywhere with Biblia.com. Logos allows you to use dozens of different Bible versions, NIB CD has NIV(with deutroconaical books from NAB) and NRSV only.

As you can see it is competitively priced and may not unfairly be compared with calling the NIB CD like a mass paperback version, compared to Logos as a leather-bound edition with gilded pages. I am glad there are various pieces of software out there, I do think Logos is a bit more expensive but will say it is well worth it in my mind's eye.

-dan

Wes Saad

Dan,

How about my favorite comparison, from an area where I think Logos is vastly overpriced: public domain works. Jonathan Edwards 2 volume set in Logos: $119.95. A competitor: $9.99.

I've never quite figured out the Logos pricing structure. Take works in community pricing. Users pledge to pay enough to cover costs of bringing it into the platform. Doesn't even leave CP until costs are paid. Then it heads to pre-pub where users pay more, yet still get a discount. By this point, new commitments bring money over above the cost of producing the resource. Then the resource is published and the price goes up again, typically several times more than in CP. I understand there are still costs associated: servers to host the content, developers to write the software, customer support, etc, etc, meaning the cost for these things roll into the resource (the software isn't free; we just don't pay for it directly). Nonetheless, the profit margin has to be quite large, particularly for these public domain works.

Other companies have the same expense needs for developers, servers, support, etc, yet manage to sell public domain resources at less than a tenth the price.

Donovan R. Palmer

That said, there's a reason that Logos prices are higher than some of their competitors, and that has to do with outstanding customer service, highly tagged and even cross-tagged resources, and a research environment (for studying the Scriptures and other materials) that is unparalleled

Are some of the resources for research stunning? Absolutely. Are there some brilliantly nice hard working people at Logos? Certainly. I think the Pritchett brothers are great, approachable people who have created a company with a wonderful ethos.

What I feel bad about is if I were to refer a friend who uses a Mac to Logos that I can't say that the product has ever really matured since it's release 2 1/2 years ago. It is no exaggeration for me to say that in general I have at any one point a list of 10 bugs and annoyances that I am hoping will get fixed in the next version. Trouble is, some of those things get fixed and then for some reason a new batch of issues surface. When you spend $600+ dollars for a package, you certainly expect more or at least a time when you can say you have entered into 'trouble free computing'. Maybe the Windows version will, but I'm sad to say that Logos 4 Mac won't be winning any awards with what we have seen so far.

Jack Caviness

I appreciate all of the comments from everybody, even though most of them seemed somewhat bias.

I am biased against people who have never run a business yet who feel qualified to lecture successful business people as to how they should conduct business. Most people have no concept of what it takes to build a successful business, yet they constantly lecture other as to how it should be done. My wife and I said more that one that if we had known ahead of time what it was going to cost, we would never have joined our son in his new business venture. Ten years later, I am pleased we were ignorant enough to jump into the waters.

I said all that to say this, I truly admire the Pritchetts and the way they conduct Logos, and I am truly thankful to God for Logos and the $15k+ I have spent on what I consider fairly priced merchandise. the resources that I consider overpriced for the value I would derive from the, I leave for others.

Please tell me if I'm way off base here ...

Ok; you're way off base. Logos charges an entirely reasonable sum for the high quality product they produce, which simply does not exist elsewhere on the market. Sure you can find a few of the books available free online, but that's not what Logos is charging money for. They are charging money for the extremely highly developed information architecture of their product which makes it literally unique in the market. That's what I want; I don't want to fool around with websites.

Additionally, Logos provides comprehensively indexed and integrated electronic editions of books which would otherwise cost me two to three times as much to purchase (in hardcopy), which are not available anywhere else anywhere near as cheaply, and which would be utterly unwieldy in hardcopy format. The price they charge for these resources is laughably cheap as far as I am concerned.

I share your dismay at the high pricing of the other products to which you refer, but I don't see that as remotely analogous to what Logos charges and provides. In addition, Logos is a reliable source of excellent jobs for US citizens, which should not be overlooked.

Sam West

I have been researching some of the 'Bible Software' packages that are found on the market, and I have to say that Logos appears to be the best available. That being said it is also the most expensive software available! I am also disappointed to see Logos watering down their products by offering nearly ten different packages, especially when the first four software packages are so useless. (I.E. Christian Home, Bible Study Library, Leaders Library, and Original Languages) In my opinion the first package that should be offered is the 'Scholars Library' ... I simply can't see any reason why Logos would be so stingy with their products. Is it just me or would it make a lot more sense for them to release their software as 'Bronze, Silver, and Gold'. (With the option to buy the portfolio) I looked at the comparison chart, and the first four packages are so striped down they don't even seem to be worth the already outrageous price they are listed at. Come on people, you can download a variety of far more complex software like 'Libre Office' completely free, but we can't seem to find reasonably priced Bible software to help us grow in our faith?

I'm sorry to say that something is simply not right with this world. I understand the fact that you have to make a profit in order to keep your feet on the ground, but charging over $600 for a beginners package seems a bit out of line.

I seriously hope you folks will reconsider your pricing strategy, because I am sure you would sell a lot more copies if you weren't asking so much money. It is actually quite easy to find most of the books you offer in the software on eBook websites for free, since most of the books you carry are no longer copy-written. (E.g. The Bibles, Luther, Bunyan, etc) It bothers me to read the section on your website that says 'Over $10,000 in Print!' when that is simply not true. If you have to renegotiate with some of the Authors, please do so, because this is simply ridiculous.

If you have never used Logos 4 how can you judge it. Granted it is expenses but let me tell you there is "no" and i will repeat no bible software on this earth that will even come close to Logos 4 with all its functions. i have been studying the bible for over 40 years and have had several bible programs form the beginning of computers and bible software.

Sam West

I am copying this post of mine from another thread, and posting it here because it's equally relevant.

Here are some JSNTS publications from Sheffield, and their retail print prices.

* Mark's Gospel--Prior or Posterior?: A Reappraisal of the Phenomenon of Order: US$215

* Historiography and Hermeneutics in Jesus Studies: An Examination of the Work of John Dominic Crossan and Ben F. Meyer: US$180

* Jerusalem and the Early Jesus Movement: The Q Community's Attitude toward the Temple: US$180

* The Unity of the Farewell Discourse: The Literary Integrity of John 13:31-16:33: US$180

* The Finger of God and Pneumatology in Luke-Acts: US$170

* Apocalypticism, Anti-Semitism and the Historical Jesus: Subtexts in Criticism: US$145

We're up to US$1,070 already, with just six books. Let's look at the Logos alternative; Library of NT Studies: JSNTS on the Gospels and Acts (16 vols.). For just US$600 you not only receive all of those six books but another ten academic titles from JSNTS.

I bought that collection on pre-pub for US$302.95. Overpriced? I think not.

Joseph Turner

Logos does have some expensive resources, but you have to look at the bigger picture.

You would need to look at a base package and figure up the price for the paper/kindle/etc... books that you would actually use and then compare with the Logos package. I did this a few minutes ago for the first two packages, and they came out to be not worth it. Once I got to the leader's library, it came out closer. When I first started purchasing Logos software, I started out with Gold, which has a much better cost/benefit ratio for me. The commentaries alone make it worth it.

A lot of the resources ARE overpriced, but they usually end up on sale at some point in time. I could not afford to buy the Hermeneia commentaries (not that $1200 is necessarily overpriced), but then they went on sale for 50%, and I jumped on that price. The cost of the volumes that I wanted in paper from Amazon easily amounted to $600, so the other books are just extra. The payment plans also make purchases easier.

I look at Logos as Christians running a business. It is much like Chick-fil-et. They have a great product, and the owners are Christian, but their prices are still pretty high. I can either eat there or somewhere else. I choose to eat there because I like their food. Logos just happens to be selling Bible study software.

The linking between the books in my library also makes them much more valuable than paper/kindle books.

Try a package that you can afford and then return it in the 30 day period if you don't like it.

A lot of the resources ARE overpriced, but they usually end up on sale at some point in time. I could not afford to buy the Hermeneia commentaries (not that $1200 is necessarily overpriced), but then they went on sale for 50%, and I jumped on that price. The cost of the volumes that I wanted easily amounted to $600, so the other books are just extra. The payment plans also make purchases easier.

That sale was when I picked up Hermeneia Logos was selling the Hermeneia series and the Continental Commentary series for US$600. The usual price for the Continental Commentary series was US$600 alone. To pay US$600 for both collections was just ridiculously cheap.

I don't purchase devotional literature and pastoral commentaries from Logos, I typically focus on the scholarly commentary and academic titles, print editions of which typically cost well over US$100 each. Maybe that's why I find Logos consistently cheap; not just affordable, but actually cheap.

Joseph Turner

[That sale was when I picked up Hermeneia Logos was selling the Hermeneia series and the Continental Commentary series for US$600. The usual price for the Continental Commentary series was US$600 alone. To pay US$600 for both collections was just ridiculously cheap.

I don't purchase devotional literature and pastoral commentaries from Logos, I typically focus on the scholarly commentary and academic titles, print editions of which typically cost well over US$100 each. Maybe that's why I find Logos consistently cheap; not just affordable, but actually cheap.

[Y] to everything you said!

Andrew Mitchell

Logos appears to be the best available. That being said it is also the most expensive software available!

Nothing wrong with being the best and the most expensive. [:)]

James Chandler

Greetings Joel,

I'm not sure I agree with your assesment. Quickverse charges $305 for there base package and around $1600 for the top package. And you are paying for the software. Logos software is free and downloadable and has some resources with it.

It is actually quite easy to find most of the books you offer in the software on eBook websites for free, since most of the books you carry are no longer copy-written.

That's not completely correct. The word "most" actually negates this statement. The NIV, NASB, NLT, and NET bibles are still copyrighted, as are many of the commentaries. Many of the Bible Dictionaries and concordances are still copy righted. The Opening Up Commentary series is 30 volumes and at the least $7 a volume which would be roughly 210, that's one third of the entire package. The Bible Expostition is at best $70 and you are already at half of the cost. Collins Thematic Thesaraus is $75. Holman Bible Atlas lists for roughly $30, but can be got for $18. You get the idea and I haven't even touched the surface.

If you're looking for a less expensive alternative, might I suggest e-sword. It's free, but has a suggested donation of $15, I have it on my computer but rarely use it.

In Him,

Jim

Yesterday, I thought these 2 threads were definitely good. But just 'overnight' this one has become a true 'keeper'. And it IS true; I know very few Christians that don't have 'money'. I guess there are some somewhere. Who knows?

Juanita

If you're looking for a less expensive alternative, might I suggest e-sword. It's free, but has a suggested donation of $15, I have it on my computer but rarely use it.

In Him,

Jim

I use e-sword often for quick look ups. Plus, they have an active user community who have made a lot of modules from public domain such as the ICC NT, all of Lange's commentary, several of Nicoll's, Bengal, Horae Homiletica, Neighbour, Exell, Coke, Pulpit Commentary, Heinrich Meyer, Carroll, Drummelow, and more. I do not mind using another platform since they are free.

http://www.biblesupport.com/

And it IS true; I know very few Christians that don't have 'money'. I guess there are some somewhere. Who knows?

I have friends who regularly spend on recreational vehicles, holidays, and skis, double the money I typically spend on Logos in a year. Seriously, skis?

David Thomas

Time to let this thread die!

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George

Please tell me if I'm way off base here ... but I'm sure there are many of you out there who have experienced the same thing.

I am one of those who think that some of the resources are ridiculously expensive. I posted an example about two weeks ago on the very same subject (for example http://www.logos.com/product/4104/a-critical-and-exegetical-commentary-on-numbers only 95$ for a resource that was published in 1905 and can de downloaded for free at archive.org or http://www.logos.com/product/3923/the-works-of-jonathan-edwards for 119). That being said, I don't think the base packages are too expensive since Logos has to pass some of the revenue back to the publishers. You will find some very good bible study tools that are indeed free but as soon as you want to add some more recent Bible translations you have to start paying.

.. charging $150 for a basic Bible software package including no more
than a Few Bibles, References and Commentaries ... most of which you can
find for free on any eBook website!.

Well, you could go to a junkyard and get a bunch of car parts for free or for cheap, but that doesn't mean you will end up with a cheap or good car. People buy Logos because it is a good software solution that helps them do what they need to do more efficiently than by buying cheap books individually. I know for one that Logos helped me many times.

That being said, after spending a lot of money on Logos I will NOT purchase Jonathan Edward's works for 120 (or for half that price either) or anything similarly priced for resources out of copyright. I will instead use PBB and build my own resource. I will spend 95$ for a book out of copyright ONLY when I absolutely need it or I lost the use of my mental faculties.[:)]

Milford Charles Murray

I'm sorry to say that something is simply not right with this world. I understand the fact that you have to make a profit in order to keep your feet on the ground, but charging over $600 for a beginners package seems a bit out of line.

Peace to you, Joel! and ... Always Joy in the Lord!

I have some real problems with your posts, this one .-- which is your first post on the Logos Forums -- .. and the next one ..... Perhaps I am a Logos Fan Boy since I've been using Logos Bible Software since around 1993; however, to me Logos is a great deal as I use it daily.

I did read your first .pdf The Book of Life, enjoyed quite a number of items in the book and appreciate that you shared it with the Logos Forums. I will be pondering the contents for a while, then perhaps coming back with a review. It was a pleasant 'read' -- I have to ponder neuthetic counselling, and come to various conclusions about that

My wife and I bought our Pastor the first Logos package a couple of years ago, then helped him (several times!) upgrade extensively into a much more powerful Logos with lots of bells and whistles. It will take years yet until he can complete what he wants and needs...... But, it's in the works ..... *smile*

He can always expand according to his needs ........

However, just looked again at the Logos First Level -- Home -- and it seems to me to be quite reasonable indeed! I think Logos puts together a good first library.

I'm sorry you are so unhappy, and I wish you well. But, ultimately, I can't see how that possibly can be Logos Bible Software's Fault and see no reason for you to attack them, particulalry in your first two posts -- right out of the clear blue sky! Wow! El Zappo! Lightning down on Logos!

Why are you now so very angry with Logos? Get over it and come back to the Forums and share in our give and take. You'll find this a pretty "cool" place, most of the time! We really do try to help and support one another; and it would be great if you were part of that.

Joel

Peace to you, Joel! and ...    Always Joy in the Lord!

I have some real problems with your posts, this one .-- which is your first post on the Logos Forums -- ..    and the next one .....
Perhaps I am a Logos Fan Boy since I've been using Logos Bible Software since around 1993; however, to me Logos is a great deal as I use it daily.
I did read your first .pdf The Book of Life, enjoyed quite a number of items in the book and appreciate that you shared it with the Logos Forums. I will be pondering the contents for a while, then perhaps coming back with a review. It was a pleasant 'read' -- I have to ponder neuthetic counselling, and come to various conclusions about that
My wife and I bought our Pastor the first Logos package a couple of years ago, then helped him (several times!) upgrade extensively into a much more powerful Logos with lots of bells and whistles. It will take years yet until he can complete what he wants and needs...... But, it's in the works .....    *smile*
He can always expand according to his needs ........
However, just looked again at the Logos First Level -- Home -- and it seems to me to be quite reasonable indeed!
I think Logos puts together a good first library.
I'm sorry you are so unhappy, and I wish you well. But, ultimately, I can't see how that possibly can be Logos Bible Software's Fault and see no reason for you to attack them, particulalry in your first two posts -- right out of the clear blue sky! Wow!
El Zappo! Lightning down on Logos!
Why are you now so very angry with Logos? Get over it and come back to the Forums and share in our give and take. You'll find this a pretty "cool" place, most of the time! We really do try to help and support one another; and it would be great if you were part of that.

Thanks for the kind words
regarding my books
Milford Charles Murray.

I will try my best to explain why I appear to be so 'mad' at Logos.

Perhaps I can illustrate my original point by using Quick Verse/Word Search as an example.

Keep in mind that I do not own Quick Verse, so this is strictly a research based point that I am trying to make.

I don't think there's any question that Quick Verse is Logos' biggest competitor, since it is an equally impressive piece of software.

That being said I believe you get much more value for your money using Quick Verse rather than Logos.

Here's an example to explain what I mean:

Logos offers 79 items as a part of their basic package for $149.99 with the option to upgrade to the next few levels for hundreds of dollars each.

In comparison, Quick Verse offers over 200 items as a part of their basic package for a cost of $129.95 with the option to upgrade to their Gold edition for a mere $79.95. (Which appears to be on par with Logos' Scholars edition) I can't see why there is such a large price difference between the two software packages when they are offering virtually the same resources for each of their 'Deluxe' Packages.

* Edit - I should also add the point that Quick Verse offers a TON of materials on their website for free, such as all of the non-copywritten books I have mentioned as free downloads.
As far as I could see, Logos doesn't offer any books on their site for free.
(Systematic Theology is free on Quick Verse but costs $43.95 on Logos, The Complete Works of Josephus is free on Quickverse but costs $19.95 on Logos, Foxe's Book of Martyrs is available for Free on Quick Verse, but is not even available on the Logos website by itself because you have to purchase it as a set. These are only a few examples ... I could go on and on about the overpriced products on Logos' website, but I'll save you the chatter.

Perhaps some of you know something that I don't know ... but as far as I can see Logos is a massive rip off.

Joseph Turner

Here's an example to explain what I mean:

Logos offers 79 items as a part of their basic package for $149.99 with the option to upgrade to the next few levels for hundreds of dollars each.

In comparison, Quick Verse offers over 200 items as a part of their basic package for a cost of $129.95 with the option to upgrade to their Gold edition for a mere $79.95. (Which appears to be on par with Logos' Scholars edition) I can't see why there is such a large price difference between the two software packages when they are offering virtually the same resources for each of their 'Deluxe' Packages.

* Edit - I should also add the point that Quick Verse offers a TON of materials on their website for free, such as all of the non-copywritten books I have mentioned as free downloads. (Systematic Theology is free on Quick Verse but costs $43.95 on Logos, The Complete Works of Josephus is free on Quickverse but costs $19.95 on Logos, Foxe's Book of Martyrs is available for Free on Quick Verse, but is not even available on the Logos website by itself because you have to purchase it as a set. These are only a few examples ... I could go on and on about the overpriced products on Logos' website. As far as I could see, Logos doesn't offer any books on their site for free.

Perhaps some of you know something that I don't know ... but as far as I can see Logos is a massive rip off.

I noticed on the front page the NIV Application commentary set for Quickverse is considerably more expensive than it is in Logos, but I also noticed that the New American Commentary set is less expensive in Quickverse, but the books that you get in the Quickverse base packages are mostly books that you could get elsewhere free, and Quickverse doesn't offer anywhere near as many newer scholarly commentaries and books as Logos does, which means that it is not going to be nearly as expandable in the long run. I also know that previous versions of QV are not as powerful as Logos. I also don't think that QV has the original language tools that Logos has. It is a highly inferior product.

You can't really make any judgments until you try Logos. You can try any package for 30 days, so you have nothing to lose. You then have every right to say what you want if you don't like it or think it's worth it.

By the way, Logos does offer free books via Vyrso and monthly free specials.

Joel

I noticed on the front page the NIV Application commentary set for Quickverse is considerably more expensive than it is in Logos, but I also noticed that the New American Commentary set is less expensive in Quickverse, but the books that you get in the Quickverse base packages are mostly books that you could get elsewhere free, and Quickverse doesn't offer anywhere near as many newer scholarly commentaries and books as Logos does, which means that it is not going to be nearly as expandable in the long run. I also know that previous versions of QV are not as powerful as Logos. I also don't think that QV has the original language tools that Logos has. It is a highly inferior product.

You can't really make any judgments until you try Logos. You can try any package for 30 days, so you have nothing to lose. You then have every right to say what you want if you don't like it or think it's worth it.

I think there are a lot of great products offered in the Logos package, but to say there aren't any deep scholarly commentaries and books included with Quick Verse is simply not true. In my opinion Quick Verse has a lot of solid resources to offer. Naturally if you are specifically seeking the kind of resources that Logos offers, then I'm sure you will be satisfied with your purchase. But you can't deny the fact that Logos charges a lot more for most of their products. Go through some of the items and I'm sure many of you will be surprised.

[quote]

By the way, Logos does offer free books via Vyrso and monthly free specials.

I stand corrected.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

As far as I could see, Logos doesn't offer any books on their site for free.

Logos has a number of items for $ 0.00 => http://www.logos.com/products/search?start=0&sort=pricelo&pageSize=30 with the Perseus collections totaling 1,743 resources.

http://vyrso.com has monthly specials that include a number of eBooks for $ 0.00 (readable and searchable in Logos 4).

Keep Smiling [:)]

David Thomas

From somebody who did own 3 versions of QV before buying Logos 8 years ago. Logos is a MUCH more powerful program. QV was a Bible Software program but Logos is a Digital Library and the Greek and Hebrew tools are FAR superior. These two programs are not even comparable! If you bought QV AND BibleWorks then you might have a basis for comparing what is included in Logos.

I like to think of it as varying quality of tools. I do minor household repairs so I buy my wrenches at a discount store and the quality is fine for my purpose. If I made my living with my wrenches I would expect to buy a higher quality tool from one of those trucks that markets to mechanics (Snap-on or Matco). I don't fault those who sell or buy higher quality wrenches--they just are not a wise stewardship for my abilities. However, my abilities to wrestle with theology and original languages are such that I demand better tools and the value that I derive from using logos is a good stewardship of my time and finances.

Instead of giving too much credence to somebody who has admittingly never owned EITHER Logos or QV - it may be more prudent to consider the opinions of those who own one or both.

Sam West

I had quick verse also for years also and can tell you that there is no comparison. You can purchase the scholars package for about $300 more and get a tool with features that no other bible program offers in one package.

Graham Owen

My wife and I bought our Pastor the first Logos package a couple of years ago, then helped him (several times!) upgrade extensively into a much more powerful Logos with lots of bells and whistles. It will take years yet until he can complete what he wants and needs...... But, it's in the works ..... *smile*

An often forgotten point as it seems everyone wants to start with one of the big packages, it's taken me 16 years to build a Logos collection of 6,680 resources I started with Level 2 in 1996 and progressed via Pastor's, Silver and Gold to Platinum always adding other items as I went. There have been a few big ticket items along the way but most of my transactions were less than £30 and my average spend has been £12 per week.

The same principle applies to my collection of guitars, amps and music related equipment that has taken me years to acquire people see it and want it all now but it would simply cost too much as a one off purchase... I'd be broke and single if I spent that much money in one go...

I know that if I was new to Logos today I could not afford to start at where I am today, I just don't have the cash but, based on my experience, I'd start the journey so that I can eventually have the library I aspire to.

James Chandler

An often forgotten point as it seems everyone wants to start with one of the big packages,

I completely agree with this, I started with scholar's and added and upgraded since then giving me a nice bible study package.

Personally I think whether an item is too expensive or not is a subjective thing. Joel feels it's to expensive for him. That's fine. I do not. I enjoy what I have and love it for diving into the scriptures.

In Him,

Jim

Graham Owen

Personally I think whether an item is too expensive or not is a subjective thing. Joel feels it's to expensive for him. That's fine.

I agree that this is a very personal issue it just seems to me that the expectations of some new users are simply unrealistic. I looked at some of the alternatives, at a point in time when Logos 4 was frustrating me like crazy, and concluded that to rebuild what I need out of what I have (if that makes sense) would require a similar investment with the only real difference being what I call the filler material. I also concluded that Open Source was not an option for the range of materials I want/need.

I would personally be more inclined to agree if Joel had said that the Logos entry point for serious/prospective scholars is too high! Personally, my development has mapped quite well to the Logos structure and the 'lighter' materials suited me at the beginning. I think that there could be room for a Scholars Essentials with some core Language Tools, a good set of commentaries and very little 'fluff' at the low end but that is a slightly different debate.

Matthew C Jones

An often forgotten point as it seems everyone wants to start with one of the big packages, it's taken me 16 years to build a Logos collection of 6,680 resources

This is the same error young adults are tormented with. A young man leaves home, gets a job and marries his bride. He then tries to acquire in 6 months everything he sees in his Father's and Father-in-Law's estates. He never pauses to consider they have been building their wealth for thirty years or more.

The same principle applies to my collection of guitars, amps and music related equipment that has taken me years to acquire people see it and want it all now but it would simply cost too much as a one off purchase... I'd be broke and single if I spent that much money in one go...

This is true. The key is to convince yourself (and your wife) that the parables of the Pearl of Great Price or the Hidden Treasure is a good approach to de-cluttering your life and focusing on Bible study. I sold off 26 of my guitars and put the money into Logos resources. I have 4 guitars left and find they suffice. I also sold my classic cars, my home studio, and other "obsessions." Employing this principle of "selling all that I had" to purchase Logos resources made it possible to build an immense library in 4 years instead of 16.

My wife is quite different. She started with the Bible Study Library. I upgraded her to Scholar's and she wanted to downgrade back to her original package.

Graham Owen

I sold off 26 of my guitars and put the money into Logos resources.

I am in awe!!! Now to go completely off topic...

How did you decide what to keep?

As my collection grew I did a little pruning and decided I wanted versatility and needed to avoid duplicate sounds, I ended up at 6:

My work horse is a Takamine EN10c, well worn and over used but I love it.

My favourite is a Yamaha AEX1500 designed in conjunction with Martin Taylor, warm Jazz plus a Piezo.

For Nylon its a Yamaha APX10NA, great for handling the solos in a musically conservative Church setting.

Proper rock is a Yamaha MSG Deluxe, twin humbuckers, coil taps, whammy bar, heavy like a Les Paul, shaped like a mini 335. Probably my most versatile guitar, I can almost get a Tele sound out of it at least one that would fool a non guitarist!

When I'm not quite sure what I need its a Yamaha SA800, I love semis, this is the last of my Yamaha's when I was 18 I said I would never own a Yamaha guitar because they were too clinical and sterile, wisdom came with age plus I think they got some better designers.

Finally the single coil stuff is covered by a Fender Squire Tele from 82, classic butterscotch and part of the second batch built in Japan for Fender using genuine US hardware. Its awesome, did not cost a lot and is the only guitar I have that is worth a lot more than I paid for it. Had to rewire it as it had the capacitor fitted for really woolly sounds. Main reason for having a Tele is that I have never found a Strat that could tempt my credit card out of my wallet. I came close 3 times but so far have resisted. Never say never though.

The acid test has always been can Barbara, my wife, hear the difference when I switch guitar. She is very musical, a great singer and objective. This collection pasts the test...

Danny Baskin

I sold off 26 of my guitars and put the money into Logos resources.

Now THAT is commitment!

Anita Van Hal

Amen!

Kelvin Chiu

Just my two cents.

Yes some packages are not really useful. Why don't just download the Logos4 base package and then order whatever you think is useful?

Business is business they need to pay the employees, benefits, tax...etc

I spent couple years to build up my library and almost spent $20000.00

If you cannot afford Logos why don't try Bibleworks, e-sword...etc

E-Sword is pretty good and they have a lot of resources if you go to this webpage:

For example you need to pay around couple hundred dollars on Lange commentary in Logos but e-sword is free for you and also a lot of useful exegetical commentaries.

just my 2-cent

Kelvin

BKMitchell

I started out purchasing separate resources that interested me since they had a super sale on at the time. Eventually I moved to the Original Languages package. While the OL needs some supplementing in grammars and lexica (notably BDAG [don't open your bible study program without it] and HALOT [you could conceivably to with this since BDB is still quite useful]), it really isn't a bad starter package.

I did something similar. I started with the SESB in Libronix, and then moved on to the Logos4 Original Language base package. So, your advice is spot on in my opinion.

Barbara E. Wadel

I so agree that is is both affordable, and the best Bible Software I have ever encountered. There offer so much and give free books monthly. I totally agree with Richard!

Dan Francis

As I said before generally Logos is no more expensive on modern works than other software companies. I accept that one may say many of the public domain items are over priced since production costs are covered in community pricing. But no one is forcing anyone to buy anything.. Most of us seem very happy with Logos. It is not the cheapest, but it without a doubt has the widest array of books out there. It may seem a little bulky and buggy. But it is a fine piece of software, and I am glad I own it.

-Dan

Pastor Dave Thompson

I agree. This prices are ridiculous. I just tried to purchase Believers Bible Commentary to add to my package. Logos wants 40 bucks for it. I can get the hard copy for 22.00 or the Kindle version for 21.00. While I would love to have this resource on the Logos platform, how do you justify charging almost double the price of any other format?

Also the huge differance in price from the Leaders package to the Scholars was prohibitive for me. I understand the need to turn a profit, but Logos really goes over the top with it.

Sogol

I just tried to purchase Believers Bible Commentary to add to my package. Logos wants 40 bucks for it. I can get the hard copy for 22.00 or the Kindle version for 21.00.

I believe that is included in the Jeremiah Lifeworks Library (version 1, not version 2). Logos charges about $50 for it, but there may be older copies floating around.

Erwin Stull, Sr.

I just tried to purchase Believers Bible Commentary to add to my package. Logos wants 40 bucks for it. I can get the hard copy for 22.00 or the Kindle version for 21.00.

I believe that is included in the Jeremiah Lifeworks Library (version 1, not version 2). Logos charges about $50 for it, but there may be older copies floating around.

I purchased the Jeremiah Lifeworks Library last week for $49.99 and it does include the Believer's Bible Commentary. Most often, a much better deal can be experienced through buying bundles or libraries. What I have been doing is to 1st see if the book that I am interested in is included in some bundle, then I look at the bundle and determine the number of other books that I am likely to purchase and either purchase the bundle right away or save it in a wish list for later purchase. In the case of the Jeremiah bundle, I was looking for Vine's Dictionary ($17), but found a number of other books included that I was interested in, so I waited a week or so rather than buy the Vine's Dictionary. Often times, it is not necessary to have a book immediately. :-)

Sogol

I purchased the Jeremiah Lifeworks Library last week for $49.99 and it does include the Believer's Bible Commentary.

It looks like I got my Believer's Bible Commentary through the eBible Expanded Edition. I believe it is also included in the Thomas Nelson Bible Study Library, but I'm not 100% sure.

Josh Hunt

They do have a payment plan. Very simple. $5 interest per month. I pay about $100 a month and have been doing so since I got Logos. I keep buying new sets and will likely be paying logos $100 a month for the rest of my life. this doesn't count individual books I purchase from Vyrso.

JPH

I do agree with previous posts about public domain stuff. I think Logos should discount these works far more, especially since there usually isn't that much tagging involved.

I just don't see the issue with Logos pricing. I just saved a huge amount of money buying 2 volumes for $300 from Logos. Now granted they were somewhat more than the $125 Asherah volume, but probably the more expensive volumes took minutes longer to tag, etc.

Now in all fairness, the outside price for the 2 volumes was far higher and untagged. Cogitating on this, and noticing Logos seems to be having trouble lasso'ing publishers at good prices these days, I suspect the high priced public domain volumes are 'bridge' revenue streams, as Logos tries to convert to a subscription revenue base (similar to JBL etc).

Butters

Forgive me I may be wrong here, but my understanding is that the software is "free" right? Meaning that the content sales support software development. So more goes into the "cost" of a resource than one might think.

On the other hand, the argument that such prices are "un-Christian" is dubious at best. Those who argue this are so completely misunderstanding both Christianity and the world and how it works, I don't even know where to start. Moreover, there is something extremely manipulative about that posture that really smacks of the unsavory. Sorry, not singling anyone out, but someone had to say this.

Mike Childs

I do agree with previous posts about public domain stuff. I think Logos should discount these works far more, especially since there usually isn't that much tagging involved.

If the book is public domain, and there is not much tagging involved, why not just make the Logos version yourself as a personal book? Then it costs nothing. Everybody is happy.

JPH

If the book is public domain, and there is not much tagging involved, why not just make the Logos version yourself as a personal book? Then it costs nothing. Everybody is happy.

Because they usually come in pdf, which is difficult to convert.

Angel Watson

We really aren't talking about one Christian helping another. We are
talking about a Christian business which needs to make a profit in order
to be able to continue in business and offer the products they have
chosen to produce. If they can't pay the help, the rent, the utilities,
etc. and come out with a few $$ left over they won't be around a few
years (or less) down the road.

Stephen Thorp

This thread has become rather long, but I'd like to say two things.

Firstly, I'd like to say that although I think Logos is expensive it's also probably a fair price. One may have to dig deep but you simply can't get a product as good as Logos anywhere else! Perhaps Logos could review their prices and see how they could make it a bit more affordable. The payment plans are a good way forward, but I would like to see the administration charge scrapped. Gift tokens would be good and last year's Christmas Credit was a brilliant idea.

Secondly, there seems in some quarters a little bit of snobbery when it comes to the lower priced packages. Yes, I am biblically trained and a serving pastor, but the Leaders Package has served me exceptionally well over the years and I have naturally added to my resources, but telling me that as a leader and academic I shouldn't have any thing less than Scholars is not only insulting but ridiculous. Naturally, one would like to have the biggest package there is, but ultimately one simply has to go with what one can afford.

tom

Secondly, there seems in some quarters a little bit of snobbery when it comes to the lower priced packages. Yes, I am biblically trained and a serving pastor, but the Leaders Package has served me exceptionally well over the years and I have naturally added to my resources

[Y]I have the OL, and it works great.

I will also say that some people (like myself) do not want the "higher packages" because of theological positions that the "higher packages" contains.

Butters

Secondly, there seems in some quarters a little bit of snobbery when it comes to the lower priced packages. Yes, I am biblically trained and a serving pastor, but the Leaders Package has served me exceptionally well over the years and I have naturally added to my resources
I have the OL, and it works great.
I will also say that some people (like myself) do not want the "higher packages" because of theological positions that the "higher packages" contains.

Well that's interesting. I don't know the packages enough to discern this. Care to expand upon that thought?

Spurgeon

With Logos, you're paying for convenience. If I'm going for actual value, Amazon and WTS offers better deals. Often it's not even close. I actually prefer reading printed books, especially reference ones, but can't beat the convenience of having your whole library on your computer and all that information just one click away.

David Taylor, Jr.

With Logos, you're paying for convenience. If I'm going for actual value, Amazon and WTS offers better deals. Often it's not even close. I actually prefer reading printed books, especially reference ones, but can't beat the convenience of having your whole library on your computer and all that information just one click away.

With all of the datasets and reverse functionality...I would hardly think it fair to say you are paying for convenience. You are paying for years of scholarship and meticulous tagging of resources. You are paying for research plus resources.

Matthew C Jones

With Logos, you're paying for convenience.

The best value you get for your Logos dollar is not mere "convenience" but the fact you are getting a virtual research team that reads your whole library and returns search results in a matter of seconds. This frees up your time to digest the results and find the relative nuggets of gold. Your study time is magnified exponentially. That is more than convenience.

Bill Moore

With Logos, you're paying for convenience.

The best value you get for your Logos dollar is not mere "convenience" but the fact you are getting a virtual research team that reads your whole library and returns search results in a matter of seconds. This frees up your time to digest the results and find the relative nuggets of gold. Your study time is magnified exponentially. That is more than convenience.

Every once in a while I will start looking for some greener grass in
the Bible software pasture. It doesn't take long to return with
happiness to Logos.

Rob Turpin

I would just like to add a few simple thoughts:

1. As much as Logos charges, I must agree that their prices are simply way to high for most average folks (especially Christians) when compared to the resources of the smaller half of their package offering.

2. I remember hearing about Logos Bible software way back before I was even saved, so I'm quite certain that they have not only made enough over the years to "profit", but I'm also pretty sure that they aren't quite as heavily burdened by research and/or software writing as most of you think having had a corner on the market for a long time now.

3. Perhaps they would do better (in quantity of sales at least) by offering Ala cart packages such as 50/100/500/1,000 resources which folks decide on themselves so that we (the customers) get the most for our money.

4. 2 Corintians 2:17 "For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God." I myself wonder just how many Christians will be forced to live out a mediocre Christian life because they must choose more basic or at least more lofty priorities to spend the meager amount of money that pass through their hands on. I simply feel that Logos is exactly like one person on this thread stated, a "business".

Jim Wait

Logos is one of the most valuable assets I own, worth every penny I have spent. They are a quality company, offering a great service, and an awesome product. I pray they don't change. Also hope they make a substantial profit to stay in business for all my lifetime and my children's lifetime. What greater product could we possibly dream of that enables us to continue on our journey out of Egypt to the promised land! Yes they could become a big discounter like walmart or kmart and give up quality for quantity and get their products from china and eventually offer nothing but "junk" and treat their customers like a herd of stupid cattle. Please don't do it Logos. Your product is worth every penny. Anyone who really wants it can find a way to afford it.

Lynden O. Williams

Anyone who really wants it can find a way to afford it.

Logos offers free books, discounts, regular sales and some sort of auction, can't remember the proper name.

Jack Caviness

Yes they could become a big discounter like walmart or kmart and give up quality for quantity and get their products from china and eventually offer nothing but "junk" and treat their customers like a herd of stupid cattle.

[8-|] good analogy [;)]

abondservant

I appreciate all of the comments from everybody, even though most of them seemed somewhat bias. Stick out tongue (Kidding!)

I think the most quoted suggestion 'if you don't like it don't buy it' is probably going to to be the advice I choose to take.

Thanks for the response all the same!

Should point out that last year about this time Bob posted that on average on a good year Logos makes about a 3% profit.

Maybe that's gouging. But I don't think so.

Whoops, didn't check the date stamp. Sorry!!

Mike Childs

I have to disagree. Good books are expensive, whether in electronic format or paper format. Without Logos I would never have had the theological library that I now enjoy. I owe Logos a great debt of gratitude.

Overall, I find Logos books to be less expensive than paper books, and much more valuable.

I am am rather cheap, and if I didn't think Logos was a great value, I would not have invested thousands of dollars over more than twenty years in Logos Bible books and software.

The great thing about our economic system, a product is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it - no more, no less. Apparently, Logos is not over priced, for I am still paying.

There are some books on my shelves now that I bought in seminary 40 years ago with money I earned by selling blood plasma. Those are the most expensive books I ever bought, but to me they are priceless. Books are a lot cheaper now.

Cynthia in Florida

This thread is hysterical...seriously!

After reading it all, I have just two things to say:

First, I don't have much respect for people who post anonymously. Creating fake ID's to post? Seriously? If you can't take ownership of your words, then don't post them!

Second, no one forces anyone to purchase Logos . If you don't want to spend the money, or you can't afford it, don't. I'm sorry to boil all this down to that, but it really is that simple. It doesn't matter what other companies offer, and it doesn't matter what Logos charges for books. It matters if you are willing or able to pay the price. Logos is a company, not a ministry. What they charge is up to them. Whether or not you pay it is up to you. Plain and simple.

That's all I got...

First, I don't have much respect for people who post anonymously. Creating fake ID's to post? Seriously? If you can't take ownership of your words, then don't post them!

While I agree that a person should be willing to take ownership of whatever he posts, I wouldn't attribute a person's use of an alias as a desire to remain anonymous. Sometimes it's a desire to express one's interest in something such as "Unix." Sometimes it's a desire to express a message such as "KeepSmiling4Jesus." I used to use an alias of "Polycarp666" which served two purposes: (1) My interest in the Apostolic Father Polycarp and a bit of humor in attaching the beastly number "666." As with many other things, I wouldn't immediately presume that I know why someone does something in particular.

OK, George. 666 vs Polycarp?? Up till now, I had immense respect for you (especially how every year you seem to have a 39th birthday).

But Polycarp and the beast? I could have understood Papias666. Or even Papias1000. That would have made sense.

And Cynthia ... no offense, but I can guarantee you (since I used to do big data mining) that your text is associated with someone's database of you somewhere, somehow. And will remain for muchisimo years. So, you'd do well to write carefully, for someone's analytical pleasure years from now. In some other country.

EDIT: Oh wait. My apologies. You're posting anonymously. That's good.

Yasmin Stephen

EDIT: Oh wait. My apologies. You're posting anonymously. That's good.

If I was drinking water while reading this, my keyboard would be ruined [:D]

(Another bit of funny (in this thread and around the forum generally) is the way old threads are resurrected just so (like we say in my neck of the woods). I frequent another forum where necro-posting is strongly discouraged (as in moderators get on your case and in your face about it) so it's always a bit weird when it's done so casually here. Quite liberating!)

Matthew C Jones

This thread is hysterical...seriously!

After reading it all,

You read it all? That is impressive.

...Matthew C Jones aka Super.Tramp

Cynthia in Florida

And Cynthia ... no offense, but I can guarantee you (since I used to do big data mining) that your text is associated with someone's database of you somewhere, somehow. And will remain for muchisimo years. So, you'd do well to write carefully, for someone's analytical pleasure years from now. In some other country.

EDIT: Oh wait. My apologies. You're posting anonymously. That's good.

Denise: Call me ignorant but I have absolutely NO idea what you mean. I'm serious. I don't know what "your text is associated with someone's database of you..." What is the implication there?

Further, when I was talking about anonymous posters, I meant people on this site, who have an identification (whatever that is), who switch to a different name to post things anonymously. I didn't mean what people choose to call themselves originally.

And then, the edit? I'm posting anonymously? I honestly have no clue what you are talking about...

Kevin Maples

I have to disagree. Good books are expensive, whether in electronic format or paper format. Without Logos I would never have had the theological library that I now enjoy. I owe Logos a great debt of gratitude.

Overall, I find Logos books to be less expensive than paper books, and much more valuable.

[Y][Y]

Friedrich

This thread is hysterical...seriously!

After reading it all, I have just two things to say:

First, I don't have much respect for people who post anonymously. Creating fake ID's to post? Seriously? If you can't take ownership of your words, then don't post them!

Second, no one forces anyone to purchase Logos . If you don't want to spend the money, or you can't afford it, don't. I'm sorry to boil all this down to that, but it really is that simple. It doesn't matter what other companies offer, and it doesn't matter what Logos charges for books. It matters if you are willing or able to pay the price. Logos is a company, not a ministry. What they charge is up to them. Whether or not you pay it is up to you. Plain and simple.

That's all I got...

you're experiencing the part of these forums that is a little uncontrollable and somewhat perplexing at times: people. Welcome, even though you've been around a little bit, I see!

Gee, Dan ... er Friedrich ... you've changed!

Darrell

[Y]

Friedrich

Gee, Dan ... er Friedrich ... you've changed!

lol, wondering when someone would notice, especially in light of the thread. thanks, I feel somehow important.

I've been wanting to change that a long time. i don't like having my name all over the internet. Friedrich was a nickname by a college buddy, playing off my middle name but Germanicizing it because I used to live there. and NOW you know. thrilling detail and technicolor.

glenn

AMEN brother!

Wild Eagle

Is it Easter? Lots of old threads are resurrected today lol

Daniel Shipton

I agree. The new merger with Wordsearch forced me back to try the free Logos they offered. They haven't transferred part of my library. The use of logos is far less user friendly than Wordsearch. And I can't write my sermon on the program unless I want to pay way too much.

Not only is cost too much but including at least a basic writing program within the document and not merely a verse note should be standard and not part of a higher package, or they should have allowed incoming customers with Wordsearch to come in at the silver level.

It's all about the money. Aquiring Wordsearch is a business move to take out competitive program without improving or offering better cost at all.

JT (alabama24)

They haven't transferred part of my library.

Not everything is happening at once and many resources haven't been yet converted to Logos.

they should have allowed incoming customers with Wordsearch to come in at the silver level.

Why should you get free resources you haven't paid for? Do you mean something about feature sets instead?

It's all about the money.

Well no... and yes. Faithlife is a business which partners with the Church to provide access to bible study materials. It IS about the money in a sense because it costs money to create software. Lifeway hasn't done a great job of staying in business... they had to close all of their stores! Now they are closing down Wordsearch. It is much better for Wordsearch users that FL purchased the business than for it to go belly up altogether.

at least a basic writing program within the document

I am not quite sure what Wordsearch had and how it compares to what FL offers. Can you explain specifically what you are trying to do?

David Taylor, Jr.

The use of logos is far less user friendly than Wordsearch

That's funny, I think Logos is WAY more user friendly than WordSearch ever was.

Not only is cost too much but including at least a basic writing program within the document and not merely a verse note should be standard and not part of a higher package.

Let's be fair, the Notes Tool is much more than a "verse note" editor. If you wanted to, you could write a full fledged sermon in that tool.

or they should have allowed incoming customers with Wordsearch to come in at the silver level.

Why should they have done this? That makes no sense at all. What if a WordSearch user had the free WS version and a few books. Why should they have automatically gotten a silver package in Logos when the rest of us had to pay for it? They are getting all of their WS resources...and you can still use WS for the time being.

It's all about the money. Aquiring Wordsearch is a business move to take out competitive program without improving or offering better cost at all.

I can tell you, having been a Logos user (and WS, and Accordance) for years, I have gotten to know much of the staff, including executive staff, and I know that this is not true at all. Money is important, you cannot make good software without capital. It just can't be done. However, to say it is all about money? No.

One of the biggest reasons, from what I can see, for the acquisition is to be able to offer resources Logos users have been crying for years to have in their libraries in a world-class software instead of, in my opinion, a much inferior software separately.

Also, let's be honest, it is no secret that Lifeway is not doing well having just closed all of their brick and mortar stores. This was going to happen sooner or later and I am glad it was Faithlife.

Bill Moore

I agree. The new merger with Wordsearch forced me back to try the free Logos they offered. They haven't transferred part of my library. The use of logos is far less user friendly than Wordsearch. And I can't write my sermon on the program unless I want to pay way too much.

Not only is cost too much but including at least a basic writing program within the document and not merely a verse note should be standard and not part of a higher package, or they should have allowed incoming customers with Wordsearch to come in at the silver level.

It's all about the money. Aquiring Wordsearch is a business move to take out competitive program without improving or offering better cost at all.

Daniel, I think your critique should be for LifeWay. Why did LifeWay acquire it Wordsearch? What has LifeWay done with it? I doubt that Wordsearch has been that great a competitor to Logos. I have Wordsearch and rarely used it. As far as sermon preparation goes, I’ve never gotten into the Logos word processing or sermon notes or whatever it is that Logos has. I may, but I’ve found Pages to do all I need.

Frankly, I’ve found Logos very much worth the money and am happy to see Wordsearch come over. I think it’s a win for WS users.

Tes

Frankly, I’ve found Logos very much worth the money and am happy to see Wordsearch come over. I think it’s a win for WS users.

Daniel, I think your critique should be for LifeWay. Why did LifeWay acquire it Wordsearch? What has LifeWay done with it?

Lifeway acquired WS in 2011, apparently. Ironically, that was just after Logos began producing the Logos4-8 series. Major, major investment. (Be quiet, Libby!)

I think 'price'y' will always dog Logos, even though the cost per purchased book is quite low. I'm choosey, avoid the packages, go for academic (Brill!), and still end up at $6 per book. Less than my novels on Amazon.

This thread will only die with FL!

Human Bosman

Joel, I 100% agree with you. The new Starter Logos 10 with 30% discount is more than I earn in a month. I have been using Logos since 1997 version 2.1 and religiously worked my but of to upgrade, but as an Evangelist in South Africa I can't afford it anymore. I have been recording typos in various books and even wondered if Logos deserves to know. If the users need to know I might distribute it on the WEB. I sometimes wonder if Bob and team remember those early days. DOS/Windows. Some verses [ESV]. I wonder if 2 Kings 22:7 and Eccles 12:9-14 applies to Faith Life

Here in South Africa, we are some days between 2 and 8 hours without of electricity and thus no internet connections. The exchange rate today is US$1 = ZAR17.44.

I sold my paper library to one of the Seminaries and believe it will be cheaper to do another Diploma in Bible Teaching than invest further in Logos.

At 4327 resources over 25 years I think it is enough as Solomon points out in Eccles 12:13 "The end of the matter; all has been heard. "Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man"

I went back to my paper Bible that my parents gave me on 29/01/1967 and the handful of resources around it. As I work through the Bible with the Holy Spirit leading, I am yet to be lost for words. God always keeps His promises and I experience Col 4:2-6 daily. I sum up my existence and dependance on the LORD with Pray (1 Thessalonians 5:17–21, Ephesians 6:18), Wait (Psalm 27:14 (KJV 1900)), Trust (Proverbs 3:5–6).

I am thankful and peaceful, grace been the reason, yes, my inner being is at peace.

Love

Mike Childs

I do not believe Logos is too expensive. Have you compared the price of paper books of the standard commentaries and language tools? Careful shopping will enable you to get the Logos versions of these tools often at a savings over the paper copies. The Logos versions are far more useful than paper resources to me.

I remember as a young seminary student in the 1970's that I used to sell blood plasma to buy paper copies of Kittell, and other books that I needed. I still have books that I bought with blood on my shelves some 40 years ago.

My income has recently dropped considerably since I retired as a senior pastor. I now have to shop very carefully for books, and I just cannot buy as much. But that doesn't mean that Logos is charging more than is reasonable. Logos has to pay the publisher for the right to sell their books. I remain a satisfied customer. Who knows? I may sell plasma again.

If you really think Logos is overcharging, there are many good resources available for free on the internet.

skypeace

Doing any kind of business here in the USA is expensive. Labor is extremely high and many times due to lower work ethics you don't get what you pay for.

Prior to becoming a minister I worked heavily in sales and I learned as a closer there were many people groups that felt entitled to free or discounted products and that chief among those groups were ministers and police. Argue if you'd like but that proved real.

Later as a tentmaking vocation I built and sold - and mpry niche market were ministers, churches and non-profits. Don't know how I survived and raised a family but for the grace of God.

Bible software has been a blessing in my life and in the kingdom of God. I abhor cheap Bibles, I love leather and Smith sewn, gold and silver gilding, ribbons, etc.

I will pay the price for excellent tools of the trade. I will search for and use every discount, free resource and whatever I can find to make it a more affordable experience, but I believe the producers of Bible software deserve their profits.

From the very first time of opening up four Bibles in the early Windows OS for text comparisons I have been attached to Bible software.

May the Logos producers continue to be blessed in the furtherance of The Gospel.

peace